Business History Books » Business Plans » Confirmed by DL: "L" Class not upgradable in '98
Confirmed by DL: "L" Class not upgradable in '98
Question:
DL confirmed by email today that effective ‘98, "L" class tickets will no longer be segment upgradable. I personally have no problem with this change, but thought it would be more reasonable for DL to continue to make "L" class upgradable for the PM’s and GM’s with double the usual number of certificates.
Response:
Whether there should be a $900 spread in coach ticket prices depending on fare basis restrictions (ie sat night stays and advanced purchases) is probably a whole separtate topic. I do however feel that Delta is simply trying to make more upgrades available to their loyal business flyers that end up paying higher fares because their plans tend to be less flexible. This group generally pays the highest fares, provides the highest potential loyalty (repeat business), yet often can’t get the upgrades because they are all gone. There is something wrong with this picture!! Having siad that, I think Delta should have still allowed L class upgrades to PM’s and GM’s with double or triple the normal number of coupons. (like Alaska’s Plan) I would hate this to lead to a FF plan based on fares vs. mileage/segments. There are substantial fare differences depending on one’s market/base. Loyalty should continue to be based on chosing Delta over their competitors and the current model of segments/miles does this efficiently. You’re right, there will be a major backlash on this one. They were wrong in waiting this late in the year to anounce it. This has "bait and switch" written all over it. (It’s getting pretty late in the year to switch carriers and still get to an elite FF status. I’m sure Delta knowingly planned it this way.) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->"Sorry that you paid $1200 for the same ride that the person next to you >paid $300 for. Tell you what we will do, rather than make fares a bit more >equitable and quit taking advantage of you, we will throw you a bone by >allowing you to upgrade" Don’t you feel special now? Just a bit >patronizing to me. Remember there is no fundamental difference between >the classes of tickets except for the airlines arbitrary designations >which are a component of their yield managament system. >BTW- A DL special member services agent told me yesterday that they are >expecting a backlash against this one come Jan. 1. >Peter
Response:
I’ve done reasonably well this year flying DL even though the companies I contract for have corporate pricing agreements and most often fly me on AA and UA. When DL has the same lowest-fare as AA and UA, I can fly DL, and the upgrade was my motivator. DL has also been exceedingly unsuccessful at negotiating corporate agreements here in Silicon Valley. I know of many companies with agreements with UA. When I’m flying DL the only other company whose people I see regularly is Lockheed-Martin (et.al.) and that’s because they’re flying to MCO. The companies I work for generally disallow travel with less than 14 days advance purchase, and require I accept ‘lowest offered fare’. This means no K fares. 1998’s prospect of non-upgradeable "L" fares effectively ends fighting City Hall — I’ll just fly company preferred carriers. The upgrade on DL was the carrot that made me do the additional footwork (I had to get the DL quote myself), and I’m not going to waste my time if all quoting DL will do is to give me a coach seat.
Response:
>DL confirmed by email today that effective ‘98, "L" class tickets >will no longer be segment upgradable. >I personally have no problem with this change, but thought it would be >more reasonable for DL to continue to make "L" class upgradable for >the PM’s and GM’s with double the usual number of certificates.
I have a number of problems with it but how about this one: "Sorry that you paid $1200 for the same ride that the person next to you paid $300 for. Tell you what we will do, rather than make fares a bit more equitable and quit taking advantage of you, we will throw you a bone by allowing you to upgrade" Don’t you feel special now? Just a bit patronizing to me. Remember there is no fundamental difference between the classes of tickets except for the airlines arbitrary designations which are a component of their yield managament system. BTW- A DL special member services agent told me yesterday that they are expecting a backlash against this one come Jan. 1. Peter
Response:
Sorry for the reply in a newgroup but there is no email address for you >I do however feel that Delta is simply trying to make more upgrades >available to their loyal business flyers that end up paying higher >fares because their plans tend to be less flexible. This group >generally pays the highest fares, provides the highest potential >loyalty (repeat business), yet often can’t get the upgrades because >they are all gone. There is something wrong with this picture!!
First: this has little to do with loyalty, anyone who has elite status is loyal by Delta’s own standards. It has to do only with how much the ticket you currently hold cost. You may have reached PM on exculsively $2000/tix but if your current vacation tix is L class, too bad, no upgrade. Don’t assume the price of the tix you hold is an indication of your loyalty. Also, someone reaches elite status on L class tix ae they less loyal to DL than someone who reached it on full fare, or only less of a cash cow? Loyalty is effectively measured by the number of miles/segments flown, which is why you got elite level in the first place. Want more upgrades? Be more loyal, fly more miles….PM can upgrade at time of purchase, GM 72 hours in advance. The "bait and switch" thing is right on the money and one of the points I made in my letter to them. This year I actively worked to reach GM in order to have higher probablity of upgrades. Now, when it is too late to do that on another airline they change the rules. I am pretty pissed about that. The rewards for loyalty this year are realized next year. So, they should have announced the change for 1999. But, how many people would have stuck with them then? Peter
Response:
> The "bait and switch" thing is right on the money and one of the points I > made in my letter to them. This year I actively worked to reach GM in > order to have higher probablity of upgrades. Now, when it is too late to > do that on another airline they change the rules. I am pretty pissed about > that. The rewards for loyalty this year are realized next year. So, they > should have announced the change for 1999. But, how many people would > have stuck with them then? > Peter
I’ve thought about this issue for a few days now, and I have to say that I agree with you. As of my trip next week, I will also achieve GM status. Had I known this information at the beginning of the year, I might not have tried so hard. I have browsed through my tickets, and I have a lot of "L" class this year. I can only assume that is because I try to plan my business trips at least 2 weeks in advance. This change will likely impact me heavily. On the positive note, I have to say that I’ve noticed a dramatic improvement in customer service lately, and increased service in First Class. I have also been able to upgrade to FC a majority of the time. However, I won’t be able to enjoy that in ‘98 if this change goes through. You may want to check which other airlines will accept a transfer of your status. I believe that some will offer it, and give you most of the benefits, provided you maintain the same level of travel with them. I’m waiting for official word from Delta. Then I’ll consider my options. I’ve been a good customer for a few years now and I’m a little surprised that I’ll be penalized just for planning ahead… especially after finally achieving GM status!
Response:
Well I suggest you make your opinion’s known. Maybe they can be convinced to delay it until ‘99 on the grounds that there’s been inadequate advance notice. I suggest you send your feedback directly might also work, but emails are too close to spam to be taken real seriously.) I personally feel that P.J. is the best thing that’s happened to DL other than Allen getting the boot! She may actually listen!! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Sorry for the reply in a newgroup but there is no email address for you >I do however feel that Delta is simply trying to make more upgrades >available to their loyal business flyers that end up paying higher >fares because their plans tend to be less flexible. This group >generally pays the highest fares, provides the highest potential >loyalty (repeat business), yet often can’t get the upgrades because >they are all gone. There is something wrong with this picture!! >First: this has little to do with loyalty, anyone who has elite status is >loyal by Delta’s own standards. It has to do only with how much the ticket >you currently hold cost. You may have reached PM on exculsively $2000/tix >but if your current vacation tix is L class, too bad, no upgrade. Don’t >assume the price of the tix you hold is an indication of your loyalty. >Also, someone reaches elite status on L class tix ae they less loyal to >DL than someone who reached it on full fare, or only less of a cash cow? >Loyalty is effectively measured by the number of miles/segments flown, >which is why you got elite level in the first place. Want more upgrades? >Be more loyal, fly more miles….PM can upgrade at time of purchase, GM >72 hours in advance. >The "bait and switch" thing is right on the money and one of the points I >made in my letter to them. This year I actively worked to reach GM in >order to have higher probablity of upgrades. Now, when it is too late to >do that on another airline they change the rules. I am pretty pissed about >that. The rewards for loyalty this year are realized next year. So, they >should have announced the change for 1999. But, how many people would >have stuck with them then? >Peter
Response:
> DL confirmed by email today that effective ‘98, "L" class tickets > will no longer be segment upgradable. > I personally have no problem with this change, but thought it would be > more reasonable for DL to continue to make "L" class upgradable for > the PM’s and GM’s with double the usual number of certificates.
IMO I applaud DL’s effort in this area. I know for awhile DL was taking major complaints from FF who pay the at or near the full-fares who were unable to upgrade. many of us make our arrangements at the last minute, sometimes less tan a day in advance. When you pay a full-fare and "L" class fliers have upgraded to first-class it is hard to swallow. It has happened to me. I have spoken with many full-fare fliers who don’t like the idea of upgrades from the very low fares. It has been my arguement to DL for many years on this subject, and I have cited specific examples to them in the inequities in the FF prograsms and the upgrades. With the competition for seats I think you will see the majors "reel-in’ the FF programs in the future. On the subject of $$$$ versus segments in FF programs, I believe DL and the other airlines are looking into this. I know that depending on the market you are located in, this can change what youn pay for a ticket. maybe a combination of revenue and segments is needed. Or let’s make it real simple and drop the FF programs, let’s face it these programs are not flier programs when the airlines go off and sell the miles to other industries and businesses. maybe these programs have run their course and we could choose airlines on safety, schedules, service and cost.
Response:
I’m not a DL flier so I have no vested interest one way or the other, but didn’t most of us just argue, in the ‘$50 penalty’ thread, that you buy the ticket that suits you? If you buy a ticket at the last minute for a high price, you must have a reason — it clearly suited you to do that. And you got what you paid for. Why should you *also* get percs that people who bought a far more constrained ticket at a lower price don’t get? Obviously, in your situation, I would feel the same way — I’d want even more for my money. But you sound as tho there’s something morally superior to your position, which I don’t quite see. One solution for you might be for *you* to drop the FF programs and ‘choose airlines on safety, schedules, service and cost.’ – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > IMO I applaud DL’s effort in this area. I know for awhile DL was <snip> >taking major complaints from FF who pay the at or near the full-fares >who were unable to upgrade. many of us make our arrangements at the >last minute, sometimes less tan a day in advance. >When you pay a full-fare and "L" class fliers have upgraded to >first-class it is hard to swallow. It has happened to me. I have >spoken with many full-fare fliers who don’t like the idea of upgrades >from the very low fares. >It has been my arguement to DL for many years on this subject, and I >have cited specific examples to them in the inequities in the FF >prograsms and the upgrades. With the competition for seats I think you >will see the majors "reel-in’ the FF programs in the future. >On the subject of $$$$ versus segments in FF programs, I believe DL and >the other airlines are looking into this. I know that depending on the >market you are located in, this can change what youn pay for a ticket. >maybe a combination of revenue and segments is needed. >Or let’s make it real simple and drop the FF programs, let’s face it >these programs are not flier programs when the airlines go off and sell >the miles to other industries and businesses. >maybe these programs have run their course and we could choose airlines >on safety, schedules, service and cost.
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Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > I’m not a DL flier so I have no vested interest one way or the other, > but didn’t most of us just argue, in the ‘$50 penalty’ thread, that > you buy the ticket that suits you? If you buy a ticket at the last > minute for a high price, you must have a reason — it clearly suited > you to do that. And you got what you paid for. Why should you *also* > get percs that people who bought a far more constrained ticket at a > lower price don’t get? > Obviously, in your situation, I would feel the same way — I’d want > even more for my money. But you sound as tho there’s something > morally superior to your position, which I don’t quite see. > One solution for you might be for *you* to drop the FF programs > and ‘choose airlines on safety, schedules, service and cost.’
Most time the reasons I pay a higher ticket price is that my travel/business plans dictate such. The $50 penalty for the lower fares is one way that the playing field is level, but when one pax is paying hundreds and hundreds of dollars more the $50 fee is quite small in comparison. I have argued that FF programs should be mainly based on revenue not miles. Sine we can agree that ticket prices vary greatly on a flight, why not use the FF programs to reward the higher paying flier, since service on the plane is the same (first-class/coach)despite the ticket costs. I don’t think I am morally superior due to my opinions. I fly DL because I flew them long before FF programs, and I don’t fly them exclusively. Last week I was on Air Canada, great service and flights. You and anyone else can be part of FF programs as I do myself. I believe that service on the airlines has suffered due to FF programs and passenger tolerence of this lack of service has been muted due to the FF programs. Some may call this loyalty, I think it has more due to the investment in FF programs. Wayne
Response:
> You, as an individual, are perfectly free to choose airlines based > entirely on safety, schedules, service, and cost. No one is forcing you > to incorporate frequent flier programs into your choice of airline. > Those of use who choose airlines based on frequent flier programs do so > because we like frequent flier programs. Why should *you* be allowed to > force *your* dislike of frequent flier programs on everyone else?
Chris, you and anyone else can choose an airline based on your own criteria. I don’t force my opinions on anyone. I let the airlines know what I believe and try to make a case for it by citing specific examples, namely the cost of tickets and upgrades. Obviously I wasn’t the only one who feels this way. Specifically DL told me that they were getting numerous complaints from FF’s on the "L" class ticket issue and upgrades. I don’t know but it appears to me that logic is left aside on the FF programs in discussions. They have become some sort of god-given right which we all must have. Wow for an originally short-term promotional advertising program it has become part of our culture. I guess if the airlines decided to stop these programs lawsuits would abound and we would all stop flying? Wayne
Response:
<snip> >Most time the reasons I pay a higher ticket price is that my >travel/business plans dictate such. The $50 penalty for the lower fares >is one way that the playing field is level, but when one pax is paying >hundreds and hundreds of dollars more the $50 fee is quite small in >comparison.
So buy tickets in advance and pay the $50 fee when you know your schedule. >I have argued that FF programs should be mainly based on revenue not >miles. Sine we can agree that ticket prices vary greatly on a flight, >why not use the FF programs to reward the higher paying flier, since >service on the plane is the same (first-class/coach)despite the ticket >costs.
Yes, service is the same but you had the luxury of waiting till the last minute to commit yourself and you can change it as you like or even get your money back. THAT’s what you paid for, right? Using the FF programs to reward the higher paying flier would be rewarding just *one* type of business flyer. I think they might want the business of the rest of us, too. >I don’t think I am morally superior due to my opinions. I fly DL >because I flew them long before FF programs, and I don’t fly them >exclusively. Last week I was on Air Canada, great service and flights. >You and anyone else can be part of FF programs as I do myself. I >believe that service on the airlines has suffered due to FF programs and >passenger tolerence of this lack of service has been muted due to the FF >programs.
I think service has suffered because it’s no big deal to fly anymore — just a step up from Greyhound. And maybe *that*’s what’s bothering you — all those teeming masses — and all getting the same FF mileage credit to boot. 
Btw, now that I think of it, can you name one domain where service has *not* suffered in the past few decades? I can’t. >Some may call this loyalty, I think it has more due to the >investment in FF programs.
That’s pretty funny. You were expecting some sort of heartfelt emotional loyalty, perhaps? Clearly the airlines weren’t or they never would have dreamed up FF programs! Btw, it may tickle you to know that, due to recent changes in USAirways’ FF program (separation from BA, forthcoming separation from AmEx), it would be in my FF interest to switch to TWA. But I can’t — having to make all the connections I’d need to just isn’t worth it. So even a wild-eyed FF lover like me can’t always put FF interests first. Sigh. But of course that has nothing to do with emotional loyalty — it has to do with getting where I have to go in a reasonable amt of time, the reason we fly, after all…
Response:
as if it was written: > IMO I applaud DL’s effort in this area. I know for awhile DL was >taking major complaints from FF who pay the at or near the full-fares >who were unable to upgrade. many of us make our arrangements at the >last minute, sometimes less tan a day in advance. >When you pay a full-fare and "L" class fliers have upgraded to >first-class it is hard to swallow. It has happened to me. I have >spoken with many full-fare fliers who don’t like the idea of upgrades >from the very low fares.
Hmmm… I see this as yet another instance where Delta hasn’t quite got to grips with the things like "computers" and "yield management" 8-) The other two majors manage to put in place various restrictions on upgrades based on fare, most notably United, who have acted the opposite way: if you have a full fare ticket, you can upgrade *earlier* than if you don’t. But Delta, in their infinite wisdom, have chosen to make a specific class of ticket non-upgradeable even if the FC cabin is completely empty!! (At least, that’s what I gathered based on this thread). Doesn’t matter what flavor Skymiles card you carry: if you have a ticket with a "L" class fare, you’re not getting into First Class. From this we can conclude that the *real* reason for this new rule has absolutely NOTHING to do with these alleged complaints from passengers with higher priced tickets… it’s a simple attempt at forcing people who want the *chance* of an upgrade to buy a more expensive ticket. Now, I make no comment about the fairness or wisdom of that attempt, but do remark that I get really annoyed at airlines who pretend that the latest scam is as a result of passenger feedback, as Delta is claiming. United did the same thing with their "free tickets require a Saturday night stay" rule change, and their elimination of threshold bonuses. "Acting on feedback from passengers…" I can imagine the customer focus group: "OK, now, this 300 pound gentleman with the interesting forehead and dragging knuckles is Luigi… he gets upset if you disagree with him. First question: Luigi thinks it would be a good idea if we eliminated XYZ. What do you think?" >Or let’s make it real simple and drop the FF programs, let’s face it >these programs are not flier programs when the airlines go off and sell >the miles to other industries and businesses.
Of course they are! Because at the end of the day, are you more likely to make that once-a-year trip with the airline into whose program your phone bill dollars trickle, or some airline that you’ve never heard of? Malc.
Response:
> So buy tickets in advance and pay the $50 fee when you know your schedule.
The troble is when you change a flight for $50 fee that class of service has to be available, at the last minute those fares are usually not availbale and may be higher than the fare that you paid. Those fares which are not full priced but changeable with out a fee. > Yes, service is the same but you had the luxury of waiting till the > last minute to commit yourself and you can change it as you like or > even get your money back. THAT’s what you paid for, right?
That’s not what I pay for. I don’t consider that a luxury to wait to the last minute to purchase a ticket. sometimes I can’t even get a seat. I would like to see better service or the FF programs reflect this. > Using the FF programs to reward the higher paying flier would be > rewarding just *one* type of business flyer. I think they might want > the business of the rest of us, too.
No, I am talking about a sliding scale with a FF program. Obviously the airlines want everyone’s business. > I think service has suffered because it’s no big deal to fly anymore — > just a step up from Greyhound. And maybe *that*’s what’s bothering you > — all those teeming masses — and all getting the same FF mileage > credit to boot. > Btw, now that I think of it, can you name one domain where service has > *not* suffered in the past few decades? I can’t.
Try this, telephone service. Rates have declined and IMO service is much better that a few decades ago. To be able to call almost direct to anyplace in the world… Especially here in the US a superior telephone/communication system. > That’s pretty funny. You were expecting some sort of heartfelt emotional > loyalty, perhaps? Clearly the airlines weren’t or they never would have > dreamed up FF programs!
Remember Crandall (AA) started this it was supposed to be a SHORT-TERM progam, 3-6 months. It has grown obviously, it is very successful. maybe I do expect more than FF miles, better service and name recognition. > Btw, it may tickle you to know that, due to recent changes in USAirways’ > FF program (separation from BA, forthcoming separation from AmEx), it > would be in my FF interest to switch to TWA. But I can’t — having to > make all the connections I’d need to just isn’t worth it. So even a > wild-eyed FF lover like me can’t always put FF interests first. Sigh. > But of course that has nothing to do with emotional loyalty — it has > to do with getting where I have to go in a reasonable amt of time, the > reason we fly, after all…
Totally agree!
Response:
>> So buy tickets in advance and pay the $50 fee when you know your schedule. >The troble is when you change a flight for $50 fee that class of service >has to be available, at the last minute those fares are usually not >availbale and may be higher than the fare that you paid. Those fares >which are not full priced but changeable with out a fee.
Ah, so you’re getting SOMETHING for those extra bucks… > Yes, service is the same but you had the luxury of waiting till the > last minute to commit yourself and you can change it as you like or > even get your money back. THAT’s what you paid for, right? >That’s not what I pay for. I don’t consider that a luxury to wait to >the last minute to purchase a ticket. sometimes I can’t even get a >seat. I would like to see better service or the FF programs reflect >this.
‘Luxury’ was a poor choice of words on my part. What you got was the ability to wait till the last minute to get a seat. (If you couldn’t get a seat, then it didn’t cost you anything. ) > Using the FF programs to reward the higher paying flier would be > rewarding just *one* type of business flyer. I think they might want > the business of the rest of us, too. >No, I am talking about a sliding scale with a FF program. Obviously the >airlines want everyone’s business.
Yeah, I could see a sliding scale, tho I wouldn’t be thrilled personally. > I think service has suffered because it’s no big deal to fly anymore — > just a step up from Greyhound. And maybe *that*’s what’s bothering you > — all those teeming masses — and all getting the same FF mileage > credit to boot. > Btw, now that I think of it, can you name one domain where service has > *not* suffered in the past few decades? I can’t. >Try this, telephone service. Rates have declined and IMO service is >much better that a few decades ago. To be able to call almost direct to >anyplace in the world… Especially here in the US a superior >telephone/communication system.
Sorry. What has improved is telephone *technology* — and so has airplane technology. As for telephone service, hahahaha — have you called directory assistance recently??? Not only do you pay for it now (and thru the nose, IMO) but you (or at least I, in 215) talk to a machine and then usually have to repeat everything for the human. I’ve even been put on hold! And they try to sell you an insurance policy to guard against the wires in your walls falling apart. No, I would NOT say that telephone service is better — I think it’s a lot worse! (Tho of course I agree that the technology is much better, and the rates are good — thanks to competition.) > That’s pretty funny. You were expecting some sort of heartfelt emotional > loyalty, perhaps? Clearly the airlines weren’t or they never would have > dreamed up FF programs! >Remember Crandall (AA) started this it was supposed to be a SHORT-TERM >progam, 3-6 months. It has grown obviously, it is very successful. >maybe I do expect more than FF miles, better service and name >recognition.
Well, you keep saying that but I’ve never heard of this anywhere else. Any references? When exactly did the FF programs start? The first one I joined was TWA, I think — don’t remember when that was. > Btw, it may tickle you to know that, due to recent changes in USAirways’ > FF program (separation from BA, forthcoming separation from AmEx), it > would be in my FF interest to switch to TWA. But I can’t — having to > make all the connections I’d need to just isn’t worth it. So even a > wild-eyed FF lover like me can’t always put FF interests first. Sigh. > But of course that has nothing to do with emotional loyalty — it has > to do with getting where I have to go in a reasonable amt of time, the > reason we fly, after all… >Totally agree!
But don’t think it didn’t cross my mind to go thru St Louis to get from PHL to BOS… .
Response:
as if it was written: >Remember Crandall (AA) started this it was supposed to be a SHORT-TERM >progam, 3-6 months. It has grown obviously, it is very successful. >maybe I do expect more than FF miles, better service and name >recognition.
Even by your own remarks, *Crandall* did NOT expect FF programs to be short term. The other carriers, in matching AAdvantage, may have done, but he had longer term views. Like it or not, airlines find FF programs to be very effective. Whine about it if you like, but these programs do what they’re supposed to do, which is provide brand loyalty. And we know what Joe Average thinks about service: he doesn’t it at the expense of price. Malc.
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> Even by your own remarks, *Crandall* did NOT expect FF programs to be short > term. The other carriers, in matching AAdvantage, may have done, but he had > longer term views. > Like it or not, airlines find FF programs to be very effective. Whine about > it if you like, but these programs do what they’re supposed to do, which is > provide brand loyalty. > And we know what Joe Average thinks about service: he doesn’t it at the > expense of price.
Malcolm: I agree they are successfull, that is obvious. Do you think they will always be with us? Maybe they will, and to that end I myself would try and change those propgrams. The programs have changed, and for the most part they have become restricted in comparison to years ago. IMO I thought the DL’s rule of the no upgrade policy on L fare tickets is correct. I believe most of the participants in this news group totally disagree. Maybe the FF programs are here to stay. So be it! Maybe some changes in them can be made. Wayne
Response:
>> IMO I applaud DL’s effort in this area. I know for awhile DL was >taking major complaints from FF who pay the at or near the full-fares >who were unable to upgrade. many of us make our arrangements at the >last minute, sometimes less tan a day in advance.
ahhh…good point here. I forgot that the people who pay full fare at the last minute would get blocked by people like me who buy the cheap fares but have sufficient miles to upgrade several days in advance. This is a problem for yield managment systems which can hold back sufficient seats, in fact….why do you think you get wait listed but then get upgraded more often than not. >When you pay a full-fare and "L" class fliers have upgraded to >first-class it is hard to swallow. It has happened to me. I have >spoken with many full-fare fliers who don’t like the idea of upgrades >from the very low fares.
yeah…because you feel that since you spent more you are entitled to more. but why not direct that hostility at the airlines that are gouging you because your company is paying for the ticket and you need to go for business and so they got you by the balls. Those who plan ahead presumably have a choice, hence they sell cheap tix to attract their business. >I understand your point, but let’s not forget that no one is ‘entitled’ to an >upgrade. Whenever a person bitches about coach service, s(he) is told that the >airline offers different products to fit ones individual needs, and if they wish >more ammenities they should purchase a FC/Biz class ticket.
OK..and now my pet peave!!! [well I have lots but this is one 
]. The existence of FC and business class, or of things like gold express lines for auto rental or whatever, necessarily hold down the level of service in coach. Obviously, you have to have a discrepency in service in order to sell the upper class service. You know, I don’t mind not getting free booze in coach, and I don’t mind getting bad food (the food up front aint that good either) but I do mind seats that are so damn uncomfortable that I count the minutes left in the flight. I do mind flight attendents who are too overextended to help first time travellers find their seats and stow their bags. But the implicit answer from the airlines: Buy a FC ticket and we will treat you like a person. Don’t know about all you folks but for me the big draw of FC is being able to open a newspaper and read on the flight and be able to walk off without limping at the end not free booze and better food. petter at mindspring dot com
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I will be on a Delta MD-11 in business class next week and was wondering if the upgraded business class seating found on some of the 767 fleet has made it to the MD-11s. Also, seat 10A looks to be the front row of the cabin right behind the lavatory, how is the leg room in this row? Would it be better to move back to a normal row and avoid the bulkhead? Thanks, Eric Bartsch
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All of the MD-11’s should have the new business class. I believe they were retrofitted before the 767-300ER’s and completed in June. I believe 10A is behind the bulkhead but I wouldn’t worry too much. They should still have excellent legroom (approx 50"). The MD-11’s have in seat video units, 767’s still have the movie screen (at least in domestic business class). You might get a sore neck is you’re trying to watch the movie in seat 10A in a 767-300ER. MD-11’s are great for passengers but the airlines don’t seen to like them too much. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->I will be on a Delta MD-11 in business class next week and was wondering >if the upgraded business class seating found on some of the 767 fleet has >made it to the MD-11s. Also, seat 10A looks to be the front row of the >cabin right behind the lavatory, how is the leg room in this row? Would >it be better to move back to a normal row and avoid the bulkhead? >Thanks, >Eric Bartsch
Response:
>MD-11’s are great for passengers but the airlines don’t seen to like >them too much.
I was convinced the MD-11 was a dead duck, but since the acquisition, Boeing has said the MD-11 will live on as a cargo plane, where it is very popular. Strange. Delta appears to be the American carrier most reliant on MD-11 for long distance flights. AA only has a handful and they use them for the Tokyo flight and Europe. The rest of the fleet is 767sand DC-10s.
Response:
Keep the bulkhead seat in business class. You won’t have anyone leaning back into your space, and yes, there is plenty of leg room. I always request bulkheads in biz class. Richard
Response:
> All of the MD-11’s should have the new business class. I believe they > were retrofitted before the 767-300ER’s and completed in June. > I believe 10A is behind the bulkhead but I wouldn’t worry too much. > They should still have excellent legroom (approx 50"). > The MD-11’s have in seat video units, 767’s still have the movie > screen (at least in domestic business class). You might get a sore > neck is you’re trying to watch the movie in seat 10A in a 767-300ER. > MD-11’s are great for passengers but the airlines don’t seen to like > them too much.
All of theMD-11’s have gone through the buisness class upgrade, whether or not they have the em-power plugs yet I don’t know. Also the 767-300 buisness class should have the portable video units, and there should be an LCD display on the bulkhead for viewing of the cabin entertainment. — Peter Hollingsworth The Grand Scale Earthly Destructor WWW: http://petex.gt.ed.net
Response:
>> Keep the bulkhead seat in business class. You won’t have anyone
leaning back into your space, and yes, there is plenty of leg room. I always request bulkheads in biz class. << In the newly configured BC seats, none of the seats have a shortage of leg room. The seats are still uncomfortable though; they are suppose to be replaced soon.