Business History Books » Business Plans » "Fee-Style" Cruising on NCL
"Fee-Style" Cruising on NCL
Question:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Now lines have made every attempt to become merely another horrid traveling > experience. Now the disussion can start early, should we go to ala-carte > restaurant or main dining. Maybe to buffet area and eat in our shorts. Paid > show or free show, real coffee or junk coffee for free. In the meantime I > can be assailed by CNN in cabin or what lines infomercials on TV. I can > spend quality time with my internet connection rather than the wife while I > am cruising. I can call the office from the cabin at a reasonable rate so > they can tell me all their problems ( being retired scratch that and impose > married kids can pass on their miseries for the day ) . I can eat at a fast > food joint just like at my mall, in fact on many ships I can feel just like > I am at my mall when I hit the shopping area. I can decide whether to watch > the so-so movie on TV in cabin or pay for view at 9.95. Maybe even gamble > for a while in cabin with hopes of making enough to pay for the pay for > views movies and ala-carte dinner. > Another situation is having increased the pax capacity of ships you can also > arrive at that wonderful island destination along with 12,000 of your > nearest and dearest fellow citizens at the same time.
George, Very nicely stated….. the differences between then and now. I can truly relate to those wonderful reasons to take a cruise after my first one in the late 70’s. Times were sure different. After reading your description of cruising in today’s world, it really makes me think about what aspects of cruising still appeal to *me*. To be honest, it’s the hardware. I’m still a ship fanatic, and I love the ships themselves – not necessarily the cruise lines that own them or how they run them. I am fascinated by marine architecture, interior design, and even the passenger logistics of cruise ships. I have to wonder if I just took my first cruise yesterday on something like NORWEGIAN STAR, would I still be interested in taking cruises as my primary vacations? Frankly, I think I would be considering all-inclusive resorts which truly are all-inclusive at fairly reasonable prices. The "hassle-factor" of cruising seems to have risen ten-fold over the last decade or so. Once it becomes too much of a hassle, the appeal will be gone all together. For now, I still find the cruise industry and the new ships they are building fascinating. There may come a day when this is no longer the case. Best regards, Ernie Roller – who is taking a non-cruise vacation the last week of this month. A week in Key West with 6 good friends and their partners. Believe me, none of them would consider a cruise!
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>The NY Times said that "The World" is the only ship out there totally >filled with Type A personalities. All, self made millionaires with >aggressive, damn the torpedoes, full steam ahead personalities.
Hi Tom, It just goes to show you can’t believe everything you read in the New York Times. But then you already knew that. <vbg> Best regards, Ray LIGHTHOUSE TRAVEL 800-719-9917 or 805-566-3905 http://www.lighthousetravel.com
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Who would pay even $.10 to see Marty Allen? Seems like a concept (paid shows) that just isn’t going to work. Jeff – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> The excerpt is as follows: > "My biggest complain was a show at 10:30 one night featuring Marty Allen. > They charged $10.00 for it. I did not go, just on principle! The comment > on > ship was it will soon be called FeeStyle Cruising."
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> Who would pay even $.10 to see Marty Allen? Seems like a concept (paid > shows) that just isn’t going to work.
I saw Marty Alen for free twice on Grand Princess. He was pretty good but I would not spend $10 to see him on a cruise ship. — Charles
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Who is Mary Allen ???
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I think that was a typo. It was Marty Allen.. He was part of the team Allen & Rossi (comedian and singer).
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Who is Mary Allen ???
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Now the disussion can start early, should we go to ala-carte > restaurant or main dining. Maybe to buffet area and eat in our shorts. Paid > show or free show,
This is one of the reasons that DH and I prefer Traditional Dining. When we book our cruise, we have made the decision where and when to eat dinner. At home it is always, lets eat out, where should we go, what type of food do we want, what time should we go? It’s nice to get away from that for a week, or more. Sue
Response:
I remember reading somewhere that the thing that really got them in the most financial trouble was the financing of the Windward and Dreamward. Evidently they got a horrible finance rate that cost them big money over time… though I’m not sure why they simply didn’t re-finance. –Tom – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Kristian, > May have depicted the circumstances with incorrect time line but basic facts > remain the same even as noted within your own post. > "And also, the Kloster family had been out of the company for years when > Star > took over. The company’s main shareholders at that time were Trygve Hegnar > and Kristian Siem, who turned the company around and made it profitable." > Which makes the point I was trying to make anyway, that Kloster had run > company into the ground. Hence " turn around " was necessitated. > From Finance Asia: Star Cruises had originally planned to acquire NCL > through a 60/40 joint venture with Carnival Corp, but the latter pulled out > of the deal in March, forcing Star Cruises to borrow more than it had > originally anticipated. > This cooresponds with how I recall it, initially this was a JOINT venture > betwen Star and Carnival and it was Carnival that decided to pull out of the > deal. > Whatever the finance was I really base my comments about Kloster running NCL > into the ground primarily on my experiences watching line sink, no pun > intended, as a regular passenger cruising twice annually on NCL in mid and > late 80’s. > George in NY > Try to get your facts right! NCL did not HAVE to be sold to the Star > group! > This was a hostile takeover. > And also, the Kloster family had been out of the company for years when > Star > took over. The company’s main shareholders at that time were Trygve Hegnar > and Kristian Siem, who turned the company around and made it profitable. > They were nowhere near bankruptcy. > Obviously, Carnival "could not" sit still and see this happening, and made > an offer to take over the company. > The NCL management found the offer far too low, and ivited Star to fight > off > Carnival. Star then, used the opportunity to buy the whole company. But > this was obviously not NCL’s plan.– The good thing about this story is > that > NCL is now stronger than ever, and a major competitor to Carnival! Exactly > what the infamous Mr. Arison and Carnival tried to avoid! > Kris > > Warren, > > We both know that there will be complaints no matter which way anything > is > > done. I still stand on my position that cruise lines will cut thier own > nose > > off to spite thier faces in next few years. Went to see the NEW concept > The > > World yesterday in NY. Obviously not a cruiship in the current > definition > > YET or will it be the future. Sell apartments for 2.5 million to 7 > million. > > Well according to thier page you can also RENT apartments for 7 day > cruise > > and so forth. An interesting note ( they have kitchen in apartment of > course > > allowing option ) they have four restaurants and a deli. They serve like > a > > restaurant, when you come in whatever time and all ala-carte. An > interesting > > option is a MEAL PLAN for $150 pp per day ( does include booze ) where > you > > get room service 24 hours a day and can eat in any of the restaurants or > > buffet. Maybe turn the whole cruise business into a time share business? > One > > thing is certain. Would not be a very hard concept to visualize with the > > recent trends in ala-cart and free-style dining to carry it one step > > further, meal plans. Not unheard of on land based packages so why not > carry > > it to cruising? Then show packages and so forth just like land based > > accomodations. The thing that the corporate geniuses will miss though is > why > > I would sail on a ship if it offers the same style as land but also > > sometimes rocks and rolls while offering smaller than land space? > > I would be willing to bet it is all coming in the future, almost > guarenteed. > > BTW The World is the concept and creation of the very same family that > ran > > NCL into the ground to where it had to be sold to Star or go bankrupt. > > George in NY > > > > I’m unfamiliar with Mary Allen. Is she a singer or musician? I don’t > > > > think there is any doubt that NCL desires to travel down the > "fee-style" > > > > cruising path. They will have to do so very slowly to wear down > > > > resistance IMO. I think this will be a "2 steps forward, 1 step > back" > > > > process. It will be interesting to watch the backlash and see how > they > > > > handle it. > > > > Jim > > > So Jim, let me ask you this: fares are at all time lows, sometimes > > > going as low as $250 for a one week cruise. If NCL (or any other line > > > for that matter) were to raise fares back up to levels that allowed > > > them to eliminate the extra-fee items and make enough money to remain > > > in business, would people book cabins or would there be threads posted > > > complaining about it? > > > Warren
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> His > legacy is the ruination of a great cruise line during a time that cruise > lines flourished and success should have been almost easy. This is why I get > just a little more than ticked off as I watch other lines start to lose the > concepts that made them popular once again. Simplicity is often times lost > on big business yet is actually the root of their business having become > big.
Exactly!!! You should post this in the Celebrity "The End Is In Sight" thread as well. –Tom
Response:
Kristian, May have depicted the circumstances with incorrect time line but basic facts remain the same even as noted within your own post. "And also, the Kloster family had been out of the company for years when Star > took over. The company’s main shareholders at that time were Trygve Hegnar > and Kristian Siem, who turned the company around and made it profitable."
Which makes the point I was trying to make anyway, that Kloster had run company into the ground. Hence " turn around " was necessitated. From Finance Asia: Star Cruises had originally planned to acquire NCL through a 60/40 joint venture with Carnival Corp, but the latter pulled out of the deal in March, forcing Star Cruises to borrow more than it had originally anticipated. This cooresponds with how I recall it, initially this was a JOINT venture betwen Star and Carnival and it was Carnival that decided to pull out of the deal. Whatever the finance was I really base my comments about Kloster running NCL into the ground primarily on my experiences watching line sink, no pun intended, as a regular passenger cruising twice annually on NCL in mid and late 80’s. George in NY
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Try to get your facts right! NCL did not HAVE to be sold to the Star group! > This was a hostile takeover. > And also, the Kloster family had been out of the company for years when Star > took over. The company’s main shareholders at that time were Trygve Hegnar > and Kristian Siem, who turned the company around and made it profitable. > They were nowhere near bankruptcy. > Obviously, Carnival "could not" sit still and see this happening, and made > an offer to take over the company. > The NCL management found the offer far too low, and ivited Star to fight off > Carnival. Star then, used the opportunity to buy the whole company. But > this was obviously not NCL’s plan.– The good thing about this story is that > NCL is now stronger than ever, and a major competitor to Carnival! Exactly > what the infamous Mr. Arison and Carnival tried to avoid! > Kris > Warren, > We both know that there will be complaints no matter which way anything is > done. I still stand on my position that cruise lines will cut thier own > nose > off to spite thier faces in next few years. Went to see the NEW concept > The > World yesterday in NY. Obviously not a cruiship in the current definition > YET or will it be the future. Sell apartments for 2.5 million to 7 > million. > Well according to thier page you can also RENT apartments for 7 day cruise > and so forth. An interesting note ( they have kitchen in apartment of > course > allowing option ) they have four restaurants and a deli. They serve like a > restaurant, when you come in whatever time and all ala-carte. An > interesting > option is a MEAL PLAN for $150 pp per day ( does include booze ) where you > get room service 24 hours a day and can eat in any of the restaurants or > buffet. Maybe turn the whole cruise business into a time share business? > One > thing is certain. Would not be a very hard concept to visualize with the > recent trends in ala-cart and free-style dining to carry it one step > further, meal plans. Not unheard of on land based packages so why not > carry > it to cruising? Then show packages and so forth just like land based > accomodations. The thing that the corporate geniuses will miss though is > why > I would sail on a ship if it offers the same style as land but also > sometimes rocks and rolls while offering smaller than land space? > I would be willing to bet it is all coming in the future, almost > guarenteed. > BTW The World is the concept and creation of the very same family that ran > NCL into the ground to where it had to be sold to Star or go bankrupt. > George in NY > > > I’m unfamiliar with Mary Allen. Is she a singer or musician? I don’t > > > think there is any doubt that NCL desires to travel down the > "fee-style" > > > cruising path. They will have to do so very slowly to wear down > > > resistance IMO. I think this will be a "2 steps forward, 1 step back" > > > process. It will be interesting to watch the backlash and see how they > > > handle it. > > > Jim > > So Jim, let me ask you this: fares are at all time lows, sometimes > > going as low as $250 for a one week cruise. If NCL (or any other line > > for that matter) were to raise fares back up to levels that allowed > > them to eliminate the extra-fee items and make enough money to remain > > in business, would people book cabins or would there be threads posted > > complaining about it? > > Warren
Response:
> I’m unfamiliar with Mary Allen. Is she a singer or musician? I don’t > think there is any doubt that NCL desires to travel down the "fee-style" > cruising path. They will have to do so very slowly to wear down > resistance IMO. I think this will be a "2 steps forward, 1 step back" > process. It will be interesting to watch the backlash and see how they > handle it. > Jim
So Jim, let me ask you this: fares are at all time lows, sometimes going as low as $250 for a one week cruise. If NCL (or any other line for that matter) were to raise fares back up to levels that allowed them to eliminate the extra-fee items and make enough money to remain in business, would people book cabins or would there be threads posted complaining about it? Warren
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"…would there be threads posted complaining about it?" Warren ….. You bet there will be complaints about higher fares and complaints about additional fees. Don’t misunderstand me. I’m not complaining. I think NCL is in an extremely difficult position. They are up against 3 tough competitors (soon to be 2 it seems if the reports about the FTC’s intentions are accurate —- incredible though it may be) who control 80% of the N. American market. NCL’s pricing power is nil. They may have no choice but to continue in the a la carte direction. I think the a la carte experiment on the newer ships has gone surprisingly well. But, I think the howls of protest from the traditionalists will be very loud as the concept moves beyond food. They will have to move gingerly and make a strategic retreat from time to time. Jim
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> So Jim, let me ask you this: fares are at all time lows, sometimes > going as low as $250 for a one week cruise. If NCL (or any other line > for that matter) were to raise fares back up to levels that allowed > them to eliminate the extra-fee items and make enough money to remain > in business, would people book cabins or would there be threads posted > complaining about it? > Warren
Yes, fares are at *almost* all time lows, and yes they are lower than the 80’s or whenever, but the cruise lines still like to promote themselves as "everything included", or "just about everything included" just like they did in the 80’s. What has changed is that today, you have MANY more opportunities to bring that low cruise fare right back up to the levels during the 80’s or even higher via spending onboard. Most cruise lines are not all-inclusive in the same way as they were in the 80’s. If certain cruise lines want to start charging for every little item (food, spas, shows, room service, etc.), fine, but then advertise it as such. Quit using the old cruise line standby, that "everything is included". Looking at the latest NCL brochure to Europe, all I read about is how wonderful all the choices will be, and that there are 10 restaurants on NORWEGIAN DAWN, but funny, there is no mention of the extra charges. Oh I’m sure there is somewhere, but I will have to go searching for it and no doubt it’s in the small print at the back of the brochure. To the average cruiser, they are thinking, "wow, 10 restaurants, this will be great". Then they get onboard and see a various range of charges to eat in these restaurants…. and the only one they can eat in for free will have long lines and less than stellar service. Once again, a false expectation that creates disappointment. Bottom line, the cruise lines that are still using 1980’s propaganda regarding cruise vacations are creating false expectations. If NCL or any other cruise line wants to go the way of "a la carte", fine……. but as I stated before, be upfront about it. These additional charges onboard without complete foreclosure beforehand will eventually bite the cruise industry in the a–. Passengers are still expecting the same wonderful all inclusive cruise experience they had (or heard about) in the 80’s, because the cruise industry (especially NCL – king of nickel and diming) have given them no reason not to. As a result of these low cruise fares, there is little doubt that some cruise lines may go the way of "a la carte", with NCL probably leading the pack and taking the lead from parent company Star Cruises. Other lines will probably still tout the all inclusiveness of their lines and fares may be adjusted accordingly. Right now, we seem to be in this gray area, which is where some lines are getting into trouble. There is the argument that all these additional fees are a good thing, and they keep the cruise price down and at the same time you are not paying for services you don’t want. Well, there is some truth to that. At the same time, cruising has a history of being a very good value *because* everything is included. People (including me) love to take cruises rather than a landside resort because I don’t have to pull out the old credit card (or cruise card) at every turn. For me personally, I would be willing to pay a bit more upfront to for-go the nickel and diming at every opportunity. Ernie Roller, Atlanta
Response:
Try to get your facts right! NCL did not HAVE to be sold to the Star group! This was a hostile takeover. And also, the Kloster family had been out of the company for years when Star took over. The company’s main shareholders at that time were Trygve Hegnar and Kristian Siem, who turned the company around and made it profitable. They were nowhere near bankruptcy. Obviously, Carnival "could not" sit still and see this happening, and made an offer to take over the company. The NCL management found the offer far too low, and ivited Star to fight off Carnival. Star then, used the opportunity to buy the whole company. But this was obviously not NCL’s plan.– The good thing about this story is that NCL is now stronger than ever, and a major competitor to Carnival! Exactly what the infamous Mr. Arison and Carnival tried to avoid! Kris – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Warren, > We both know that there will be complaints no matter which way anything is > done. I still stand on my position that cruise lines will cut thier own nose > off to spite thier faces in next few years. Went to see the NEW concept The > World yesterday in NY. Obviously not a cruiship in the current definition > YET or will it be the future. Sell apartments for 2.5 million to 7 million. > Well according to thier page you can also RENT apartments for 7 day cruise > and so forth. An interesting note ( they have kitchen in apartment of course > allowing option ) they have four restaurants and a deli. They serve like a > restaurant, when you come in whatever time and all ala-carte. An interesting > option is a MEAL PLAN for $150 pp per day ( does include booze ) where you > get room service 24 hours a day and can eat in any of the restaurants or > buffet. Maybe turn the whole cruise business into a time share business? One > thing is certain. Would not be a very hard concept to visualize with the > recent trends in ala-cart and free-style dining to carry it one step > further, meal plans. Not unheard of on land based packages so why not carry > it to cruising? Then show packages and so forth just like land based > accomodations. The thing that the corporate geniuses will miss though is why > I would sail on a ship if it offers the same style as land but also > sometimes rocks and rolls while offering smaller than land space? > I would be willing to bet it is all coming in the future, almost guarenteed. > BTW The World is the concept and creation of the very same family that ran > NCL into the ground to where it had to be sold to Star or go bankrupt. > George in NY > > I’m unfamiliar with Mary Allen. Is she a singer or musician? I don’t > > think there is any doubt that NCL desires to travel down the "fee-style" > > cruising path. They will have to do so very slowly to wear down > > resistance IMO. I think this will be a "2 steps forward, 1 step back" > > process. It will be interesting to watch the backlash and see how they > > handle it. > > Jim > So Jim, let me ask you this: fares are at all time lows, sometimes > going as low as $250 for a one week cruise. If NCL (or any other line > for that matter) were to raise fares back up to levels that allowed > them to eliminate the extra-fee items and make enough money to remain > in business, would people book cabins or would there be threads posted > complaining about it? > Warren
Response:
Hi Raoul, You are correct regarding Mr. Kloster and I admit that I harbor some animosity concerning his driving NCL into the garbage heap. NCL was our first cruise in 1984 onboard the NCL Skyward the occasion being our honeymoon. NCL was a great line with a compliment of very happy workers. The staff readily attested that they would not wish to work for any other line because NCL was considerate to it’s staff and crew. For several years we sailed almost every ship they had in service and watched staff lose their dedication and become bitter about how Knut was handling the line. I can remember placards in the cabins describing the concept of what is now The World and it seemed out of place and starkly unrealistic. Then it pictured a ship as large as a small city with three major high rises, airport, shopping center, and so forth. Kloster appears to have spent much of his time and the lines resources attempting to develop this grandiose idea. In a way seeing the final WORLD, far from being a credit to his idea, demonstrates how pitiful it really became in the final assessment. The World is, after all, little more than a mid-range ship with larger cabins and a different financing method. Not exactly a metropolis at sea that he envisaged. His legacy is the ruination of a great cruise line during a time that cruise lines flourished and success should have been almost easy. This is why I get just a little more than ticked off as I watch other lines start to lose the concepts that made them popular once again. Simplicity is often times lost on big business yet is actually the root of their business having become big. A conceptual feeling that pertains to myself and many of the men that were clients when I was involved with cruise bookings was EASY, and SIMPLE. I found almost without an exception that men were driven to cruise by woman who insisted. Yet upon return from the first cruise it was the men that most often were looking to rebook. To me the reasoning was simple. The woman loved the ambiance, service, and the chance to have someone waiting on them for a change. The men loved having a happy woman while enjoying the ease of the traveling. No dipping into the pocket every ten minutes or having to concern themselves with having enough cash to get through the whole trip. Not having to make decisions on how and when to eat, how or when to set up entertainment and so forth. Another major plus was being able for hard working men and woman to get away, I mean really away, from the rigors of their everyday professions. This, to me, is why so many returned year after year to cruise again. Now lines have made every attempt to become merely another horrid traveling experience. Now the disussion can start early, should we go to ala-carte restaurant or main dining. Maybe to buffet area and eat in our shorts. Paid show or free show, real coffee or junk coffee for free. In the meantime I can be assailed by CNN in cabin or what lines infomercials on TV. I can spend quality time with my internet connection rather than the wife while I am cruising. I can call the office from the cabin at a reasonable rate so they can tell me all their problems ( being retired scratch that and impose married kids can pass on their miseries for the day ) . I can eat at a fast food joint just like at my mall, in fact on many ships I can feel just like I am at my mall when I hit the shopping area. I can decide whether to watch the so-so movie on TV in cabin or pay for view at 9.95. Maybe even gamble for a while in cabin with hopes of making enough to pay for the pay for views movies and ala-carte dinner. Another situation is having increased the pax capacity of ships you can also arrive at that wonderful island destination along with 12,000 of your nearest and dearest fellow citizens at the same time. George in NY
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Hi George! > I wouldn’t call it "the same family" but probably "the same guy" – > Knut Kloster Jr. Until his father stepped down, NCL was doing very > well if I remember correctly. > Regards from Germany, > Raoul Fiebig > "Das Ruderhaus": http://www.ruderhaus.de/ > "CruiseReviews.com": http://www.cruisereviews.com/
Response:
> Went to see the NEW concept The > World yesterday in NY. Obviously not a cruiship in the current definition > YET or will it be the future. > <SNIP> > I would be willing to bet it is all coming in the future, almost guarenteed. > BTW The World is the concept and creation of the very same family that ran > NCL into the ground to where it had to be sold to Star or go bankrupt.
The NY Times said that "The World" is the only ship out there totally filled with Type A personalities. All, self made millionaires with aggressive, damn the torpedoes, full steam ahead personalities. Apparently quiet the unique passenger "mix" or perhaps "lack of mix". Like being on a ship with 1000 George Steinbrenners (NY Yankees owner). –Tom
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>Like being on a ship with 1000 George Steinbrenners (NY Yankees owner).
Hmm … makes service staff rank up stress levels of air traffic controllers … In the Village …. I am not a number … I am a free man !!!!
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>BTW The World is the concept and creation of the very same family that ran >NCL into the ground to where it had to be sold to Star or go bankrupt.
Hi George! I wouldn’t call it "the same family" but probably "the same guy" – Knut Kloster Jr. Until his father stepped down, NCL was doing very well if I remember correctly. Regards from Germany, Raoul Fiebig "Das Ruderhaus": http://www.ruderhaus.de/ "CruiseReviews.com": http://www.cruisereviews.com/
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I was on the Aug 25th sailing of the NCL Star. I did not go the Marty Allen show but I went to the no charge show every night. They were good, really good. One was so good spectators stood and cheered. I ate dinner every night in one of the no charge dinning rooms. Two times in each of two of them and three times in another. The food was good and the service was friendly and efficient. The staff in general,was exceptionally friendly and courteous. I am an experienced cruiser and this was one of the better cruise experiences I”ve had. Ron Davies
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I couldn’t resist reposting this excerpt from a recent NORWEGIAN STAR Hawaii > review. The entire review can be found at cruise-critic under NCL. > There has been a lot of talk lately about cruise lines nickel and diming the > customer to death. Remember when NCL charged $2 for room service quite a > few years back? Well, I think this tops even that! > As per the review, people are starting to call NCL’s FreeStyle Cruising > "Fee-Style Cruising". In this case, I think it’s appropriate. Imagine > charging for the evening show! > The excerpt is as follows: > "My biggest complain was a show at 10:30 one night featuring Mary Allen. > They charged $10.00 for it. I did not go, just on principle! The comment on > ship was it will soon be called FeeStyle Cruising." > When I was onboard the NORWEGIAN STAR during an inaugural last year, I > thought the authentic looking marques-style ticket booths outside the main > showlounge were quite cute. I guess now I understand their purpose. This > certainly takes "extra fee" amenities to a new low! > Ernie Roller, > Atlanta
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Actually, it seems to me that there is wide variety right now in how cruise ships and cruise lines handle things. Some have a lot of things you can "upgrade" your experience with (especially NCL). Others have limited what you might have to shell out extra and charge you more up front. Some allow you to dress formally on specific days and try to encourage the entire ship community to be in the spirit of that. Others don’t have you dress formally at all, others give you total choice. (On NCL you can show up at the dining room on formal night in casual clothes and be seated and served. They try to keep formally dressed folks together and casually dressed folks together. As someone who enjoys dressing up, it was plenty elegant for me, while folks in khakis and polos were also comfortable. This is (IMHO) a good thing as long as some of the folks who are charging more but presenting a mroe all-inclusive product don’t stop this. The specialty restaurants on HAL are a concern. Also it becomes problematic when only one line serves a region. But I think the variety is good. Julie – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Warren, > We both know that there will be complaints no matter which way anything is > done. I still stand on my position that cruise lines will cut thier own nose > off to spite thier faces in next few years. Went to see the NEW concept The > World yesterday in NY. Obviously not a cruiship in the current definition > YET or will it be the future. Sell apartments for 2.5 million to 7 million. > Well according to thier page you can also RENT apartments for 7 day cruise > and so forth. An interesting note ( they have kitchen in apartment of course > allowing option ) they have four restaurants and a deli. They serve like a > restaurant, when you come in whatever time and all ala-carte. An interesting > option is a MEAL PLAN for $150 pp per day ( does include booze ) where you > get room service 24 hours a day and can eat in any of the restaurants or > buffet. Maybe turn the whole cruise business into a time share business? One > thing is certain. Would not be a very hard concept to visualize with the > recent trends in ala-cart and free-style dining to carry it one step > further, meal plans. Not unheard of on land based packages so why not carry > it to cruising? Then show packages and so forth just like land based > accomodations. The thing that the corporate geniuses will miss though is why > I would sail on a ship if it offers the same style as land but also > sometimes rocks and rolls while offering smaller than land space? > I would be willing to bet it is all coming in the future, almost guarenteed. > BTW The World is the concept and creation of the very same family that ran > NCL into the ground to where it had to be sold to Star or go bankrupt. > George in NY > > I’m unfamiliar with Mary Allen. Is she a singer or musician? I don’t > > think there is any doubt that NCL desires to travel down the "fee-style" > > cruising path. They will have to do so very slowly to wear down > > resistance IMO. I think this will be a "2 steps forward, 1 step back" > > process. It will be interesting to watch the backlash and see how they > > handle it. > > Jim > So Jim, let me ask you this: fares are at all time lows, sometimes > going as low as $250 for a one week cruise. If NCL (or any other line > for that matter) were to raise fares back up to levels that allowed > them to eliminate the extra-fee items and make enough money to remain > in business, would people book cabins or would there be threads posted > complaining about it? > Warren
– Julie Check out my Traval Pages (non-commercial) at http://www.dragonsholm.org/travel.htm
Response:
Warren, We both know that there will be complaints no matter which way anything is done. I still stand on my position that cruise lines will cut thier own nose off to spite thier faces in next few years. Went to see the NEW concept The World yesterday in NY. Obviously not a cruiship in the current definition YET or will it be the future. Sell apartments for 2.5 million to 7 million. Well according to thier page you can also RENT apartments for 7 day cruise and so forth. An interesting note ( they have kitchen in apartment of course allowing option ) they have four restaurants and a deli. They serve like a restaurant, when you come in whatever time and all ala-carte. An interesting option is a MEAL PLAN for $150 pp per day ( does include booze ) where you get room service 24 hours a day and can eat in any of the restaurants or buffet. Maybe turn the whole cruise business into a time share business? One thing is certain. Would not be a very hard concept to visualize with the recent trends in ala-cart and free-style dining to carry it one step further, meal plans. Not unheard of on land based packages so why not carry it to cruising? Then show packages and so forth just like land based accomodations. The thing that the corporate geniuses will miss though is why I would sail on a ship if it offers the same style as land but also sometimes rocks and rolls while offering smaller than land space? I would be willing to bet it is all coming in the future, almost guarenteed. BTW The World is the concept and creation of the very same family that ran NCL into the ground to where it had to be sold to Star or go bankrupt. George in NY
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I’m unfamiliar with Mary Allen. Is she a singer or musician? I don’t > think there is any doubt that NCL desires to travel down the "fee-style" > cruising path. They will have to do so very slowly to wear down > resistance IMO. I think this will be a "2 steps forward, 1 step back" > process. It will be interesting to watch the backlash and see how they > handle it. > Jim > So Jim, let me ask you this: fares are at all time lows, sometimes > going as low as $250 for a one week cruise. If NCL (or any other line > for that matter) were to raise fares back up to levels that allowed > them to eliminate the extra-fee items and make enough money to remain > in business, would people book cabins or would there be threads posted > complaining about it? > Warren
Response:
Didn’t I just mention how long before they start charging for shows etc. in a recent post? I must admit this surprised even me, didn’t realize anyone had already done it. George in NY
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I couldn’t resist reposting this excerpt from a recent NORWEGIAN STAR Hawaii > review. The entire review can be found at cruise-critic under NCL. > There has been a lot of talk lately about cruise lines nickel and diming the > customer to death. Remember when NCL charged $2 for room service quite a > few years back? Well, I think this tops even that! > As per the review, people are starting to call NCL’s FreeStyle Cruising > "Fee-Style Cruising". In this case, I think it’s appropriate. Imagine > charging for the evening show! > The excerpt is as follows: > "My biggest complain was a show at 10:30 one night featuring Mary Allen. > They charged $10.00 for it. I did not go, just on principle! The comment on > ship was it will soon be called FeeStyle Cruising." > When I was onboard the NORWEGIAN STAR during an inaugural last year, I > thought the authentic looking marques-style ticket booths outside the main > showlounge were quite cute. I guess now I understand their purpose. This > certainly takes "extra fee" amenities to a new low! > Ernie Roller, > Atlanta
Response:
I don’t >think there is any doubt that NCL desires to travel down the "fee-style" >cruising path. They will have to do so very slowly to wear down >resistance IMO. I think this will be a "2 steps forward, 1 step back" >process. It will be interesting to watch the backlash and see how they >handle it. >Jim
I think it is one step forward and 2 steps back. This started, in my view, when Princess started charging for ice cream. For one, I would much rather pay a fixed fee up front, have the same waiter every night, tip what I feel appropriate rather than having tips added to my bill, and have everything practical included. People will book a Norwegian ship to save 50 bucks in cruise fare, and end up thinking that cruising is a rip-off rather than the fun we all know it really is. Am I the only one that thinks this way?
Response:
I’m unfamiliar with Mary Allen. Is she a singer or musician? I don’t think there is any doubt that NCL desires to travel down the "fee-style" cruising path. They will have to do so very slowly to wear down resistance IMO. I think this will be a "2 steps forward, 1 step back" process. It will be interesting to watch the backlash and see how they handle it. Jim
Response:
I couldn’t resist reposting this excerpt from a recent NORWEGIAN STAR Hawaii review. The entire review can be found at cruise-critic under NCL. There has been a lot of talk lately about cruise lines nickel and diming the customer to death. Remember when NCL charged $2 for room service quite a few years back? Well, I think this tops even that! As per the review, people are starting to call NCL’s FreeStyle Cruising "Fee-Style Cruising". In this case, I think it’s appropriate. Imagine charging for the evening show! The excerpt is as follows: "My biggest complain was a show at 10:30 one night featuring Mary Allen. They charged $10.00 for it. I did not go, just on principle! The comment on ship was it will soon be called FeeStyle Cruising." When I was onboard the NORWEGIAN STAR during an inaugural last year, I thought the authentic looking marques-style ticket booths outside the main showlounge were quite cute. I guess now I understand their purpose. This certainly takes "extra fee" amenities to a new low! Ernie Roller, Atlanta
Response:
I couldn’t resist reposting this excerpt from a recent NORWEGIAN STAR Hawaii review. The entire review can be found at cruise-critic under NCL. There has been a lot of talk lately about cruise lines nickel and diming the customer to death. Remember when NCL charged $2 for room service quite a few years back? Well, I think this tops even that! As per the review, people are starting to call NCL’s FreeStyle Cruising "Fee-Style Cruising". In this case, I think it’s appropriate. Imagine charging for the evening show! The excerpt is as follows: "My biggest complain was a show at 10:30 one night featuring Mary Allen. They charged $10.00 for it. I did not go, just on principle! The comment on ship was it will soon be called FeeStyle Cruising." When I was onboard the NORWEGIAN STAR during an inaugural last year, I thought the authentic looking marques-style ticket booths outside the main showlounge were quite cute. I guess now I understand their purpose. This certainly takes "extra fee" amenities to a new low! Ernie Roller, Atlanta
Response:
I’m unfamiliar with Mary Allen. Is she a singer or musician? I don’t think there is any doubt that NCL desires to travel down the "fee-style" cruising path. They will have to do so very slowly to wear down resistance IMO. I think this will be a "2 steps forward, 1 step back" process. It will be interesting to watch the backlash and see how they handle it. Jim
Response:
Didn’t I just mention how long before they start charging for shows etc. in a recent post? I must admit this surprised even me, didn’t realize anyone had already done it. George in NY
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I couldn’t resist reposting this excerpt from a recent NORWEGIAN STAR Hawaii > review. The entire review can be found at cruise-critic under NCL. > There has been a lot of talk lately about cruise lines nickel and diming the > customer to death. Remember when NCL charged $2 for room service quite a > few years back? Well, I think this tops even that! > As per the review, people are starting to call NCL’s FreeStyle Cruising > "Fee-Style Cruising". In this case, I think it’s appropriate. Imagine > charging for the evening show! > The excerpt is as follows: > "My biggest complain was a show at 10:30 one night featuring Mary Allen. > They charged $10.00 for it. I did not go, just on principle! The comment on > ship was it will soon be called FeeStyle Cruising." > When I was onboard the NORWEGIAN STAR during an inaugural last year, I > thought the authentic looking marques-style ticket booths outside the main > showlounge were quite cute. I guess now I understand their purpose. This > certainly takes "extra fee" amenities to a new low! > Ernie Roller, > Atlanta
Response:
I don’t >think there is any doubt that NCL desires to travel down the "fee-style" >cruising path. They will have to do so very slowly to wear down >resistance IMO. I think this will be a "2 steps forward, 1 step back" >process. It will be interesting to watch the backlash and see how they >handle it. >Jim
I think it is one step forward and 2 steps back. This started, in my view, when Princess started charging for ice cream. For one, I would much rather pay a fixed fee up front, have the same waiter every night, tip what I feel appropriate rather than having tips added to my bill, and have everything practical included. People will book a Norwegian ship to save 50 bucks in cruise fare, and end up thinking that cruising is a rip-off rather than the fun we all know it really is. Am I the only one that thinks this way?
Response:
> I’m unfamiliar with Mary Allen. Is she a singer or musician? I don’t > think there is any doubt that NCL desires to travel down the "fee-style" > cruising path. They will have to do so very slowly to wear down > resistance IMO. I think this will be a "2 steps forward, 1 step back" > process. It will be interesting to watch the backlash and see how they > handle it. > Jim
So Jim, let me ask you this: fares are at all time lows, sometimes going as low as $250 for a one week cruise. If NCL (or any other line for that matter) were to raise fares back up to levels that allowed them to eliminate the extra-fee items and make enough money to remain in business, would people book cabins or would there be threads posted complaining about it? Warren
Response:
"…would there be threads posted complaining about it?" Warren ….. You bet there will be complaints about higher fares and complaints about additional fees. Don’t misunderstand me. I’m not complaining. I think NCL is in an extremely difficult position. They are up against 3 tough competitors (soon to be 2 it seems if the reports about the FTC’s intentions are accurate —- incredible though it may be) who control 80% of the N. American market. NCL’s pricing power is nil. They may have no choice but to continue in the a la carte direction. I think the a la carte experiment on the newer ships has gone surprisingly well. But, I think the howls of protest from the traditionalists will be very loud as the concept moves beyond food. They will have to move gingerly and make a strategic retreat from time to time. Jim
Response:
> So Jim, let me ask you this: fares are at all time lows, sometimes > going as low as $250 for a one week cruise. If NCL (or any other line > for that matter) were to raise fares back up to levels that allowed > them to eliminate the extra-fee items and make enough money to remain > in business, would people book cabins or would there be threads posted > complaining about it? > Warren
Yes, fares are at *almost* all time lows, and yes they are lower than the 80’s or whenever, but the cruise lines still like to promote themselves as "everything included", or "just about everything included" just like they did in the 80’s. What has changed is that today, you have MANY more opportunities to bring that low cruise fare right back up to the levels during the 80’s or even higher via spending onboard. Most cruise lines are not all-inclusive in the same way as they were in the 80’s. If certain cruise lines want to start charging for every little item (food, spas, shows, room service, etc.), fine, but then advertise it as such. Quit using the old cruise line standby, that "everything is included". Looking at the latest NCL brochure to Europe, all I read about is how wonderful all the choices will be, and that there are 10 restaurants on NORWEGIAN DAWN, but funny, there is no mention of the extra charges. Oh I’m sure there is somewhere, but I will have to go searching for it and no doubt it’s in the small print at the back of the brochure. To the average cruiser, they are thinking, "wow, 10 restaurants, this will be great". Then they get onboard and see a various range of charges to eat in these restaurants…. and the only one they can eat in for free will have long lines and less than stellar service. Once again, a false expectation that creates disappointment. Bottom line, the cruise lines that are still using 1980’s propaganda regarding cruise vacations are creating false expectations. If NCL or any other cruise line wants to go the way of "a la carte", fine……. but as I stated before, be upfront about it. These additional charges onboard without complete foreclosure beforehand will eventually bite the cruise industry in the a–. Passengers are still expecting the same wonderful all inclusive cruise experience they had (or heard about) in the 80’s, because the cruise industry (especially NCL – king of nickel and diming) have given them no reason not to. As a result of these low cruise fares, there is little doubt that some cruise lines may go the way of "a la carte", with NCL probably leading the pack and taking the lead from parent company Star Cruises. Other lines will probably still tout the all inclusiveness of their lines and fares may be adjusted accordingly. Right now, we seem to be in this gray area, which is where some lines are getting into trouble. There is the argument that all these additional fees are a good thing, and they keep the cruise price down and at the same time you are not paying for services you don’t want. Well, there is some truth to that. At the same time, cruising has a history of being a very good value *because* everything is included. People (including me) love to take cruises rather than a landside resort because I don’t have to pull out the old credit card (or cruise card) at every turn. For me personally, I would be willing to pay a bit more upfront to for-go the nickel and diming at every opportunity. Ernie Roller, Atlanta
Response:
Warren, We both know that there will be complaints no matter which way anything is done. I still stand on my position that cruise lines will cut thier own nose off to spite thier faces in next few years. Went to see the NEW concept The World yesterday in NY. Obviously not a cruiship in the current definition YET or will it be the future. Sell apartments for 2.5 million to 7 million. Well according to thier page you can also RENT apartments for 7 day cruise and so forth. An interesting note ( they have kitchen in apartment of course allowing option ) they have four restaurants and a deli. They serve like a restaurant, when you come in whatever time and all ala-carte. An interesting option is a MEAL PLAN for $150 pp per day ( does include booze ) where you get room service 24 hours a day and can eat in any of the restaurants or buffet. Maybe turn the whole cruise business into a time share business? One thing is certain. Would not be a very hard concept to visualize with the recent trends in ala-cart and free-style dining to carry it one step further, meal plans. Not unheard of on land based packages so why not carry it to cruising? Then show packages and so forth just like land based accomodations. The thing that the corporate geniuses will miss though is why I would sail on a ship if it offers the same style as land but also sometimes rocks and rolls while offering smaller than land space? I would be willing to bet it is all coming in the future, almost guarenteed. BTW The World is the concept and creation of the very same family that ran NCL into the ground to where it had to be sold to Star or go bankrupt. George in NY
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I’m unfamiliar with Mary Allen. Is she a singer or musician? I don’t > think there is any doubt that NCL desires to travel down the "fee-style" > cruising path. They will have to do so very slowly to wear down > resistance IMO. I think this will be a "2 steps forward, 1 step back" > process. It will be interesting to watch the backlash and see how they > handle it. > Jim > So Jim, let me ask you this: fares are at all time lows, sometimes > going as low as $250 for a one week cruise. If NCL (or any other line > for that matter) were to raise fares back up to levels that allowed > them to eliminate the extra-fee items and make enough money to remain > in business, would people book cabins or would there be threads posted > complaining about it? > Warren
Response:
Actually, it seems to me that there is wide variety right now in how cruise ships and cruise lines handle things. Some have a lot of things you can "upgrade" your experience with (especially NCL). Others have limited what you might have to shell out extra and charge you more up front. Some allow you to dress formally on specific days and try to encourage the entire ship community to be in the spirit of that. Others don’t have you dress formally at all, others give you total choice. (On NCL you can show up at the dining room on formal night in casual clothes and be seated and served. They try to keep formally dressed folks together and casually dressed folks together. As someone who enjoys dressing up, it was plenty elegant for me, while folks in khakis and polos were also comfortable. This is (IMHO) a good thing as long as some of the folks who are charging more but presenting a mroe all-inclusive product don’t stop this. The specialty restaurants on HAL are a concern. Also it becomes problematic when only one line serves a region. But I think the variety is good. Julie – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Warren, > We both know that there will be complaints no matter which way anything is > done. I still stand on my position that cruise lines will cut thier own nose > off to spite thier faces in next few years. Went to see the NEW concept The > World yesterday in NY. Obviously not a cruiship in the current definition > YET or will it be the future. Sell apartments for 2.5 million to 7 million. > Well according to thier page you can also RENT apartments for 7 day cruise > and so forth. An interesting note ( they have kitchen in apartment of course > allowing option ) they have four restaurants and a deli. They serve like a > restaurant, when you come in whatever time and all ala-carte. An interesting > option is a MEAL PLAN for $150 pp per day ( does include booze ) where you > get room service 24 hours a day and can eat in any of the restaurants or > buffet. Maybe turn the whole cruise business into a time share business? One > thing is certain. Would not be a very hard concept to visualize with the > recent trends in ala-cart and free-style dining to carry it one step > further, meal plans. Not unheard of on land based packages so why not carry > it to cruising? Then show packages and so forth just like land based > accomodations. The thing that the corporate geniuses will miss though is why > I would sail on a ship if it offers the same style as land but also > sometimes rocks and rolls while offering smaller than land space? > I would be willing to bet it is all coming in the future, almost guarenteed. > BTW The World is the concept and creation of the very same family that ran > NCL into the ground to where it had to be sold to Star or go bankrupt. > George in NY > > I’m unfamiliar with Mary Allen. Is she a singer or musician? I don’t > > think there is any doubt that NCL desires to travel down the "fee-style" > > cruising path. They will have to do so very slowly to wear down > > resistance IMO. I think this will be a "2 steps forward, 1 step back" > > process. It will be interesting to watch the backlash and see how they > > handle it. > > Jim > So Jim, let me ask you this: fares are at all time lows, sometimes > going as low as $250 for a one week cruise. If NCL (or any other line > for that matter) were to raise fares back up to levels that allowed > them to eliminate the extra-fee items and make enough money to remain > in business, would people book cabins or would there be threads posted > complaining about it? > Warren
– Julie Check out my Traval Pages (non-commercial) at http://www.dragonsholm.org/travel.htm
Response:
> Went to see the NEW concept The > World yesterday in NY. Obviously not a cruiship in the current definition > YET or will it be the future. > <SNIP> > I would be willing to bet it is all coming in the future, almost guarenteed. > BTW The World is the concept and creation of the very same family that ran > NCL into the ground to where it had to be sold to Star or go bankrupt.
The NY Times said that "The World" is the only ship out there totally filled with Type A personalities. All, self made millionaires with aggressive, damn the torpedoes, full steam ahead personalities. Apparently quiet the unique passenger "mix" or perhaps "lack of mix". Like being on a ship with 1000 George Steinbrenners (NY Yankees owner). –Tom
Response:
>Like being on a ship with 1000 George Steinbrenners (NY Yankees owner).
Hmm … makes service staff rank up stress levels of air traffic controllers … In the Village …. I am not a number … I am a free man !!!!
Response:
>BTW The World is the concept and creation of the very same family that ran >NCL into the ground to where it had to be sold to Star or go bankrupt.
Hi George! I wouldn’t call it "the same family" but probably "the same guy" – Knut Kloster Jr. Until his father stepped down, NCL was doing very well if I remember correctly. Regards from Germany, Raoul Fiebig "Das Ruderhaus": http://www.ruderhaus.de/ "CruiseReviews.com": http://www.cruisereviews.com/
Response:
I was on the Aug 25th sailing of the NCL Star. I did not go the Marty Allen show but I went to the no charge show every night. They were good, really good. One was so good spectators stood and cheered. I ate dinner every night in one of the no charge dinning rooms. Two times in each of two of them and three times in another. The food was good and the service was friendly and efficient. The staff in general,was exceptionally friendly and courteous. I am an experienced cruiser and this was one of the better cruise experiences I”ve had. Ron Davies
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I couldn’t resist reposting this excerpt from a recent NORWEGIAN STAR Hawaii > review. The entire review can be found at cruise-critic under NCL. > There has been a lot of talk lately about cruise lines nickel and diming the > customer to death. Remember when NCL charged $2 for room service quite a > few years back? Well, I think this tops even that! > As per the review, people are starting to call NCL’s FreeStyle Cruising > "Fee-Style Cruising". In this case, I think it’s appropriate. Imagine > charging for the evening show! > The excerpt is as follows: > "My biggest complain was a show at 10:30 one night featuring Mary Allen. > They charged $10.00 for it. I did not go, just on principle! The comment on > ship was it will soon be called FeeStyle Cruising." > When I was onboard the NORWEGIAN STAR during an inaugural last year, I > thought the authentic looking marques-style ticket booths outside the main > showlounge were quite cute. I guess now I understand their purpose. This > certainly takes "extra fee" amenities to a new low! > Ernie Roller, > Atlanta
Response:
Hi Raoul, You are correct regarding Mr. Kloster and I admit that I harbor some animosity concerning his driving NCL into the garbage heap. NCL was our first cruise in 1984 onboard the NCL Skyward the occasion being our honeymoon. NCL was a great line with a compliment of very happy workers. The staff readily attested that they would not wish to work for any other line because NCL was considerate to it’s staff and crew. For several years we sailed almost every ship they had in service and watched staff lose their dedication and become bitter about how Knut was handling the line. I can remember placards in the cabins describing the concept of what is now The World and it seemed out of place and starkly unrealistic. Then it pictured a ship as large as a small city with three major high rises, airport, shopping center, and so forth. Kloster appears to have spent much of his time and the lines resources attempting to develop this grandiose idea. In a way seeing the final WORLD, far from being a credit to his idea, demonstrates how pitiful it really became in the final assessment. The World is, after all, little more than a mid-range ship with larger cabins and a different financing method. Not exactly a metropolis at sea that he envisaged. His legacy is the ruination of a great cruise line during a time that cruise lines flourished and success should have been almost easy. This is why I get just a little more than ticked off as I watch other lines start to lose the concepts that made them popular once again. Simplicity is often times lost on big business yet is actually the root of their business having become big. A conceptual feeling that pertains to myself and many of the men that were clients when I was involved with cruise bookings was EASY, and SIMPLE. I found almost without an exception that men were driven to cruise by woman who insisted. Yet upon return from the first cruise it was the men that most often were looking to rebook. To me the reasoning was simple. The woman loved the ambiance, service, and the chance to have someone waiting on them for a change. The men loved having a happy woman while enjoying the ease of the traveling. No dipping into the pocket every ten minutes or having to concern themselves with having enough cash to get through the whole trip. Not having to make decisions on how and when to eat, how or when to set up entertainment and so forth. Another major plus was being able for hard working men and woman to get away, I mean really away, from the rigors of their everyday professions. This, to me, is why so many returned year after year to cruise again. Now lines have made every attempt to become merely another horrid traveling experience. Now the disussion can start early, should we go to ala-carte restaurant or main dining. Maybe to buffet area and eat in our shorts. Paid show or free show, real coffee or junk coffee for free. In the meantime I can be assailed by CNN in cabin or what lines infomercials on TV. I can spend quality time with my internet connection rather than the wife while I am cruising. I can call the office from the cabin at a reasonable rate so they can tell me all their problems ( being retired scratch that and impose married kids can pass on their miseries for the day ) . I can eat at a fast food joint just like at my mall, in fact on many ships I can feel just like I am at my mall when I hit the shopping area. I can decide whether to watch the so-so movie on TV in cabin or pay for view at 9.95. Maybe even gamble for a while in cabin with hopes of making enough to pay for the pay for views movies and ala-carte dinner. Another situation is having increased the pax capacity of ships you can also arrive at that wonderful island destination along with 12,000 of your nearest and dearest fellow citizens at the same time. George in NY
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Hi George! > I wouldn’t call it "the same family" but probably "the same guy" – > Knut Kloster Jr. Until his father stepped down, NCL was doing very > well if I remember correctly. > Regards from Germany, > Raoul Fiebig > "Das Ruderhaus": http://www.ruderhaus.de/ > "CruiseReviews.com": http://www.cruisereviews.com/
Response:
Try to get your facts right! NCL did not HAVE to be sold to the Star group! This was a hostile takeover. And also, the Kloster family had been out of the company for years when Star took over. The company’s main shareholders at that time were Trygve Hegnar and Kristian Siem, who turned the company around and made it profitable. They were nowhere near bankruptcy. Obviously, Carnival "could not" sit still and see this happening, and made an offer to take over the company. The NCL management found the offer far too low, and ivited Star to fight off Carnival. Star then, used the opportunity to buy the whole company. But this was obviously not NCL’s plan.– The good thing about this story is that NCL is now stronger than ever, and a major competitor to Carnival! Exactly what the infamous Mr. Arison and Carnival tried to avoid! Kris – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Warren, > We both know that there will be complaints no matter which way anything is > done. I still stand on my position that cruise lines will cut thier own nose > off to spite thier faces in next few years. Went to see the NEW concept The > World yesterday in NY. Obviously not a cruiship in the current definition > YET or will it be the future. Sell apartments for 2.5 million to 7 million. > Well according to thier page you can also RENT apartments for 7 day cruise > and so forth. An interesting note ( they have kitchen in apartment of course > allowing option ) they have four restaurants and a deli. They serve like a > restaurant, when you come in whatever time and all ala-carte. An interesting > option is a MEAL PLAN for $150 pp per day ( does include booze ) where you > get room service 24 hours a day and can eat in any of the restaurants or > buffet. Maybe turn the whole cruise business into a time share business? One > thing is certain. Would not be a very hard concept to visualize with the > recent trends in ala-cart and free-style dining to carry it one step > further, meal plans. Not unheard of on land based packages so why not carry > it to cruising? Then show packages and so forth just like land based > accomodations. The thing that the corporate geniuses will miss though is why > I would sail on a ship if it offers the same style as land but also > sometimes rocks and rolls while offering smaller than land space? > I would be willing to bet it is all coming in the future, almost guarenteed. > BTW The World is the concept and creation of the very same family that ran > NCL into the ground to where it had to be sold to Star or go bankrupt. > George in NY > > I’m unfamiliar with Mary Allen. Is she a singer or musician? I don’t > > think there is any doubt that NCL desires to travel down the "fee-style" > > cruising path. They will have to do so very slowly to wear down > > resistance IMO. I think this will be a "2 steps forward, 1 step back" > > process. It will be interesting to watch the backlash and see how they > > handle it. > > Jim > So Jim, let me ask you this: fares are at all time lows, sometimes > going as low as $250 for a one week cruise. If NCL (or any other line > for that matter) were to raise fares back up to levels that allowed > them to eliminate the extra-fee items and make enough money to remain > in business, would people book cabins or would there be threads posted > complaining about it? > Warren
Response:
> His > legacy is the ruination of a great cruise line during a time that cruise > lines flourished and success should have been almost easy. This is why I get > just a little more than ticked off as I watch other lines start to lose the > concepts that made them popular once again. Simplicity is often times lost > on big business yet is actually the root of their business having become > big.
Exactly!!! You should post this in the Celebrity "The End Is In Sight" thread as well. –Tom
Response:
Kristian, May have depicted the circumstances with incorrect time line but basic facts remain the same even as noted within your own post. "And also, the Kloster family had been out of the company for years when Star > took over. The company’s main shareholders at that time were Trygve Hegnar > and Kristian Siem, who turned the company around and made it profitable."
Which makes the point I was trying to make anyway, that Kloster had run company into the ground. Hence " turn around " was necessitated. From Finance Asia: Star Cruises had originally planned to acquire NCL through a 60/40 joint venture with Carnival Corp, but the latter pulled out of the deal in March, forcing Star Cruises to borrow more than it had originally anticipated. This cooresponds with how I recall it, initially this was a JOINT venture betwen Star and Carnival and it was Carnival that decided to pull out of the deal. Whatever the finance was I really base my comments about Kloster running NCL into the ground primarily on my experiences watching line sink, no pun intended, as a regular passenger cruising twice annually on NCL in mid and late 80’s. George in NY
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Try to get your facts right! NCL did not HAVE to be sold to the Star group! > This was a hostile takeover. > And also, the Kloster family had been out of the company for years when Star > took over. The company’s main shareholders at that time were Trygve Hegnar > and Kristian Siem, who turned the company around and made it profitable. > They were nowhere near bankruptcy. > Obviously, Carnival "could not" sit still and see this happening, and made > an offer to take over the company. > The NCL management found the offer far too low, and ivited Star to fight off > Carnival. Star then, used the opportunity to buy the whole company. But > this was obviously not NCL’s plan.– The good thing about this story is that > NCL is now stronger than ever, and a major competitor to Carnival! Exactly > what the infamous Mr. Arison and Carnival tried to avoid! > Kris > Warren, > We both know that there will be complaints no matter which way anything is > done. I still stand on my position that cruise lines will cut thier own > nose > off to spite thier faces in next few years. Went to see the NEW concept > The > World yesterday in NY. Obviously not a cruiship in the current definition > YET or will it be the future. Sell apartments for 2.5 million to 7 > million. > Well according to thier page you can also RENT apartments for 7 day cruise > and so forth. An interesting note ( they have kitchen in apartment of > course > allowing option ) they have four restaurants and a deli. They serve like a > restaurant, when you come in whatever time and all ala-carte. An > interesting > option is a MEAL PLAN for $150 pp per day ( does include booze ) where you > get room service 24 hours a day and can eat in any of the restaurants or > buffet. Maybe turn the whole cruise business into a time share business? > One > thing is certain. Would not be a very hard concept to visualize with the > recent trends in ala-cart and free-style dining to carry it one step > further, meal plans. Not unheard of on land based packages so why not > carry > it to cruising? Then show packages and so forth just like land based > accomodations. The thing that the corporate geniuses will miss though is > why > I would sail on a ship if it offers the same style as land but also > sometimes rocks and rolls while offering smaller than land space? > I would be willing to bet it is all coming in the future, almost > guarenteed. > BTW The World is the concept and creation of the very same family that ran > NCL into the ground to where it had to be sold to Star or go bankrupt. > George in NY > > > I’m unfamiliar with Mary Allen. Is she a singer or musician? I don’t > > > think there is any doubt that NCL desires to travel down the > "fee-style" > > > cruising path. They will have to do so very slowly to wear down > > > resistance IMO. I think this will be a "2 steps forward, 1 step back" > > > process. It will be interesting to watch the backlash and see how they > > > handle it. > > > Jim > > So Jim, let me ask you this: fares are at all time lows, sometimes > > going as low as $250 for a one week cruise. If NCL (or any other line > > for that matter) were to raise fares back up to levels that allowed > > them to eliminate the extra-fee items and make enough money to remain > > in business, would people book cabins or would there be threads posted > > complaining about it? > > Warren
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I remember reading somewhere that the thing that really got them in the most financial trouble was the financing of the Windward and Dreamward. Evidently they got a horrible finance rate that cost them big money over time… though I’m not sure why they simply didn’t re-finance. –Tom – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Kristian, > May have depicted the circumstances with incorrect time line but basic facts > remain the same even as noted within your own post. > "And also, the Kloster family had been out of the company for years when > Star > took over. The company’s main shareholders at that time were Trygve Hegnar > and Kristian Siem, who turned the company around and made it profitable." > Which makes the point I was trying to make anyway, that Kloster had run > company into the ground. Hence " turn around " was necessitated. > From Finance Asia: Star Cruises had originally planned to acquire NCL > through a 60/40 joint venture with Carnival Corp, but the latter pulled out > of the deal in March, forcing Star Cruises to borrow more than it had > originally anticipated. > This cooresponds with how I recall it, initially this was a JOINT venture > betwen Star and Carnival and it was Carnival that decided to pull out of the > deal. > Whatever the finance was I really base my comments about Kloster running NCL > into the ground primarily on my experiences watching line sink, no pun > intended, as a regular passenger cruising twice annually on NCL in mid and > late 80’s. > George in NY > Try to get your facts right! NCL did not HAVE to be sold to the Star > group! > This was a hostile takeover. > And also, the Kloster family had been out of the company for years when > Star > took over. The company’s main shareholders at that time were Trygve Hegnar > and Kristian Siem, who turned the company around and made it profitable. > They were nowhere near bankruptcy. > Obviously, Carnival "could not" sit still and see this happening, and made > an offer to take over the company. > The NCL management found the offer far too low, and ivited Star to fight > off > Carnival. Star then, used the opportunity to buy the whole company. But > this was obviously not NCL’s plan.– The good thing about this story is > that > NCL is now stronger than ever, and a major competitor to Carnival! Exactly > what the infamous Mr. Arison and Carnival tried to avoid! > Kris > > Warren, > > We both know that there will be complaints no matter which way anything > is > > done. I still stand on my position that cruise lines will cut thier own > nose > > off to spite thier faces in next few years. Went to see the NEW concept > The > > World yesterday in NY. Obviously not a cruiship in the current > definition > > YET or will it be the future. Sell apartments for 2.5 million to 7 > million. > > Well according to thier page you can also RENT apartments for 7 day > cruise > > and so forth. An interesting note ( they have kitchen in apartment of > course > > allowing option ) they have four restaurants and a deli. They serve like > a > > restaurant, when you come in whatever time and all ala-carte. An > interesting > > option is a MEAL PLAN for $150 pp per day ( does include booze ) where > you > > get room service 24 hours a day and can eat in any of the restaurants or > > buffet. Maybe turn the whole cruise business into a time share business? > One > > thing is certain. Would not be a very hard concept to visualize with the > > recent trends in ala-cart and free-style dining to carry it one step > > further, meal plans. Not unheard of on land based packages so why not > carry > > it to cruising? Then show packages and so forth just like land based > > accomodations. The thing that the corporate geniuses will miss though is > why > > I would sail on a ship if it offers the same style as land but also > > sometimes rocks and rolls while offering smaller than land space? > > I would be willing to bet it is all coming in the future, almost > guarenteed. > > BTW The World is the concept and creation of the very same family that > ran > > NCL into the ground to where it had to be sold to Star or go bankrupt. > > George in NY > > > > I’m unfamiliar with Mary Allen. Is she a singer or musician? I don’t > > > > think there is any doubt that NCL desires to travel down the > "fee-style" > > > > cruising path. They will have to do so very slowly to wear down > > > > resistance IMO. I think this will be a "2 steps forward, 1 step > back" > > > > process. It will be interesting to watch the backlash and see how > they > > > > handle it. > > > > Jim > > > So Jim, let me ask you this: fares are at all time lows, sometimes > > > going as low as $250 for a one week cruise. If NCL (or any other line > > > for that matter) were to raise fares back up to levels that allowed > > > them to eliminate the extra-fee items and make enough money to remain > > > in business, would people book cabins or would there be threads posted > > > complaining about it? > > > Warren
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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Now lines have made every attempt to become merely another horrid traveling > experience. Now the disussion can start early, should we go to ala-carte > restaurant or main dining. Maybe to buffet area and eat in our shorts. Paid > show or free show, real coffee or junk coffee for free. In the meantime I > can be assailed by CNN in cabin or what lines infomercials on TV. I can > spend quality time with my internet connection rather than the wife while I > am cruising. I can call the office from the cabin at a reasonable rate so > they can tell me all their problems ( being retired scratch that and impose > married kids can pass on their miseries for the day ) . I can eat at a fast > food joint just like at my mall, in fact on many ships I can feel just like > I am at my mall when I hit the shopping area. I can decide whether to watch > the so-so movie on TV in cabin or pay for view at 9.95. Maybe even gamble > for a while in cabin with hopes of making enough to pay for the pay for > views movies and ala-carte dinner. > Another situation is having increased the pax capacity of ships you can also > arrive at that wonderful island destination along with 12,000 of your > nearest and dearest fellow citizens at the same time.
George, Very nicely stated….. the differences between then and now. I can truly relate to those wonderful reasons to take a cruise after my first one in the late 70’s. Times were sure different. After reading your description of cruising in today’s world, it really makes me think about what aspects of cruising still appeal to *me*. To be honest, it’s the hardware. I’m still a ship fanatic, and I love the ships themselves – not necessarily the cruise lines that own them or how they run them. I am fascinated by marine architecture, interior design, and even the passenger logistics of cruise ships. I have to wonder if I just took my first cruise yesterday on something like NORWEGIAN STAR, would I still be interested in taking cruises as my primary vacations? Frankly, I think I would be considering all-inclusive resorts which truly are all-inclusive at fairly reasonable prices. The "hassle-factor" of cruising seems to have risen ten-fold over the last decade or so. Once it becomes too much of a hassle, the appeal will be gone all together. For now, I still find the cruise industry and the new ships they are building fascinating. There may come a day when this is no longer the case. Best regards, Ernie Roller – who is taking a non-cruise vacation the last week of this month. A week in Key West with 6 good friends and their partners. Believe me, none of them would consider a cruise!
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Now the disussion can start early, should we go to ala-carte > restaurant or main dining. Maybe to buffet area and eat in our shorts. Paid > show or free show,
This is one of the reasons that DH and I prefer Traditional Dining. When we book our cruise, we have made the decision where and when to eat dinner. At home it is always, lets eat out, where should we go, what type of food do we want, what time should we go? It’s nice to get away from that for a week, or more. Sue
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>The NY Times said that "The World" is the only ship out there totally >filled with Type A personalities. All, self made millionaires with >aggressive, damn the torpedoes, full steam ahead personalities.
Hi Tom, It just goes to show you can’t believe everything you read in the New York Times. But then you already knew that. <vbg> Best regards, Ray LIGHTHOUSE TRAVEL 800-719-9917 or 805-566-3905 http://www.lighthousetravel.com
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Who would pay even $.10 to see Marty Allen? Seems like a concept (paid shows) that just isn’t going to work. Jeff – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> The excerpt is as follows: > "My biggest complain was a show at 10:30 one night featuring Marty Allen. > They charged $10.00 for it. I did not go, just on principle! The comment > on > ship was it will soon be called FeeStyle Cruising."
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> Who would pay even $.10 to see Marty Allen? Seems like a concept (paid > shows) that just isn’t going to work.
I saw Marty Alen for free twice on Grand Princess. He was pretty good but I would not spend $10 to see him on a cruise ship. — Charles
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Who is Mary Allen ???
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I think that was a typo. It was Marty Allen.. He was part of the team Allen & Rossi (comedian and singer).
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Who is Mary Allen ???