Business History Books » Business Plans » Is there an opportunity in my "conflict" with eBay?
Is there an opportunity in my "conflict" with eBay?
Question:
> Lee, had you held onto the site that would have created some > controvery, very little, but some. By acquiescing, you’ve removed the > controversy from the issue and thus reduced its news-worthiness. IMO, > you missed your opportunity. > Rob > http://www.LetterRep.com
What opportunity?? If the goal is simply to get one’s name in the news, you could do a whole lot of crazy stuff that will get you bigger headlines. If the goal is to generate interest in and customers for this business, where was the opportunity? — George Demmer Reality Marketing Associates, Coquitlam, BC, Canada Phone: (604) 944-8603 Web site: www.realityassociates.com Everything your company does is marketing. We can help you do it better.
Response:
Lee, Good luck to you. I hope to see other postings from you in the future. Just because this didn’t go as well as you hoped means only that you need to find another route to success. I hope that the people in this group, myself included, are some part of that. Mike
Response:
> It’s become clear to me that I don’t want to drag this out or harrass > eBay. However, the scenario has basically played out as you describe, > simply in an abbreviated form. My question is, how can I write a > press release that will be of interest, given what has transpired?
Lee, had you held onto the site that would have created some controvery, very little, but some. By acquiescing, you’ve removed the controversy from the issue and thus reduced its news-worthiness. IMO, you missed your opportunity. Rob http://www.LetterRep.com
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I think everyone is so bent on making me out to be a sleazebag that > they’re > missing the point. > Lee, > I was the first to respond to your post and I mentioned the issue of > dilution, which is indeed what ebay mentioned in their letter to you. I also > took a look at your site, and low-and-behold, guess what? You are using > ebay’s name to attract business to yourself. > I realy don’t want to hear the "I’m just a poor little businessman" out of > you. Perhaps you were born at night, but you weren’t born last night. > I’m not trying to screw eBay or make them come after me. > But after people started saying that you were in the wrong, you persisted. > "Well, gee, I can’t use ebays name to build my business, so let me see if I > can take advantage of my trespass upon them in another way." Whether you > knew you were breaking the law or not doesn’t matter. Once you found out > that you were, which you did when you went to the other group I told you > about, and after the people in this group pointed out that a) it ain’t right > and b) you don’t have a chance of succeeding in it anyway, you could have > laid it to rest. But no. You continued to argue your point.
Despite the fact that you have already decided what is right and what is wrong, the people in the IP group are still debating the issue. Even in this group, RLN says I missed an opportunity. I don’t understand why you’re talking to me like it’s all so obvious. Maybe to you, it’s obvious, but there are still people with other opinions. With your "poor little businessman" comment, you talk to me like I’m doing something so clearly wrong and that I have no ethics or sense of morality, but I have to disagree. In this newsgroup, I am exploring possible options, but what ACTIONS have I taken that were wrong? Action 1: I used the domain name ebayrelay.com, which, I see now was probably a mistake, albeit an innocent one. You may think it was so clearly wrong that I should be shackled, but I did not mean it that way, and the lawyers are still debating the issue. Action 2: As quickly as I was able to, I registered an alternative domain name, auctionrelay.com. Also, as quickly as I was able to, I got auctionrelay.com up and running. All of this happened in the course of four days, from eBay’s notification to the time when auctionrelay.com was up, which I think is pretty reasonable and responsive. I understand and appreciate your point about my benefitting off of eBay’s name, and I have rectified this. I have not taken any other actions, thus far, and I don’t think it is wrong for me to be exploring alternatives in this forum. I have learned a lot from this interaction, about what makes for decent publicity, etc. I’m not sure why you feel the need to grow increasingly hostile. I’m a very ethical person (In fact, I’m a bozo who did not cash over $10,000 in checks that customers sent me, because I did not feel that my software was worthy of payment at the time.). These questions and probes are honest explorations. It all may seem so obvious to you, because this is your realm. It’s not mine. I’m trying to use every opportunity given to me, but that doesn’t mean I would do anything immoral or unethical. > Straight forward, upside down, backwards and sideways, a number of people > have said "no". > Don’t fault those who answered your question in the first place. Hey, if you > don’t like somebody’s (or anybody’s) answers, so what? Do as you will. > I’m straightening this whole thing out. > As of today, your questionably named site is still up. AND you are STILL > trying to attract business to yourself via leeching off ebay’s name on your > new site. So cut the bull. You haven’t done a thing, and you are still > looking to "advertise for ebay for free" (cough cough) so that you can > market your business by drawing in ebay customers.
How do you figure? ebayrelay.com currently explains the trademark issue and automatically redirects to auctionrelay.com. (I have asked on the IP newsgroup if that is acceptable. I am sure this is just an interim solution, but I didn’t want people who came looking for me to get nothing but a "Not Found" error.) Now you accuse me of attracting business to myself by leeching off ebay’s name…so that I can market my business by drawing in ebay customers. This is where you totally lose me. What on earth are you talking about? How is this wrong? Is PayPal wrong for offering a service to eBay customers (before eBay acquired them)? Is andale.com wrong for offering a service to eBay customers? Auctionwatch.com? Do you realize all of the products and services that have been built around eBay? All of this makes eBay stronger! What is wrong with what I’m doing?! The whole thing about taking unfair advantage of eBay’s trademark, I can understand, but I have no idea what you are taking exception to now. You don’t even know what my business model is or where I’m going, so what’s your problem with what you’ve seen so far? People who have auctions at eBay can use my service to display links to their auctions on their web site. That’s what you’ve seen so far. And your objection to this is…? > And it so happens you spread a little bad press about this group too, no? > Just a little bit, and nothing too harmful, but you were sure to give > m.b.m.m. a little poke in the side over in that legal group.
This is just nonsense. All I said was that the IP newsgroup was kinder and more understanding about this issue than the marketing newsgroup (which I didn’t even name), who was calling me a parasite. So what? That continues to be the case. > But it happened. Why is it wrong > for me to try to get some publicity out of it? > Why do you keep looking to take advantage of ebay? You tried using their > name, and that didn’t work. Now what? What do you think this publicity would > be? It would be one of two things: 1) Ebay picks on little guy, or 2) Little > guy tries screwing ebay.
See, you keep wanting to turn me into a villain, and that’s not the case. I’m not trying to make eBay the bad guy. And I’m not trying to screw eBay. Clearly, I’m barking up the wrong tree here, and this whole annoying thread should soon wither and die. But I don’t think it was wrong of me to come to the experts and ask what opportunity might exist here. If the answer is nothing, then it’s nothing, but why must you beat me up for asking? And the only reason I didn’t drop it after the first response was because I have felt so misunderstood and villified that I have been trying hard to clarify and defend my intentions which are not what I’m being accused of. Besides, new things come along all the time. Every day, somebody comes up with a new way to do something, market something, whatever. It’s not so unreasonable to think that maybe there’s a way to find a story here without it be one of the two scenarios you describe above. Maybe there’s a third and fourth option that don’t fit into the two scenarios you’ve already thought of. That’s the whole idea of creativity, isn’t it? I’ve sincerely learned a lot from this interaction. I mean that in a positive way. But, maybe you all should take something away from this, as well, which is that you could stand to be a little more spontaneous about what is possible. You have so quickly dismissed me and my situation as wrong and hopeless and negative. Perhaps you’ve overlooked an opportunity to do something new and different and positive. I don’t mean to lecture here, but I feel disappointed by the response I got. Has your approach to marketing become so monotonous and rote that you’ve lost your edge? > The problem here is that there is no win-win situation. Whatever publicity > you get would be bad for ebay. That is the problem: not only do you want > something for nothing, you don’t mind screwing ebay a little bit to get it. > That speaks reams about you, and it is the reason that people have started > to treat you poorly.
Again, this is not what I was after. Never, ever, was I trying to screw eBay. I was not after publicity at eBay’s expense. Maybe we can all chalk this up to the imperfect communication afforded by newsgroups, or to our preconceptions about what people are thinking versus typing, but I have been unfairly accused here of things that I never intended. Maybe it speaks reams about you, that virtually the same post has been so differently received in this newsgroup, versus the IP one. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I don’t think that hurts > eBay. > Explain how that works! What the hell puts you in the position to make that > kind of decision for them? Ebay puts a lot of effort into maintaining their > good name, and if they’re not asking for your help, either they don’t need > it or they don’t want it. > And on top of this, ebay has their own marketing and sales force. Why the > hell would they want some small fry, who in his own words is a programmer > not a business person, to go out and "market" for them? > We’re not going for this crap that you are trying to help ebay. You are > trying to help yourself.
Of course I’m trying to help myself. So is eBay. So are you. So is everyone. That doesn’t mean that there is never altruism. And it doesn’t mean that there aren’t symbiotic relationships. When you respond to a newsgroup post, you also get a little free self-promotion out of it, right? Do you really think I’ve made it my mission in life to help eBay market themselves? Obviously, I have a self-interest. That doesn’t mean that my self-interest cannot also benefit eBay. PayPal had their own interests in mind, but their service did wonders for eBay. So much so that eBay bought them. Andale has their own interests in mind, but eBay benefits mightily, as well. This is why I feel so cheated by this interaction. I’m having to
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Response:
> > Now, I realize this is not a legal forum, but, is their claim that cut > and dried? Do I stand to gain anything by putting up a fight? > Is their claim cut and dried, of course not. One of the major misuses of IP > law is the overbroad defense of trademarks. As long as there isn’t a > possible confusion that your site is affiliated or otherwise connected with > Ebay, you should be okay. This is more than a little dicey considering that > you’re in the same general business category
Thank you for acknowledging that there is some gray area here. To be clear, I’m not in the business of offering online auctions. I offer a way to advertise your existing eBay auctions on your web site. > What is cut and dried, however, is that ebay will crush you like a bug > unless you have an angel with deep, deep pockets to pay your legal bills.
Agreed. And I don’t. And it wouldn’t be worth it, anyway. > More to the point, I am wondering if there is an opportunity here. > Whether I try to fight them or whether I quietly acquiesce and move to > a different domain name, is this a chance for some free publicity, in > the form of a news story? If so, what’s the hook, the angle, the > story? Can I make my existence known to a large audience, thanks to > this snafu? > Nobody cares about this kind of story anymore.It’s old hat.
So, again I ask, is there a way to go beyond the obvious and make this a story that has some interest?
Response:
> But you’ve picked the worst examples. Are they the exception that proves > the rule? (I’m not sure I’ve ever really understood that whole idea of an > exception proving a rule, so forget that. 
Exceptions don’t prove that a rule is *valid* — only that it exists. If you accept that something is exceptional, then by implication there is a rule to which that something is an exception.
Response:
> I think everyone is so bent on making me out to be a sleazebag that they’re > missing the point.
Lee, I was the first to respond to your post and I mentioned the issue of dilution, which is indeed what ebay mentioned in their letter to you. I also took a look at your site, and low-and-behold, guess what? You are using ebay’s name to attract business to yourself. I realy don’t want to hear the "I’m just a poor little businessman" out of you. Perhaps you were born at night, but you weren’t born last night. > I’m not trying to screw eBay or make them come after me.
But after people started saying that you were in the wrong, you persisted. "Well, gee, I can’t use ebays name to build my business, so let me see if I can take advantage of my trespass upon them in another way." Whether you knew you were breaking the law or not doesn’t matter. Once you found out that you were, which you did when you went to the other group I told you about, and after the people in this group pointed out that a) it ain’t right and b) you don’t have a chance of succeeding in it anyway, you could have laid it to rest. But no. You continued to argue your point. Straight forward, upside down, backwards and sideways, a number of people have said "no". Don’t fault those who answered your question in the first place. Hey, if you don’t like somebody’s (or anybody’s) answers, so what? Do as you will. > I’m straightening this whole thing out.
As of today, your questionably named site is still up. AND you are STILL trying to attract business to yourself via leeching off ebay’s name on your new site. So cut the bull. You haven’t done a thing, and you are still looking to "advertise for ebay for free" (cough cough) so that you can market your business by drawing in ebay customers. And it so happens you spread a little bad press about this group too, no? Just a little bit, and nothing too harmful, but you were sure to give m.b.m.m. a little poke in the side over in that legal group. > But it happened. Why is it wrong > for me to try to get some publicity out of it?
Why do you keep looking to take advantage of ebay? You tried using their name, and that didn’t work. Now what? What do you think this publicity would be? It would be one of two things: 1) Ebay picks on little guy, or 2) Little guy tries screwing ebay. The problem here is that there is no win-win situation. Whatever publicity you get would be bad for ebay. That is the problem: not only do you want something for nothing, you don’t mind screwing ebay a little bit to get it. That speaks reams about you, and it is the reason that people have started to treat you poorly. > I don’t think that hurts > eBay.
Explain how that works! What the hell puts you in the position to make that kind of decision for them? Ebay puts a lot of effort into maintaining their good name, and if they’re not asking for your help, either they don’t need it or they don’t want it. And on top of this, ebay has their own marketing and sales force. Why the hell would they want some small fry, who in his own words is a programmer not a business person, to go out and "market" for them? We’re not going for this crap that you are trying to help ebay. You are trying to help yourself. > And I’m very surprised that I have to work so hard to sell the idea > to a marketing newsgroup.
Because you are not willing to listen, and because you are either unable or unwilling to look at this situation from another pespective because it simply is not what you *wanted* to hear. In the end, you were wrong, and it is now time to move on with your life. Good luck, though! I really mean that! I suggest you set this one down and let it go. Find a way to build your business on its own merits. This was one "idea" you had and it didn’t work. So what? I suggest you post a thread to this group, about your business, asking the question of "how can I market my business and bring in paying clients". You might be surprised at how things turn around, and how everyone becomes a lot more friendly around here. And by the way, if you’re going to be in business, you have to have a pretty thick skin, and this little discourse was nothing. Good luck! Mike
Response:
>> Not trying to pick on you, Lee, but ignorance of a law is not a > defence for breaking it. I do find it just a bit hard to believe that > as a businessperson, you had no idea what a registered trade mark > (that little "r" in the circle that’s part of their logo isn’t just > decorative) like eBay signified. > But I don’t think this is so obvious that I should have seen it. I’m > a software developer, not a lawyer.
My point — and I think that of others — is that you don’t need to be a lawyer to know that trademarks are not freely available for use. I think this is common knowledge. Perhaps we were trying to give you credit for that. But if you insist that we think of you as incredibly naive instead…well, whatever makes you happy! > What surprises me is the negative response I’ve gotten > here, in a marketing forum. The people in the intellectual property > newsgroup have been much kinder, more forgiving, and willing to accept > this as an honest mistake. I find that surprising. (I’m not singling > you out, George. I just happen to be saying this in my reply to you.)
Lee, you continue to miss the point. We gave you an answer to your question, and it was pretty unanimous: there is no real publicity value to your story. None. Zip. Nada. You just don’t seem to want to hear that answer. Whining that we’re being mean to you isn’t going to change the answer. Maybe you’d rather find some sleazy (or incompetent) marketer that will happily take your money to fire out a bunch of "creative" press releases and promise you that you’re going to be tied up for weeks doing media interviews and that your website will be swamped with people who heard your story and were dying to use your service. But anyone that tells you that is simply lying to get your money. It seems however that you will settle for nothing less — in which case you deserve to be taken for whatever they take you for. Us meanies here in m.b.m.m. are simply being honest with you regarding your publicity potential, and you’re whining and insulting us in other newsgroups for it. > > More platitudes: The only bad publicity is no publicity. Or is > > it, There is no such thing as bad publicity? > Hmmm…this may be the root of your confusion! > Want to hire O.J. or Robert Blake as a spokesperson? Maybe Pee Wee > Herman as your babysitter? How about doing business with (or buying > some shares in) Enron…or WorldCom…or Tyco? > But you’ve picked the worst examples. Are they the exception that > proves the rule? (I’m not sure I’ve ever really understood that whole > idea of an exception proving a rule, so forget that. Still, does > my event compare to these?
Those examples were given to prove that there is such a thing as bad publicity, and more importantly, that the old "no such thing as bad publicity" saw is a pile of crap. Even more relevant to you is that even neutral or good publicity (in the sense that it says nothing bad about you) can still be useless in terms of generating business. Let’s say for the sake of argument that a story runs about your run-in with eBay’s lawyers: so what? Why will that get anyone to use your service? It probably won’t. So you need to get over this notion that any kind of story will help your business. > All on that list received vast amounts of publicity. Still think > there’s no such thing as bad publicity? > These things are news, not publicity.
Publicity IS news. If it isn’t, it doesn’t get picked up. Read the word news as "new or interesting". It may be business news, entertainment news, local news, lifestyle news, or whatever — but if it isn’t news it’s in the garbage. Your story isn’t news. The ONLY POSSIBLE angle would be if you live in a VERY small town with a tiny local paper (the kind that features the church bake sale as it’s front page item). If you live in such a community, your run-in with eBay might get you a three-inch column item (if there happens to be no bake sale, local fair, or a cat up a tree that week): "Local entrepreneur draws ire of eBay lawyers." So there. A marketer has given you a creative angle on your story. Happy now? > They didn’t go looking for the publicity. And they were all already > famous. I’m just looking for a way to emerge from obscurity and get > my name out there. Not at eBay’s expense. Why can’t I get > http://www.auctionrelay.com some exposure as a result of this "brush > with the law"?
Becaue it simply isn’t interesting to anyone else but you!!!!! What’s in it for the reader? Why should they care? And it is more a brush with your own naivete than a brush with the law. The "law" just rubbed your nose in it. Do you really want to publicize that? Many readers of that hypothetical story would simply lose confidence in your business abilities as a result of hearing that (a bit like it has in this newsgroup). > Maybe you’ve misunderstood me. I was not looking for a way to fight > them (once I was convinced that use of ebayrelay.com was actually a > violation of their trademark rights). I was looking for a way to > gracefully change names and get a little press in the process. Yes, I > want to build the service on its own merits.
No. You still don’t. You want to build it on your "brush" with eBay! As Mike suggested, if you would simply stop going on about this dead-end angle and post a question explaining the details of your service and asking how to promote auctionrelay.com, you would probably find a much better reaction. Going on and on about this whole thing is simply wearing out your allotment of goodwill (with me at any rate). > I think everyone is so bent on making me out to be a sleazebag that > they’re missing the point.
It seems to be you who are missing the point. Repeatedly. > I’m not trying to screw eBay or make them come after me. I’m > straightening this whole thing out. But it happened. Why is it wrong > for me to try to get some publicity out of it? I don’t think that > hurts eBay. And I’m very surprised that I have to work so hard to > sell the idea to a marketing newsgroup.
Once again missing the point. There is no good publicity value. And bitching at us because we’re telling you that is wearing thin. — George Demmer Reality Marketing Associates, Coquitlam, BC, Canada Phone: (604) 944-8603 Web site: www.realityassociates.com Everything your company does is marketing. We can help you do it better.
Response:
Rob, It’s become clear to me that I don’t want to drag this out or harrass eBay. However, the scenario has basically played out as you describe, simply in an abbreviated form. My question is, how can I write a press release that will be of interest, given what has transpired? I’m back to my original question: What’s the angle? How can I make this of interest to a journalist? Since I did the right thing right away, is there a way to make that news? Or perhaps write an article about it? C’mon, marketing people, THINK! Actually, what I mean is think like MARKETING people. So far, I feel like I’m the only one here doing that. I realize I’m the only one with a vested interest, but what’s the point of this newsgroup otherwise? I came here for ideas, not to be beaten up for making a mistake. Anyway, Happy Holidays, and thanks for the time and thought you’ve invested in this thread. Sincerely, Lee Grey Grey Matter http://www.AUCTIONrelay.com http://www.URLinOne.com [Bottom-quoting deleted. Let's not be so lazy, folks. Please do this. stj]
Response:
I tried to get rebay.com, actually. It was unavailable, as was freebay.com, mebay.com, leebay.com, webay.com, seebay.com, thebay.com, and pretty much everything-else-in-the-world-that-comes-close-to-ebay.com. That’s why I thought it was such a coup to snag ebayrelay.com. I’m actually pretty happy with http://www.auctionrelay.com. I really don’t want to upset eBay, and I’ll STILL send them my advertising for free, whether they need it or not. :-) All I’m looking for now is the news story that makes this whole experience worthwhile. Thanks, Lee Grey (Still so full that I’m getting a cramp from typing too fast)
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I have to differ with your statement that the only thing my project has > going for it is the word "ebay" in the name. My service points directly to > eBay auctions. I am advertising for them. > Your legal problem is that your URL suggests an association with eBay > where none exists. You’d only have a chance of getting away with that > URL if you had no common market/topic. > I’d suggest you condence "ebay-relay" into "REBAY". For your > portection, devise as accronym or a clever use of the word "bay" to > make it non-ebay related. > However, it would be pointless to do as every message you’ve posted on > the topic is in the public domain and can be retreived and used by > eBay attorney’s agains you. > Therefore you’d do best to desist and not use ebay derivations unless > you do so much more ambiguously. > PS: eBay doesn’t need your advertising. 
Response:
Comments below…
> But, you see, this is exactly why I am contemplating opportunities > here. My conscience is clear, because I never calculated this. It > never occurred to me (perhaps I’m naive, but I’m not devious) that > there would be a problem with this domain name. > Not trying to pick on you, Lee, but ignorance of a law is not a defence > for breaking it. I do find it just a bit hard to believe that as a > businessperson, you had no idea what a registered trade mark (that > little "r" in the circle that’s part of their logo isn’t just > decorative) like eBay signified.
But I don’t think this is so obvious that I should have seen it. I’m a software developer, not a lawyer. These are not the waters I swim in every day. If you want to talk about Java syntax, I can probably point out where you’re missing the obvious, too. I am beginning to get the picture, here, but I still defend my right to have not seen this from the outset. I made an innocent mistake. I had no bad intentions, so I just didn’t see it. That’s why lawyers go to school for all those years, isn’t it? That’s what their antennae are tuned to. Not mine. What surprises me is the negative response I’ve gotten here, in a marketing forum. The people in the intellectual property newsgroup have been much kinder, more forgiving, and willing to accept this as an honest mistake. I find that surprising. (I’m not singling you out, George. I just happen to be saying this in my reply to you.) > More platitudes: The only bad publicity is no publicity. Or is it, > There is no such thing as bad publicity? > Hmmm…this may be the root of your confusion! > Want to hire O.J. or Robert Blake as a spokesperson? Maybe Pee Wee > Herman as your babysitter? How about doing business with (or buying some > shares in) Enron…or WorldCom…or Tyco?
But you’ve picked the worst examples. Are they the exception that proves the rule? (I’m not sure I’ve ever really understood that whole idea of an exception proving a rule, so forget that. Still, does my event compare to these? > All on that list received vast amounts of publicity. Still think there’s > no such thing as bad publicity?
These things are news, not publicity. They didn’t go looking for the publicity. And they were all already famous. I’m just looking for a way to emerge from obscurity and get my name out there. Not at eBay’s expense. Why can’t I get http://www.auctionrelay.com some exposure as a result of this "brush with the law"? > I was amused but a little hurt by the parasitic entrepreneur comment, > but, again, please keep in mind that I am not out to compete with eBay > but to send traffic to their auctions. > I wasn’t trying to hurt, just trying to show what kind of slant a > journalist might see (as well as amuse!).
Point taken. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> And, again, this was an unintended blunder. I came here hoping to get > some ideas for how to make lemonade, not to be scolded. I really > expected a little more creativity and compassion. I don’t mean that > as argumentative as much as disappointed. I suppose it’s hard to > believe that this was an honest mistake, but it was. > I’d be a lot more willing to show compassion if you admitted the lemons > were rotten and stopped trying to peddle lemonade from them! That you > keep trying is what doesn’t smell quite right. > I’ll simply reiterate my earlier suggestion to build your service on its > own merits. Start focusing on why your prospects should care and how to > communicate your advantages to them instead of trying to squeeze > personal gain out of eBay spending a bunch of money on lawyers to fight > you. (I’ll add that if you were right, I’d be first in line encouraging > you to fight them tooth and nail and get whatever mileage you could out > of the deal.)
Maybe you’ve misunderstood me. I was not looking for a way to fight them (once I was convinced that use of ebayrelay.com was actually a violation of their trademark rights). I was looking for a way to gracefully change names and get a little press in the process. Yes, I want to build the service on its own merits. I had no plans of being a hard-ass with eBay, forcing them into a nuisance lawsuit; that’s not the way I operate. All I’m looking for is a way to get the word out about the newly-named service, and I thought this event might be newsworthy. Isn’t there a way to do the right thing and still reap a little reward from the fact that this happened at all? I think everyone is so bent on making me out to be a sleazebag that they’re missing the point. I’m not trying to screw eBay or make them come after me. I’m straightening this whole thing out. But it happened. Why is it wrong for me to try to get some publicity out of it? I don’t think that hurts eBay. And I’m very surprised that I have to work so hard to sell the idea to a marketing newsgroup.
Response:
I have to differ with your statement that the only thing my project has going for it is the word "ebay" in the name. My service points directly to eBay auctions. I am advertising for them. However, please see my upcoming post for a more contrite comment. Thanks, Lee Grey Decent Human Being (despite what you may think) [Bottom-quoting deleted. Please do this stuff, folks. stj]
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But, you see, this is exactly why I am contemplating opportunities here. My conscience is clear, because I never calculated this. It never occurred to me (perhaps I’m naive, but I’m not devious) that there would be a problem with this domain name. But, now that I have been notified by eBay, I am looking to turn lemons into lemonade. Isn’t that the conventional wisdom all the gurus teach us? More platitudes: The only bad publicity is no publicity. Or is it, There is no such thing as bad publicity? Either way, I’m not trying to be unethical. I have already reserved the domain name http://www.auctionrelay.com, and I’m just waiting for the DNS servers to point the right way to change over. I was just looking for an angle to get my service known to people. I was amused but a little hurt by the parasitic entrepreneur comment, but, again, please keep in mind that I am not out to compete with eBay but to send traffic to their auctions. And, again, this was an unintended blunder. I came here hoping to get some ideas for how to make lemonade, not to be scolded. I really expected a little more creativity and compassion. I don’t mean that as argumentative as much as disappointed. I suppose it’s hard to believe that this was an honest mistake, but it was. Anyway, Happy Thanksgiving. I appreciate your responses, nonetheless. Best wishes, Lee Grey Grey Matter [Bottom-quoting deleted. Please do this, folks. stj]
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> Now, I realize this is not a legal forum, but, is their claim that cut > and dried? Do I stand to gain anything by putting up a fight?
Is their claim cut and dried, of course not. One of the major misuses of IP law is the overbroad defense of trademarks. As long as there isn’t a possible confusion that your site is affiliated or otherwise connected with Ebay, you should be okay. This is more than a little dicey considering that you’re in the same general business category What is cut and dried, however, is that ebay will crush you like a bug unless you have an angel with deep, deep pockets to pay your legal bills. > More to the point, I am wondering if there is an opportunity here. > Whether I try to fight them or whether I quietly acquiesce and move to > a different domain name, is this a chance for some free publicity, in > the form of a news story? If so, what’s the hook, the angle, the > story? Can I make my existence known to a large audience, thanks to > this snafu?
Nobody cares about this kind of story anymore.It’s old hat. — Gary J. Weiner Habitat for Humanity of Suffolk http://www.hatrack.net http://www.hfhsuffolk.org "Hang Your Web With Us!"
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> I have to differ with your statement that the only thing my project has > going for it is the word "ebay" in the name. My service points directly to > eBay auctions. I am advertising for them.
Your legal problem is that your URL suggests an association with eBay where none exists. You’d only have a chance of getting away with that URL if you had no common market/topic. I’d suggest you condence "ebay-relay" into "REBAY". For your portection, devise as accronym or a clever use of the word "bay" to make it non-ebay related. However, it would be pointless to do as every message you’ve posted on the topic is in the public domain and can be retreived and used by eBay attorney’s agains you. Therefore you’d do best to desist and not use ebay derivations unless you do so much more ambiguously. PS: eBay doesn’t need your advertising.
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> But, you see, this is exactly why I am contemplating opportunities > here. My conscience is clear, because I never calculated this. It > never occurred to me (perhaps I’m naive, but I’m not devious) that > there would be a problem with this domain name.
Not trying to pick on you, Lee, but ignorance of a law is not a defence for breaking it. I do find it just a bit hard to believe that as a businessperson, you had no idea what a registered trade mark (that little "r" in the circle that’s part of their logo isn’t just decorative) like eBay signified. > More platitudes: The only bad publicity is no publicity. Or is it, > There is no such thing as bad publicity?
Hmmm…this may be the root of your confusion! Want to hire O.J. or Robert Blake as a spokesperson? Maybe Pee Wee Herman as your babysitter? How about doing business with (or buying some shares in) Enron…or WorldCom…or Tyco? All on that list received vast amounts of publicity. Still think there’s no such thing as bad publicity? > I was amused but a little hurt by the parasitic entrepreneur comment, > but, again, please keep in mind that I am not out to compete with eBay > but to send traffic to their auctions.
I wasn’t trying to hurt, just trying to show what kind of slant a journalist might see (as well as amuse!). > And, again, this was an unintended blunder. I came here hoping to get > some ideas for how to make lemonade, not to be scolded. I really > expected a little more creativity and compassion. I don’t mean that > as argumentative as much as disappointed. I suppose it’s hard to > believe that this was an honest mistake, but it was.
I’d be a lot more willing to show compassion if you admitted the lemons were rotten and stopped trying to peddle lemonade from them! That you keep trying is what doesn’t smell quite right. I’ll simply reiterate my earlier suggestion to build your service on its own merits. Start focusing on why your prospects should care and how to communicate your advantages to them instead of trying to squeeze personal gain out of eBay spending a bunch of money on lawyers to fight you. (I’ll add that if you were right, I’d be first in line encouraging you to fight them tooth and nail and get whatever mileage you could out of the deal.) — George Demmer Reality Marketing Associates, Coquitlam, BC, Canada Phone: (604) 944-8603 Web site: www.realityassociates.com Everything your company does is marketing. We can help you do it better.
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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Just yesterday, I rolled out a new service that allows auction sellers > to display their auctions on their web site for free. I felt happy to > have snagged the domain name http://www.ebayrelay.com for this > service. > Less than 24 hours after my web site made it onto the first search > engine, I got an email from eBay politely but firmly insisting that my > use of this domain name is a violation of their trademark rights and > that I must stop using it. > Now, I realize this is not a legal forum, but, is their claim that cut > and dried? Do I stand to gain anything by putting up a fight? > More to the point, I am wondering if there is an opportunity here. > Whether I try to fight them or whether I quietly acquiesce and move to > a different domain name, is this a chance for some free publicity, in > the form of a news story? If so, what’s the hook, the angle, the > story? Can I make my existence known to a large audience, thanks to > this snafu? > Thanks for any ideas or advice. > Sincerely, > Lee Grey > Grey Matter > http://www.ebayrelay.com > http://www.auctionrelay.com (my backup) > http://www.URLinOne.com
Hi Lee, Happy Thanksgiving! I like your "look for the silver lining" approach here. There is an opportunity. It is likely that you will lose this, in my layman’s opinion, mostly because eBay could likely sustain a longer fight than you can. Acquiescing, however, doesn’t mean you can’t profit. 1.) Do not respond to eBay, yet. 2.) Consult an attorney. 3.) Ask him/her if the message you’ve already received from eBay constitutes an official, legal notification. 4.) If he/she feels not, try to hold the site active long enough to attract some publicity. Hopefully, it will be some gained by a threat or threats eBay makes that attracts media attention. 3.) Once a threat is made that will force you into a fight, acquiesce, to your advantage. Here’s how… a.) Redirect eBayrelay.com to auctionrelay.com. b.) On that site, have some apology page keyword rich with eBayrelay.com. The public won’t know how many times eBay contacted you. Apologize for any infringement, expound on your high regard for eBay, etc., etc., etc., and overuse the eBayrelay.com phrase. The way search engines work, it will find eBayrelay.com on your site even if its URL is auctionrelay.com. 4.) Your press release idea should occur as soon as your attorney identifies the "last straw" threat. It will act as your offline equivalent to your apology page. Good luck, Rob http://www.LetterRep.com
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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Just yesterday, I rolled out a new service that allows auction sellers to > display their auctions on their web site for free. I felt happy to have > snagged the domain name http://www.ebayrelay.com for this service. > Less than 24 hours after my web site made it onto the first search engine, > I > got an email from eBay politely but firmly insisting that my use of this > domain name is a violation of their trademark rights and that I must stop > using it. > I suggest you copy this post to the newsgroup misc.int-property, which is a > legal forum and can address your trademark questions. Off hand, I would > think that ebay could claim that your domain name might cause "dilution". > *Claim* is the key word. It doesn’t matter whether they are wrong or right. > If they pursue this case, even if they are wrong, you will go through hell > and it will cost you a lot of money. > But, by all means, if you are in the clear, stick up for yourself, if it is > worth the time/trouble/effort to you. > Mike
Thanks for your reply, Mike. I will forward my question to misc.int-property; thanks for that. What I’m looking for from this newsgroup, however, are ideas on how I might gain some free publicity from this event. Is there any kind of press release that I could write about this David vs. Goliath (even though Goliath is going to win!) mismatch that could be considered interesting, newsworthy, etc.? Surely this brush with eBay is worth something, isn’t it? Thinking caps, please, people! :-) How do I turn this negative into a positive? Happy Thanksgiving, everyone! Lee Grey Grey Matter http://www.URLinOne.com
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> What I’m looking for from this newsgroup, however, are ideas > on how I might gain some free publicity from this event.
You mean like the bankruptcy notices they print in newspapers? The "goliath goes after david" stuff is getting a bit worn out. Its a play for sympathy. Since you are (presumably) using their trademark to your benefit, which is probably against the law, and since ebay probably has a pretty damn good case against you, I don’t think the publicity will do you any good, IF the media even pays any attention (and they probably won’t). But, I’m not a lawyer, and I don’t know what you’re looking to get out of this in terms of benefits. So whatever you decide, good luck!
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Put yourself in their shoes for moment. The only thing your project has going for it is the word ‘ebay’ in your web name. That word is their property, that they have turned into an asset through their own efforts. What you’re attempting isn’t David and Goliath. It’s just plain theft. Maybe it runs against the grain of this forum, but perhaps you might consider behaving decently solely for the sake of behaving like a decent human being. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Just yesterday, I rolled out a new service that allows auction sellers to > display their auctions on their web site for free. I felt happy to have > snagged the domain name http://www.ebayrelay.com for this service. > Less than 24 hours after my web site made it onto the first search engine, I > got an email from eBay politely but firmly insisting that my use of this > domain name is a violation of their trademark rights and that I must stop > using it. > Now, I realize this is not a legal forum, but, is their claim that cut and > dried? Do I stand to gain anything by putting up a fight? > More to the point, I am wondering if there is an opportunity here. Whether > I try to fight them or whether I quietly acquiesce and move to a different > domain name, is this a chance for some free publicity, in the form of a news > story? If so, what’s the hook, the angle, the story? Can I make my > existence known to a large audience, thanks to this snafu? > Thanks for any ideas or advice. > Sincerely, > Lee Grey > Grey Matter > http://www.ebayrelay.com > http://www.auctionrelay.com (my backup) > http://www.URLinOne.com
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> More to the point, I am wondering if there is an opportunity here. > Whether I try to fight them or whether I quietly acquiesce and move to > a different domain name, is this a chance for some free publicity, in > the form of a news story? If so, what’s the hook, the angle, the > story? Can I make my existence known to a large audience, thanks to > this snafu?
Lee, You’ve already received a couple of pretty strong opinions on your question, but here’s another… If you were saving whales, or orphans, or kittens and eBay was trying to crush you…there MIGHT be a positive publicity angle. But the truth of your story would have a headline along the lines of "Parasitic entrepreneur tries to syphon off eBay". In other words, there is no sympathy or unfairness angle for you to play on. If you managed to get any publicity at all (unlikely), it would be negative publicity. If you have a valuable service that people want, build it on its own merits, not by hijacking eBay’s name and success. — George Demmer Reality Marketing Associates, Coquitlam, BC, Canada Phone: (604) 944-8603 Web site: www.realityassociates.com Everything your company does is marketing. We can help you do it better.
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> Just yesterday, I rolled out a new service that allows auction sellers to > display their auctions on their web site for free. I felt happy to have > snagged the domain name http://www.ebayrelay.com for this service. > Less than 24 hours after my web site made it onto the first search engine, I > got an email from eBay politely but firmly insisting that my use of this > domain name is a violation of their trademark rights and that I must stop > using it.
I suggest you copy this post to the newsgroup misc.int-property, which is a legal forum and can address your trademark questions. Off hand, I would think that ebay could claim that your domain name might cause "dilution". *Claim* is the key word. It doesn’t matter whether they are wrong or right. If they pursue this case, even if they are wrong, you will go through hell and it will cost you a lot of money. But, by all means, if you are in the clear, stick up for yourself, if it is worth the time/trouble/effort to you. Mike
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Just yesterday, I rolled out a new service that allows auction sellers to display their auctions on their web site for free. I felt happy to have snagged the domain name http://www.ebayrelay.com for this service. Less than 24 hours after my web site made it onto the first search engine, I got an email from eBay politely but firmly insisting that my use of this domain name is a violation of their trademark rights and that I must stop using it. Now, I realize this is not a legal forum, but, is their claim that cut and dried? Do I stand to gain anything by putting up a fight? More to the point, I am wondering if there is an opportunity here. Whether I try to fight them or whether I quietly acquiesce and move to a different domain name, is this a chance for some free publicity, in the form of a news story? If so, what’s the hook, the angle, the story? Can I make my existence known to a large audience, thanks to this snafu? Thanks for any ideas or advice. Sincerely, Lee Grey Grey Matter http://www.ebayrelay.com http://www.auctionrelay.com (my backup) http://www.URLinOne.com