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ABS Problems in CC vehicle?
Question:
>For Canadians, call Transport Canada (I have the # I can look up).
Canadians, or those in U.S. border states, can also watch Marketplace tuesday night (tonight) for an item on this issue. Marketplace is a consumer rights advocacy TV program on the CBC TV network. It also reruns on the weekend on CBC Newsworld. –Donald Teed
Response:
[ Article crossposted from rec.autos.makers.chrysler ] [ Author was Charlene M Blake ] In a continuing effort to compile *factual* data, I would like to know have the following information from those who have experienced ABS malfunction/failure/component replacement in a CC vehicle: 1) Year and model of vehicle 2) Nature of problem 3) Mileage and age when problem occurred 4) Under warranty or no? 5) Were you negotiating with the dealership where you bought the car or a different one? 6) What was the resolution: -They took care of it under warranty? -They took care of it thought out of warranty? -They gave you a small amount toward it, you paid balance? (often part at no cost; you pay labor) -You paid all and received partial/tull reimbursement later -Any other scenario not mentioned above? If you wish to have a resource re: the ABS problem and the current gov’t ABS investigation of some CC vehicle models, first contact the NHTSA Auto Safety Hotline at (800) 424-9393 to report the situation you had. Then, contact the Center for Auto Safety at (202) 328-7700 to report the same and obtain some additional info. You might also try "Consumer for Auto Reliability and Safety" at (916) 759-9440, esp. if you are close to Sacramento. (CAS and the NHTSA are in Washington, DC) For Canadians, call Transport Canada (I have the # I can look up). E-mail me privately with any further questions or for more info. Thank you. — Charlene Blake Springfield, VA — Charlene Blake Springfield, VA
Response:
>: (snip) >: >Here! Here! It’s about time that someone takes some initative to address one of the major problems >: >with ABS. This problem, lack of driver education!! I know Charlene disagrees but, I feel that ABS >: >operation MUST be taught to today’s drivers. If not, they will scared s___less the first time that >: >they actually use it and may suffer injury or worse. >: >– > I do not disagree with educating drivers at all. The fact is, however, >that driver education is *not* the answer for the problems with the >Bendix-10 ABS. These systems are experiencing *MECHANICAL* failures which >cannot be avoided no matter how much driver education the owner has.
[ snipped more remarks] I have to agree with Charlene on this. The ABS on my Jeep Cherokee failed and I had to stand on my break pedal to get the car to slow down. Also the ABS pump was running continiously. The first dealer I went to, however, diagnosed it as normal breaking and blamed it on a sensor. They sorted the sensor, wich caused the ABS warning light to go out and said the problem was found and all I had to do is wait for the new sensor to come in. I complained to the braking problem was still there and went to an other official Jeep dealer. The contacted Chrysler and two days later they advised me to drive my Jeep very slowly to the garage because the system could fail completely. They replaced just about all the ABS related parts in my Jeep, including some electronics. My conclusion: 1. Chrysler has a problem with ABS systems failing. 2. There will be people who will take there foot of the braking pedal when it starts to pulsate and they will think its a defect. PS If the pulsating braking pedal is causing some people to take their foot of the brake and see it as a failure, is this than not a DESIGN failure ? The product is not fit for use by its intended customers Just my $0.02 Cheers —-> Ring Ring Ring Ring <—- —-> Hello, London calling <—-
Response:
Has anyone tried relacing Bendix-10 with a conventional braking system? If you got rid of the junk and added a conventional booster and master cylinder, the calipers and cylinders should theoretically work… Anyone know if they won’t? If you did that using parts store (non-CC) parts, it would probably cost less than $300… — Duct Tape is like the Force: :You raise the blade, you make the change, It has a Light side, :You reaarange me ’till I’m sane. You lock A Dark Side, :The door, throw away the key, there’s And Holds the Universe together :Someone in my head, but it’s not me.
Response:
>PS >If the pulsating braking pedal is causing some people to take their >foot of the brake and see it as a failure, is this than not a DESIGN >failure ? The product is not fit for use by its intended customers >Just my $0.02
An interesting point. Decouple the hydraulic system from the pedal, and you should be able to develop a system that "pumps" the brakes without the pulsating pedal. Of course, *I* wouldn’t want to write the software for that "fly by wire" system and accept the potential liability for it… Good thinking. However, the fundamental issue still stands; people who understand how ABS works, have tested it for themselves, and aren’t afraid of using it have reported failures. No amount of "driver education" can get around this; some of us educated ourselves in how ABS works when we got the car. I still am glad the handbrake worked for me. Regards, David L. Bolthouse
Response:
Personally, I am willing to accept the following facts, *at the same time*: 1. The Bendix ABS-10 system is prone to failure 2. This does not mean every ABS_10 system will fail 3. Some people are mistaken when they say their system has failed To top this amazing feat, I will add: 1. Some things Chrysler does are very good 2. Some things Chrysler does (or does not do) are very bad 3. a. Chrysler dealers are often at fault for not fixing things b. Chrysler itself is often at fault for not fixing things c. Sometimes things don’t need to be fixed d. Bendix is very much at fault for not providing a fix e. Chrysler may not be trying hard enough to get a fix Now, let me find three impossible things to believe, and I can have breakfast.
Response:
I had a mechanic look into replacement of the Bendix-10 ABS system with a conventional system. The answer was yes, but the estimate was about $1,000, partly because the pads, calipers, etc. were different. It sounded as if the whole brake system would have to be replaced, not just the anti-lock components. Nevertheless, the alternative has appeal when compared to the alternative.
Response:
I’ve been out looking at used mini-vans with ABS. In a number of them, it was very evident that the brake fluid was contaminated. I didn’t bother driving those. On some of those with contaminated fluid, the owners showed me bills for complete replacement of the ABS. There is clearly a chronic problem here. Driver education is not going to solve this problem. I’m going to pass on purchasing a CC mini-van with ABS until Chrysler publicly and clearly acknowleges the problem and demonstrates a real fix. Those of you trying to implicate driver failure are only deluding yourselves and delaying the required remedies. Steve Powers
Response:
: * If in an emergency, and in an automatic, shift into park. You may lose I would suggest that if you have not lost all braking, but the braking is very low, that shifting into neutral may be effective. A neutral shift is commonly taught for emergency stopping in slippery conditions, both with and without ABS. I’m sure its not true, but I heard a rumour that Chrysler Canada has made an arrangement with all Canadian cities and highways departments to leave snowbanks alongside all roads. The updated owners manual would recommend that drivers aim for the snowbank if their brakes fail. I think they will probably release this information on April 1st, while Canadians can still use their remaining snowbanks. Peter D. Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Response:
> I would suggest that if you have not lost all braking, but the braking is > very low, that shifting into neutral may be effective. A neutral shift > is commonly taught for emergency stopping in slippery conditions, both > with and without ABS.
That might be good for slippery conditions, but going into neutral when you are brakeless will greatly increase your stopping distance. Downshifting will throw engine compression into the equation on either automatics or manuals.. > I’m sure its not true, but I heard a rumour that Chrysler Canada has made > an arrangement with all Canadian cities and highways departments to leave > snowbanks alongside all roads. The updated owners manual would recommend > that drivers aim for the snowbank if their brakes fail. I think they > will probably release this information on April 1st, while Canadians can > still use their remaining snowbanks. > Peter D. > Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
– http://www.mordor.com/valiant/dave.html Powered by Macintosh 84 – 32-character filenames, Trash, and all!
Response:
: (snip) : >Here! Here! It’s about time that someone takes some initative to address one of the major problems : >with ABS. This problem, lack of driver education!! I know Charlene disagrees but, I feel that ABS : >operation MUST be taught to today’s drivers. If not, they will scared s___less the first time that : >they actually use it and may suffer injury or worse. : >– I do not disagree with educating drivers at all. The fact is, however, that driver education is *not* the answer for the problems with the Bendix-10 ABS. These systems are experiencing *MECHANICAL* failures which cannot be avoided no matter how much driver education the owner has. This is not merely my opinion….it is documented and other owners can attest to it. To whitewash a problem such as the Bendix-10 failures by blaming the incidents on "driver error" is *worse* than absurd. This is nothing more than a nice smokescreen for the auto manuf. to hide behind to escape any blame themselves. Can owners cause the permanent failure of their ABS just because they are not pressing the pedal correctly? Why has this happened to those who already *know* how to use ABS? How, then, do you explain all those TSBs on the Bendix-10? And you think that a little driver education is the answer?? BTW, there is not *one word* in my owner’s manual on how to use ABS; I already knew how to use ABS; my system completely and permanently failed. Please explain this to me using the theory you have stated above. Thank you. : For those owners who have experienced the ABS failures, do take the "driver error" theory with a grain of salt and question this explanation until "proof positive" is provided. Naturally, the automaker may want to avoid facing the music on this one as it will be most expensive for them. They would prefer you paying for the repairs while being basically unknowledgeable of the situation. And as for safety….I doubt you will get a guarantee that your ABS is safe following repair. Just remember, the gamble will be your *own*. — Charlene Blake Springfield, VA
Response:
*If you shifted to "Park" while underway (assuming you could avoid *"Reverse"), the transmission would probably just break and you’d coast *as if in "Neutral". Probably true. Let me revise that. Shift to REVERSE if there’s an emergency and you lose your brakes…shift down to the lower gears (2, then 1) if you losee your brakes and there’s no immediate emerggency…but use the EMERGENCY (parking) BRAKE first!!! (Either way it’s bad for the transmission, of course)
Response:
>* If in an emergency, and in an automatic, shift into park. You may lose >your transmission (though not if you have a TorqueFlite!) but you may >save your life.
Downshifting, yes, but I don’t believe "Park" is a good idea. If I understand things correctly, only a relatively small pin in the transmission keeps the wheels from turning, otherwise "Park" is like "Neutral". (This is why most, if not all owners manuals tell you to always place the parking brake when parked). If you shifted to "Park" while underway (assuming you could avoid "Reverse"), the transmission would probably just break and you’d coast as if in "Neutral". Regards, CANADA |
Response:
>but the responses of two people I expected to >understand the operation of the system baffles me. I have already begun >planning for an ABS clinic for our present owners to address what I can >only explain as kind of an "ABS buck fever". >While this is not a clear cut system failure, requiring the replacement of >mechanical parts, I would be interested in any comments and especially >advice.
Here! Here! It’s about time that someone takes some initative to address one of the major problems with ABS. This problem, lack of driver education!! I know Charlene disagrees but, I feel that ABS operation MUST be taught to today’s drivers. If not, they will scared s___less the first time that they actually use it and may suffer injury or worse. — R. Bruce Orrell Technical Specialist PROTECH Consulting Inc. http://www.protech.on.ca/
Response:
> >but the responses of two people I expected to >understand the operation of the system baffles me. I have already begun >planning for an ABS clinic for our present owners to address what I can >only explain as kind of an "ABS buck fever". >While this is not a clear cut system failure, requiring the replacement of >mechanical parts, I would be interested in any comments and especially >advice. > Here! Here! It’s about time that someone takes some initative to
address one of the major problems > with ABS. This problem, lack of driver education!! I know Charlene
disagrees but, I feel that ABS > operation MUST be taught to today’s drivers. If not, they will scared
s___less the first time that > they actually use it and may suffer injury or worse. > — > R. Bruce Orrell > Technical Specialist > PROTECH Consulting Inc. > http://www.protech.on.ca/
I agree that education about ABS is badly needed. American consumers are in need of education about a lot of technical issues. (And consumers of other nationalities are probably not much, if any, better educated about technical issues.) And I am amazed that a service manager (Where? Affiliated with which manufacturer?) would be this uneducated about ABS. However, it is VERY important that we also understand that there ARE a lot of real ABS failures occurring. We have had three brake failures, and both I and my wife know what a normal ABS actuation is like. The dealer that "band-aided" my brakes after the first failure (following Chrysler’s service guidelines) initially denied that they had seen ANY repeat failures. I later learned that this dealer had re-purchased several vehicles with multiple ABS failures for Chrysler. I have since talked to two other dealer’s service managers, who both also denied any knowledge of repeat failures. To ignore and deny a problem of this magnitude is very bad for any company’s reputation and future business. David E. Price Safety Analyst Hazards Control – Safety Analysis Group Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory — Microsoft Network is prohibited from redistributing this work in any form, in whole or in part. Copyright, David E. Price, 1995.
Response:
> I agree wholeheartedly with this too, I received ABS brakes training > awhile back and while I already knew how the system worked and how the > system reacts, most of the other drivers present obviously did not. It > really doesn’t take all that long to feel and understand how ABS works, > just one panic stop where you keep your damn foot glued to the floorboard > should do it.
I agree with this, and I also agree that the Bendix ABS-10 seems to be a poor design. I would also though like to say that people should be taught what to do when the brakes fail: * If in a manual trans, downshift. * Use the emergency brake. * If in an emergency, and in an automatic, shift into park. You may lose your transmission (though not if you have a TorqueFlite!) but you may save your life.
Response:
Today, our service manager came to me because he wanted to test the ABS brakes in a 95 Stratus ES demonstrator. He said he was looking into an ABS failure on a 96 Cirrus LX driven by the Dealer’s wife as a demo. She had reported that the brakes failed while coming down a steep hill on a snowy day this past weekend, and had also reported that she was unable to turn the steering wheel during the failure. The service manager had taken the Cirrus to a parking lot this morning and, in his own words, "could not stop the car". I went with him in the Stratus and we tried the brakes in a panic stop at about 25MPH. As soon as the ABS began to pulse I was pushed forward by the deceleration and we could hear the ABS pump cycling. He pulled his foot off the brake pedal and said "It does the same thing!". It took a few more passes before he began to relax and use the brakes correctly. I did notice that the noise of the pump and sound of the system was considerably louder than that on my 96 Caravan. I am dumbfounded by the service manager’s reaction to what I percieved as normal operation of the system. I later went to a snowy parking lot with the Dealer’s wife and we used the system in her Cirrus. She was able to use the brakes properly and agreed that they allowed her to safely manuver the vehicle during operation, but was unable to tell me whether they were working any differently than they were on the afternoon that she experienced the failure. A technician later examined the ABS system in the Cirrus and could find no problem. I am at a loss to explain this incident. It appears that this was the first time the service manager or the Dealer’s wife had actually called on an ABS system to work, but the responses of two people I expected to understand the operation of the system baffles me. I have already begun planning for an ABS clinic for our present owners to address what I can only explain as kind of an "ABS buck fever". While this is not a clear cut system failure, requiring the replacement of mechanical parts, I would be interested in any comments and especially advice. Lee Glynn
Response:
(snip) >Here! Here! It’s about time that someone takes some initative to address one of the major problems >with ABS. This problem, lack of driver education!! I know Charlene disagrees but, I feel that ABS >operation MUST be taught to today’s drivers. If not, they will scared s___less the first time that >they actually use it and may suffer injury or worse. >–
I agree wholeheartedly with this too, I received ABS brakes training awhile back and while I already knew how the system worked and how the system reacts, most of the other drivers present obviously did not. It really doesn’t take all that long to feel and understand how ABS works, just one panic stop where you keep your damn foot glued to the floorboard should do it. Eric Bin
Response:
In a continuing effort to compile *factual* data, I would like to know have the following information from those who have experienced ABS malfunction/failure/component replacement in a CC vehicle: 1) Year and model of vehicle 2) Nature of problem 3) Mileage and age when problem occurred 4) Under warranty or no? 5) Were you negotiating with the dealership where you bought the car or a different one? 6) What was the resolution: -They took care of it under warranty? -They took care of it thought out of warranty? -They gave you a small amount toward it, you paid balance? (often part at no cost; you pay labor) -You paid all and received partial/tull reimbursement later -Any other scenario not mentioned above? If you wish to have a resource re: the ABS problem and the current gov’t ABS investigation of some CC vehicle models, first contact the NHTSA Auto Safety Hotline at (800) 424-9393 to report the situation you had. Then, contact the Center for Auto Safety at (202) 328-7700 to report the same and obtain some additional info. You might also try "Consumer for Auto Reliability and Safety" at (916) 759-9440, esp. if you are close to Sacramento. (CAS and the NHTSA are in Washington, DC) For Canadians, call Transport Canada (I have the # I can look up). E-mail me privately with any further questions or for more info. Thank you. — Charlene Blake Springfield, VA
Response:
>: (snip) >: >Here! Here! It’s about time that someone takes some initative to address one of the major problems >: >with ABS. This problem, lack of driver education!! I know Charlene disagrees but, I feel that ABS >: >operation MUST be taught to today’s drivers. If not, they will scared s___less the first time that >: >they actually use it and may suffer injury or worse. >: >– > I do not disagree with educating drivers at all. The fact is, however, >that driver education is *not* the answer for the problems with the >Bendix-10 ABS. These systems are experiencing *MECHANICAL* failures which >cannot be avoided no matter how much driver education the owner has.
[ snipped more remarks] I have to agree with Charlene on this. The ABS on my Jeep Cherokee failed and I had to stand on my break pedal to get the car to slow down. Also the ABS pump was running continiously. The first dealer I went to, however, diagnosed it as normal breaking and blamed it on a sensor. They sorted the sensor, wich caused the ABS warning light to go out and said the problem was found and all I had to do is wait for the new sensor to come in. I complained to the braking problem was still there and went to an other official Jeep dealer. The contacted Chrysler and two days later they advised me to drive my Jeep very slowly to the garage because the system could fail completely. They replaced just about all the ABS related parts in my Jeep, including some electronics. My conclusion: 1. Chrysler has a problem with ABS systems failing. 2. There will be people who will take there foot of the braking pedal when it starts to pulsate and they will think its a defect. PS If the pulsating braking pedal is causing some people to take their foot of the brake and see it as a failure, is this than not a DESIGN failure ? The product is not fit for use by its intended customers Just my $0.02 Cheers —-> Ring Ring Ring Ring <—- —-> Hello, London calling <—-
Response:
Has anyone tried relacing Bendix-10 with a conventional braking system? If you got rid of the junk and added a conventional booster and master cylinder, the calipers and cylinders should theoretically work… Anyone know if they won’t? If you did that using parts store (non-CC) parts, it would probably cost less than $300… — Duct Tape is like the Force: :You raise the blade, you make the change, It has a Light side, :You reaarange me ’till I’m sane. You lock A Dark Side, :The door, throw away the key, there’s And Holds the Universe together :Someone in my head, but it’s not me.
Response:
>PS >If the pulsating braking pedal is causing some people to take their >foot of the brake and see it as a failure, is this than not a DESIGN >failure ? The product is not fit for use by its intended customers >Just my $0.02
An interesting point. Decouple the hydraulic system from the pedal, and you should be able to develop a system that "pumps" the brakes without the pulsating pedal. Of course, *I* wouldn’t want to write the software for that "fly by wire" system and accept the potential liability for it… Good thinking. However, the fundamental issue still stands; people who understand how ABS works, have tested it for themselves, and aren’t afraid of using it have reported failures. No amount of "driver education" can get around this; some of us educated ourselves in how ABS works when we got the car. I still am glad the handbrake worked for me. Regards, David L. Bolthouse
Response:
Personally, I am willing to accept the following facts, *at the same time*: 1. The Bendix ABS-10 system is prone to failure 2. This does not mean every ABS_10 system will fail 3. Some people are mistaken when they say their system has failed To top this amazing feat, I will add: 1. Some things Chrysler does are very good 2. Some things Chrysler does (or does not do) are very bad 3. a. Chrysler dealers are often at fault for not fixing things b. Chrysler itself is often at fault for not fixing things c. Sometimes things don’t need to be fixed d. Bendix is very much at fault for not providing a fix e. Chrysler may not be trying hard enough to get a fix Now, let me find three impossible things to believe, and I can have breakfast.
Response:
I had a mechanic look into replacement of the Bendix-10 ABS system with a conventional system. The answer was yes, but the estimate was about $1,000, partly because the pads, calipers, etc. were different. It sounded as if the whole brake system would have to be replaced, not just the anti-lock components. Nevertheless, the alternative has appeal when compared to the alternative.
Response:
I’ve been out looking at used mini-vans with ABS. In a number of them, it was very evident that the brake fluid was contaminated. I didn’t bother driving those. On some of those with contaminated fluid, the owners showed me bills for complete replacement of the ABS. There is clearly a chronic problem here. Driver education is not going to solve this problem. I’m going to pass on purchasing a CC mini-van with ABS until Chrysler publicly and clearly acknowleges the problem and demonstrates a real fix. Those of you trying to implicate driver failure are only deluding yourselves and delaying the required remedies. Steve Powers
Response:
: * If in an emergency, and in an automatic, shift into park. You may lose I would suggest that if you have not lost all braking, but the braking is very low, that shifting into neutral may be effective. A neutral shift is commonly taught for emergency stopping in slippery conditions, both with and without ABS. I’m sure its not true, but I heard a rumour that Chrysler Canada has made an arrangement with all Canadian cities and highways departments to leave snowbanks alongside all roads. The updated owners manual would recommend that drivers aim for the snowbank if their brakes fail. I think they will probably release this information on April 1st, while Canadians can still use their remaining snowbanks. Peter D. Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Response:
> I would suggest that if you have not lost all braking, but the braking is > very low, that shifting into neutral may be effective. A neutral shift > is commonly taught for emergency stopping in slippery conditions, both > with and without ABS.
That might be good for slippery conditions, but going into neutral when you are brakeless will greatly increase your stopping distance. Downshifting will throw engine compression into the equation on either automatics or manuals.. > I’m sure its not true, but I heard a rumour that Chrysler Canada has made > an arrangement with all Canadian cities and highways departments to leave > snowbanks alongside all roads. The updated owners manual would recommend > that drivers aim for the snowbank if their brakes fail. I think they > will probably release this information on April 1st, while Canadians can > still use their remaining snowbanks. > Peter D. > Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
– http://www.mordor.com/valiant/dave.html Powered by Macintosh 84 – 32-character filenames, Trash, and all!
Response:
: (snip) : >Here! Here! It’s about time that someone takes some initative to address one of the major problems : >with ABS. This problem, lack of driver education!! I know Charlene disagrees but, I feel that ABS : >operation MUST be taught to today’s drivers. If not, they will scared s___less the first time that : >they actually use it and may suffer injury or worse. : >– I do not disagree with educating drivers at all. The fact is, however, that driver education is *not* the answer for the problems with the Bendix-10 ABS. These systems are experiencing *MECHANICAL* failures which cannot be avoided no matter how much driver education the owner has. This is not merely my opinion….it is documented and other owners can attest to it. To whitewash a problem such as the Bendix-10 failures by blaming the incidents on "driver error" is *worse* than absurd. This is nothing more than a nice smokescreen for the auto manuf. to hide behind to escape any blame themselves. Can owners cause the permanent failure of their ABS just because they are not pressing the pedal correctly? Why has this happened to those who already *know* how to use ABS? How, then, do you explain all those TSBs on the Bendix-10? And you think that a little driver education is the answer?? BTW, there is not *one word* in my owner’s manual on how to use ABS; I already knew how to use ABS; my system completely and permanently failed. Please explain this to me using the theory you have stated above. Thank you. : For those owners who have experienced the ABS failures, do take the "driver error" theory with a grain of salt and question this explanation until "proof positive" is provided. Naturally, the automaker may want to avoid facing the music on this one as it will be most expensive for them. They would prefer you paying for the repairs while being basically unknowledgeable of the situation. And as for safety….I doubt you will get a guarantee that your ABS is safe following repair. Just remember, the gamble will be your *own*. — Charlene Blake Springfield, VA
Response:
*If you shifted to "Park" while underway (assuming you could avoid *"Reverse"), the transmission would probably just break and you’d coast *as if in "Neutral". Probably true. Let me revise that. Shift to REVERSE if there’s an emergency and you lose your brakes…shift down to the lower gears (2, then 1) if you losee your brakes and there’s no immediate emerggency…but use the EMERGENCY (parking) BRAKE first!!! (Either way it’s bad for the transmission, of course)
Response:
>* If in an emergency, and in an automatic, shift into park. You may lose >your transmission (though not if you have a TorqueFlite!) but you may >save your life.
Downshifting, yes, but I don’t believe "Park" is a good idea. If I understand things correctly, only a relatively small pin in the transmission keeps the wheels from turning, otherwise "Park" is like "Neutral". (This is why most, if not all owners manuals tell you to always place the parking brake when parked). If you shifted to "Park" while underway (assuming you could avoid "Reverse"), the transmission would probably just break and you’d coast as if in "Neutral". Regards, CANADA |
Response:
>but the responses of two people I expected to >understand the operation of the system baffles me. I have already begun >planning for an ABS clinic for our present owners to address what I can >only explain as kind of an "ABS buck fever". >While this is not a clear cut system failure, requiring the replacement of >mechanical parts, I would be interested in any comments and especially >advice.
Here! Here! It’s about time that someone takes some initative to address one of the major problems with ABS. This problem, lack of driver education!! I know Charlene disagrees but, I feel that ABS operation MUST be taught to today’s drivers. If not, they will scared s___less the first time that they actually use it and may suffer injury or worse. — R. Bruce Orrell Technical Specialist PROTECH Consulting Inc. http://www.protech.on.ca/
Response:
> >but the responses of two people I expected to >understand the operation of the system baffles me. I have already begun >planning for an ABS clinic for our present owners to address what I can >only explain as kind of an "ABS buck fever". >While this is not a clear cut system failure, requiring the replacement of >mechanical parts, I would be interested in any comments and especially >advice. > Here! Here! It’s about time that someone takes some initative to
address one of the major problems > with ABS. This problem, lack of driver education!! I know Charlene
disagrees but, I feel that ABS > operation MUST be taught to today’s drivers. If not, they will scared
s___less the first time that > they actually use it and may suffer injury or worse. > — > R. Bruce Orrell > Technical Specialist > PROTECH Consulting Inc. > http://www.protech.on.ca/
I agree that education about ABS is badly needed. American consumers are in need of education about a lot of technical issues. (And consumers of other nationalities are probably not much, if any, better educated about technical issues.) And I am amazed that a service manager (Where? Affiliated with which manufacturer?) would be this uneducated about ABS. However, it is VERY important that we also understand that there ARE a lot of real ABS failures occurring. We have had three brake failures, and both I and my wife know what a normal ABS actuation is like. The dealer that "band-aided" my brakes after the first failure (following Chrysler’s service guidelines) initially denied that they had seen ANY repeat failures. I later learned that this dealer had re-purchased several vehicles with multiple ABS failures for Chrysler. I have since talked to two other dealer’s service managers, who both also denied any knowledge of repeat failures. To ignore and deny a problem of this magnitude is very bad for any company’s reputation and future business. David E. Price Safety Analyst Hazards Control – Safety Analysis Group Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory — Microsoft Network is prohibited from redistributing this work in any form, in whole or in part. Copyright, David E. Price, 1995.
Response:
> I agree wholeheartedly with this too, I received ABS brakes training > awhile back and while I already knew how the system worked and how the > system reacts, most of the other drivers present obviously did not. It > really doesn’t take all that long to feel and understand how ABS works, > just one panic stop where you keep your damn foot glued to the floorboard > should do it.
I agree with this, and I also agree that the Bendix ABS-10 seems to be a poor design. I would also though like to say that people should be taught what to do when the brakes fail: * If in a manual trans, downshift. * Use the emergency brake. * If in an emergency, and in an automatic, shift into park. You may lose your transmission (though not if you have a TorqueFlite!) but you may save your life.
Response:
Today, our service manager came to me because he wanted to test the ABS brakes in a 95 Stratus ES demonstrator. He said he was looking into an ABS failure on a 96 Cirrus LX driven by the Dealer’s wife as a demo. She had reported that the brakes failed while coming down a steep hill on a snowy day this past weekend, and had also reported that she was unable to turn the steering wheel during the failure. The service manager had taken the Cirrus to a parking lot this morning and, in his own words, "could not stop the car". I went with him in the Stratus and we tried the brakes in a panic stop at about 25MPH. As soon as the ABS began to pulse I was pushed forward by the deceleration and we could hear the ABS pump cycling. He pulled his foot off the brake pedal and said "It does the same thing!". It took a few more passes before he began to relax and use the brakes correctly. I did notice that the noise of the pump and sound of the system was considerably louder than that on my 96 Caravan. I am dumbfounded by the service manager’s reaction to what I percieved as normal operation of the system. I later went to a snowy parking lot with the Dealer’s wife and we used the system in her Cirrus. She was able to use the brakes properly and agreed that they allowed her to safely manuver the vehicle during operation, but was unable to tell me whether they were working any differently than they were on the afternoon that she experienced the failure. A technician later examined the ABS system in the Cirrus and could find no problem. I am at a loss to explain this incident. It appears that this was the first time the service manager or the Dealer’s wife had actually called on an ABS system to work, but the responses of two people I expected to understand the operation of the system baffles me. I have already begun planning for an ABS clinic for our present owners to address what I can only explain as kind of an "ABS buck fever". While this is not a clear cut system failure, requiring the replacement of mechanical parts, I would be interested in any comments and especially advice. Lee Glynn
Response:
(snip) >Here! Here! It’s about time that someone takes some initative to address one of the major problems >with ABS. This problem, lack of driver education!! I know Charlene disagrees but, I feel that ABS >operation MUST be taught to today’s drivers. If not, they will scared s___less the first time that >they actually use it and may suffer injury or worse. >–
I agree wholeheartedly with this too, I received ABS brakes training awhile back and while I already knew how the system worked and how the system reacts, most of the other drivers present obviously did not. It really doesn’t take all that long to feel and understand how ABS works, just one panic stop where you keep your damn foot glued to the floorboard should do it. Eric Bin
Response:
In a continuing effort to compile *factual* data, I would like to know have the following information from those who have experienced ABS malfunction/failure/component replacement in a CC vehicle: 1) Year and model of vehicle 2) Nature of problem 3) Mileage and age when problem occurred 4) Under warranty or no? 5) Were you negotiating with the dealership where you bought the car or a different one? 6) What was the resolution: -They took care of it under warranty? -They took care of it thought out of warranty? -They gave you a small amount toward it, you paid balance? (often part at no cost; you pay labor) -You paid all and received partial/tull reimbursement later -Any other scenario not mentioned above? If you wish to have a resource re: the ABS problem and the current gov’t ABS investigation of some CC vehicle models, first contact the NHTSA Auto Safety Hotline at (800) 424-9393 to report the situation you had. Then, contact the Center for Auto Safety at (202) 328-7700 to report the same and obtain some additional info. You might also try "Consumer for Auto Reliability and Safety" at (916) 759-9440, esp. if you are close to Sacramento. (CAS and the NHTSA are in Washington, DC) For Canadians, call Transport Canada (I have the # I can look up). E-mail me privately with any further questions or for more info. Thank you. — Charlene Blake Springfield, VA