Business History Books » Business Plans » How's Lufthansa Business Class?
How's Lufthansa Business Class?
Question:
> And (I think) the mixed grill.
Trying not to be ig’nant here, but is "mixed grill," any relation to Meorav Yerushalmi (Jerusalem Mix), which is pretty much every part of the chicken you’re not supposed to eat [hearts, kidneys, livers, etc..]? It smells terrible.. I always kept as far from it as I could when it was Meorav day in the kitchen I worked in last year. Matthew 
Response:
>> Who knows what’s next? Ansett is configuring some of their fleet >> with the same seats throughout the aircraft, leading one to think >> that they might get rid of business class completely. >You know what’s interesting, I’m doing work experience at AN Customer >Relations and from a lot of feedback, customers seem to be getting that >impression (it won’t happen). > With the greatest respect, the Customer Relations people would not > yet be privy to such plans if they were being made.
I know what you mean, but I still think it is quite unlikely, given the battering they’ve had from the 733 flop. AN will have to think long and hard before they consider such a program again – the problems haven’t been with leisure travellers, rather business passengers. They’re the ones that matter. It’s backfired, because premium, high yield customers are jumping ship. They thought they’d improve the product, add a few more seats to Y, maitaining J pitch, so there’d be extra revenue. They just forgot about scaring customers (important ones) off. At the end of the day, they lose. Spend more money on new cabins, lose more J revenue, maybe pickup (read fit) extra Y through capacity increase, ultimately lowering yields. Not good. > Yes, I think they want to listen, but in the case of the 737, they > waited far too long. Oh well, at least we got rid of Enya. And (I > think) the mixed grill.
Sorry, mixed grill is still there. Haven’t read a single good thing about that, nor for the duck. I don’t think they waited too long, management just didn’t want to listen. Change is very slow to implement at AN and well, nothing ever runs to plan. As for Enya, that just seemed to fade away after a while, but some of the music videos do cheapen the atmosphere. > What astonished me is that apart from ‘customer surveys’, AN > executives would have been travelling on these planes. They would > have found the new seats just as uncomfortable as paying passengers. > They too would have been unable to comfortably use a laptop even in > business class.
They take comfort in numbers, actually it seemed like a shock to some of them (Craig Wallace actually wrote a letter to a customer). Their numbers always tell them that AN 733s seat among the least pax in the world for their short sector time (someone forgot about SYD/BNE-DRW) and their justification was along the lines, "well other airlines such as Lufthansa, et al, are flying with 29" seat pitch" – therefore 31" is nothing. Strictly speaking, I believe that 32" should be the bare minimum, because 6 footers do exist. >From what I’ve been told, contrary to what you said earlier this year, the >reconfiguration has not been halted, rather it has been "delayed". > Justin, you’ve already been in Customer Relations too long. What, > pray, is the difference between ‘delayed’ and ‘halted’? Is the > refurbishment program proceeding at this time?
I’ll check, but I got the impression that it’s been delayed due to other commitments. Halted seems to indicate that it will no longer be proceeding. It will proceed, because one of the aims of the program was to standardise the fleet configuration. Last figure I saw was end of May for the entire fleet to be done. There won’t be many left to do. >AN will be starting MEL-HKG services, 4x weekly from Nov 1 using 763 >equipment. > How will it be configured?
As per usual, 210 seats (25J & 185Y) on -BZF. Remember, it also does the SYD-HKG v.v. runs on Mon & Tues. > — Craig
Cheers, Justin
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Who knows what’s next? Ansett is configuring some of their fleet > with the same seats throughout the aircraft, leading one to think > that they might get rid of business class completely. > You know what’s interesting, I’m doing work experience at AN Customer > Relations and from a lot of feedback, customers seem to be getting that > impression (it won’t happen). 733 complaints still trickle in, they (CR) > were very serious about the 733 problems and for AN it really has backfired > on them. > From what I’ve been told, contrary to what you said earlier this year, the > reconfiguration has not been halted, rather it has been "delayed". > Apparently they’ve managed to squeeze in some more rows in some other > aircraft for the Olympics. > AN will be starting MEL-HKG services, 4x weekly from Nov 1 using 763 > equipment.
Justin, is any of these information confidential? I hope it won’t affect your work experience contract there. Otherwise we’d love to hear more from you… 
— Weiyun [Remove the obvious for email replies]
Response:
> Who knows what’s next? Ansett is configuring some of their fleet > with the same seats throughout the aircraft, leading one to think > that they might get rid of business class completely.
You know what’s interesting, I’m doing work experience at AN Customer Relations and from a lot of feedback, customers seem to be getting that impression (it won’t happen). 733 complaints still trickle in, they (CR) were very serious about the 733 problems and for AN it really has backfired on them. From what I’ve been told, contrary to what you said earlier this year, the reconfiguration has not been halted, rather it has been "delayed". Apparently they’ve managed to squeeze in some more rows in some other aircraft for the Olympics. AN will be starting MEL-HKG services, 4x weekly from Nov 1 using 763 equipment. Cheers, Justin – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> — Craig
Response:
> Who knows what’s next? Ansett is configuring some of their fleet > with the same seats throughout the aircraft, leading one to think > that they might get rid of business class completely.
Oh oh, it’s Euro Business class coming down under…. 
— Weiyun [Remove the obvious for email replies]
Response:
>Midland 737 that I flew LHR-AMS). You might get a special 3-3 >configuration in which the middle seats are narrower than the others, and >normally not sold except to small children. Or you might get a normal 3-3
Arm rests flip in or out to create 2 wide seats por 3 standard narrow ones. >Now in Australia, I noticed that Qantas called their domestic "forward" >section "business class", and it’s pretty much the same as U.S. domestic >"first". Still not quite as good as their international business class, >of course, but at least in the same ballpark. Good on ya, Qantas!
The first few seats (2 rows) of most QF 737s *used* to be their F class (but are business class now). The convertible seats after those were reconfigurable for business class and are used for business or economy depending on demand like in Europe. FWIW, the difference between business class and full flexible economy in Europe is negligible. On my first business trip, i inquired into the savings for LHR-LIN-LHR on BA. GBP 5 a leg or something life that.
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->>>1. How’s Lufthansa’s business class? >>Domestically, at least on some planes, they don’t really have a "business >>class" to speak of. They just move the divider depending on how much >>space they need "up front". Not cool. >Thats pretty standard for flights within Europe with most airlines > I haven’t flown enough intra-Europe hops on enough different airlines to > know if it’s "most" or not, but I’ve definitely experienced it on some. > You might get better food than in coach (though if the dried-out sandwich > LH handed me once is "better" than what they were offering in coach, I > hate to think what coach was getting). Sometimes, but not always, the > "business" section has better seat pitch than coach (but not on a British > Midland 737 that I flew LHR-AMS). You might get a special 3-3 > configuration in which the middle seats are narrower than the others, and > normally not sold except to small children. Or you might get a normal 3-3 > config, in which the middle seats are normally not sold. But on the > British Midlands flight, EVERY seat was sold in the "business" section and > I swear the pitch was less than AA domestic coach (pre-reconfig). > We in the US have our own disconnect, in that "first class" domestic is a > far cry from "first class" international. f/c domestic isn’t even up to > international business class in terms of seat pitch and amenities. > Now in Australia, I noticed that Qantas called their domestic "forward" > section "business class", and it’s pretty much the same as U.S. domestic > "first". Still not quite as good as their international business class, > of course, but at least in the same ballpark. Good on ya, Qantas! > — jeh
My experience intra-Europe is weekly – and BC is better than Y but not the same as FC domestic US in terms of seat pitch and width. Typically, the majors (intra-Europe-non-domestic) are configured for about a 32-36 inch pitch and where one would expect a 3-3, you get a 2- 3 with a micro seat between the A/B side (has it’s own tray table). The right side generally has the middle seat free, but if needed, they’ll sell it. The 5 seats qare all the same size as far as I could tell – and wider than the 3-3 coach seats. Food tends to be better than coach, drinks are free (as they are in coach but the selection is a bit better), the tickets are fully refundable and don’t require any kind of stay, you have access to the clubs, and you can get bonus miles. The price difference between full fare Y and BC is nowhere near the price difference between US Y and FC. Most of us fly BC for the convenience of reticketing and not having to stay overnight. Doing day trips between European capitals is pretty routine – and to be honest, the few centimeters of space in width makes a difference when your seat mate is a "wide-load". amp Before you buy.
Response:
>>>1. How’s Lufthansa’s business class? >Domestically, at least on some planes, they don’t really have a "business >class" to speak of. They just move the divider depending on how much >space they need "up front". Not cool. >Thats pretty standard for flights within Europe with most airlines
I haven’t flown enough intra-Europe hops on enough different airlines to know if it’s "most" or not, but I’ve definitely experienced it on some. You might get better food than in coach (though if the dried-out sandwich LH handed me once is "better" than what they were offering in coach, I hate to think what coach was getting). Sometimes, but not always, the "business" section has better seat pitch than coach (but not on a British Midland 737 that I flew LHR-AMS). You might get a special 3-3 configuration in which the middle seats are narrower than the others, and normally not sold except to small children. Or you might get a normal 3-3 config, in which the middle seats are normally not sold. But on the British Midlands flight, EVERY seat was sold in the "business" section and I swear the pitch was less than AA domestic coach (pre-reconfig). We in the US have our own disconnect, in that "first class" domestic is a far cry from "first class" international. f/c domestic isn’t even up to international business class in terms of seat pitch and amenities. Now in Australia, I noticed that Qantas called their domestic "forward" section "business class", and it’s pretty much the same as U.S. domestic "first". Still not quite as good as their international business class, of course, but at least in the same ballpark. Good on ya, Qantas! — jeh
Response:
> (though if the dried-out sandwich > LH handed me once is "better" than what they were offering in coach, I > hate to think what coach was getting).
On all Lufthansa business class flights I’ve taken inside Europe, even short hops such as FRA-ZRH, FRA-CDG, FRA-AMS (around 1 hour flight time or less), I got a meal, not just a sandwich, and several drinks too, followed by coffee or tea. This was the same for KLM and Air France business class. I’ve never been offered just a sandwich in business class, but it might be like that on intra-German flights, which are too short to serve a meal.
Response:
> >You can’t mean that you shouldn’t have to ask for a 1-liter bottle >of water, I don’t think. What about those of us that do NOT want >a 1-liter bottle of water? (Me, I want two 12-oz cans of club >soda or seltzer and a few little bottles of vodka for an overnight >flight.) > No I mean I shouldn’t have to ask to, if I have a glass, to have it > filled. If I drink it that is up to me. Not for a 1lt bottle – that > is excessive.. but UA gives little 500ml bottles out and that is > appropriate for long hauls like SYD-SFO|LAX. > -richard (flew FRA-HKG – a 12.5 hour flight in C).
My experience has been that an empty glass is always filled – though I much prefer a plastic bottle – less spillage potential. Delta hands out 8 oz bottles – AA used to be a bit more stingy (on request and then sometimes it takes a bit of arm twisting) though now it seems they pre- load C with 8 or 12 oz bottles. I once liberated a liter (or maybe 1.5) from the galley midflight – didn’t make me all too popular – but then again, when they are busy quatching (how do you spell that) – I don’t want to be getting up every 20 minutes to get four more ounces. amp Before you buy.
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> (though if the dried-out sandwich > LH handed me once is "better" than what they were offering in coach, I > hate to think what coach was getting). >On all Lufthansa business class flights I’ve taken inside Europe, even >short hops such as FRA-ZRH, FRA-CDG, FRA-AMS (around 1 hour flight time >or less), I got a meal, not just a sandwich, and several drinks too, >followed by coffee or tea. >This was the same for KLM and Air France business class. I’ve never been >offered just a sandwich in business class, but it might be like that on >intra-German flights, which are too short to serve a meal.
Yes, it happened to me last year. I was flying LH business class from Frankfurt to Nuremberg – a short 40 minutes hop in a B737. In business class we got drinks, newspapers and magazines and the mentioned sandwiches while there was no service in coach. On longer intra-German flights Lufthansa has a drinks service in coach only. Martin
Response:
> UA states on their german website that international C Class has a > pitch of 125cm. LH says that their Business class has a pitch of > 122cm. Now if I could convert these measures to inches…
Conversion of centimeters to inches is one of the few conversions I can actually remember, for some reason. (May a math major correct me if I’m wrong For cm -> in you divide cm by 2.54 (in this case, 125cm/2.54 = 49 in; 122cm/2.54 = 48 in). For in -> cm, you multiply in by 2.54 (so 1 foot = approximately 30.5 cm – does this sound right?). In which case the UA seat pitch is 1" greater than LH. –Michelle (who has heard many C/CL pax complain about the new less comfortable seats on LH)
Response:
>1. How’s Lufthansa’s business class?
Domestically, at least on some planes, they don’t really have a "business class" to speak of. They just move the divider depending on how much space they need "up front". Not cool. Internationally, of course, is a different story — but I’ve never had the privilege. — "Having a childhood is overrated." -Stef Maruch
Response:
>Change in plans, and I’ll be flying Lufthansa from LAX to Milan with a >change in planes in Frankfurt. >Two questions: >1. How’s Lufthansa’s business class? >2. I’ve got about 4 hours between flights in Frankfurt. Is there anything >worth seeing in the transit area, or am I better off relaxing in the club >room (I assume they have one for Business Class travellers). >Thanks.
And will you be sending Liana back to coach again, or will you be putting her in the cargo hold this time?
Response:
>You can’t mean that you shouldn’t have to ask for a 1-liter bottle >of water, I don’t think. What about those of us that do NOT want >a 1-liter bottle of water? (Me, I want two 12-oz cans of club >soda or seltzer and a few little bottles of vodka for an overnight >flight.)
No I mean I shouldn’t have to ask to, if I have a glass, to have it filled. If I drink it that is up to me. Not for a 1lt bottle – that is excessive.. but UA gives little 500ml bottles out and that is appropriate for long hauls like SYD-SFO|LAX. -richard (flew FRA-HKG – a 12.5 hour flight in C). — Richard Muirden, UNIX Systems Administrator and aviation nut! Cybersource Pty. Ltd. – Systems Administration and Windows/UNIX Integration "We’re not ever going to merge with Delta. Delta needs to get a life" - Gordon Bethune, Chairman of Continental Airlines, 2000.
Response:
>UA states on their german website that international C Class has a >pitch of 125cm. LH says that their Business class has a pitch of >122cm. Now if I could convert these measures to inches…
well I could be wrong re the pitch as it is subjective, but those seats oh gods do they ever suck. IMHO -richard — Richard Muirden, UNIX Systems Administrator and aviation nut! Cybersource Pty. Ltd. – Systems Administration and Windows/UNIX Integration "We’re not ever going to merge with Delta. Delta needs to get a life" - Gordon Bethune, Chairman of Continental Airlines, 2000.
Response:
>LH has 48” pitch in C-Class and I found the seats to be comfortable >compared to SK or UA (old seats). Recline is ok IMHO nothing fancy but >ok…
you sure? 48"? I find that hard to believe because it seemed a lot worse to me than UA’s 50" C. darn right about the recline. >I always ask for a 1 liter water bottle and get it every time I ask…
shouldn’t *have* to ask. UA is always good (well 85% of the time I concede) in keeping drinks non empty and/or giving water bottles… -richard — Richard Muirden, UNIX Systems Administrator and aviation nut! Cybersource Pty. Ltd. – Systems Administration and Windows/UNIX Integration "We’re not ever going to merge with Delta. Delta needs to get a life" - Gordon Bethune, Chairman of Continental Airlines, 2000.
Response:
<snip> >I always ask for a 1 liter water bottle and get it every time I ask… >shouldn’t *have* to ask. UA is always good (well 85% of the time I concede) >in keeping drinks non empty and/or giving water bottles…
You can’t mean that you shouldn’t have to ask for a 1-liter bottle of water, I don’t think. What about those of us that do NOT want a 1-liter bottle of water? (Me, I want two 12-oz cans of club soda or seltzer and a few little bottles of vodka for an overnight flight.)
Response:
>you sure? 48"? I find that hard to believe because it seemed a lot worse >to me than UA’s 50" C. darn right about the recline.
UA states on their german website that international C Class has a pitch of 125cm. LH says that their Business class has a pitch of 122cm. Now if I could convert these measures to inches…
Response:
<snip> >One thing that they have in common is smoking. While the are supposed >to be divided into a smoking and a nonsmoking section, there is no real >division. And smokers don’t hesite and keep smoking while walking thru >the nonsmoking section. So, in the end, the smell of smoke is >everywhere.
And they have a longer life expectancy than we in the US do. Hm…
Response:
> Change in plans, and I’ll be flying Lufthansa from LAX to Milan with a > change in planes in Frankfurt. > Two questions: > 1. How’s Lufthansa’s business class?
In Europe, it’s more like flying a good economy class than a true business class ; same seats, better food, that’s all. On long-haul flights, you should enjoy their seats. I never fly in Biz, only twice in First on long-haul with Lufthansa. The service was wonderful in F. I tried the seats in B/C and found them very comfortable. You should enoy your flight. > 2. I’ve got about 4 hours between flights in Frankfurt. Is there anything > worth seeing in the transit area, or am I better off relaxing in the club > room (I assume they have one for Business Class travellers).
You’ll have access to their Business Class loung which is well furnished and bright. Good selection of drinks. — Tarik Hemmal —–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–== Over 80,000 Newsgroups – 16 Different Servers! =—–
Response:
>>1. How’s Lufthansa’s business class? >don’t expect much unfortunately. Their pitch is rotten (only about 42-43" >on the A340.. REALLY crappy!) and the "new" seats are uncomfortable – I >couldn’t sleep at all…
LH has 48” pitch in C-Class and I found the seats to be comfortable compared to SK or UA (old seats). Recline is ok IMHO nothing fancy but ok… > Had no walk through in flight >to refill water glasses or even a seperate bottle of spring water in seat >pocket. amenity kit was bare too – UA’s is better (and that isn’t saying >much!).
I always ask for a 1 liter water bottle and get it every time I ask…
Response:
>1. How’s Lufthansa’s business class?
don’t expect much unfortunately. Their pitch is rotten (only about 42-43" on the A340.. REALLY crappy!) and the "new" seats are uncomfortable – I couldn’t sleep at all… with the same crappy small useless pillows they have in Y (at least UA gives you better pillows and blankets in C, and a chair thatreclines properly, has decent legroom and one can sleep in). As a non German I felt discriminated against (on a flight with a load of only 8/42 in C!) with the bare minimum of service required – German speaking pax seemed to get better service. Had no walk through in flight to refill water glasses or even a seperate bottle of spring water in seat pocket. amenity kit was bare too – UA’s is better (and that isn’t saying much!). Apart from that, it’s fine YMMV of course. >2. I’ve got about 4 hours between flights in Frankfurt. Is there anything >worth seeing in the transit area, or am I better off relaxing in the club >room (I assume they have one for Business Class travellers).
The Business Class lounge is okay, but impersonal and smokey last time I( was there. Drinks not as good as the senator lounge.(upstairs and open to F pax and Star Golds IIRC – not sure about C class pax). Enjoy your trip. -richard — Richard Muirden, UNIX Systems Administrator and aviation nut! Cybersource Pty. Ltd. – Systems Administration and Windows/UNIX Integration "We’re not ever going to merge with Delta. Delta needs to get a life" - Gordon Bethune, Chairman of Continental Airlines, 2000.
Response:
> Change in plans, and I’ll be flying Lufthansa from LAX to Milan with a > change in planes in Frankfurt. > Two questions: > 1. How’s Lufthansa’s business class?
Not so great. Keep in mind that it’s really aimed at a different market, though. To some destinations, they have D fares out of Germany that are pretty reasonably priced. Service is German. That is, pretty efficient if impersonal. I guess I kind of like that. Seat pitch and width are not great. Food is OK. > 2. I’ve got about 4 hours between flights in Frankfurt. Is there anything > worth seeing in the transit area, or am I better off relaxing in the club > room (I assume they have one for Business Class travellers).
They have a business class lounge and a Senator lounge. And it seems to me the difference is minimal. I seem to recall only that they have better finger food/sandwiches in the Senator lounges, otherwise everything is the same. And now that all Star alliance Gold folks get access to Senator Lounges (which are smaller), they are actually more crowded. One thing that they have in common is smoking. While the are supposed to be divided into a smoking and a nonsmoking section, there is no real division. And smokers don’t hesite and keep smoking while walking thru the nonsmoking section. So, in the end, the smell of smoke is everywhere. (The UA Red Carpet lounge is actually much nicer at FRA.)
Response:
Change in plans, and I’ll be flying Lufthansa from LAX to Milan with a change in planes in Frankfurt. Two questions: 1. How’s Lufthansa’s business class? 2. I’ve got about 4 hours between flights in Frankfurt. Is there anything worth seeing in the transit area, or am I better off relaxing in the club room (I assume they have one for Business Class travellers). Thanks.