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Home Heating Advice needed
Question:
I guess it comes down to how bad the buyer wants the house or how bad the seller wants to ge rid of the house. I myself would not give up a house that I wanted because of a 3 year remaining lease on a new boiler or furnace. If the house was suitable,I would assume the lease….just another bargaining item when you get right down to it I guess.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> >> I just replaced a bolier in my house.I did a lot of looking and found > that > >> by leasing a domestic boiler from a oil company was the best way to go. > >> The cost is 52.50 per month(varies slightly)and is installed free.The > lease > >> is for 5 years.During the 5 years,you are covered by insurance and get > >> annual cleanings free.You do however need to buy your furnace oil from > them. > >> The total cost over 5 years is approx.3300.00 > >> If you went out and bought a boiler yourself,you would pay close to > that I > >> am sure after you hired a plumberto install it,a burner tech to fire it > up > >> and paid 500.00 for 5 years in insurance. > >> just my opinion… > >> gl, > >> Slider > >There’s another factor as well: if you are planning on selling your home > >during the currency of the lease, most purchase and sale agreements will > >spell out whether the vendor is to pay out the lease (potential ouch, > >especially if there’s a penalty) or whether the purchaser is to assume > it. > >In the latter case, you’ll want to ensure the lessor will release you > from > >your personal obligation to pay if the purchaser defaults. I’ve run into > >several situations where a vendor has paid out a lease and is still > getting > >bills, or where a purchaser has assumed a lease and the vendor also still > >gets bills (Irving is especially notorious for this). IMHO, if you’re > >planning on selling the house during the lifetime of the lease, it’s too > >much of a pain in the butt to go with leasing unless you have it in > writing, > >in advance, that (a) the purchaser will assume the lease and (b) the > leasing > >company will let the vendor off the hook. (b) is probably difficult to > >impossible to obtain in advance since they would have no idea who the > >potential purchaser would be, or his/her creditworthiness. > When we planned our furnace replacement I called the company that > leased the water heater to us. I said – I don’t need it – come and get > it. They said they would have to charge me for breaking the lease and > for removal. I informed them their lease was with the previous owner > of the house; that I had signed no agreement; and that they could come > get it or I would put it out on the street on garbage day. Most of the > oil companies try to back customers into a corner on these deals. > Often with a bit of assertiveness they will back down.
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->> I just replaced a bolier in my house.I did a lot of looking and found that >> by leasing a domestic boiler from a oil company was the best way to go. >> The cost is 52.50 per month(varies slightly)and is installed free.The lease >> is for 5 years.During the 5 years,you are covered by insurance and get >> annual cleanings free.You do however need to buy your furnace oil from them. >> The total cost over 5 years is approx.3300.00 >> If you went out and bought a boiler yourself,you would pay close to that I >> am sure after you hired a plumberto install it,a burner tech to fire it up >> and paid 500.00 for 5 years in insurance. >> just my opinion… >> gl, >> Slider >There’s another factor as well: if you are planning on selling your home >during the currency of the lease, most purchase and sale agreements will >spell out whether the vendor is to pay out the lease (potential ouch, >especially if there’s a penalty) or whether the purchaser is to assume it. >In the latter case, you’ll want to ensure the lessor will release you from >your personal obligation to pay if the purchaser defaults. I’ve run into >several situations where a vendor has paid out a lease and is still getting >bills, or where a purchaser has assumed a lease and the vendor also still >gets bills (Irving is especially notorious for this). IMHO, if you’re >planning on selling the house during the lifetime of the lease, it’s too >much of a pain in the butt to go with leasing unless you have it in writing, >in advance, that (a) the purchaser will assume the lease and (b) the leasing >company will let the vendor off the hook. (b) is probably difficult to >impossible to obtain in advance since they would have no idea who the >potential purchaser would be, or his/her creditworthiness. > When we planned our furnace replacement I called the company that > leased the water heater to us. I said – I don’t need it – come and get > it. They said they would have to charge me for breaking the lease and > for removal. I informed them their lease was with the previous owner > of the house; that I had signed no agreement; and that they could come > get it or I would put it out on the street on garbage day. Most of the > oil companies try to back customers into a corner on these deals. > Often with a bit of assertiveness they will back down.
@@ What was the final outcome?
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->> That’s fine as the buyer (and I had a similar experience with Irving and a >> propane tank), but I was speaking of potential problems for a seller (who >> presumably is the person who would be installing the leased equipment in the >> first place). I would NEVER buy a property with a leased heater, tank, etc. >> unless the vendor paid it out and provided a receipt (or the vendor’s lawyer >> undertook to pay it out on closing)…even if everything else goes >> perfectly, you’d still usually be required to buy oil from the leasing >> company, which gives you no bargaining room against the rack rate. > I’m curious about what the oil company could do, if one bought a house > with leased equipment, and then told the lessor that you did not > require the equipment. Besides coming to remove the equipment would > they have any claim? >Not against you if you didn’t agree to assume the lease with the company >(it’s a little more gray when you agree in a purchase and sale to assume >leases but do not do so with the company: presumably the company could not >benefit from that since they’re not a party to the purchase and sale >agreement, but the vendor of the house could come back on you for breach of >contract if they were bit by the leasing company). But if you did assume >the lease with the oil co., you could be personally responsible for any >shortfall (which there quite likely would be) between what was owing plus >expenses, less what they got for the equipment (usually diddly). The vendor >might also be responsible if s/he was not released from their personal >obligation (much the same as assuming a mortgage, for example). That’s why >I said a vendor should not sell without a release of their personal >covenants, nor should a buyer buy with a lease in place.
Ahhh… hence the advice to specify in the agreement of purchase and sale that any existing leases be paid out or terminated prior to closing. It makes good sense.
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> >> I just replaced a bolier in my house.I did a lot of looking and found >that > >> by leasing a domestic boiler from a oil company was the best way to go. > >> The cost is 52.50 per month(varies slightly)and is installed free.The >lease > >> is for 5 years.During the 5 years,you are covered by insurance and get > >> annual cleanings free.You do however need to buy your furnace oil from >them. > >> The total cost over 5 years is approx.3300.00 > >> If you went out and bought a boiler yourself,you would pay close to >that I > >> am sure after you hired a plumberto install it,a burner tech to fire it >up > >> and paid 500.00 for 5 years in insurance. > >> just my opinion… > >> gl, > >> Slider > >There’s another factor as well: if you are planning on selling your home > >during the currency of the lease, most purchase and sale agreements will > >spell out whether the vendor is to pay out the lease (potential ouch, > >especially if there’s a penalty) or whether the purchaser is to assume >it. > >In the latter case, you’ll want to ensure the lessor will release you >from > >your personal obligation to pay if the purchaser defaults. I’ve run into > >several situations where a vendor has paid out a lease and is still >getting > >bills, or where a purchaser has assumed a lease and the vendor also still > >gets bills (Irving is especially notorious for this). IMHO, if you’re > >planning on selling the house during the lifetime of the lease, it’s too > >much of a pain in the butt to go with leasing unless you have it in >writing, > >in advance, that (a) the purchaser will assume the lease and (b) the >leasing > >company will let the vendor off the hook. (b) is probably difficult to > >impossible to obtain in advance since they would have no idea who the > >potential purchaser would be, or his/her creditworthiness. > When we planned our furnace replacement I called the company that > leased the water heater to us. I said – I don’t need it – come and get > it. They said they would have to charge me for breaking the lease and > for removal. I informed them their lease was with the previous owner > of the house; that I had signed no agreement; and that they could come > get it or I would put it out on the street on garbage day. Most of the > oil companies try to back customers into a corner on these deals. > Often with a bit of assertiveness they will back down.
The plumbing and heating company that installed my new furnace arranged with the oil company to come get the old water heater. I heard nothing further from the oil company.
Response:
> I guess it comes down to how bad the buyer wants the house or how bad the > seller wants to ge rid of the house. > I myself would not give up a house that I wanted because of a 3 year > remaining lease on a new boiler or furnace. > If the house was suitable,I would assume the lease….just another > bargaining item when you get right down to it I guess.
True, but remember: (1) A bank will consider this (and you should) as part of your carrying costs for a house – so if your bank will only let you "carry" say $600 for principal, interest, taxes and insurance and your furnace lease is $30 a month, you should look for payments of $570; and (2) Although the furnace cost is part of the house cost, it will not be included in the value of the appraisal and thus the bank won’t lend you on it. So, for example, if you have $3000 left on the furnace, and the house "with" the furnace is worth $100,000, it’s worth $97,000 to the bank (which will then lend you the relevant percentage of that). You’ll have to pay the $100,000 back though (through the mortgage and through the lease). If bucks are tight, you’re better off saying to the vendor, "I’ll give you $100,000 subject to the property appraising for at least that; you pay out the furnace." Then you can go to the bank, agreement in hand, and if the property appraises out for that, you can borrow on the "total" value (generally purchase price or appraisal, whichever is the lesser: I’m oversimplifying but that’s the way most lenders look at it).
Response:
> I would worry more about the burner that you use. You can buy a Riello > burner which is very fuel efficient and use it on pretty much any boiler. > That is where the efficiency comes in.
There is nothing wrong with a Beckett burner (they are actually more reliable than a Riello). Also, the burner has little to do with the efficiency. The design of the boiler does. You can have 2 boilers side by side with the EXACT burner in it and one will give you 82 % and the other will give you 89%. Yes, some burners are more efficient that others, but not much. Nobody makes an INefficient burner. > I think that the pricing that I saw > here is a bit high but I guess it might be that high if you go through an > oil company. I’d get a recommended plumber and I’d bet it would be much > cheaper than the oilk company.
Price not only depends on the brand of equipment, it also has to do with the installation too. If the boiler has to go in a difficult, tight space or has a lot of zones/piping, then the charge is going to be more because there is more labor involved. The company I work for installs several brands (Weil McLain, Burnham, Columbia) and they vary (not much) in price. I prefer the Burnhams, though the Weil Macs are a very good design. If you quiet and efficient and are wiling to pay a little more, get an Energy Kinetics 2000. BTW, yes we are an oil company and we stay busy because we are cheaper than the plumbers. PLUS, when we install a new unit, you can put 50% down on the boiler and then make whatever payments you are comfortable with and we do not charge interest. Yes, like any oil company, you must buy oil from us, but we do give 5 year parts and 3 years labor on any new install. Can’t get that from a plumbing company……. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> hi > i need some advice on replacing my home heating system. the current > system i have is a 27 yr old New Yorker Boiler that supplies the house > (split level, hwbb, 2 zones) with hot water for both heat and domestic > hot water. i’ve been calling for quotes and i like really like the > cast iron boilers made by Olsen and Weil-Mclean but is the extra money > spent on them justifable or would i be better off with a Wet base or > even a dry base steel boiler? anyone with info/opinions or if you’ve > had a cast iron system installed please email me and tell me what > a big decision for me so i want to get it right the 1st time. thanks > in advance. > graham
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I would worry more about the burner that you use. You can buy a Riello > burner which is very fuel efficient and use it on pretty much any boiler. > That is where the efficiency comes in. > There is nothing wrong with a Beckett burner (they are actually more > reliable than a Riello). Also, the burner has little to do with the > efficiency. The design of the boiler does. You can have 2 boilers side by > side with the EXACT burner in it and one will give you 82 % and the other > will give you 89%. Yes, some burners are more efficient that others, but not > much. Nobody makes an INefficient burner. > I think that the pricing that I saw > here is a bit high but I guess it might be that high if you go through an > oil company. I’d get a recommended plumber and I’d bet it would be much > cheaper than the oilk company. > Price not only depends on the brand of equipment, it also has to do with the > installation too. If the boiler has to go in a difficult, tight space or has > a lot of zones/piping, then the charge is going to be more because there is > more labor involved. The company I work for installs several brands (Weil > McLain, Burnham, Columbia) and they vary (not much) in price. I prefer the > Burnhams, though the Weil Macs are a very good design. If you quiet and > efficient and are wiling to pay a little more, get an Energy Kinetics 2000. > BTW, yes we are an oil company and we stay busy because we are cheaper than > the plumbers. PLUS, when we install a new unit, you can put 50% down on the > boiler and then make whatever payments you are comfortable with and we do > not charge interest. Yes, like any oil company, you must buy oil from us, > but we do give 5 year parts and 3 years labor on any new install. Can’t get > that from a plumbing company……. > > hi > > i need some advice on replacing my home heating system. the current > > system i have is a 27 yr old New Yorker Boiler that supplies the house > > (split level, hwbb, 2 zones) with hot water for both heat and domestic > > hot water. i’ve been calling for quotes and i like really like the > > cast iron boilers made by Olsen and Weil-Mclean but is the extra money > > spent on them justifable or would i be better off with a Wet base or > > even a dry base steel boiler? anyone with info/opinions or if you’ve > > had a cast iron system installed please email me and tell me what > > a big decision for me so i want to get it right the 1st time. thanks > > in advance. > > graham
If you wat a really efficien system end to end go with Viesseman (not sure if I spelled it right). This is a German made boiler, it is considrered the best in the world. It has the highest boiler efficiency in the world and it is guaranteed for life. I put this in my third house and it was incredible. If you want more info just email me thanks.
Response:
I would worry more about the burner that you use. You can buy a Riello burner which is very fuel efficient and use it on pretty much any boiler. That is where the efficiency comes in. I think that the pricing that I saw here is a bit high but I guess it might be that high if you go through an oil company. I’d get a recommended plumber and I’d bet it would be much cheaper than the oilk company.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> hi > i need some advice on replacing my home heating system. the current > system i have is a 27 yr old New Yorker Boiler that supplies the house > (split level, hwbb, 2 zones) with hot water for both heat and domestic > hot water. i’ve been calling for quotes and i like really like the > cast iron boilers made by Olsen and Weil-Mclean but is the extra money > spent on them justifable or would i be better off with a Wet base or > even a dry base steel boiler? anyone with info/opinions or if you’ve > had a cast iron system installed please email me and tell me what > a big decision for me so i want to get it right the 1st time. thanks > in advance. > graham
Response:
> I’m curious about what the oil company could do, if one bought a house > with leased equipment, and then told the lessor that you did not > require the equipment. Besides coming to remove the equipment would > they have any claim?
That’s what they’d do. They are quite good about it. If you don’t agree to assume the lease they will want to take it away. Most oil companies since the very early 90’s won’t even lease the stuff any more except as lease to own. Or, if they do/did, when the item fails you’ll find you need to buy a new one. What they seem to do, however, is let you "buy" it but that you owe them at a monthly rate with *no* interest. As such, this is actually a better deal. The price will be $xxx if you pay today or (say) 60 months of $yyy for a total of $xxx. Again, if you want to pay it out early because you want to sell the house free and clear you go in ask how many months are left, write a cheque and you are done. At other places that have you lease for a certain number of years, at the end of the term send you a bill for $1.00. You pay it and you then own the equipment and pay no more.
Response:
>> That’s fine as the buyer (and I had a similar experience with Irving and a > propane tank), but I was speaking of potential problems for a seller (who > presumably is the person who would be installing the leased equipment in the > first place). I would NEVER buy a property with a leased heater, tank, etc. > unless the vendor paid it out and provided a receipt (or the vendor’s lawyer > undertook to pay it out on closing)…even if everything else goes > perfectly, you’d still usually be required to buy oil from the leasing > company, which gives you no bargaining room against the rack rate. > I’m curious about what the oil company could do, if one bought a house > with leased equipment, and then told the lessor that you did not > require the equipment. Besides coming to remove the equipment would > they have any claim?
Not against you if you didn’t agree to assume the lease with the company (it’s a little more gray when you agree in a purchase and sale to assume leases but do not do so with the company: presumably the company could not benefit from that since they’re not a party to the purchase and sale agreement, but the vendor of the house could come back on you for breach of contract if they were bit by the leasing company). But if you did assume the lease with the oil co., you could be personally responsible for any shortfall (which there quite likely would be) between what was owing plus expenses, less what they got for the equipment (usually diddly). The vendor might also be responsible if s/he was not released from their personal obligation (much the same as assuming a mortgage, for example). That’s why I said a vendor should not sell without a release of their personal covenants, nor should a buyer buy with a lease in place.
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> There’s another factor as well: if you are planning on selling your home > during the currency of the lease, most purchase and sale agreements will > spell out whether the vendor is to pay out the lease (potential ouch, > especially if there’s a penalty) or whether the purchaser is to assume it. > In the latter case, you’ll want to ensure the lessor will release you from > your personal obligation to pay if the purchaser defaults. I’ve run into > several situations where a vendor has paid out a lease and is still getting > bills, or where a purchaser has assumed a lease and the vendor also still > gets bills (Irving is especially notorious for this). IMHO, if you’re > planning on selling the house during the lifetime of the lease, it’s too > much of a pain in the butt to go with leasing unless you have it in writing, > in advance, that (a) the purchaser will assume the lease and (b) the leasing > company will let the vendor off the hook. (b) is probably difficult to > impossible to obtain in advance since they would have no idea who the > potential purchaser would be, or his/her creditworthiness. > When we planned our furnace replacement I called the company that > leased the water heater to us. I said – I don’t need it – come and get > it. They said they would have to charge me for breaking the lease and > for removal. I informed them their lease was with the previous owner > of the house; that I had signed no agreement; and that they could come > get it or I would put it out on the street on garbage day. Most of the > oil companies try to back customers into a corner on these deals. > Often with a bit of assertiveness they will back down.
That’s fine as the buyer (and I had a similar experience with Irving and a propane tank), but I was speaking of potential problems for a seller (who presumably is the person who would be installing the leased equipment in the first place). I would NEVER buy a property with a leased heater, tank, etc. unless the vendor paid it out and provided a receipt (or the vendor’s lawyer undertook to pay it out on closing)…even if everything else goes perfectly, you’d still usually be required to buy oil from the leasing company, which gives you no bargaining room against the rack rate.
Response:
>i’m not saying that the oil companies are out to rip me off just that >all the quotes i’ve gotten so far are for steel, dry base systems >which aren’t are efficient as cast iron. to me a cast iron system will >hold its heat a lot longer, therefore it won’t be coming on as much to >keep the water hot. the efficiencies listed for boilers take mainly >into account of how efficiently oil is converted into heat which to me >has more to do with the burner. anyone out there with a cast iron >boiler to back me up on this???
The Teledyne Lars I wrote about earlier is cast iron. The problem with trying to say if it’s good or not is that I have nothing to compare it too besides the old clunker we removed. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->FIrst of all, oil companies and furnance companies are all legit or they >wouldn’t be in business. They aren’t flogging used cars where you don’t >know the car history or scruples of the dealer. The manufacturers build the >furnaces/boilers to specific specs and the outlets are not going to sabatoge >them. >You will find a large difference in cost between buying and leasing. Your >most economical choice would be to buy your furnace/boiler rather than lease >it. I just purchased a house with a leased boiler and blew up when I saw >what they were charging for it. The previous owners had leased it over 10 >years and the final cost over time was around $6600. We just entered into >the second year of the lease. Had they purchased it and had it installed >they could have done it for less than $3000. The major oil companies all >clean your furnace each year. Some charge a small fee for cleaning and >insurance. Some charge a couple cents more a litre and include it as part >of their service. If you lease you are locked in to the oil company who >supplied it. In my case Emera which are at the highest end of the price >scale for oil. A difference of $.08-10/ltr. So the cost of the boiler is >extravagant by leasing and I’m locked into paying almost a 1/5th more for my >oil which amounts to a lot of money over the 10 year period. >I use Comfy Fuels(was Boudreau Fuels)for my other house where I own the >boiler and save tons and their service is great. They installed two new oil >tanks this summer for me, emtying out my old ones and removing them and >returning my oil into the new ones for less than what Emera or Shell wanted >to charge me for one. >As for efficiency, all boilers are very close today and a difference of 2-3% >probably would not provide a payback for the extra money that you would >spend. That is what you need to look at or have the suppliers explain. How >much oil will each one burn to heat a 2000 sq ft house for one year. Factor >in your heating costs and look at the difference. If you save $50/yr and the >furnance costs you an extra $1000 to save the $50, it will take 20 years to >recover the costs. Is it worth it to you? >On the other hand the new systems with the indirect fired water heaters are >great for continuous hot water if you have a large family and well worth >the extra money. >Best of luck and let us know what you finally decide. >Mike >> >i don’t believe buying a boiler from an oil company serves your >> >best interests as far as effiency goes. they want you to use >> >oil so they may not be trying to sell you the most efficient unit. >> >what kind did you wind up getting. also, those service plans the oil >> >companies offer are a joke. >> I really can’t accept they would sell a poorly tuned or inefficient >> boiler. In most cases also, the boiler being replaced is at the end of >> its useful life, so the new boiler installation will always result in >> a big improvement. I would think every boiler maker tries to make >> their model as efficient as possible within the constraints of >> materials and design costs. To do anything less would be commercial >> suicide. Also, to do anything other than set the system up according >> to the manufacturer’s instructions would be unethical and immoral and >> would give the installer a very bad reputation in a short period, as >> service technicians discovered this and spread the word around the >> industry. I just can’t picture it happening. >> I put in a Teledyne Lars mid efficiency boiler to replace my old >> converted cast-iron formerly-coal-fired unit. Wow what a difference. >> Not only did my oil bill drop dramatically, but I eliminated an oil >> fired hot water heather in favour of a much more efficient indirect >> fired heater, the noise level dropped and the chimney stays incredibly >> clean. >> The indirect fired water heater is very very nice. It’s a stainless >> steel tank in a super insulated plastic covered unit that looks like a >> regular water heater. There’s a heat exchange coil in it, that runs >> into the regular boiler system, as it’s own small zone. When the water >> heater calls for heat, the furnace fires up that small zone and in 3 >> very short cycles the tank is warm, and it maintains the temperature >> to within something like 2 degrees over a 24 hour period. >> You can put these storage tanks in series to keep a large volume of >> hot water on standby, but we seldom run out of hot, and when we do the >> tiny Teledyne Lars rapidly heats that exchange coil to give us more. >> Funny this is that the former separate oil fired water heater was a >> leased unit. I forget the company – it might have been shell. One day >> we had hot water problems and I noticed grey smoke pouring out of the >> chimney. The service guy came over and "fixed" it. A year later when >> we were replacing the whole system with the new boiler, the plumbers >> took the old water heater out, first removing the burner, and found >> the large tube that directs the flame from the burner was plugged with >> soot by about 80% of its diameter. Makes me wonder just how much oil >> was wasted over the years. >> The current system has one burner and burns as clean as can be. I >> clean the unit myself and only ever have a fine coating of light grey >> ash to deal with. >> Cheers! >> >>I just replaced a bolier in my house.I did a lot of looking and found >that >> >>by leasing a domestic boiler from a oil company was the best way to go. >> >>The cost is 52.50 per month(varies slightly)and is installed free.The >lease >> >>is for 5 years.During the 5 years,you are covered by insurance and get >> >>annual cleanings free.You do however need to buy your furnace oil from >them. >> >>The total cost over 5 years is approx.3300.00 >> >>If you went out and bought a boiler yourself,you would pay close to that >I >> >>am sure after you hired a plumberto install it,a burner tech to fire it >up >> >>and paid 500.00 for 5 years in insurance. >> >>just my opinion… >> >>gl, >> >>Slider >> >>> hi >> >>> i need some advice on replacing my home heating system. the current >> >>> system i have is a 27 yr old New Yorker Boiler that supplies the house >> >>> (split level, hwbb, 2 zones) with hot water for both heat and domestic >> >>> hot water. i’ve been calling for quotes and i like really like the >> >>> cast iron boilers made by Olsen and Weil-Mclean but is the extra money >> >>> spent on them justifable or would i be better off with a Wet base or >> >>> even a dry base steel boiler? anyone with info/opinions or if you’ve >> >>> had a cast iron system installed please email me and tell me what >> >>> a big decision for me so i want to get it right the 1st time. thanks >> >>> in advance. >> >>> graham
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->> There’s another factor as well: if you are planning on selling your home >> during the currency of the lease, most purchase and sale agreements will >> spell out whether the vendor is to pay out the lease (potential ouch, >> especially if there’s a penalty) or whether the purchaser is to assume it. >> In the latter case, you’ll want to ensure the lessor will release you from >> your personal obligation to pay if the purchaser defaults. I’ve run into >> several situations where a vendor has paid out a lease and is still getting >> bills, or where a purchaser has assumed a lease and the vendor also still >> gets bills (Irving is especially notorious for this). IMHO, if you’re >> planning on selling the house during the lifetime of the lease, it’s too >> much of a pain in the butt to go with leasing unless you have it in writing, >> in advance, that (a) the purchaser will assume the lease and (b) the leasing >> company will let the vendor off the hook. (b) is probably difficult to >> impossible to obtain in advance since they would have no idea who the >> potential purchaser would be, or his/her creditworthiness. > When we planned our furnace replacement I called the company that > leased the water heater to us. I said – I don’t need it – come and get > it. They said they would have to charge me for breaking the lease and > for removal. I informed them their lease was with the previous owner > of the house; that I had signed no agreement; and that they could come > get it or I would put it out on the street on garbage day. Most of the > oil companies try to back customers into a corner on these deals. > Often with a bit of assertiveness they will back down. >That’s fine as the buyer (and I had a similar experience with Irving and a >propane tank), but I was speaking of potential problems for a seller (who >presumably is the person who would be installing the leased equipment in the >first place). I would NEVER buy a property with a leased heater, tank, etc. >unless the vendor paid it out and provided a receipt (or the vendor’s lawyer >undertook to pay it out on closing)…even if everything else goes >perfectly, you’d still usually be required to buy oil from the leasing >company, which gives you no bargaining room against the rack rate.
I’m curious about what the oil company could do, if one bought a house with leased equipment, and then told the lessor that you did not require the equipment. Besides coming to remove the equipment would they have any claim?
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I just replaced a bolier in my house.I did a lot of looking and found that > by leasing a domestic boiler from a oil company was the best way to go. > The cost is 52.50 per month(varies slightly)and is installed free.The lease > is for 5 years.During the 5 years,you are covered by insurance and get > annual cleanings free.You do however need to buy your furnace oil from them. > The total cost over 5 years is approx.3300.00 > If you went out and bought a boiler yourself,you would pay close to that I > am sure after you hired a plumberto install it,a burner tech to fire it up > and paid 500.00 for 5 years in insurance. > just my opinion… > gl, > Slider >There’s another factor as well: if you are planning on selling your home >during the currency of the lease, most purchase and sale agreements will >spell out whether the vendor is to pay out the lease (potential ouch, >especially if there’s a penalty) or whether the purchaser is to assume it. >In the latter case, you’ll want to ensure the lessor will release you from >your personal obligation to pay if the purchaser defaults. I’ve run into >several situations where a vendor has paid out a lease and is still getting >bills, or where a purchaser has assumed a lease and the vendor also still >gets bills (Irving is especially notorious for this). IMHO, if you’re >planning on selling the house during the lifetime of the lease, it’s too >much of a pain in the butt to go with leasing unless you have it in writing, >in advance, that (a) the purchaser will assume the lease and (b) the leasing >company will let the vendor off the hook. (b) is probably difficult to >impossible to obtain in advance since they would have no idea who the >potential purchaser would be, or his/her creditworthiness.
When we planned our furnace replacement I called the company that leased the water heater to us. I said – I don’t need it – come and get it. They said they would have to charge me for breaking the lease and for removal. I informed them their lease was with the previous owner of the house; that I had signed no agreement; and that they could come get it or I would put it out on the street on garbage day. Most of the oil companies try to back customers into a corner on these deals. Often with a bit of assertiveness they will back down.
Response:
i’m not saying that the oil companies are out to rip me off just that all the quotes i’ve gotten so far are for steel, dry base systems which aren’t are efficient as cast iron. to me a cast iron system will hold its heat a lot longer, therefore it won’t be coming on as much to keep the water hot. the efficiencies listed for boilers take mainly into account of how efficiently oil is converted into heat which to me has more to do with the burner. anyone out there with a cast iron boiler to back me up on this??? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->FIrst of all, oil companies and furnance companies are all legit or they >wouldn’t be in business. They aren’t flogging used cars where you don’t >know the car history or scruples of the dealer. The manufacturers build the >furnaces/boilers to specific specs and the outlets are not going to sabatoge >them. >You will find a large difference in cost between buying and leasing. Your >most economical choice would be to buy your furnace/boiler rather than lease >it. I just purchased a house with a leased boiler and blew up when I saw >what they were charging for it. The previous owners had leased it over 10 >years and the final cost over time was around $6600. We just entered into >the second year of the lease. Had they purchased it and had it installed >they could have done it for less than $3000. The major oil companies all >clean your furnace each year. Some charge a small fee for cleaning and >insurance. Some charge a couple cents more a litre and include it as part >of their service. If you lease you are locked in to the oil company who >supplied it. In my case Emera which are at the highest end of the price >scale for oil. A difference of $.08-10/ltr. So the cost of the boiler is >extravagant by leasing and I’m locked into paying almost a 1/5th more for my >oil which amounts to a lot of money over the 10 year period. >I use Comfy Fuels(was Boudreau Fuels)for my other house where I own the >boiler and save tons and their service is great. They installed two new oil >tanks this summer for me, emtying out my old ones and removing them and >returning my oil into the new ones for less than what Emera or Shell wanted >to charge me for one. >As for efficiency, all boilers are very close today and a difference of 2-3% >probably would not provide a payback for the extra money that you would >spend. That is what you need to look at or have the suppliers explain. How >much oil will each one burn to heat a 2000 sq ft house for one year. Factor >in your heating costs and look at the difference. If you save $50/yr and the >furnance costs you an extra $1000 to save the $50, it will take 20 years to >recover the costs. Is it worth it to you? >On the other hand the new systems with the indirect fired water heaters are >great for continuous hot water if you have a large family and well worth >the extra money. >Best of luck and let us know what you finally decide. >Mike > >i don’t believe buying a boiler from an oil company serves your > >best interests as far as effiency goes. they want you to use > >oil so they may not be trying to sell you the most efficient unit. > >what kind did you wind up getting. also, those service plans the oil > >companies offer are a joke. > I really can’t accept they would sell a poorly tuned or inefficient > boiler. In most cases also, the boiler being replaced is at the end of > its useful life, so the new boiler installation will always result in > a big improvement. I would think every boiler maker tries to make > their model as efficient as possible within the constraints of > materials and design costs. To do anything less would be commercial > suicide. Also, to do anything other than set the system up according > to the manufacturer’s instructions would be unethical and immoral and > would give the installer a very bad reputation in a short period, as > service technicians discovered this and spread the word around the > industry. I just can’t picture it happening. > I put in a Teledyne Lars mid efficiency boiler to replace my old > converted cast-iron formerly-coal-fired unit. Wow what a difference. > Not only did my oil bill drop dramatically, but I eliminated an oil > fired hot water heather in favour of a much more efficient indirect > fired heater, the noise level dropped and the chimney stays incredibly > clean. > The indirect fired water heater is very very nice. It’s a stainless > steel tank in a super insulated plastic covered unit that looks like a > regular water heater. There’s a heat exchange coil in it, that runs > into the regular boiler system, as it’s own small zone. When the water > heater calls for heat, the furnace fires up that small zone and in 3 > very short cycles the tank is warm, and it maintains the temperature > to within something like 2 degrees over a 24 hour period. > You can put these storage tanks in series to keep a large volume of > hot water on standby, but we seldom run out of hot, and when we do the > tiny Teledyne Lars rapidly heats that exchange coil to give us more. > Funny this is that the former separate oil fired water heater was a > leased unit. I forget the company – it might have been shell. One day > we had hot water problems and I noticed grey smoke pouring out of the > chimney. The service guy came over and "fixed" it. A year later when > we were replacing the whole system with the new boiler, the plumbers > took the old water heater out, first removing the burner, and found > the large tube that directs the flame from the burner was plugged with > soot by about 80% of its diameter. Makes me wonder just how much oil > was wasted over the years. > The current system has one burner and burns as clean as can be. I > clean the unit myself and only ever have a fine coating of light grey > ash to deal with. > Cheers! > >>I just replaced a bolier in my house.I did a lot of looking and found >that > >>by leasing a domestic boiler from a oil company was the best way to go. > >>The cost is 52.50 per month(varies slightly)and is installed free.The >lease > >>is for 5 years.During the 5 years,you are covered by insurance and get > >>annual cleanings free.You do however need to buy your furnace oil from >them. > >>The total cost over 5 years is approx.3300.00 > >>If you went out and bought a boiler yourself,you would pay close to that >I > >>am sure after you hired a plumberto install it,a burner tech to fire it >up > >>and paid 500.00 for 5 years in insurance. > >>just my opinion… > >>gl, > >>Slider > >>> hi > >>> i need some advice on replacing my home heating system. the current > >>> system i have is a 27 yr old New Yorker Boiler that supplies the house > >>> (split level, hwbb, 2 zones) with hot water for both heat and domestic > >>> hot water. i’ve been calling for quotes and i like really like the > >>> cast iron boilers made by Olsen and Weil-Mclean but is the extra money > >>> spent on them justifable or would i be better off with a Wet base or > >>> even a dry base steel boiler? anyone with info/opinions or if you’ve > >>> had a cast iron system installed please email me and tell me what > >>> a big decision for me so i want to get it right the 1st time. thanks > >>> in advance. > >>> graham
Response:
> I just replaced a bolier in my house.I did a lot of looking and found that > by leasing a domestic boiler from a oil company was the best way to go. > The cost is 52.50 per month(varies slightly)and is installed free.The lease > is for 5 years.During the 5 years,you are covered by insurance and get > annual cleanings free.You do however need to buy your furnace oil from them. > The total cost over 5 years is approx.3300.00 > If you went out and bought a boiler yourself,you would pay close to that I > am sure after you hired a plumberto install it,a burner tech to fire it up > and paid 500.00 for 5 years in insurance. > just my opinion… > gl, > Slider
There’s another factor as well: if you are planning on selling your home during the currency of the lease, most purchase and sale agreements will spell out whether the vendor is to pay out the lease (potential ouch, especially if there’s a penalty) or whether the purchaser is to assume it. In the latter case, you’ll want to ensure the lessor will release you from your personal obligation to pay if the purchaser defaults. I’ve run into several situations where a vendor has paid out a lease and is still getting bills, or where a purchaser has assumed a lease and the vendor also still gets bills (Irving is especially notorious for this). IMHO, if you’re planning on selling the house during the lifetime of the lease, it’s too much of a pain in the butt to go with leasing unless you have it in writing, in advance, that (a) the purchaser will assume the lease and (b) the leasing company will let the vendor off the hook. (b) is probably difficult to impossible to obtain in advance since they would have no idea who the potential purchaser would be, or his/her creditworthiness.
Response:
> i’m leaning towards a cast iron boiler, which would be even more > efficient. they’re about $1000 more though. i’m hoping to hear from > someone who has a cast iron boiler installed.
My family has a couple of large commercial buildings, with cast iron boilers. I can’t speak for the efficiencies but they do "last forever" with proper maintenance. Go with one of the bigger brands if you’re in for the long haul as older boilers can sometimes have parts supply problems and you’re going to be better off with something with thousands or millions of units in service (so even if the company no longer stands behind the product, some after-market guy will).
Response:
FIrst of all, oil companies and furnance companies are all legit or they wouldn’t be in business. They aren’t flogging used cars where you don’t know the car history or scruples of the dealer. The manufacturers build the furnaces/boilers to specific specs and the outlets are not going to sabatoge them. You will find a large difference in cost between buying and leasing. Your most economical choice would be to buy your furnace/boiler rather than lease it. I just purchased a house with a leased boiler and blew up when I saw what they were charging for it. The previous owners had leased it over 10 years and the final cost over time was around $6600. We just entered into the second year of the lease. Had they purchased it and had it installed they could have done it for less than $3000. The major oil companies all clean your furnace each year. Some charge a small fee for cleaning and insurance. Some charge a couple cents more a litre and include it as part of their service. If you lease you are locked in to the oil company who supplied it. In my case Emera which are at the highest end of the price scale for oil. A difference of $.08-10/ltr. So the cost of the boiler is extravagant by leasing and I’m locked into paying almost a 1/5th more for my oil which amounts to a lot of money over the 10 year period. I use Comfy Fuels(was Boudreau Fuels)for my other house where I own the boiler and save tons and their service is great. They installed two new oil tanks this summer for me, emtying out my old ones and removing them and returning my oil into the new ones for less than what Emera or Shell wanted to charge me for one. As for efficiency, all boilers are very close today and a difference of 2-3% probably would not provide a payback for the extra money that you would spend. That is what you need to look at or have the suppliers explain. How much oil will each one burn to heat a 2000 sq ft house for one year. Factor in your heating costs and look at the difference. If you save $50/yr and the furnance costs you an extra $1000 to save the $50, it will take 20 years to recover the costs. Is it worth it to you? On the other hand the new systems with the indirect fired water heaters are great for continuous hot water if you have a large family and well worth the extra money. Best of luck and let us know what you finally decide. Mike
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->i don’t believe buying a boiler from an oil company serves your >best interests as far as effiency goes. they want you to use >oil so they may not be trying to sell you the most efficient unit. >what kind did you wind up getting. also, those service plans the oil >companies offer are a joke. > I really can’t accept they would sell a poorly tuned or inefficient > boiler. In most cases also, the boiler being replaced is at the end of > its useful life, so the new boiler installation will always result in > a big improvement. I would think every boiler maker tries to make > their model as efficient as possible within the constraints of > materials and design costs. To do anything less would be commercial > suicide. Also, to do anything other than set the system up according > to the manufacturer’s instructions would be unethical and immoral and > would give the installer a very bad reputation in a short period, as > service technicians discovered this and spread the word around the > industry. I just can’t picture it happening. > I put in a Teledyne Lars mid efficiency boiler to replace my old > converted cast-iron formerly-coal-fired unit. Wow what a difference. > Not only did my oil bill drop dramatically, but I eliminated an oil > fired hot water heather in favour of a much more efficient indirect > fired heater, the noise level dropped and the chimney stays incredibly > clean. > The indirect fired water heater is very very nice. It’s a stainless > steel tank in a super insulated plastic covered unit that looks like a > regular water heater. There’s a heat exchange coil in it, that runs > into the regular boiler system, as it’s own small zone. When the water > heater calls for heat, the furnace fires up that small zone and in 3 > very short cycles the tank is warm, and it maintains the temperature > to within something like 2 degrees over a 24 hour period. > You can put these storage tanks in series to keep a large volume of > hot water on standby, but we seldom run out of hot, and when we do the > tiny Teledyne Lars rapidly heats that exchange coil to give us more. > Funny this is that the former separate oil fired water heater was a > leased unit. I forget the company – it might have been shell. One day > we had hot water problems and I noticed grey smoke pouring out of the > chimney. The service guy came over and "fixed" it. A year later when > we were replacing the whole system with the new boiler, the plumbers > took the old water heater out, first removing the burner, and found > the large tube that directs the flame from the burner was plugged with > soot by about 80% of its diameter. Makes me wonder just how much oil > was wasted over the years. > The current system has one burner and burns as clean as can be. I > clean the unit myself and only ever have a fine coating of light grey > ash to deal with. > Cheers! >>I just replaced a bolier in my house.I did a lot of looking and found that >>by leasing a domestic boiler from a oil company was the best way to go. >>The cost is 52.50 per month(varies slightly)and is installed free.The lease >>is for 5 years.During the 5 years,you are covered by insurance and get >>annual cleanings free.You do however need to buy your furnace oil from them. >>The total cost over 5 years is approx.3300.00 >>If you went out and bought a boiler yourself,you would pay close to that I >>am sure after you hired a plumberto install it,a burner tech to fire it up >>and paid 500.00 for 5 years in insurance. >>just my opinion… >>gl, >>Slider >>> hi >>> i need some advice on replacing my home heating system. the current >>> system i have is a 27 yr old New Yorker Boiler that supplies the house >>> (split level, hwbb, 2 zones) with hot water for both heat and domestic >>> hot water. i’ve been calling for quotes and i like really like the >>> cast iron boilers made by Olsen and Weil-Mclean but is the extra money >>> spent on them justifable or would i be better off with a Wet base or >>> even a dry base steel boiler? anyone with info/opinions or if you’ve >>> had a cast iron system installed please email me and tell me what >>> a big decision for me so i want to get it right the 1st time. thanks >>> in advance. >>> graham
Response:
i don’t believe buying a boiler from an oil company serves your best interests as far as effiency goes. they want you to use oil so they may not be trying to sell you the most efficient unit. what kind did you wind up getting. also, those service plans the oil companies offer are a joke. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >I just replaced a bolier in my house.I did a lot of looking and found that >by leasing a domestic boiler from a oil company was the best way to go. >The cost is 52.50 per month(varies slightly)and is installed free.The lease >is for 5 years.During the 5 years,you are covered by insurance and get >annual cleanings free.You do however need to buy your furnace oil from them. >The total cost over 5 years is approx.3300.00 >If you went out and bought a boiler yourself,you would pay close to that I >am sure after you hired a plumberto install it,a burner tech to fire it up >and paid 500.00 for 5 years in insurance. >just my opinion… >gl, >Slider > hi > i need some advice on replacing my home heating system. the current > system i have is a 27 yr old New Yorker Boiler that supplies the house > (split level, hwbb, 2 zones) with hot water for both heat and domestic > hot water. i’ve been calling for quotes and i like really like the > cast iron boilers made by Olsen and Weil-Mclean but is the extra money > spent on them justifable or would i be better off with a Wet base or > even a dry base steel boiler? anyone with info/opinions or if you’ve > had a cast iron system installed please email me and tell me what > a big decision for me so i want to get it right the 1st time. thanks > in advance. > graham
Response:
I like the New Yorker and your old one lasted 27yrs!!! The new ones are so much more efficient. Mine came from Shell and a friend recently got one from them and found the service to be great (both are New Yorker). MZ
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> hi > i need some advice on replacing my home heating system. the current > system i have is a 27 yr old New Yorker Boiler that supplies the house > (split level, hwbb, 2 zones) with hot water for both heat and domestic > hot water. i’ve been calling for quotes and i like really like the > cast iron boilers made by Olsen and Weil-Mclean but is the extra money > spent on them justifable or would i be better off with a Wet base or > even a dry base steel boiler? anyone with info/opinions or if you’ve > had a cast iron system installed please email me and tell me what > a big decision for me so i want to get it right the 1st time. thanks > in advance. > graham
Response:
>i don’t believe buying a boiler from an oil company serves your >best interests as far as effiency goes. they want you to use >oil so they may not be trying to sell you the most efficient unit. >what kind did you wind up getting. also, those service plans the oil >companies offer are a joke.
I really can’t accept they would sell a poorly tuned or inefficient boiler. In most cases also, the boiler being replaced is at the end of its useful life, so the new boiler installation will always result in a big improvement. I would think every boiler maker tries to make their model as efficient as possible within the constraints of materials and design costs. To do anything less would be commercial suicide. Also, to do anything other than set the system up according to the manufacturer’s instructions would be unethical and immoral and would give the installer a very bad reputation in a short period, as service technicians discovered this and spread the word around the industry. I just can’t picture it happening. I put in a Teledyne Lars mid efficiency boiler to replace my old converted cast-iron formerly-coal-fired unit. Wow what a difference. Not only did my oil bill drop dramatically, but I eliminated an oil fired hot water heather in favour of a much more efficient indirect fired heater, the noise level dropped and the chimney stays incredibly clean. The indirect fired water heater is very very nice. It’s a stainless steel tank in a super insulated plastic covered unit that looks like a regular water heater. There’s a heat exchange coil in it, that runs into the regular boiler system, as it’s own small zone. When the water heater calls for heat, the furnace fires up that small zone and in 3 very short cycles the tank is warm, and it maintains the temperature to within something like 2 degrees over a 24 hour period. You can put these storage tanks in series to keep a large volume of hot water on standby, but we seldom run out of hot, and when we do the tiny Teledyne Lars rapidly heats that exchange coil to give us more. Funny this is that the former separate oil fired water heater was a leased unit. I forget the company – it might have been shell. One day we had hot water problems and I noticed grey smoke pouring out of the chimney. The service guy came over and "fixed" it. A year later when we were replacing the whole system with the new boiler, the plumbers took the old water heater out, first removing the burner, and found the large tube that directs the flame from the burner was plugged with soot by about 80% of its diameter. Makes me wonder just how much oil was wasted over the years. The current system has one burner and burns as clean as can be. I clean the unit myself and only ever have a fine coating of light grey ash to deal with. Cheers! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->I just replaced a bolier in my house.I did a lot of looking and found that >by leasing a domestic boiler from a oil company was the best way to go. >The cost is 52.50 per month(varies slightly)and is installed free.The lease >is for 5 years.During the 5 years,you are covered by insurance and get >annual cleanings free.You do however need to buy your furnace oil from them. >The total cost over 5 years is approx.3300.00 >If you went out and bought a boiler yourself,you would pay close to that I >am sure after you hired a plumberto install it,a burner tech to fire it up >and paid 500.00 for 5 years in insurance. >just my opinion… >gl, >Slider >> hi >> i need some advice on replacing my home heating system. the current >> system i have is a 27 yr old New Yorker Boiler that supplies the house >> (split level, hwbb, 2 zones) with hot water for both heat and domestic >> hot water. i’ve been calling for quotes and i like really like the >> cast iron boilers made by Olsen and Weil-Mclean but is the extra money >> spent on them justifable or would i be better off with a Wet base or >> even a dry base steel boiler? anyone with info/opinions or if you’ve >> had a cast iron system installed please email me and tell me what >> a big decision for me so i want to get it right the 1st time. thanks >> in advance. >> graham
Response:
i’m leaning towards a cast iron boiler, which would be even more efficient. they’re about $1000 more though. i’m hoping to hear from someone who has a cast iron boiler installed. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >I like the New Yorker and your old one lasted 27yrs!!! The new ones are so >much more efficient. Mine came from Shell and a friend recently got one >from them and found the service to be great (both are New Yorker). >MZ > hi > i need some advice on replacing my home heating system. the current > system i have is a 27 yr old New Yorker Boiler that supplies the house > (split level, hwbb, 2 zones) with hot water for both heat and domestic > hot water. i’ve been calling for quotes and i like really like the > cast iron boilers made by Olsen and Weil-Mclean but is the extra money > spent on them justifable or would i be better off with a Wet base or > even a dry base steel boiler? anyone with info/opinions or if you’ve > had a cast iron system installed please email me and tell me what > a big decision for me so i want to get it right the 1st time. thanks > in advance. > graham
Response:
I just replaced a bolier in my house.I did a lot of looking and found that by leasing a domestic boiler from a oil company was the best way to go. The cost is 52.50 per month(varies slightly)and is installed free.The lease is for 5 years.During the 5 years,you are covered by insurance and get annual cleanings free.You do however need to buy your furnace oil from them. The total cost over 5 years is approx.3300.00 If you went out and bought a boiler yourself,you would pay close to that I am sure after you hired a plumberto install it,a burner tech to fire it up and paid 500.00 for 5 years in insurance. just my opinion… gl, Slider
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> hi > i need some advice on replacing my home heating system. the current > system i have is a 27 yr old New Yorker Boiler that supplies the house > (split level, hwbb, 2 zones) with hot water for both heat and domestic > hot water. i’ve been calling for quotes and i like really like the > cast iron boilers made by Olsen and Weil-Mclean but is the extra money > spent on them justifable or would i be better off with a Wet base or > even a dry base steel boiler? anyone with info/opinions or if you’ve > had a cast iron system installed please email me and tell me what > a big decision for me so i want to get it right the 1st time. thanks > in advance. > graham
Response:
hi i need some advice on replacing my home heating system. the current system i have is a 27 yr old New Yorker Boiler that supplies the house (split level, hwbb, 2 zones) with hot water for both heat and domestic hot water. i’ve been calling for quotes and i like really like the cast iron boilers made by Olsen and Weil-Mclean but is the extra money spent on them justifable or would i be better off with a Wet base or even a dry base steel boiler? anyone with info/opinions or if you’ve had a cast iron system installed please email me and tell me what a big decision for me so i want to get it right the 1st time. thanks in advance. graham