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Need advice on carriage of terminally ill passenger from UK to Australia please!
Question:
> > I’m still inclined to think there may be a problem with somebody boarding > a flight knowing there’s a good chance they won’t survive till the end of > it. > I agree with Conal’s comment about medevacs. We see them happening on > Qantas/Garuda occasionally, as Bali is a place where many people find it > necessary to be flown back to Australia for treatment. When the passenger > needs drips and other devices, they usually get a charter jet, but the > walking wounded can fly the regular airlines.
They have also transported patient on drips etc on regular commercial flights. They had to use a row of 4 seats. Not sure of the exact equipments but it has been done. Even patients on mobile ventilators. We have seen patients flown in from New Caledonia in rather critical state. With the depressurization onboard, I wonder how that’ll affect the drip rate… — Weiyun [Remove the obvious for email replies]
Response:
> I’m still inclined to think there may be a problem with somebody boarding > a flight knowing there’s a good chance they won’t survive till the end of > it.
I agree with Conal’s comment about medevacs. We see them happening on Qantas/Garuda occasionally, as Bali is a place where many people find it necessary to be flown back to Australia for treatment. When the passenger needs drips and other devices, they usually get a charter jet, but the walking wounded can fly the regular airlines.
Response:
> They have also transported patient on drips etc on regular commercial > flights. They had to use a row of 4 seats. Not sure of the exact > equipments but it has been done. Even patients on mobile ventilators. > We have seen patients flown in from New Caledonia in rather critical > state.
Agree. My sister went on board KLM with oxygen masks and a stretcher (and also her pediatrician). It was tough enough, financially, getting the hospital fees, air ticket and doctor’s ticket. I’m sure my family couldn’t afford charter jet plane….besides, I don’t think there was any in Ghana at that time. C
Response:
> > I’m still inclined to think there may be a problem with somebody boarding > a flight knowing there’s a good chance they won’t survive till the end of > it. > I agree with Conal’s comment about medevacs. We see them happening on > Qantas/Garuda occasionally, as Bali is a place where many people find it > necessary to be flown back to Australia for treatment. When the passenger > needs drips and other devices, they usually get a charter jet, but the > walking wounded can fly the regular airlines.
That seems reasonable to me as well. However, I’d suggest that the walking wounded are pretty likely to survive till the end of the flight, too 
. Frankly, I find it hard to imagine that somebody a doctor has judged as having literally only hours to live (hours being the largest unit of measurement that their time can be counted in) would actually be in a position to haul him/herself onto an airplane. I also think that there’s a difference between "hours to live" and "hours to live unless…" that makes medevacs a different prospect than Dave’s response to the original poster. I still have reservations over the notion of its being a good thing for somebody with five hours to live to get on a ten hour flight. Deborah Stevenson
Response:
> I would hope that people on the plane would show compassion for a > weak/sick/ill passenger rather than being so self-centered and focus on > thinking "how unfair" it is to them to have to deal with someone who has a > likely chance of dying while in flight. Some times I just shake my head when > thinking how much compassion is lost when people place their "money power" > before anything else. And in any case, it is not "unfair" to have a > sick/dying passenger on the plane. Rather, it would be unfair to deny that > person boarding.
I’m still inclined to think there may be a problem with somebody boarding a flight knowing there’s a good chance they won’t survive till the end of it. If they could sign some kind of "no reroute" order equivalent to a "no code," that would eliminate many of my concerns. (I suspect that that’s not a legally feasible option, really, but the idea is the point.) I don’t even mind sitting next to the late individual. It is, however, quite possible that other people on the plane are not terminal but also ill, or trying to get home to dying loved ones in time, or what have you, as well. They’re not requesting that everybody else on the plane risk an unscheduled reroute for them, and they’re worthy of compassion too. The other people on the plane aren’t less entitled to compassion just for being alive. So what do you think about pregnant women near their due date? Where do they fit into the scheme of what risks of disruption you can ask your fellow passengers to make? Deborah Stevenson
Response:
Below is an extract of a letter from a friend of mine in Australia. He and his girlfriend are looking for some advice with regard to problems concerning a terminally ill relative, and implications of travel in the event of his death en route to Oz from the UK Any advice would be much appreciated: Please post the eventual decision. Most of us would like to know. ..
Response:
>it’s really unfare to the crew But air crews are _trained_ to deal with emergencies such as this, as well as more "routine" matters in dealing with very ill passengers. One of the guys in our radio group was monitoring a SAA flight *years* ago when someone keeled over dead as a doornail. The crew was instructed to put the body in the body bag and haul it to the back of the plane untill the plane landed. It’s _not_ "unfare" to a passenger—you are paying for transport and you can’t specify the kind of person you would like to sit next to, versus a seat/meal/departure time selection. Maryanne
Response:
Hi, Thanks to all of you who have taken the time to reply. I appreciate your comments and apologise for not having replied earlier. Things have been a bit busy of late. Situation at the moment, is that my friend’s girlfriend is coming over to the UK very soon, and hopefully will be returning with her father so that they can all be together in Australia before he dies. We’ve taken on board most things that have been discussed, and hopefully, once this traumatic period is over, I will be able to reply to this Newsgroup and give you an update, one way or another. Thanks again for your time, thoughts and advice. Regards,
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> it’s really unfare to the crew > But air crews are _trained_ to deal with emergencies such as this, as > well as more "routine" matters in dealing with very ill passengers. > One of the guys in our radio group was monitoring a SAA flight *years* > ago when someone keeled over dead as a doornail. The crew was instructed > to put the body in the body bag and haul it to the back of the plane > untill the plane landed. > It’s _not_ "unfare" to a passenger—you are paying for transport and > you can’t specify the kind of person you would like to sit next to, > versus a seat/meal/departure time selection. > Maryanne
I agree with Maryanne. There are situations when airliners are used as ambulances (my sister’s situation was one) to fly from one country to another where adequate medical care is available (Ghana to UK). She simply would have died if we couldn’t get on a plane to get out of Ghana for medical treatment! I would hope that people on the plane would show compassion for a weak/sick/ill passenger rather than being so self-centered and focus on thinking "how unfair" it is to them to have to deal with someone who has a likely chance of dying while in flight. Some times I just shake my head when thinking how much compassion is lost when people place their "money power" before anything else. And in any case, it is not "unfair" to have a sick/dying passenger on the plane. Rather, it would be unfair to deny that person boarding. Conal
Response:
I think that you are quite right in your assessment. Even a "final days" assessment may be reason for not advising the patient to travel. With late stage cancer, patient often die unpredictably. There’s often a fine line to say what is "final days" vs "final hours". It’s not an easy decision in those situations. The airline should be consulted and arrangements made for any potential inflight adverse events. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Re-read my reply. I specifically said "final hours" vs "final days" > vs "final weeks". > I’ll stand my statement that it would be ir-responsible to transport a > patient that is only expected to last "hours". I bet UK to Oz is at > least a full days journey. > If the passenger is expected to pass away during this flight, it’s > really unfare to the crew, the airline, and other passengers. >> Good health is generally not a condition of carriage. Terminally ill >> people fly all the time. You should be able to ask these general >> questions to the airline but most of the answers will depend on the >> specific situation as it occurs. >> I would book a refundable ticket in first or business class and check >> with his doctor right before the trip. I feel it would be >> irresponsible to transport him if he’s really in his final hours. In >> addition it’s a very long flight and might not be very pleasant for >> him. Once again I feel the doctors opinion should dictate your final >> go/no go decision. >Sorry to say, but I felt slightly annoyed by the comment that you would feel >it irresponsible to transport him if he’s really in his final hours. I guess >I’m annoyed because I think even if the man is in his final hours (which >could be several days, a week and a half etc.) it is still his life and if >he wishes to die in Australia, let it be. Reunions and witnessing final >parting moments totally help to make on coming death easier to deal >with–brings closure. You know what I mean? >Conal
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Good health is generally not a condition of carriage. Terminally ill > people fly all the time. You should be able to ask these general > questions to the airline but most of the answers will depend on the > specific situation as it occurs. > I would book a refundable ticket in first or business class and check > with his doctor right before the trip. I feel it would be > irresponsible to transport him if he’s really in his final hours. In > addition it’s a very long flight and might not be very pleasant for > him. Once again I feel the doctors opinion should dictate your final > go/no go decision. > Sorry to say, but I felt slightly annoyed by the comment that you would feel > it irresponsible to transport him if he’s really in his final hours. I guess > I’m annoyed because I think even if the man is in his final hours (which > could be several days, a week and a half etc.) it is still his life and if > he wishes to die in Australia, let it be. Reunions and witnessing final > parting moments totally help to make on coming death easier to deal > with–brings closure. You know what I mean?
I think the issue here is what was meant by "final hours". If it really meant the guy only had hours to live, then the patient will die mid-flight (20+ hour trip) and that would be very uncomfortable for everyone concerned, including the patient. Even if that’s not the situation, the decompression and the stresses of travel may adversely affect such a patient’s condition and bring things to an end early. The present situation also have potential legal issues. As no doctor/s on the arriving end would have seen the patient in life before. No one would be in a position to certify the cause of death. So by default, it’ll be turned into a coroner’s case and an autopsy is certainly not warranted. — Weiyun [Remove the obvious for email replies]
Response:
There are also international medical organizations who routinely transport ill patients. They often use regular commercial flights and send a nurse or doctor for the whole trip. It’ll be expensive to use their service unless it’s covered by travel insurance etc. But the situation here doesn’t sound like it’s warranted. Try contacting them for advice as to the best arrangements. They would have the most experience with international travel. I don’t have their contact info. Try your phone book (medical retrieval etc) or contact your local hospital’s intensive care unit’s senior staffs or ambulance organization. They would have the most dealings with those people. Most average medical staffs wouldn’t have much contact with them. Hope this helps. Weiyun – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Good health is generally not a condition of carriage. Terminally ill > people fly all the time. You should be able to ask these general > questions to the airline but most of the answers will depend on the > specific situation as it occurs. > I would book a refundable ticket in first or business class and check > with his doctor right before the trip. I feel it would be > irresponsible to transport him if he’s really in his final hours. In > addition it’s a very long flight and might not be very pleasant for > him. Once again I feel the doctors opinion should dictate your final > go/no go decision. >Hi, >Below is an extract of a letter from a friend of mine in Australia. >He and his girlfriend are looking for some advice with regard to >problems concerning a terminally ill relative, and implications of >travel in the event of his death en route to Oz from the UK >Any advice would be much appreciated: >Thanks in advance >"I am actually after a bit of advice or at least guess work from >someone who would probably know the day to day workings of a large >airline. >It is a sad story but here goes……my girlfriend’s Dad is from >Dublin, He had all his kids here, when his marriage failed about 8 >years ago he went back home to Ireland. >He has been suffering with Cancer for a long time and to cut a long >story short he is going to die. It is possible he only has a few >months left at most. His last wish is to come to Australia and Die >where his family are. >My girlfriend Plans to fly over in just over a week and help him to >come home to Australia. The family are under no illusions, they know >he may only last a few weeks and have had a family conference to talk >about what should be done. >I fear as do some of them that the Captain of the plane may refuse to >take him if they know just how ill he is. They don’t plan to tell the >Airline other than to ask for a wheel chair and keep a manifest of >what drugs he cannot have etc . >Some of us are also worried about insurance, I feel they wouldn’t >touch him if he was honest and of course won’t cover him if he is not. >What I wanted to know is ( I know this sounds callous but we are being >realistic) If her father did die enroute would the plane make an >emergency landing at the next port of call, or would they wait until >there next scheduled stop? >If they had to make an emergency landing. would my girlfriend and her >father be liable for cost’s incurred by the airline? If they stopped >as normal at say Singapore or Dubai. would they pay just the medical >expenses in the country? would they have to pay another fare to get >them back to Australia? >My girlfriend is taking out travel insurance but it probably won’t >cover someone else taking ill and her electing to stay with them. >I realise anything you say is only going to be a guess, but please >don’t pull any punches. If you have any advice which may help or even >pre warn us what to expect. >I am sure we all hope this letter will become completely academic, but >any forewarning is better than none. >Sorry to hit you with such a request but None of us over here has any >contacts with any airline personnel. Asking the Airline themselves >would probably stop them taking her father onboard in the first place. >Thanks for any advice, etc etc " >Thanks in advance,
Response:
> Good health is generally not a condition of carriage. Terminally ill > people fly all the time. You should be able to ask these general > questions to the airline but most of the answers will depend on the > specific situation as it occurs. > I would book a refundable ticket in first or business class and check > with his doctor right before the trip. I feel it would be > irresponsible to transport him if he’s really in his final hours. In > addition it’s a very long flight and might not be very pleasant for > him. Once again I feel the doctors opinion should dictate your final > go/no go decision.
Sorry to say, but I felt slightly annoyed by the comment that you would feel it irresponsible to transport him if he’s really in his final hours. I guess I’m annoyed because I think even if the man is in his final hours (which could be several days, a week and a half etc.) it is still his life and if he wishes to die in Australia, let it be. Reunions and witnessing final parting moments totally help to make on coming death easier to deal with–brings closure. You know what I mean? Conal
Response:
Re-read my reply. I specifically said "final hours" vs "final days" vs "final weeks". I’ll stand my statement that it would be ir-responsible to transport a patient that is only expected to last "hours". I bet UK to Oz is at least a full days journey. If the passenger is expected to pass away during this flight, it’s really unfare to the crew, the airline, and other passengers. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Good health is generally not a condition of carriage. Terminally ill > people fly all the time. You should be able to ask these general > questions to the airline but most of the answers will depend on the > specific situation as it occurs. > I would book a refundable ticket in first or business class and check > with his doctor right before the trip. I feel it would be > irresponsible to transport him if he’s really in his final hours. In > addition it’s a very long flight and might not be very pleasant for > him. Once again I feel the doctors opinion should dictate your final > go/no go decision. >Sorry to say, but I felt slightly annoyed by the comment that you would feel >it irresponsible to transport him if he’s really in his final hours. I guess >I’m annoyed because I think even if the man is in his final hours (which >could be several days, a week and a half etc.) it is still his life and if >he wishes to die in Australia, let it be. Reunions and witnessing final >parting moments totally help to make on coming death easier to deal >with–brings closure. You know what I mean? >Conal
Response:
Good health is generally not a condition of carriage. Terminally ill people fly all the time. You should be able to ask these general questions to the airline but most of the answers will depend on the specific situation as it occurs. I would book a refundable ticket in first or business class and check with his doctor right before the trip. I feel it would be irresponsible to transport him if he’s really in his final hours. In addition it’s a very long flight and might not be very pleasant for him. Once again I feel the doctors opinion should dictate your final go/no go decision. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >Hi, >Below is an extract of a letter from a friend of mine in Australia. >He and his girlfriend are looking for some advice with regard to >problems concerning a terminally ill relative, and implications of >travel in the event of his death en route to Oz from the UK >Any advice would be much appreciated: >Thanks in advance >"I am actually after a bit of advice or at least guess work from >someone who would probably know the day to day workings of a large >airline. >It is a sad story but here goes……my girlfriend’s Dad is from >Dublin, He had all his kids here, when his marriage failed about 8 >years ago he went back home to Ireland. >He has been suffering with Cancer for a long time and to cut a long >story short he is going to die. It is possible he only has a few >months left at most. His last wish is to come to Australia and Die >where his family are. >My girlfriend Plans to fly over in just over a week and help him to >come home to Australia. The family are under no illusions, they know >he may only last a few weeks and have had a family conference to talk >about what should be done. >I fear as do some of them that the Captain of the plane may refuse to >take him if they know just how ill he is. They don’t plan to tell the >Airline other than to ask for a wheel chair and keep a manifest of >what drugs he cannot have etc . >Some of us are also worried about insurance, I feel they wouldn’t >touch him if he was honest and of course won’t cover him if he is not. >What I wanted to know is ( I know this sounds callous but we are being >realistic) If her father did die enroute would the plane make an >emergency landing at the next port of call, or would they wait until >there next scheduled stop? >If they had to make an emergency landing. would my girlfriend and her >father be liable for cost’s incurred by the airline? If they stopped >as normal at say Singapore or Dubai. would they pay just the medical >expenses in the country? would they have to pay another fare to get >them back to Australia? >My girlfriend is taking out travel insurance but it probably won’t >cover someone else taking ill and her electing to stay with them. >I realise anything you say is only going to be a guess, but please >don’t pull any punches. If you have any advice which may help or even >pre warn us what to expect. >I am sure we all hope this letter will become completely academic, but >any forewarning is better than none. >Sorry to hit you with such a request but None of us over here has any >contacts with any airline personnel. Asking the Airline themselves >would probably stop them taking her father onboard in the first place. >Thanks for any advice, etc etc " >Thanks in advance,
Response:
> Sorry to hit you with such a request but None of us over here has any > contacts with any airline personnel. Asking the Airline themselves > would probably stop them taking her father onboard in the first place. > Thanks for any advice, etc etc " > Thanks in advance,
I don’t have any expert advice but only questions and some ponderings. My understanding is that airlines have been used to transport sick patients and it is done all the time. I have a personal example to tell. My sister at a very young age was having major heart problems leading to difficulty in breathing [1]. Her face was turning black/blue. Being that medical facilities in Ghana were so poor, my parents immediately booked a flight to the U.K. for her. They planned to bring along her Ghanaian pediatrician with them on her flight. In fact, the airline wasn’t the problem. The airline (KLM, thank God for them) were very accommodating. The problem was getting the visa to U.K. A telex was sent from the British High Commission in Ghana to the central office in U.K. asking them to approve of a visa for my sister. No one from the U.K. end replied. I think they waited 24 hours to 48 hours for the reply and the British High Commission in Ghana still didn’t hear anything back from U.K. They had stated in the telex that my sister was in a life-death situation and needed visa approval. We couldn’t wait any longer and the British High Commission realised that too, thankfully. So, instead of waiting for approval from the U.K. end, the High Commission stamped a visa for my sister and my parents and my sister were off to the U.K. My understanding too was that a part of the airplane was fitted to accomodate the necessary life-supporting equipment for my sister. In U.K. an ambulance was waiting for them at the airport (Heathrow I believe). Heh, talk about priority disembarking! This said, I don’t think there’s any need to hide the fact that your girlfriend’s father is terminally ill. In fact, it might help you to tell the airline personnel. Good luck to you in this ordeal and trying moment! Conal [1] I was younger than my sister and so I don’t recall everything that happened, but my parents retold me the story quite recently. Conal Guan-Yow Ho Department of Anthropology Graduate Student University of California, Santa Cruz Office: 337 Social Sciences I USA
Response:
Hi, Below is an extract of a letter from a friend of mine in Australia. He and his girlfriend are looking for some advice with regard to problems concerning a terminally ill relative, and implications of travel in the event of his death en route to Oz from the UK Any advice would be much appreciated: Thanks in advance "I am actually after a bit of advice or at least guess work from someone who would probably know the day to day workings of a large airline. It is a sad story but here goes……my girlfriend’s Dad is from Dublin, He had all his kids here, when his marriage failed about 8 years ago he went back home to Ireland. He has been suffering with Cancer for a long time and to cut a long story short he is going to die. It is possible he only has a few months left at most. His last wish is to come to Australia and Die where his family are. My girlfriend Plans to fly over in just over a week and help him to come home to Australia. The family are under no illusions, they know he may only last a few weeks and have had a family conference to talk about what should be done. I fear as do some of them that the Captain of the plane may refuse to take him if they know just how ill he is. They don’t plan to tell the Airline other than to ask for a wheel chair and keep a manifest of what drugs he cannot have etc . Some of us are also worried about insurance, I feel they wouldn’t touch him if he was honest and of course won’t cover him if he is not. What I wanted to know is ( I know this sounds callous but we are being realistic) If her father did die enroute would the plane make an emergency landing at the next port of call, or would they wait until there next scheduled stop? If they had to make an emergency landing. would my girlfriend and her father be liable for cost’s incurred by the airline? If they stopped as normal at say Singapore or Dubai. would they pay just the medical expenses in the country? would they have to pay another fare to get them back to Australia? My girlfriend is taking out travel insurance but it probably won’t cover someone else taking ill and her electing to stay with them. I realise anything you say is only going to be a guess, but please don’t pull any punches. If you have any advice which may help or even pre warn us what to expect. I am sure we all hope this letter will become completely academic, but any forewarning is better than none. Sorry to hit you with such a request but None of us over here has any contacts with any airline personnel. Asking the Airline themselves would probably stop them taking her father onboard in the first place. Thanks for any advice, etc etc " Thanks in advance,