Baby, You Can Fly My Plane

Question:

First Saudi woman pilot to fly as driving debate rages on RIYADH – While the debate over whether Saudi women should be allowed to drive rages on, Captain Hanadi Hindi will soon become the first woman to fly a plane with the private fleet of a prince. Hindi, 27, is preparing to take to the skies at a time when supporters and opponents of lifting the ban on women’s driving in the conservative kingdom are still fighting it out in the local press. "I never meant to be a pioneer. When I started learning to become a pilot, I did so for my father, who himself had aspired to be a pilot. I then got attached to flying," Hindi said by telephone from her home in the Muslim holy city of Mecca. Prince Al Walid bin Talal’s decision to make Hindi part of his private crew has drawn criticism from some conservative Muslim scholars, who object to any easing of constraints that bar Saudi women from mixing with men other than relatives or traveling without the authorization of a male guardian. But Hindi said the billionaire entrepreneur’s Kingdom Holding Company had also hired her father, Zakariya Hindi, as a legal consultant. He will accompany her on all her trips "so that no one will say that I am traveling without a male relative." Hindi said she is heading to London in about three weeks for a three-month training course before she takes up her job as a pilot for Prince Al-Walid. Kingdom Holding hired Hindi even before she clinched her Commercial Pilot’s Licence and an Instrument Rating (CPL and IR) from the Mideast Aviation Academy in Jordan last month. The company, which runs a worldwide business empire, had offered Hindi a scholarship to carry her through her last year at the Jordanian academy, and Prince Al Walid took out doublespread advertisements in the press to congratulate her on taking her CPL. "I thank God that Prince Al-Walid has given me the opportunity to serve my country and serve His Highness, bearing in mind that he is a member of the royal family," Hindi said. Hindi said that before the prince offered her a 10-year contract, she feared she might not find a job in Saudi Arabia. Her apprehensions were well-grounded, given that women in the Muslim country are still excluded from many professions that would appear less controversial than piloting a plane and are the only women in the world banned from driving a car. The appointed Shura (consultative) Council in May shelved the suggestion of Mohammad Al Zalfa, who cited a host of economic reasons to end the ban, such as the fact that the prohibition has led to the presence of around a million foreign drivers who cost the country 12 billion riyals (3.2 billion dollars) a year.

Response:

oh yaaa .. Baby , Let me welcome you to the exclusive Mile High Club.

Response:

Permalink · Leave a comment
In: Business Consultant

Dallas Morning News Article

Question:

>> The big problem that the airline industry is only beginning to face is > old vs. young labor. Jet Blue has an enormous advantage over the > legacy carriers because its workforce is young and healthy, with low > senority, low pension costs since they’re a long way from retirement, > and low medical costs. As WN is starting to discover, your workforce > won’t remain young forever and your costs will go up. I have the > uncomfortable impression that the only way to run an airline at > today’s prices is to kill the airline every decade or so, hang the > employees out to dry, and start over.

But this is obviously (at least IMHO) not a viable option. People deserve some sort of consistency. Since most U.S. employers have switched from defined benefit pension plans to defined contribution (i.e., 401k) plans over the past 25 years, retirement issues alone aren’t the problem. Normally, you’d expect unions > to address this industry-wide as they have in the auto industry (with > other problems that we won’t address here),

Again, even the auto companies’ plans aren’t viable. Nobody should make 95% of their normal income when they aren’t working. That’s why GM’s and Ford’s bonds have been reduced to junk status. but in the airlines, the > unions are fragmented and poorly led so they’ve been ineffective.

Not so. The unions aren’t really fragmented, but right now they don’t have any leverage. Don’t forget the role the IAM (machinists union) had in the failure of Eastern, and both Braniff and Pan Am, just to name 2, were strong union (mainly Teamster and IAM) shops. The problem is that we disagree on whether airline service is a commodity business. I think it is a public service – you need to have service between point A and point B, and so it is in everybody’s best interest to have a choice of operators. I think the problem is that the low cost carriers cherry pick routes and don’t fly into places like Des Moines or (in your honor, John) Ithaca, so they don’t have to cross-subsidize loser routes with profitable ones. Jeff > Regards, > Dummies", > Information Superhighwayman wanna-be, http://www.johnlevine.com, Mayor > "I shook hands with Senators Dole and Inouye," said Tom, disarmingly. > — > misc.travel.air-industry is a moderated newsgroup. Please mail messages to > policies.

– misc.travel.air-industry is a moderated newsgroup. Please mail messages to

Response:

>> I have the uncomfortable impression that the only way to run an > airline at today’s prices is to kill the airline every decade or > so, hang the employees out to dry, and start over. >But this is obviously (at least IMHO) not a viable option. People >deserve some sort of consistency.

I agree that it stinks for the employees, but they’re not the ones deciding what’s viable here. It’s been fairly standard in the software biz as long as I’ve been in it. >The problem is that we disagree on whether airline service is a >commodity business. I think it is a public service – you need to >have service between point A and point B, and so it is in everybody’s >best interest to have a choice of operators.

That’s the high-cost high-service model. It was nice for the employees while it lasted, wasn’t it? Dereg has had its problems, but it has unambiguously let a whole lot more people take a whole lot more flights for a whole lot less money than would have happened under the CAB. Americans have made it quite clear many times that given a choice between a basic product at a low price and a better product at a higher price, they’ll take the cheap one every time. That’s why Wal-Mart is the biggest company in the country, and Southwest is the most consistently profitable airline. We don’t have to like it but we do have to live with it. > I think the problem is that the low cost carriers cherry pick > routes and don’t fly into places like Des Moines or (in your honor, > John) Ithaca, so they don’t have to cross-subsidize loser routes > with profitable ones.

Why should they? Here in Ithaca we just bribed Northwest the better part of a million dollars to start service here. It both provides reasonable westbound connections that we haven’t had since US dehubbed PIT, and it gives us some insurance in case US dies. (Read about it at http://www.theithacajournal.com/news/stories/20050430/localnews/21243…) I suppose it would be nice for Ithaca if someone else paid the bribe, but I can’t in good conscience see any reason that people in Dallas should pay extra so that more underfilled planes land in Ithaca. We have only ourselves to blame — about 20 years ago there was a sensible proposal to build a regional airport for Binghamton, Elmira, and Ithaca to get a large enough population to attract some real flights. But it failed due to silly turf wars and arguments that nobody would want to drive an extra 30 minutes to the airport, so now if we want a reasonable fare, we drive an extra 90 minutes to ROC or two hours to BUF. Oh, well. — misc.travel.air-industry is a moderated newsgroup. Please mail messages to

Response:

> Personally, I’m not a fan of Southwest because I believe that they have > caused harm to other carriers’ people by forcing the other airlines to cut > costs.

Really? I’m a big fan of Southwest for precisely that reason. That, and they deliver a good product and treat me with respect.

Response:

Look whoever you are, if you must keep posting these messages, please delete rec.travel.cruises from the header… This has nothing to do with cruising and we don’t care to read this .. Thanks – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Cisco troll/netkook/asshole/pedophile/harasser/stalker Michael Voight > / >> Personally, I’m not a fan of Southwest because I believe that they have >> caused harm to other carriers’ people by forcing the other airlines to >> cut >> costs. >Doesn’t this imply that the prices charged by the other carriers were >too high to begin with? > Have you really nothing better to do on a Saturday night than troll > with your usual asinine questions? Most normal people with a family, > a wife and kids, spend Saturday night with them. Opps! That’s normal > people. Certainly doesn’t include you. > What’s the matter? Is Mrs. Voight such a dog that you can’t stand to > be with her? Or is your mail order Russian wife such a fat cow that > you’d rather spend your Saturday evenings in front of your computer > trolling usenet than be in bed with her? > Or …… is it that she finally wised up to your ways and left you??? > If so, GOOD FOR HER! > Who wants to be married to a fifty year old man who spends his whole > life trolling the newsgroups and preying in the "pen pal" groups for > children to have sex with? > About rogue Cisco employee and netkook/troll/usenet flooder > Michael Voight, alias "Merry Christmas", "I Love YOU", "MyNewServer > Comcast", "anon", "anonymous", "nothilaryduff", "Really Me", > "mrtravel", "mrtravelkay", etc. etc. etc. > aliases. > Michael D. Voight > 111 Bean Creek Rd, No. 118 > Scotts Valley, CA 95066-4148 > (831) 438-2485 > He is pedophile Gary Burnore’s partner in crime. Gary Burnore is a > convicted sex offender/child molester and the biggest kook in the > history of the net. > Voight likes to spend his time in the teenage personals newsgroups > trying to pick up underage girls. > The idiot works for Cisco in their Scotts Valley, California > Technical Assistance Center (TAC) and apparently they don’t > keep him busy enough so he has to troll usenet newsgroups all day long > from work. > ***WARNING: THIS IDIOT HAS BEEN CAUGHT FORGING PEOPLE’S IDENTITIES ON > USENET AND CANCELLING THEIR POSTS.*** > If you are one of his victims, or are simply fed up with his > See further below for more Cisco contact information. > He often posts through sbcglobal and prodigy, so forward them to > His main hangouts (besides the teenage personals newsgroups) are > rec.travel.air and alt.visa.us.marriage-based, a sleazy newsgroup > where foreigners wanting to immigrate to the US hook up with losers > like Voight who are willing to marry them for money so they can get > their green card. Voight is a pro at this, handing out daily advice > on how to be a sleazoid like him and sell green cards. > When he isn’t giving out advice on how to commit federal crimes on > alt.visa.us.marriage-based he is usually on rec.travel.air flooding > that newsgroup with trolls and harassing posters and picking retarded > fights with the regular posters there. > He also tends to post a lot in the personals and penpals newsgroups as > well as the support groups for fat people, lonely folks, and for > depression. Obviously after his Russian Internet brides get their > green cards they flee, leaving him lonely and desperate for company. > Maybe that’s why he keeps a P.O. Box at the post office, so he can get > his personals mail there: > Voight, Michael > P.O. Box 67016, > Scotts Valley, CA 95067 > (408) 461-8707 > The idiot is a two-time high school dropout and had to join the > Marines because even the Army rejected him! > He’s got a daughter in Orange County that one of his ex-wives had the > intelligence to take away from him. Lord only knows what could have > happened to her if she had continued to live with the kook. The other > kids he has belong to his previous Russian sleazy brides, and since > they come and go so do the kids. It wouldn’t hurt to let Cisco know > what kind of deviant sexual pervert they have working for them. > Many people have wondered how Cisco ever hired such a psycho. It > cheapens their image and credibility in the corporate world after all. > Well, they didn’t hire him directly, he came as baggage when they > acquired the company he used to work for, TGV Software. His e-mail > All intelligent members of the usenet community have killfiled him, so > he takes great pains to get past their killfiles by rubbing his only > two cerebral neurons together and coming up with gems like: > Some of his other trolling aliases are: > Lately he’s had some gender confusion and has been posting as women, > such as: > Perhaps he’s thinking of getting a sex change (or worse, raping some > teenage girls). > It would be a good idea to call Cisco at 1-800-553-2447 and ask to > speak with a supervisor and explain that you are EXTREMELY unhappy > that this idiot spends his whole day at work playing on the internet > on company time. THEY WILL NOT LIKE THAT. > Then write to corporate headquarters explaining what this idiot is > doing and telling them HOW BAD IT IS FOR THEIR COMPANY IMAGE. They > will LOVE that you brought this to their attention: > Cisco Systems, Inc. > 170 West Tasman Dr. > San Jose, CA 95134 > USA > Then also call them. You should always follow up email or letters > with phone calls. Always ask for supervisors or managers. Try to get > as far up as possible. > (408)526-4000 > (800)553-NETS or > (800)553-6387 > Contact Investor Relations and tell them you are interested in > investing in their company but won’t do so until they get rid of this > asshole who is wasting company resources: > Cisco Systems, Inc. > Investor Relations Department > 170 West Tasman Drive > San Jose, CA 95134-1706 > Phone: (408) 526-8890 > Fax: (408) 526-4545 > Might as well contact customer service too, they LOVE to hear about > this type of stuff: > USA 1 800 553 6387 > Then finally, send letters with copies of his nasty posts addressed > personally to each one of the OFFICERS of the company using the > headquarters address. Believe me, they READ your complaints and are > VERY INTERESTED in them, especially if it’s about one of their > employees. They will take a PERSONAL interest in rooting this ASSHOLE > out of their company: > John Morgridge, Chairman > Phone: (408) 526-8229 > Fax: (408) 526-4100 > John Chambers, President, CEO > Phone: (408) 526-8222 > Fax: (408) 526-4100 > Larry Carter, CFO, Sr. VP-Fin. and Admin., Sec., Director > Phone: (408) 526-8211 > Fax: (408) 526-4100 > Richard Justice, Sr. VP, Worldwide Field Operations > Phone: (408) 527-7371 > Fax: (408) 526-4100 > Brad Boston,Senior Vice President and Chief Information Officer > Phone: (408) 526-7008 > Fax: (408) 526-8220 > Susan Lori Bostrom > Senior Vice President, Internet Business Solutions Group > Phone: (408) 527-5648 > Fax: (408) 526-4100 > Howard S. Charney > Senior Vice President, Office of the President > Phone: (408) 526-8300 > Fax: (408) 526-4100 > Kate DCamp > Senior Vice President, Human Resources > Phone: (408) 527-9530 > Fax: (408) 526-4100 > Gail Morales > Manager, Human Resources, Employment > Phone: (408) 527-6654 > Fax: (408) 526-4100 > Peggy Lynch > Employee Benefits > Phone: (408) 526-8859 > Fax: (408) 527-6080 > Mario Mazzola > Senior Vice President and Chief Development Officer > Phone: (408) 526-5535 > Fax: (408) 526-4100 > Betsy Rafael > Vice President and Corporate Controller > Phone: (408) 525-0164 > Fax: (408) 526-4100 > Email:

Response:

>> Personally, I’m not a fan of Southwest because I believe that they > have caused harm to other carriers’ people by forcing the other > airlines to cut costs. >Doesn’t this imply that the prices charged by the other carriers were >too high to begin with?

Yes, but I think it more means that they were (and to a large extent still are) in the wrong business. It’s not entirely their fault, it’s the business the CAB required them to be in, but it sure is taking a long time to figure out what the airline business really is. The traditional regulated airline business was high-service and high-cost, which is typical of regulated industries. (Look at the pre-breakup AT&T, for the classic example.) Unfortunately for the airlines, plane flights, certainly domestic plane flights, are a commodity, and the difference between the most wonderful trip between Chicago and Dallas on a Boeing or Airbus jet and the worst is pretty small. There are other issues, e.g., does the plane run on time and if not what do they do about it, but no airline has yet managed to do that enough better or worse to make a long-term difference. Southwest’s insight was that the best you can hope for on a plane flight is mediocrity, so they crafted an airline that provides a consistently mediocre experience. It’s never any better, but it’s rarely much worse, and by abandoning the trappings of greatness, they could keep the prices down. The traditional airlines have yet to figure out how to respond. American invented frequent flyer programs in the 1980s which was a stroke of genius, since for the first time there was a reason to take one airline’s $347 flight on a 737 rather than another, and that staved off the final reckoning for over a decade. I do agree that long haul international flights are different, in particular that people will pay several thousand bucks extra for a better seat on a 10 hour flight even though they won’t for anything domestic. (Yes, I know how long EWR-HNL is, but that route appears to exist mostly to burn up frequent flyer miles.) Is it possible to combine a long haul and a short haul airline? None of the US lines is doing very well at it. I suppose maybe BA and LH do, but I don’t know the European market well enough to know how far along their adjustment to low cost carriers is, but I do know from recently planning a trip ITH – GVA – LON – LUX – ITH, that on the intra-European legs that the legacy carriers were all four times as expensive. The pure long haul carriers like Singapore and Emirates seem to be doing great, so maybe that should give us a hint. On the other hand, here in the U.S. things could be a lot worse. The strongest low-cost competitor WN is a real airline, with unionized labor making reasonable wages. In the telecom world, they’re still picking up the pieces from the MCI disaster, which not only wrecked MCI but also wrecked AT&T and a lot of their other competitors. MCI’s very low prices were based on accounting fraud, so the competitors did all sorts of self-destructive things to try to meet what turned out to be MCI’s bogus prices. I think Airtran and Jet Blue show that WN’s model is real, and if you build an airline along the lines of WN, it can work. The big problem that the airline industry is only beginning to face is old vs. young labor. Jet Blue has an enormous advantage over the legacy carriers because its workforce is young and healthy, with low senority, low pension costs since they’re a long way from retirement, and low medical costs. As WN is starting to discover, your workforce won’t remain young forever and your costs will go up. I have the uncomfortable impression that the only way to run an airline at today’s prices is to kill the airline every decade or so, hang the employees out to dry, and start over. Normally, you’d expect unions to address this industry-wide as they have in the auto industry (with other problems that we won’t address here), but in the airlines, the unions are fragmented and poorly led so they’ve been ineffective. Regards, Information Superhighwayman wanna-be, http://www.johnlevine.com, Mayor "I shook hands with Senators Dole and Inouye," said Tom, disarmingly. — misc.travel.air-industry is a moderated newsgroup. Please mail messages to

Response:

Cisco troll/netkook/asshole/pedophile/harasser/stalker Michael Voight / > Personally, I’m not a fan of Southwest because I believe that they have > caused harm to other carriers’ people by forcing the other airlines to cut > costs. >Doesn’t this imply that the prices charged by the other carriers were >too high to begin with?

Have you really nothing better to do on a Saturday night than troll with your usual asinine questions? Most normal people with a family, a wife and kids, spend Saturday night with them. Opps! That’s normal people. Certainly doesn’t include you. What’s the matter? Is Mrs. Voight such a dog that you can’t stand to be with her? Or is your mail order Russian wife such a fat cow that you’d rather spend your Saturday evenings in front of your computer trolling usenet than be in bed with her? Or …… is it that she finally wised up to your ways and left you??? If so, GOOD FOR HER! Who wants to be married to a fifty year old man who spends his whole life trolling the newsgroups and preying in the "pen pal" groups for children to have sex with? About rogue Cisco employee and netkook/troll/usenet flooder Michael Voight, alias "Merry Christmas", "I Love YOU", "MyNewServer Comcast", "anon", "anonymous", "nothilaryduff", "Really Me", "mrtravel", "mrtravelkay", etc. etc. etc. aliases. Michael D. Voight 111 Bean Creek Rd, No. 118 Scotts Valley, CA 95066-4148 (831) 438-2485 He is pedophile Gary Burnore’s partner in crime. Gary Burnore is a convicted sex offender/child molester and the biggest kook in the history of the net. Voight likes to spend his time in the teenage personals newsgroups trying to pick up underage girls. The idiot works for Cisco in their Scotts Valley, California Technical Assistance Center (TAC) and apparently they don’t keep him busy enough so he has to troll usenet newsgroups all day long from work. ***WARNING: THIS IDIOT HAS BEEN CAUGHT FORGING PEOPLE’S IDENTITIES ON USENET AND CANCELLING THEIR POSTS.*** If you are one of his victims, or are simply fed up with his See further below for more Cisco contact information. He often posts through sbcglobal and prodigy, so forward them to His main hangouts (besides the teenage personals newsgroups) are rec.travel.air and alt.visa.us.marriage-based, a sleazy newsgroup where foreigners wanting to immigrate to the US hook up with losers like Voight who are willing to marry them for money so they can get their green card. Voight is a pro at this, handing out daily advice on how to be a sleazoid like him and sell green cards. When he isn’t giving out advice on how to commit federal crimes on alt.visa.us.marriage-based he is usually on rec.travel.air flooding that newsgroup with trolls and harassing posters and picking retarded fights with the regular posters there. He also tends to post a lot in the personals and penpals newsgroups as well as the support groups for fat people, lonely folks, and for depression. Obviously after his Russian Internet brides get their green cards they flee, leaving him lonely and desperate for company. Maybe that’s why he keeps a P.O. Box at the post office, so he can get his personals mail there: Voight, Michael P.O. Box 67016, Scotts Valley, CA 95067 (408) 461-8707 The idiot is a two-time high school dropout and had to join the Marines because even the Army rejected him! He’s got a daughter in Orange County that one of his ex-wives had the intelligence to take away from him. Lord only knows what could have happened to her if she had continued to live with the kook. The other kids he has belong to his previous Russian sleazy brides, and since they come and go so do the kids. It wouldn’t hurt to let Cisco know what kind of deviant sexual pervert they have working for them. Many people have wondered how Cisco ever hired such a psycho. It cheapens their image and credibility in the corporate world after all. Well, they didn’t hire him directly, he came as baggage when they acquired the company he used to work for, TGV Software. His e-mail All intelligent members of the usenet community have killfiled him, so he takes great pains to get past their killfiles by rubbing his only two cerebral neurons together and coming up with gems like: Some of his other trolling aliases are: Lately he’s had some gender confusion and has been posting as women, such as: Perhaps he’s thinking of getting a sex change (or worse, raping some teenage girls). It would be a good idea to call Cisco at 1-800-553-2447 and ask to speak with a supervisor and explain that you are EXTREMELY unhappy that this idiot spends his whole day at work playing on the internet on company time. THEY WILL NOT LIKE THAT. Then write to corporate headquarters explaining what this idiot is doing and telling them HOW BAD IT IS FOR THEIR COMPANY IMAGE. They will LOVE that you brought this to their attention: Cisco Systems, Inc. 170 West Tasman Dr. San Jose, CA 95134 USA Then also call them. You should always follow up email or letters with phone calls. Always ask for supervisors or managers. Try to get as far up as possible. (408)526-4000 (800)553-NETS or (800)553-6387 Contact Investor Relations and tell them you are interested in investing in their company but won’t do so until they get rid of this asshole who is wasting company resources: Cisco Systems, Inc. Investor Relations Department 170 West Tasman Drive San Jose, CA 95134-1706 Phone: (408) 526-8890 Fax: (408) 526-4545 Might as well contact customer service too, they LOVE to hear about this type of stuff: USA 1 800 553 6387 Then finally, send letters with copies of his nasty posts addressed personally to each one of the OFFICERS of the company using the headquarters address. Believe me, they READ your complaints and are VERY INTERESTED in them, especially if it’s about one of their employees. They will take a PERSONAL interest in rooting this ASSHOLE out of their company: John Morgridge, Chairman Phone: (408) 526-8229 Fax: (408) 526-4100 John Chambers, President, CEO Phone: (408) 526-8222 Fax: (408) 526-4100 Larry Carter, CFO, Sr. VP-Fin. and Admin., Sec., Director Phone: (408) 526-8211 Fax: (408) 526-4100 Richard Justice, Sr. VP, Worldwide Field Operations Phone: (408) 527-7371 Fax: (408) 526-4100 Brad Boston,Senior Vice President and Chief Information Officer Phone: (408) 526-7008 Fax: (408) 526-8220 Susan Lori Bostrom Senior Vice President, Internet Business Solutions Group Phone: (408) 527-5648 Fax: (408) 526-4100 Howard S. Charney Senior Vice President, Office of the President Phone: (408) 526-8300 Fax: (408) 526-4100 Kate DCamp Senior Vice President, Human Resources Phone: (408) 527-9530 Fax: (408) 526-4100 Gail Morales Manager, Human Resources, Employment Phone: (408) 527-6654 Fax: (408) 526-4100 Peggy Lynch Employee Benefits Phone: (408) 526-8859 Fax: (408) 527-6080 Mario Mazzola Senior Vice President and Chief Development Officer Phone: (408) 526-5535 Fax: (408) 526-4100 Betsy Rafael Vice President and Corporate Controller Phone: (408) 525-0164 Fax: (408) 526-4100 Claudia Ceniceros Manager, Public Relations Phone: (408) 525-4700 Fax: (408) 526-4100 Write, call, and fax: Cisco Systems, Inc. 170 West Tasman Drive San Jose, California 95134-1706, USA Phone: (408) 526-4000 Fax: (408) 526-4100 (800)553-NETS = (800)553-6387 Have fun!

Response:

> Personally, I’m not a fan of Southwest because I believe that they have > caused harm to other carriers’ people by forcing the other airlines to cut > costs.

Doesn’t this imply that the prices charged by the other carriers were too high to begin with?

Response:

Here in rec.travel.air, > Personally, I’m not a fan of Southwest because I believe that they have > caused harm to other carriers’ people by forcing the other airlines to cut > costs. >Doesn’t this imply that the prices charged by the other carriers were >too high to begin with?

No, that doesn’t necessarily follow. Discount operations are often streamlined and are able to provide a less expensive product (though sometimes with fewer options) due to the lower internal costs they incur when producing that product. McDonald’s produces a much less expensive hamburger than many sit-down restarants do, and it’s a good-enough burger for many people, but the expense McDonald’s incurs per burger is far less than the expense that a traditional restaurant might incur. Most restaurant’s are generally able to compete with fast-food places like McD’s by providing a product which is clearly superior in quality. It’s harder for airlines to do that for a few major reasons. * Most airline passengers have demonstrated that price rather than service is the primary differentiator for them. That wasn’t the case before deregulation when prices between city pairs were fixed by the feds and airlines has to use other means to compete. In this respect, the airline industry is becoming a little bit like the Personal Computer industry, where a more efficient competitor is often able to do a lot of damage to established vendors simply by selling a similar product for less cost. Restaurant customers aren’t nearly as price-conscious, so it’s a lot easier to entice them with a quality product. Restaurants are also a lot less expensive to operate than a major airline, and they can also change quickly to meet new requirements. An airline can’t be as flexible, mostly due to the tremendous expenses involved. * The airline industry is being hit by a combination of factors which keeps many of their fixed costs (fuel, wages) high. This has made recent profit margins pretty thin even for discount carriers. Because of this, it’s harder to easily reduce costs, and that makes it harder to gain ground versus a more efficient competitor. * Much of the infrastructure that traditional airlines have in place (support for international flights, support for a fleet of mixed aircraft types, support for seat reservations and multiple classes of ticket, etc) is something which a carrier like WN doesn’t have to worry about, but it adds to the bottom-line expenses for a traditional airline’s domestic flights all the same. That means that traditional carriers have a higher average cost per flight leg built into the very heart of their operations. In any case, I’ll bet that the fares most people pay on a traditional carrier are still lower than the average cost per passenger to fly a particular flight segment — the first/business-class passengers used to pay a premium for a more flexible ticket and additional convenience which helped to subsidize the lower prices for cattle-class seating, but that isn’t happening as often since more and more businesses are willing to fly with discount carriers in the current economic climate. If a company is forced by its competition to provide their product below production costs, they will suffer economic harm. That’s why we’re seeing so many bankruptcies. It isn’t necessarily because traditional carriers are big, fat, and stupid (though some might be), but more that the nature of the market (and perhaps also of their clientele) has changed quite a bit over the past five years, and it takes a long time (and a lot of expenditure) to change the way an airline operates even in a good economy. New aircraft are very expensive, unions are unwilling to give an inch, and the Feds are constantly adding additional requirements in the name of security that must be met (and that airlines are having to pay for). — -Rich Steiner >>>—> http://www.visi.com/~rsteiner >>>—> Smyrna, GA USA OS/2 + eCS + Linux + Win95 + DOS + PC/GEOS + Executor = PC Hobbyist Heaven! WARNING: I’ve seen FIELDATA FORTRAN V and I know how to use it! The Theorem Theorem: If If, Then Then.

Response:

Who the hell cares about Southwest airlines!! They’re CUT THROAT and don’t deserve to be an airline. It’s all gonna catch up with them and they’re gonna get it in the end. HAHA

Response:

Personally, I’m not a fan of Southwest because I believe that they have caused harm to other carriers’ people by forcing the other airlines to cut costs. But as long as people will choose an airline over another to save $5, they are a force to be reckined (sp?) with and the situation in Dallas is pretty clear – they’ve won every other battle from 1971 to date over Love Field, and if I were a betting man, I would think they’ll probably win this one as well. Jeff

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Who the hell cares about Southwest airlines!! > They’re CUT THROAT and don’t deserve to be an airline. It’s all gonna > catch up with them and they’re gonna get it in the end. HAHA

Response:

Dallas Morning News, Friday, May 6, 2005 "Airline Rallies its Troops" by Vikas Bajaj, Staff Writer Flying its trademark comic wit, Southwest Airlines Co. held a 1960’s style rally Thursday to launch the next phase of its lobbying effort to repeal the Wright amendment. Top Southwest executives, some in tie-dyed shirts, asked hundreds of employees at the company’s Dallas Love Field headquarters to advocate lifting flight restrictions at the airport. Employees were asked to talk with at least two people outside the company every day to boost awareness of the issue. "I want you to spread it all across the United States," Southwest president Colleen Barrett told employees. The centerpiece of Southwest’s campaign is a Web site, www.setlovefree.com . In February, Dallas/Fort Worth International launched a site to fend off Southwest, www.keepdfwstrong.com . Southwest shed its neutrality to the 1979 Wright law in November. Under the federal law, commercial flights to and from Love Field are restricted to routes within Texas and nearby states [Alabama, Arkansas, Kansas, Mississippi, New Mexico, Oklahoma]. "It’s time the citizens of Dallas and the people of this country have the freedom to move around the country, said Ron Ricks, Southwest’s senior vice president for law, airports, and public policy. Kevin Cox, D/FW’s chief operating officer, responded: "They have the freedom to fly at D/FW." He noted that the regional airport has 21 empty gates and is offering Southwest and other airlines free rent for a year and $22 million in incentives. "THey should lay down their arms and work with us and take our offer," Mr. Cox said. Southwest officials said they decided against flying from D/FW because even with the incentrives, the airline would be taking a huge financial risk by moving or splitting its area operations between two airports. Southwest has gotten the most traction with airports and lawmakers outside Texas. Last month, Sen. John Ensign, R-Nev., said he would introduce a bill to eliminate some or all of the Wright restirctions. Majority Leader Bill Frist, R-Tenn.; Sen. Trent Lott, R-Miss.; and Sen. John McCain, R-Ariz. have also signaled interest. Southwest hopes to galvanize consumer sentiment. North Texas travelers who want more airline choices are an obvious target, but so are customers in other Southwest cities, said Gary Kelly, the airline’s chief executive. Customers in Pittsburgh can fly to 37 cities, Mr. Kelly said. "That doesn’t include Dallas for obvious reasons, but it also doesn’t include South Texas because so many of those flights come through Dallas." The Writ amendment prohibits Southwest from swelling connecting tickets as well as nonstop routes. On Thursday, Southwest employees handed out cards bearing the company Web address to passengers at Love Field. The site features the airline’s take on the Wright amendment and an e-mail subscription service. D/FW’s biggest supporters are local Sen. Kay Bailey Hutchison, Sen. John Cornyn, and Rep. Joe Barton, R-Ennis, have said they will fight for the amendment. Many residents in the neighborhoods around Love Field support the law because they are worried about increased noise and traffic. Mr. Kelly said a city master plan already addresses those concerns. (Staff writer Suzanne Marta contributed to this report). — misc.travel.air-industry is a moderated newsgroup. Please mail messages to

Response:

Permalink · Leave a comment
In: Business Plans

OT: Durable Goods Orders Sink Unexpectedly

Question:

Durable Goods Orders Sink Unexpectedly WASHINGTON (Reuters) – New orders for long-lasting U.S.-made goods plunged unexpectedly by 2.8 percent in March, the biggest drop since September 2002, as orders for aircraft fell sharply, the government said on Wednesday. Excluding the volatile transportation category, orders for durable goods — pricey manufactured items meant to last three years or more – sank 1.0 percent, the Commerce Department said. Revisions moved the previous months’ reading lower as well. Commerce adjusted the February durable goods orders down to a 0.2 percent decline from a 0.5 percent increase, and revised the durable goods orders ex-transportation lower to a 0.2 percent drop from unchanged. The report offered a generally gloomy picture for factory and business spending plans. Wall Street economists had expected durable goods orders to climb 0.3 percent overall and 0.5 percent excluding transportation. The total level of new orders was at its lowest since June 2004. Durable goods orders excluding defense fell 3 percent, the biggest drop since September 2002. Civilian aircraft orders slumped 22.7 percent last month after a big rise in February, and defense aircraft orders plummeted 35 percent. The report suggested businesses were scaling back spending plans last month as orders for non-defense capital goods, excluding aircraft, dropped 4.7 percent. That decline follows a 2.5 percent slide in February. Demand for machinery dropped 7.6 percent, orders for fabricated metal products fell 0.1 percent.

Response:

> Durable Goods Orders Sink Unexpectedly > WASHINGTON (Reuters) – New orders for

long-lasting U.S.-made goods > plunged unexpectedly by 2.8 percent in March,

the biggest drop since > September 2002, as orders for aircraft fell

sharply, the government said > on Wednesday. > Excluding the volatile transportation category,

orders for durable goods > — pricey manufactured items meant to last three

years or more – sank > 1.0 percent, the Commerce Department said. > Revisions moved the previous months’ reading

lower as well. Commerce > adjusted the February durable goods orders down

to a 0.2 percent decline > from a 0.5 percent increase, and revised the

durable goods orders > ex-transportation lower to a 0.2 percent drop from unchanged. > The report offered a generally gloomy picture

for factory and business > spending plans. Wall Street economists had

expected durable goods orders > to climb 0.3 percent overall and 0.5 percent

excluding transportation. > The total level of new orders was at its lowest

since June 2004. Durable > goods orders excluding defense fell 3 percent,

the biggest drop since > September 2002. > Civilian aircraft orders slumped 22.7 percent

last month after a big > rise in February, and defense aircraft orders

plummeted 35 percent. > The report suggested businesses were scaling

back spending plans last > month as orders for non-defense capital goods, excluding aircraft, > dropped 4.7 percent. That decline follows a 2.5 percent slide in > February. > Demand for machinery dropped 7.6 percent, orders

for fabricated metal > products fell 0.1 percent.

Aren’t the effects of republican greed just wonderful?

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >Durable Goods Orders Sink Unexpectedly >WASHINGTON (Reuters) – New orders for long-lasting U.S.-made goods >plunged unexpectedly by 2.8 percent in March, the biggest drop since >September 2002, as orders for aircraft fell sharply, the government said >on Wednesday. >Excluding the volatile transportation category, orders for durable goods >– pricey manufactured items meant to last three years or more – sank >1.0 percent, the Commerce Department said. >Revisions moved the previous months’ reading lower as well. Commerce >adjusted the February durable goods orders down to a 0.2 percent decline >from a 0.5 percent increase, and revised the durable goods orders >ex-transportation lower to a 0.2 percent drop from unchanged. >The report offered a generally gloomy picture for factory and business >spending plans. Wall Street economists had expected durable goods orders >to climb 0.3 percent overall and 0.5 percent excluding transportation. >The total level of new orders was at its lowest since June 2004. Durable >goods orders excluding defense fell 3 percent, the biggest drop since >September 2002. >Civilian aircraft orders slumped 22.7 percent last month after a big >rise in February, and defense aircraft orders plummeted 35 percent. >The report suggested businesses were scaling back spending plans last >month as orders for non-defense capital goods, excluding aircraft, >dropped 4.7 percent. That decline follows a 2.5 percent slide in >February. >Demand for machinery dropped 7.6 percent, orders for fabricated metal >products fell 0.1 percent.

Why is this unexpected? Everything’s cheaper in China, so why would economists expect increases if cheaper sources are available? Further proof that economics in a religion and not a science…. TG

Response:

Permalink · Leave a comment
In: Business Plans

FS: Hickok 752A tube tester

Question:

If there are tubes this tube tester can’t put through their paces, from sensitive leakage tests and transconductance readings to matched pairings, I can’t think what they would be. The 752A is toward the upper end of the Hickok line–in fact, it was introduced to replace the 539C, according to Hickok wiz Lewis Padgett. (http://bellsouthpwp.net/p/a/padgett46/laterh.htm) It’s a terrific tester. I’m selling it only because I’ve acquired a KS-15784 L2, the Hickok-made Western Electric version of the Cardmatic line. Condition is a very conservative Good; I believe most would call it Very Good or better. The case has the usual marks and dings. The panel has shiny wear marks around a few of the dials but is otherwise extremely clean. I’ve regularly used it for thorough tube checks, employing less-sophisticated testers to do Go/No Go screening of batches of used tubes. A convenient feature of the 752A is that it can check both sections of dual triodes just by pushing a button–no change of settings is needed. Great if you’ve got lots of 12AX7’s to check! The roll chart works fine. There is a mild "tick" at a certain point in the rotation of the Bias control, as if a turn of the resistance element (it’s a wirewound control) is sticking up just a bit. It’s never been a problem, but I have a spare pot I will include (these are very hard to find because they were unique to Hickok). A pin on one of the miniature tube sockets could use tightening, but again it’s never been a problem. I have full documentation, including settings for many obsolete tubes. $400 plus shipping. Pickup can be arranged, or I will meet the buyer up to 50 miles from Washington, D.C. Avery Potomac, Md.

Response:

IMO if you are primarily interested in testing the popular audio tubes most of the features of these tube testers are wasted. You would be better off to build a test fixture to use your existing bench supplies and display the results on an oscilloscope, i.e. a curve tracer. Another option is a commercial computer controlled unit such as Sofia. A simple transconductance fixture is easy to build when you do not need the complicated switching needed to test thousands of types on hundreds of pinouts over dozens of sockets. Most of you people are not going to test anything but 12A*7’s and 6L6-family power tubes. Tube testers in the hands of non-technicians do more harm than good,anyway. When the TV world went solid state with transistors soldered on PCBs it ran a lot of "tube swappers" out of the business and enforced good technicianship.

Response:

Hey! I’ve got an oscilloscope. Do you have plans, schematics, etc… to build this thing? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->IMO if you are primarily interested in testing the popular audio tubes >most of the features of these tube testers are wasted. You would be >better off to build a test fixture to use your existing >bench supplies and display the results on an oscilloscope, i.e. a curve >tracer. Another option is a commercial computer controlled unit such as >Sofia. >A simple transconductance fixture is easy to build when you do not >need the complicated switching needed to test thousands of types on >hundreds of pinouts over dozens of sockets. Most of you people are not >going to test anything but 12A*7’s and 6L6-family power tubes. >Tube testers in the hands of non-technicians do more harm than >good,anyway. When the TV world went solid state with transistors >soldered on PCBs it ran a lot of "tube swappers" out of the business >and enforced good technicianship.

Response:

Check this sit: http://repairfaq.ece.drexel.edu/sam/semitest.htm Hope it helps. John – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Hey! > I’ve got an oscilloscope. > Do you have plans, schematics, etc… to build this thing? >IMO if you are primarily interested in testing the popular audio tubes >most of the features of these tube testers are wasted. You would be >better off to build a test fixture to use your existing >bench supplies and display the results on an oscilloscope, i.e. a curve >tracer. Another option is a commercial computer controlled unit such as >Sofia. >A simple transconductance fixture is easy to build when you do not >need the complicated switching needed to test thousands of types on >hundreds of pinouts over dozens of sockets. Most of you people are not >going to test anything but 12A*7’s and 6L6-family power tubes. >Tube testers in the hands of non-technicians do more harm than >good,anyway. When the TV world went solid state with transistors >soldered on PCBs it ran a lot of "tube swappers" out of the business >and enforced good technicianship.

Response:

There have been some good articles in TAA/aX over the years.

Response:

Permalink · Leave a comment
In: Business Plans

Help!!! Sail Caribbean Princess Or Holland's Zeiderdam?

Question:

Barbara, I’m cruising on the Zuiderdam in April. One of the reason’s I did not pick the Caribbean Princess was the passenger capcity. I really like Princess , but every complaint I read was about how crowded it was. I was told by my customers that Zuiderdam gives a smooth ride. I am also doing Eastern. Diane Giambalvo Travel Consultant GalaxSea Cruises And Tours East Brunswick, NJ 1-800-357-9393 http://www.galaxseaeb.com http://hometown.aol.com/iv18/myhomepage/business.html

Response:

ZEIDERDAM / very nice == SPA is wonderful == new mattresses are perfect

Response:

We did Eastern Caribbean on Zuiderdam in Nov-Dec 2003. Fantastic ship, great experiences, top service, really nothing to complain about. Two of our dining mates had personal problems on St Martin (they were mugged-robbed) but other than that we have no ill feelings about any of the cruise. We did experience some rough seas, and our day on Half Moon Cay was cool, overcast and windy. St Martin offered the best prices for liquor, cameras and the like, and St Thomas was slightly higher but still better than Nassau. Speaking of Nassau… we did Atlantis and I love it!

Response:

Hi I want to go with my Daughter to the Eastern Caribbean Which Ship is best to go on? She was seasick on the Golden Princess and Zeiderdam is a smaller ship But Caribbean Princess has 500 more people on it which would make it crowded for dining and shows We want to go in May 2005 and need help in deciding Thank you to all who respond Barbara

Response:

> Hi I want to go with my Daughter to the Eastern Caribbean Which Ship is > best to go on? She was seasick on the Golden Princess and Zeiderdam is > a smaller ship But Caribbean Princess has 500 more people on it which > would make it crowded for dining and shows We want to go in May 2005 and > need help in deciding Thank you to all who respond Barbara

I’ll give you a whole different thing to consider. The Eastern Caribbean is all open water. It’s the real Atlantic Ocean. Quite a bit of rough water. Very prone to seasickness. We’ve had some of the worst seas on the Eastern Caribbean – 17 ft. waves and 65 mph winds around St. Maarten, St. Thomas and San Juan, Puerto Rico. That just tends to be a rough area. It’s the real Atlantic Ocean, not the quiet Caribbean Sea. The Western Caribbean, on the other hand has more protected waters. Much of the time the ship is south of Cuba, which acts like a HUGE wind and wave break. The water tends to be ultra calm. Much of the time all you will see is mild ripples of water. No waves or white caps. Even for the path down, the ship travels close to Florida in waters which are protected somewhat by the Bahamas. And once south of Cuba it’s VERY calm. If you’re worried about seasickness, I’d strongly recommend the Western Caribbean. Another consideration, we found the ultra huge Royal Caribbean Voyager class ships to be rather stable in the Western Caribbean. The Celebrity ship Century, though now a bit older than the other ships you’re considering, was also very stable. As were the Carnival Destiny class ships. Some ships are just more stable than others. We found Grand Princess to be rather un-stable. Very prone to be blown around by winds, more so than waves. Here sister ship Caribbean Princess is even higher (more subject to wind). My suggestion: Western Caribbean, on Navigator of the Seas. Ultra huge ship on an ultra calm itinerary. –Tom

Response:

ZEIDERDAM / very nice == SPA is wonderful == new mattresses are perfect

Response:

Permalink · Leave a comment
In: Business Consultant

Help!!! Sail Caribbean Princess Or Holland's Zeiderdam?

Question:

Response:

ZEIDERDAM / very nice == SPA is wonderful == new mattresses are perfect

Response:

ZEIDERDAM / very nice == SPA is wonderful == new mattresses are perfect

Response:

Permalink · Leave a comment
In: Business Consultant

Trip Insurance Prices

Question:

Has anyone used Travelex as a trip insurance carrier? Their rates are considerably lower than others, and I’m wondering why.

Response:

It depends on what you need and what is important for you. Look for things like: preexisting condition wavers; primary vs secondary on luggage, etc; medical coverage (your medicare WON’T cover you if you get hurt outside of the US with very limited exceptions) ; evacuation coverage; carrier bankruptcy; differentials for various age groups (very important if you are younger) and similar comparisons. In general, you may find that Berkleycare (and its subsidiaries) distributed by groups and others is the most expensive; while, in my experience, travelguard has an expensive policy but it does NOT offer preexisting wavers or carrier bankruptcy.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Has anyone used Travelex as a trip insurance carrier? Their rates are > considerably lower than others, and I’m wondering why.

Response:

My Travel Guard policy does cover preexisting conditions. This is the fifth time I’ve used them.

Response:

>Has anyone used Travelex as a trip insurance carrier? Their rates are >considerably lower than others, and I’m wondering why.

You’re probably looking at their TraveLite policy and in many cases it prices out very reasonable, especially if you’re insuring kids as they’ll cover kids under 16 at no additional cost. Although Travelex has been around for years this new plan is less than a year old. Travelex used to be a high priced insurer and I think this plan is their attempt to appeal to a wider range of travelers. Personally, I think the plan is under-priced. And, once they have some claims experience/information I think a premium increase is almost inevitable. But don’t worry that you’re getting a second-class company or policy along with the low rates. They do an excellent job, their underwriter is solid and they’ve been in the business for quite a while. I just think this plan is mis-priced. It can happen when an insurer brings out a plan that’s markedly different fro their existing offerings. CSA and Travel Guard have both brought out new plans in the last couple of years and quickly withdrawn them when it turned out they were money-losers. If the plan meets your needs go for it.

Response:

cruiseinsure. Thanks for your contributions to this group. Your expertise is very much appreciated.

Response:

Yes. I bought it for our upcoming cruise to Alaska next year. I like that kids are covered free on an adult’s policy. It’s backed by Old Republic, a very old and high rated insurance company. They don’t do as much advertising as some travel insurance companies. Lindsay DeeLeeCee asked: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Has anyone used Travelex as a trip insurance carrier? Their rates are >considerably lower than others, and I’m wondering why.

Response:

My Travelex insurance covers pre-existing conditions. I opted to buy their premium policy–Travel Plus. We could have done fine with Travel Lite which is considerably less expensive, but my mother won’t be traveling with us and this will cover if something should happen to her. I’ve used TravelGuard and CSA in the past and both have been fine, but it looks like TravelEx will serve our purpose better this time. Lindsay – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >My Travel Guard policy does cover preexisting conditions. This is the fifth >time I’ve used them.

Response:

>My Travel Guard policy does cover preexisting conditions. This is the fifth >time I’ve used them.

I believe the poster was referring to Travel Guard’s Essential plan which does not cover pre-existing conditions.

Response:

>They don’t do as much advertising as some >travel insurance companies.

That does help to keep premiums down plus they pay a lower commission than some of their competitors which can help also.

Response:

> while, in my experience, travelguard has an expensive policy > but it does NOT offer preexisting wavers or carrier bankruptcy.

I have used travelguard many times and it did include pre-existing conditions. sue

Response:

SHOULD HAVE READ: Travelguard has an INEXPENSIVE policy that DOES NOT offer preexisting condition waver or carrier bankruptcy. Sorry for the bad typing. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> It depends on what you need and what is important for you. > Look for things like: preexisting condition wavers; primary vs secondary > on luggage, etc; medical coverage (your medicare WON’T cover you if you > get hurt outside of the US with very limited exceptions) ; evacuation > coverage; carrier bankruptcy; differentials for various age groups (very > important if you are younger) and similar comparisons. In general, you > may find that Berkleycare (and its subsidiaries) distributed by groups and > others is the most expensive; while, in my experience, travelguard has an > expensive policy but it does NOT offer preexisting wavers or carrier > bankruptcy. > Has anyone used Travelex as a trip insurance carrier? Their rates are > considerably lower than others, and I’m wondering why.

Response:

> SHOULD HAVE READ: > Travelguard has an INEXPENSIVE policy that DOES NOT offer preexisting > condition waver or carrier bankruptcy.

Thanks for clearing that up. sue

Response:

Thanks to all of you who responded to my original question. I purchased the insurance today, and thanks to you, feel very secure that I made the right choice.

Response:

Did you end up going with Travelex? ~Lindsay DeeLeeCee posted: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Thanks to all of you who responded to my original question. I purchased the >insurance today, and thanks to you, feel very secure that I made the right >choice.

Response:

Has anyone used Travelex as a trip insurance carrier? Their rates are considerably lower than others, and I’m wondering why.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Has anyone used Travelex as a trip insurance carrier? Their rates are > considerably lower than others, and I’m wondering why.

Response:

My Travel Guard policy does cover preexisting conditions. This is the fifth time I’ve used them.

Response:

>Has anyone used Travelex as a trip insurance carrier? Their rates are >considerably lower than others, and I’m wondering why.

Response:

cruiseinsure. Thanks for your contributions to this group. Your expertise is very much appreciated.

Response:

>My Travel Guard policy does cover preexisting conditions. This is the fifth >time I’ve used them.

I believe the poster was referring to Travel Guard’s Essential plan which does not cover pre-existing conditions.

Response:

>They don’t do as much advertising as some >travel insurance companies.

That does help to keep premiums down plus they pay a lower commission than some of their competitors which can help also.

Response:

> while, in my experience, travelguard has an expensive policy > but it does NOT offer preexisting wavers or carrier bankruptcy.

I have used travelguard many times and it did include pre-existing conditions. sue

Response:

> SHOULD HAVE READ: > Travelguard has an INEXPENSIVE policy that DOES NOT offer preexisting > condition waver or carrier bankruptcy.

Thanks for clearing that up. sue

Response:

Thanks to all of you who responded to my original question. I purchased the insurance today, and thanks to you, feel very secure that I made the right choice.

Response:

Permalink · Leave a comment
In: Business Plans

Club membership ripoffs

Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Many of you have read and commented on my trip report on the Carnival Spirit > a few days ago. We came back to San Diego so high in spirits that we > attended their sales presentation offering ‘fabulous deals’ on future > cruises, time shares and flights that we actually signed up, paid our dues, > and walked away with a shopping bag full of books, pictures, credentials and > the like. > We though we had bought three cruises. > Guess what. > We get two… at no discount from what we paid for the first one and no > guaranties that we will get an upgrade nor even the cabin we request now, > six months and a year ahead of time. > Do I feel like I’ve been had? > I should be. But it was kind of expected. At least it’s not a major loss nor > gain and the trip was excellent and we are looking forward to the next > two…. even if at full price. > I post this note just so that if you are listening to their sales pitches on > this point thing instead of cash or value, be wary…. ask the right > questions. And there is no way out of these things with 27 pages of > contracts you have to sign, all in their favor. > My travel agent just told me this as she is trying to make the reservations. > I asked point blank if these club things were worth anything. She said there > may be better deals. > Also, Carnival salespeople said the deal was good for any cruise ship. We > tried to get one that went somewhere else and no go. The club memberships > are for the company you sign with. Be careful! > I thought we had signed for three cruises at the price we paid and > conditions told to us by the salespeople. So now I am going to ask my travel > agent to look for deals for a year and a half from now and I don’t care if > it’s not on Carnival. They had a chance to keep us as loyal customers for > life and they blew it with this little fib of theirs. > Are they all like this? > Wayne > www.pueblaprotocol.com

No. Which club is this?

Response:

> Many of you have read and commented on my trip report on the Carnival Spirit > a few days ago. We came back to San Diego so

—-snip— (thanks) Carnival Club

Response:

> Many of you have read and commented on my trip report on the Carnival Spirit > a few days ago. We came back to San Diego so

—snip— To add insult to injury, I asked point blank if my travel agent would get her commission and was told "Absolutely yes" – guess what… no commission. I now have to pay for her services! No problem, I can afford it. But is this the kind of honesty and mutual respect offered by the Carnival sales people? Wayne

Response:

> Are they all like this?

Yup. You cannot do better than with a good travel agent. If you spy what you think is a great deal…immediately call your TA with details and have him/her check it out. We had a great price on a 4 day Carnival last April, naturally they wanted us to book direct…we called our TA…he got us the same price and he got the commission. I am currently getting boatloads of promo stuff from HAL….email, direct-mail, etc…all with "member" specials. But when I look online for HAL pricing, it is the same for anyone as it is for "members". Simply amazing.

Response:

> To add insult to injury, I asked point blank if my travel agent would get > her commission and was told "Absolutely yes" – guess what… no commission. > I now have to pay for her services! > No problem, I can afford it. But is this the kind of honesty and mutual > respect offered by the Carnival sales people? > Wayne

Sorry for the scam. Hard to believe that Carnival would sponsor this or did they? I didn’t look very long but all I could come up with is this website. http://www.carnivaltc.com/ I didn’t see any enrollment info etc. Why not post their and see what happens? Btw, why do you think you should pay your TA? The TA is to be paid by the cruise line.

Response:

Chrissy… The last time I was on the Pride I ran into a section of cruise personnel that were stationed down in the main lobby for the sole purpose of selling a special long term cruise package… as discussed in this thread. They worked me over pretty good… since I have booked a bunch of sailings with them over the past four years. I never did sign the papers… probably cause I was never sober enough to know what the heck I was getting into… and all the contractual B.S. that went along with it. (smile) But they had a special sales team aboard all week long pushing this "promo". To the best of my knowledge they have gotten pretty hard nose about commissions to outside TA’s. If you book direct… they ain’t getting any… so to speak. It use to be… if I booked direct my TA still got some of the action. Speaking of bookings… I’m sailing on the Pride… January 16th. It will be an interesting transition after 60 days on a freighter. Best regards Bill

Response:

> Chrissy… The last time I was on the Pride I ran into a > section of cruise personnel that were stationed down in the > main lobby for the sole purpose of selling a special long term > cruise package… as discussed in this thread. > They worked me over pretty good… since I have booked a > bunch of sailings with them over the past four years. I never > did sign the papers… probably cause I was never sober enough > to know what the heck I was getting into… and all the contractual > B.S. that went along with it. (smile) But they had a special sales > team aboard all week long pushing this "promo".

Seen them before, avoided them like the plague. > To the best of my knowledge they have gotten pretty hard nose about > commissions to outside TA’s. If you book direct… they ain’t > getting any… so to speak.

I haven’t been in that situation but it wouldn’t surprise me, Bill. > It use to be… if I booked direct my TA still got some of the > action.

Yes, varied from line to line but, yes. > Speaking of bookings… I’m sailing on the Pride… January 16th. > It will be an interesting transition after 60 days on a freighter. > Best regards > Bill

Good for you. Mexican Riviera. PV is a place I hear is very pretty. I want to do this with a PCanal out of Florida. Let us know how it goes.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> To add insult to injury, I asked point blank if my travel agent would get > her commission and was told "Absolutely yes" – guess what… no commission. > I now have to pay for her services! > No problem, I can afford it. But is this the kind of honesty and mutual > respect offered by the Carnival sales people? > Wayne > Sorry for the scam. Hard to believe that Carnival would sponsor this or did > they? > I didn’t look very long but all I could come up with is this website. > http://www.carnivaltc.com/ I didn’t see any enrollment info etc. Why not > post their and see what happens? > Btw, why do you think you should pay your TA? The TA is to be paid by the > cruise line.

My TA is having troubles getting to cash my points with Carnival even though it’s a Carnival venture. It’s taking her three and a half days to get people at Carnival to work with her. And I asked, when buying the club membership, if my TA would get her commission. They said absolutely yes. My TA said no, that they are hedging on the point thing saying they can’t issue points to TAs. My TA said this is most likely due to the novelty of the cruise club product which she said has only been launched in a few ships and not fully debugged. Bottom line, I am not getting a penny’s extra value for putting over $3, 300 cash into Carnival’s pocket for use over the next five months and 11 months when I am trying… repeat, trying…. to get bookings. In chatting with Blanca my TA, we have decided that from now on we will look for deals to places my wife and I want to go and be done with it. My recommendation to anybody thinking of doing club memberships is to think twice and research other posters who may have something to ad as this string moves along with more input. The fact that the salespeople said we could use our points on any of the major cruise ships really ticks me off. They don’t. Wayne For some fun in getting to know more about Mexico why not start with the food? Check out my www.pueblaprotocol.com and go down a page where the fun starts. (Please pass this along to anybody you think would enjoy exploring pre conquest food in America) Free, a just for fun site – not selling nor promoting a thing.

Response:

> Are they all like this? > Yup. You cannot do better than with a good travel agent. If you spy what > you think is a great deal…immediately call your TA with details and have > him/her check it out. > We had a great price on a 4 day Carnival last April, naturally they wanted > us to book direct…we called our TA…he got us the same price and he got > the commission. > I am currently getting boatloads of promo stuff from HAL….email, > direct-mail, etc…all with "member" specials. But when I look online for > HAL pricing, it is the same for anyone as it is for "members". Simply > amazing.

It would appear that the Condo time share marketing people are wiggling their way into the cruise ship domain with this shift to points strategy. Our Coronado Beach Resort is still old fashioned week by week exchanges but we get a lot of invitations to free this or free that in order to hear the new point system. We listened, we enjoyed their hospitality, we declined. But were ’suckered’ into Carnival because of the superb time we had on that trip which led us to believe in the quality and honesty of their words. I really hope they wake up to this ‘mistake’ they are making. They lost a loyal customer family because of their little lie. I will now shop till I drop for the best deal and consider Carnival only on price and availability alone. Buyer beware! Wayne

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > My TA is having troubles getting to cash my points with Carnival even though > it’s a Carnival venture. It’s taking her three and a half days to get people > at Carnival to work with her. And I asked, when buying the club membership, > if my TA would get her commission. They said absolutely yes. My TA said no, > that they are hedging on the point thing saying they can’t issue points to > TAs. > My TA said this is most likely due to the novelty of the cruise club product > which she said has only been launched in a few ships and not fully debugged. > Bottom line, I am not getting a penny’s extra value for putting over $3, 300 > cash into Carnival’s pocket for use over the next five months and 11 months > when I am trying… repeat, trying…. to get bookings. > In chatting with Blanca my TA, we have decided that from now on we will look > for deals to places my wife and I want to go and be done with it. My > recommendation to anybody thinking of doing club memberships is to think > twice and research other posters who may have something to ad as this string > moves along with more input. The fact that the salespeople said we could use > our points on any of the major cruise ships really ticks me off. They don’t.

Wayne, your TA really needs to get a set of balls and go to bat for you with Carnival. For all practical purposes, you have been criminally defrauded. Do *not* pay here anything. She can get her commission, like the rest of us TA’s *from* *the* *cruisline* if she is due them. MOF, her taking monies from you may be unethical and possibly illegal. It is her job to get this straightened out if she expects a commission. If none is legally due her, then she can either do you a favor or you will need to jump on Carnival’s back yourself. They have several 800 numbers so it will cost you time but nothing else. Also, let Carnival know you are posting this to RTC. They may not like the sordid publicity. Don’t roll over on this. I don’t care if the system is buggy, that’s their problem to solve. Got get your money back. If they can’t do what they are supposed to, and if they have lied to you, why do business with them at all? Btw, if you paid by credit card, get them involved on a dispute of the charge.

Response:

snip— > Got get your money back. If they can’t do what they are supposed to, and if > they have lied to you, why do business with them at all? > Btw, if you paid by credit card, get them involved on a dispute of the > charge.

—snip— Thank you. You are right. The problem is that I bought points and not a cruise nor anything tangible. And the 27 pages of fine print contract is all in their favor. Not even a Harvard lawyer would dare tackle the issue. The only reason I brought this up in the first place is to caution others who may be considering points and club memberships. Read the fine print! I’ll take my two cruises and chalk this up to learning curve and hope they learn from it as well. Can’t knock a great company for the errors of an obviously outside consulting firm who is probably taking Carnival to the cleaners. Wayne

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > snip— > Got get your money back. If they can’t do what they are supposed to, and > if > they have lied to you, why do business with them at all? > Btw, if you paid by credit card, get them involved on a dispute of the > charge. > —snip— > Thank you. You are right. The problem is that I bought points and not a > cruise nor anything tangible. And the 27 pages of fine print contract is > all > in their favor. Not even a Harvard lawyer would dare tackle the issue. > The only reason I brought this up in the first place is to caution others > who may be considering points and club memberships. Read the fine print! > I’ll take my two cruises and chalk this up to learning curve and hope they > learn from it as well. Can’t knock a great company for the errors of an > obviously outside consulting firm who is probably taking Carnival to the > cleaners. > Wayne

Complain, Complain. You are just like the other jew. Fredstien

Response:

No Fred, I’m not complaining. I’m sharing an experience which is only a grain of sand under my very comfortable mattress with Carnival. Wayne

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> snip— >> Got get your money back. If they can’t do what they are supposed to, and > if >> they have lied to you, why do business with them at all? >> Btw, if you paid by credit card, get them involved on a dispute of the >> charge. > —snip— > Thank you. You are right. The problem is that I bought points and not a > cruise nor anything tangible. And the 27 pages of fine print contract is > all > in their favor. Not even a Harvard lawyer would dare tackle the issue. > The only reason I brought this up in the first place is to caution others > who may be considering points and club memberships. Read the fine print! > I’ll take my two cruises and chalk this up to learning curve and hope they > learn from it as well. Can’t knock a great company for the errors of an > obviously outside consulting firm who is probably taking Carnival to the > cleaners. > Wayne > Complain, Complain. You are just like the other jew. > Fredstien

Response:

>Complain, Complain.

Reading the whole thread, given what has happened to him in this transaction, my reaction is that Wayne is more uncomplaining than 99% of us would be. If anything he should in all rights be complaining more.

Response:

> Reading the whole thread, given what has happened to him in this transaction, > my reaction is that Wayne is more uncomplaining than 99% of us would be. If > anything he should in all rights be complaining more.

Damn straight.

Response:

Thanks!

Response:

Sadly, you truncated the original post which was "Complain, Complain. You are just like the other jew.Fredstien" There is a difference, pal. — DG in Cherry Hill, NJ

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Complain, Complain. > Reading the whole thread, given what has happened to him in this transaction, > my reaction is that Wayne is more uncomplaining than 99% of us would be. If > anything he should in all rights be complaining more.

Response:

Wayne, Guess you know now, but….."The value of something is in inverse proportion to the effort expended to sell it." As the Southern comedian Dave Gardner would have said: "Them’s wise sayin’s!" Stranger

Response:

I would check with the Attorney Generals office of the State in which your Club "documents" are filed. There should be a number of days after you signed the documents where you retain a right of recision. This all sounds like a major rip, but then again that’s why I never travel on Carnival. I tried them twice and swore I’d NEVER give them a third opportunity.

Response:

Many of you have read and commented on my trip report on the Carnival Spirit a few days ago. We came back to San Diego so high in spirits that we attended their sales presentation offering ‘fabulous deals’ on future cruises, time shares and flights that we actually signed up, paid our dues, and walked away with a shopping bag full of books, pictures, credentials and the like. We though we had bought three cruises. Guess what. We get two… at no discount from what we paid for the first one and no guaranties that we will get an upgrade nor even the cabin we request now, six months and a year ahead of time. Do I feel like I’ve been had? I should be. But it was kind of expected. At least it’s not a major loss nor gain and the trip was excellent and we are looking forward to the next two…. even if at full price. I post this note just so that if you are listening to their sales pitches on this point thing instead of cash or value, be wary…. ask the right questions. And there is no way out of these things with 27 pages of contracts you have to sign, all in their favor. My travel agent just told me this as she is trying to make the reservations. I asked point blank if these club things were worth anything. She said there may be better deals. Also, Carnival salespeople said the deal was good for any cruise ship. We tried to get one that went somewhere else and no go. The club memberships are for the company you sign with. Be careful! I thought we had signed for three cruises at the price we paid and conditions told to us by the salespeople. So now I am going to ask my travel agent to look for deals for a year and a half from now and I don’t care if it’s not on Carnival. They had a chance to keep us as loyal customers for life and they blew it with this little fib of theirs. Are they all like this? Wayne www.pueblaprotocol.com

Response:

No. Which club is this?

Response:

> Many of you have read and commented on my trip report on the Carnival Spirit > a few days ago. We came back to San Diego so

—-snip— (thanks) Carnival Club

Response:

> Many of you have read and commented on my trip report on the Carnival Spirit > a few days ago. We came back to San Diego so

Response:

> Are they all like this?

Response:

I haven’t been in that situation but it wouldn’t surprise me, Bill. > It use to be… if I booked direct my TA still got some of the > action.

Good for you. Mexican Riviera. PV is a place I hear is very pretty. I want to do this with a PCanal out of Florida. Let us know how it goes.

Response:

Complain, Complain. You are just like the other jew. Fredstien

Response:

No Fred, I’m not complaining. I’m sharing an experience which is only a grain of sand under my very comfortable mattress with Carnival. Wayne

Response:

>Complain, Complain.

Response:

Damn straight.

Response:

Thanks!

Response:

Sadly, you truncated the original post which was "Complain, Complain. You are just like the other jew.Fredstien" There is a difference, pal. — DG in Cherry Hill, NJ

Response:

Permalink · Leave a comment
In: Business Consulting

Club membership ripoffs

Question:

No. Which club is this?

Response:

> Many of you have read and commented on my trip report on the Carnival Spirit > a few days ago. We came back to San Diego so

—-snip— (thanks) Carnival Club

Response:

> Many of you have read and commented on my trip report on the Carnival Spirit > a few days ago. We came back to San Diego so

Response:

> Are they all like this?

Response:

I haven’t been in that situation but it wouldn’t surprise me, Bill. > It use to be… if I booked direct my TA still got some of the > action.

Good for you. Mexican Riviera. PV is a place I hear is very pretty. I want to do this with a PCanal out of Florida. Let us know how it goes.

Response:

Complain, Complain. You are just like the other jew. Fredstien

Response:

No Fred, I’m not complaining. I’m sharing an experience which is only a grain of sand under my very comfortable mattress with Carnival. Wayne

Response:

>Complain, Complain.

Response:

Damn straight.

Response:

Thanks!

Response:

Sadly, you truncated the original post which was "Complain, Complain. You are just like the other jew.Fredstien" There is a difference, pal. — DG in Cherry Hill, NJ

Response:

No. Which club is this?

Response:

> Many of you have read and commented on my trip report on the Carnival Spirit > a few days ago. We came back to San Diego so

—-snip— (thanks) Carnival Club

Response:

> Many of you have read and commented on my trip report on the Carnival Spirit > a few days ago. We came back to San Diego so

Response:

> Are they all like this?

Response:

I haven’t been in that situation but it wouldn’t surprise me, Bill. > It use to be… if I booked direct my TA still got some of the > action.

Good for you. Mexican Riviera. PV is a place I hear is very pretty. I want to do this with a PCanal out of Florida. Let us know how it goes.

Response:

Complain, Complain. You are just like the other jew. Fredstien

Response:

No Fred, I’m not complaining. I’m sharing an experience which is only a grain of sand under my very comfortable mattress with Carnival. Wayne

Response:

>Complain, Complain.

Response:

Damn straight.

Response:

Thanks!

Response:

Sadly, you truncated the original post which was "Complain, Complain. You are just like the other jew.Fredstien" There is a difference, pal. — DG in Cherry Hill, NJ

Response:

Permalink · Leave a comment
In: Business Consulting

Disappointed-Bermuda and RCCL?

Question:

> I believe Celebrity has the Horizon and Zenith sailing to Bermuda next > summer…I think some sailings depart from Philadelphia and some from > Bayonne.

I know that the Zenith sails from Bayonne and that the Horizon sails from Philly. Just not sure if the Horizon stays in Philly for the entire season. sue

Response:

BAYONNE! Do you actually have to go that rathole to get a cruise?

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->I believe Celebrity has the Horizon and Zenith sailing to Bermuda next > summer…I think some sailings depart from Philadelphia and some from > Bayonne.

Response:

> > I believe Celebrity has the Horizon and Zenith sailing to Bermuda next > summer…I think some sailings depart from Philadelphia and some from > Bayonne. > I know that the Zenith sails from Bayonne and that the Horizon sails > from Philly. Just not sure if the Horizon stays in Philly for the > entire season. > sue

Horizon will be sailing from Norfolk, starting in May or June 2005 Ira J. Scheer

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->>I believe Celebrity has the Horizon and Zenith sailing to Bermuda next >>summer…I think some sailings depart from Philadelphia and some from >>Bayonne. >I know that the Zenith sails from Bayonne and that the Horizon sails >from Philly. Just not sure if the Horizon stays in Philly for the >entire season. >sue > Horizon will be sailing from Norfolk, starting in May or June 2005

Looks like it switches to Philly in July and stays there for the rest of the Bermuda season. sue

Response:

The Bermuda sailing will stay for Summer 2005. Zenith from Port Liberty, NJ and Horizon from Philly. Diane Giambalvo Travel Consultant GalaxSea Cruises And Tours East Brunswick, NJ 1-800-357-9393 http://www.galaxseaeb.com http://hometown.aol.com/iv18/myhomepage/business.html

Response:

I was doing some ‘homework’ planning to return to Bermuda in 2005. It seems like the Empress of the Seas will not be sailing to Bermuda from Bayonne next year? Rather the Voyager will be doing the run on a 5-night itinerary instead? I like the VOS and wouldn’t mind sailing her again, but much prefer the Nordic a.k.a. Empress OTS since she used to dock in Hamilton. Wondering why RCL has made this change? Len…

Response:

> I was doing some ‘homework’ planning to return to Bermuda in 2005. It > seems like the Empress of the Seas will not be sailing to Bermuda from > Bayonne next year? Rather the Voyager will be doing the run on a 5-night > itinerary instead? I like the VOS and wouldn’t mind sailing her again, > but much prefer the Nordic a.k.a. Empress OTS since she used to dock in > Hamilton. Wondering why RCL has made this change?

The problem with the VOS in Bermuda is that it can "only" dock at the Dockyards. She is too big to be able to go to Hamilton or St Georges. Why not try the Zenith, she sails out of Bayonne now and goes to Hamilton and St. George. sue

Response:

I believe Celebrity has the Horizon and Zenith sailing to Bermuda next summer…I think some sailings depart from Philadelphia and some from Bayonne.

Response:

I believe Celebrity has the Horizon and Zenith sailing to Bermuda next summer…I think some sailings depart from Philadelphia and some from Bayonne.

Response:

> I believe Celebrity has the Horizon and Zenith sailing to Bermuda next > summer…I think some sailings depart from Philadelphia and some from > Bayonne.

I know that the Zenith sails from Bayonne and that the Horizon sails from Philly. Just not sure if the Horizon stays in Philly for the entire season. sue

Response:

BAYONNE! Do you actually have to go that rathole to get a cruise?

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->I believe Celebrity has the Horizon and Zenith sailing to Bermuda next > summer…I think some sailings depart from Philadelphia and some from > Bayonne.

Response:

Horizon will be sailing from Norfolk, starting in May or June 2005 Ira J. Scheer

Response:

Looks like it switches to Philly in July and stays there for the rest of the Bermuda season. sue

Response:

Permalink · Leave a comment
In: Business Consultant