LV described Mulay best, back in late-2004: Well, let’s see – you accuse me of being a Nazi, and I say no I’m not.  Next, you can accuse me of belonging to NAMBLA, and I get to deny *that*.  And so it goes.  Who gives a shit? I’m not here to deny every accusation a fucking mental patient like *you* makes.  That zootwoman e-mail CCed to this NG by Doug tells the tale – you’re a violent nutcase, on medication for your condition.  Now, *you* can deny *that*, son, but from where I’m standing it appears that corroborating evidence has been tendered. Choke on it, asshole. Lord Valve "Nazi" And recently, I’m amazed when I see people here who’re actually corresponding with this lunatic (Mulay), especially if they’re familiar with his history in this NG… you all must realize how ill he is and have much more compassion than I do – OR – you just don’t know what a WHACKO you’re dealing with… Personally, I have zero tolerance for a fucking whacko who threatens people in a NG, by saying he’d like to duct tape / tie them up, kill them, rape them, and cut them up with a bone saw. No firearms necessary over in this neck of the woods…he’d find himself on the wrong end of a Marine Combat Knife if he were ever stupid enough to try and "make good on his threat". User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.7.3 (Windows/20040803) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.guitar.amps Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 26 NNTP-Posting-Host: 68.5.73.121 EDT) Organization: Cox Communications Xref: wnmaster12 alt.guitar.amps:633374 (bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net) Parvat fugla, Loop ‘n fareep dun upped ma tharst fer kute main luv. Ahm gon kum gitcha fer sum moonlat hont luv. 1.) winderless van 2.) ether own a rag 3.) duk taype 4.) lawtsa rope 5.) bone saw 6.) plastik baggs 7.) roll up karpet ah weel luv U till yor las gag then poot a fuk in ya ded jes fer funn. ah will brang wd40 n budder fer luvin. xoxoxox GITTERDUN!!! PS – Buzz off, baldy – LOL!

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Earlier today we found out that the EFF had sued AT&T over their secret work with the NSA on surveillance of millions of US citizens without wiretaps. We learned that paragraph 65 of this complaint shows EFF is trying to turn it into a nationwide Class Action suit covering all current and former customers (any after 9/2001) of AT&T. And we learned that a retired AT&T technician had stepped forward and disclosed the installation of secret NSA spy equipment in the San Francisco trunk facility. As well as the belief that similar equipment is in place in Seattle, San Jose, Los Angeles and San Diego. Specifically, this equipment was the Narus ST-6400, a machine that was capable of monitoring over 622 Mbits/second in real time in May, 2000, and capturing anything that hits its’ semantice (i.e. the meaning of the content) triggers. The latest generation is called NarusInsight, capable of monitoring 10 billion bits of data per second. Follow me over the jump and let’s learn some more about the private company Narus, it’s founder Ovi Cohen, and board member Bill Crowell. Shall we? bewert’s diary :: :: Narus is a private company founded in 1997 by Ori Cohen, who had been in charge of technology development for VDONet, an early media streaming pioneer. It has venture funding from an all-star team of investors including JP Morgan Partners, Mayfield, NeoCarta, Presidio Venture Partners, Walden International, Intel, NTT Software and Sumisho Electronics. Of note is that while Hoover’s company factsheet on Narus continues to list Mr. Cohen as Chairman, while Narus’s own website listing of the Board of Directors no longer mentions Mr. Cohen. Prior to 9/11 Narus worked on building carrier-grade tools to analyze IP network traffic for billing purposes, to prevent what they term "revenue leakage". Post-9/11 they have continued down that path while adding more semantic monitoring abilities for surveillance purposes. They even brought in former Deputy Director of the NSA William P. Crowell as an addition to their Board of Directors. From the Press Release announcing this: Crowell is an independent security consultant and holds several board positions with a variety of technology and technology-based security companies. Since 9/11, Crowell has served on the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency (DARPA) Task Force on Terrorism and Deterrence, the National Research Council Committee on Science and Technology for Countering Terrorism and the Markle Foundation Task Force on National Security in the Information Age. His past positions have included president and chief executive officer of Cylink, a leading provider of e-business security solutions, as well as a series of senior positions at the National Security Agency, including deputy director of operations and deputy director of the Agency. Crowell has served as chairman of the President’s Export Council (PEC) Subcommittee on Encryption, which worked with the Administration, Congress and private industry to substantially loosen restrictions on the export of encryption products and technology. "Narus has an impressive track record of working with tier-one carriers to keep their networks running safely, continuously and profitably," said William Crowell. "I look forward to helping Narus as they forge new strategic partnerships and continue to break new ground in the telecommunications industry." So these guys (1) build hugely cool network monitoring devices and (2) are tied into US (at least) national security organizations at the highest levels. What are these hugely cool machines capable of? >From the Key Features list of NarusInsight

-Universal data collection from links, routers, soft switches, IDS/IPS, databases, etc. provides total network view across the world’s largest IP networks. -Normalization, Correlation, Aggregation and Analysis provide a comprehensive and detailed model of user, element, protocol, application and network behaviors, in real time. -Seven 9s reliability from data collection to data processing and analysis. -Industry-leading packet processing performance that supports network speeds of up to OC-192 at layer 4 and OC-48 at layer 7, enabling carriers to monitor traffic at either the edge of the network or at the core. -Unsurpassed and limitless scalability to support the world’s largest, most complex IP networks. -Unparalleled flexibility — NarusInsight’s functionality can easily be configured to meet any specific customer requirement (Narus Software Developer Kit -SDK). -Unparalleled extensibility — NarusInsight’s functionality can easily be configured to feed a particular activity or IP service such as security, lawful intercept or even Skype detection and blocking. How powerful is this? OC-192 carries about 10 gigabits of data per second.  Ten billion bits per second, monitored in real-time. That is stunning. This is one damned powerful machine, one of the most powerful I’ve ever heard of in 25 years in IT. And what does it monitor while looking at this 10 billion bits of IP data per second? First lets take a look at what the network model is, the OSI model of seven layers. NarusInsight focuses on two layers: number four, the transport layer, built on standards like TCP and UDP, the physical building blocks of internet data traffic, and number seven, the application layer, built on standards like HTTP and FTP, which are dependent on the application using them, i.e. Internet Explorer, Kazaa, Skype, etc. It monitors 10 billion bits per second at level four and 2500 million bits per second at level seven. For reference, the 256K DSL line I am using equals .24 million bits per second. So one NarusInsight machine can look at 10,000 million DSL lines at once in great detail. That is a pretty damn big number. This is some really serious hardware with equally serious software. Which is our next subject. So what exactly is done to and with this data? That’s kind of a grey area, so let’s try to find what we can. The starting point is called the Internet Protocol Detail Record, which Narus helped found. From that FAQ I just linked to, we learn that IPDR stands for the Internet Protocol Detail Record, the name comes from the traditional telecom term CDR (Call Detail Record), used to record information about usage activity within the telecom infrastructure (such as a call completion). NDM-U stands for Network Data Management – Usage. It refers to a functional operation within the Telecom Management Forum’s Telecom Operations Map. The NDM function collects data from devices and services in a service providers network. Usage refers to the type of data which is the focus of this document. IPDR.org is the non-profit organization that promotes use of the IPDR NDM-U and other related standards. The principle deliverable for IPDR.org is the NDM-U specification and related development tools. And is it actually being used? IPDR.org has been in existence since 1999 and more than a dozen vendors have actual IPDR implementations "etched in code". Their systems are actually able to talk to each other and interoperate. Version 2.5 and up of the NDM-U represents a stable basis for development. IPDR.org’s Interoperability Pavilion is a working demonstration of multiple companies exchanging service usage data in that format. Service usage data. That would be data on the actual usage of the Internet. And what kind of data would this be? Way back in 1999, this article stated In an effort to provide more complex network traffic analysis, Narus is introducing its semantic network traffic service. The company cites research which predicts the fast-growing ISP sector will become stagnant without the ability to offer differentiated services. In order to gain significant revenues from these services, a technology was necessary to allow usage based pricing. "We realized that, at the heart of the data that is needed to accurately measure usage and enable ‘pay-as-you-go’ business models for Internet service providers, is what we call the ’semantics’ of network traffic," said Ori Cohen, Narus’ founder and chief executive officer. "In short, by seeing the ’semantics’ of network traffic, service providers can see ‘inside’ the data, providing much more detailed insight about the use of the Internet and the perceived value of specific applications than existing technologies allow." Semantic Traffic Analysis uses network technology to consistently capture and analyze all IP data streams on heavily trafficked networks remotely and non-invasively. In addition, the semantics of the data stream are determined also, as well as the protocol used and the application taking place. A variety of other data is available as well. Remember that semantics is not just the data, but rather the meaning of the data. It looks at the the data in a more comprehensive way than looking for keywords. Each NarusInsight machine does this at 2500 million bits per second, in real-time. You really wonder why BushCo doesn’t want to talk about this stuff? It’s the biggest invasion of privacy in history by several orders of magnitude. How can we know? From Narus’ Lawful Intercept and Regulatory Compliance page: Explosive Internet growth in recent years has transformed worldwide communications, yielding tremendous efficiencies and benefits, as well as many risks. For example, terrorist attacks around the globe have been carefully orchestrated through Internet-based forms of communications such as e-mail, messaging, hidden Web pages and now VoIP, forcing governmental organizations and law enforcement agencies to re-evaluate how they are providing public security as it becomes so much easier and faster to communicate electronically. Recent mandates and the resulting standards referenced under CALEA in the United States and ETSI in Western Europe aim to preserve the right of law enforcement agencies to conduct authorized electronic surveillance in an effort to protect the public and its right to … read more »

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>Doesn’t Southwest have a reputation of generous award seat availability, >perhaps due to its quick expiration of frequent flyer credits which >limits the "inflation" of its frequent flyer credit "currency"?

If Southwest goes where you want to go (domestic only), they clearly have the best program. If a seat is available, you can have it, subject to just a couple of blackout days each year. tickets are good for up to 12 months after being earned.

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> Wasn’t it a few years ago that the Economist magazine had an > editorial suggesting that inflation was likely in airline mile > "currency", due to the ever increasing amount of it ready to be used?

Airline miles Frequent-flyer economics May 2nd 2002 From The Economist print edition One of the world’s main currencies is heading for a fall THE world has a new international currency: frequent-flyer miles. Launched exactly 21 years ago, they are a lot like money. Collectors check their mileage statements as keenly as their bank statements. American courts often place a value on mileage balances in the course of divorce settlements. In a recent poll of frequent travellers, two-thirds said that they see frequent-flyer miles as the next best thing to actual cash: almost half even thought they should earn interest on their accounts. Will they still be as keen a year from now? Maybe not. This peculiar new currency has not been well-managed. Devaluation is on the cards. Frequent-flyer miles started as a marketing gimmick, but they have become a lucrative business. Airlines sell miles to partners, such as credit-card companies and car-rental agencies. Roughly half of all miles are now earned on the ground, not in the air. This makes them ever easier to acquire. At the end of April, the worldwide stock of unredeemed miles was probably close to 8.5 trillion (see article). Miles can be worth anywhere between two and nine cents apiece when they are used to buy an air ticket. Valued at the mid-point of this range, the total global stock of frequent-flyer miles may now be worth almost $500 billion. Comparing this with all the notes and coins in circulation around the globe, frequent-flyer miles could be said to be the world’s second-biggest currency after the dollar. Indeed, at its present pace of growth the stock of miles is likely to overtake the physical stock of dollars within two years. Of course this ignores the much bigger stock of dollars sitting in bank accounts. But frequent-flyers care more about liquidity

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> sound like your just a whiner sir. >  I just came back from a cruise on NCL norwegian sea and got the best > treadment of many a cruiseline I sailed. >  yes twice we were notefied that during the day a planned maintenance > shutdown was to be held. >  do you rather have them shut it down for no reason ?? they were finished > way before the given time and every thing was back to normal. > I don’t know of any cruiseline with choice matresses or bedding. >  as far as unsuitable room did it ever occure to you to read the brochure > ??? >  as far as photographing people its also explained in the brochure that > security has increased. >  In my opinion people like you should stay home, cause nothing will ever > please you. >  Jaap van Dorp >  Former Chief Electrician >  Holland America line

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> And I would never drink brown water.

Or eat yellow snow! — George in PA    www.countryside-travel.com Norwegian Dawn www.cruisemaster.com/dawn.htm Sleazy 3 – Carnival Conquest www.cruisemaster.com/sleazy3.htm

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> I have to agree that NCL is a waste of money.  In 95 we were on our > last NCL cruise, it was the Dreamward before it was lengthened.

In 1995 NCL was quite literally a different company, one that was on the brink of bankruptcy. The cruise line is now owned by Star Cruises which seems to have pumped a lot of cash not only into new ships, but to spruce up the older ships of the fleet. My opinion is that NCL experiences (both good and bad) prior to Star’s takeover should be taken with a fine grain of salt. The only similarity is the name of the cruise line. Warren

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sound like your just a whiner sir.  I just came back from a cruise on NCL norwegian sea and got the best treadment of many a cruiseline I sailed.  yes twice we were notefied that during the day a planned maintenance shutdown was to be held.  do you rather have them shut it down for no reason ?? they were finished way before the given time and every thing was back to normal. I don’t know of any cruiseline with choice matresses or bedding.  as far as unsuitable room did it ever occure to you to read the brochure ???  as far as photographing people its also explained in the brochure that security has increased.  In my opinion people like you should stay home, cause nothing will ever please you.  Jaap van Dorp  Former Chief Electrician  Holland America line

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    Overall Value: Poor     Cleanliness of Ship: Poor     Cabin Appearance: Poor     Entertainment: Poor     Embarkation: Poor     Disembarkation: Poor     Dining Choices: Poor     Speed of Check-In: Poor     Staff & Service: Poor     Stateroom & Cleanliness: Poor     Variety of Shore Excursions: Poor     Price of Excursions: Poor Issues: We have experienced a number of critical issues on our cruise, which contributed to numerous inconveniences, which are outlined below in the table. During our cruise, we have informed Norwegian Majesty personnel during our cruise and have requested to speak with management to resolve all of these issues; but our repeated requests were summarily denied.  Needless to say, none of the issues were ever resolved. Type of Issue   Issue Unsuitable Accommodations       On May 1, 2003, Donna, Costco Travel informed we she ordered "corrugated mattress" (eggshells) on our beds. This material was not furnished in our cabin and the cruise line indicated that they did not have any onboard the vessel.     Reported this to Josephine P. Lim 5-18-03     Reported this to Tatiana Montenegro, Latitudes Consultant 5-20-03 Customer Service        The check-in process was convoluted and time-consuming. We had to wait in over several different lines before we could get onto the ship: check-in, luggage, get our keycards, etc. There were several entrances outside the port and none of them were clearly marked, which could help educate customers on where they need to be. I informed Orcun (staff member) three times during approximately 2PM on 5-16-03 that I did not want to be photographed; nonetheless he insisted and attempted to put his arms around me. Unsuitable Accommodations       Our cabin 6009 had two single beds, which was not convertible into queen size beds. We were not informed of this when we booked our cruise, I specifically, told the Costco rep, that this trip was to highlight our ten year anniversary.  Had we been advised about the bed issue when we booked the cruise, we would have pursued alternative options.     Reported this to Josephine P. Lim 5-18-03     Reported this to Tatiana Montenegro, Latitudes Consultant 5-20-03 Bad Smell & Sanitary Conditions in the Toilet, Cabin, and the Forward Cabin on Deck 6 Obnoxious odor     Reported this to Amy 2:20PM 5-19-03     Reported this to Mirela 3:00PM 5-19-03     Reported this to Ilene 5:00PM 5-19-03     Reported this to Florentina 8:50PM 5-19-03     Reported this to Tatiana Montenegro, Latitudes Consultant     Reported this to Olga 7:15PM 5-23-03 Health & Sanitary Conditions        I have informed the front-desk that the water from our cabin was coming out brown and I was informed that this was perfectly normal. While I was consuming the water, I experienced diarrhea for several days. When I attempted to visit the ship’s doctor, I was informed that there would be a $100 charge. Entertainment   Extensive CNN service disruption on May 22, 23, 24, and 25th. Health & Customer service   There were limited designated non-smoking locations. Since NCL did not have non-smoking sections on other decks, this caused us to inhale second-hand smoke and made it a very bad cruise experience for non-smokers. Additional Facts & Corroborative Evidence Provided to Us from Norwegian Cruise Line in a letter dated May 20, 2003, that was left in our cabin "Please be advised that we will shut off our water and toilet vacuum due to maintenance work which will commence at 1015A

Looks like the old Taras Shevchenko??

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Why would you expect them to?  Which TA do you know that sells timeshares? And maybe they don’t because of the overall feeling about timeshares in general.  Some are excellent, but the whole market has had more than its share of con artists. And finally, all TA’s are businessmen and women, interested in making a profit, that is what business is.  Since timeshares are never sold through TA’s, where is the profit in this for them? Interesting article, thanks for posting in spite of the negative spin you tried to apply. Lloyd In article – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Here is a cruise option the rtc ta’s will not tell you about. > http://www.cruiseshares.com/ > January 23, 2003 08:59 > EXA Signs Agreement For Cruise Ship > Jump to first matched term > DEERFIELD BEACH, Fla., Jan. 23 /PRNewswire-FirstCall/ — EXA, Inc. (OTC > Pink Sheets: EXAI) (formerly EXA International, Inc.) announced that > its subsidiary, CruiseUnit Project, Ltd., has signed a Main Terms > Agreement for the charter/purchase of a cruise ship. The ship is > currently sailing in Europe under charter to another cruise line. The > terms of the charter/purchase agreement are confidential and the > sellers have requested that the name of the ship not be disclosed at > this time. > The ship, which will sail under the Romantic Cruise Lines banner, has > larger staterooms and more common area space per passenger than most > modern cruise ships. EXA anticipates a ratio of one crew member to > every two passengers and that is twice the crew ratio found on today’s > newer mega-cruise ships. The itineraries will be announced after the > delivery date has been finalized. Stanley Priskie, EXA’s president > said, "The ship has 244 spacious staterooms, dining rooms, a casino, > two pools — one indoor, theater, gym and sauna, bars, lounges, and > hospital facilities. Our industrial marine consultant, C. Robert Ward, > has just returned from doing an inspection and survey that determines > the ship’s physical condition and what will be required to bring the > ship up to American luxury class standards. His initial assessment > is, ‘Since the ship was built in [East] Germany under the supervision > of Russian military engineers and the steel for the ship’s hull is made > to Russian military standards, she is the equivalent of a Sherman > Tank.’ It looks like the ship is in great shape and just needs some > cosmetic attention," added Priskie. > Cruiseshares has had several false starts in the marketing of its > program. One ship’s 20-year sailing life span is questionable due to > the changes in the Safety Of Life At Sea (SOLAS) requirements. The > second ship scheduled for delivery on December 1, 2002 was not > delivered and the sellers are not responding either to EXA’s inquiries > or to their maritime broker’s. EXA will avail itself of all legal > remedies in seeking recovery of its costs and expenses attributable to > the non-delivery of the ship. > Cruiseshares is the marriage of timesharing and cruising, offering an > extraordinary vacation value on unforgettable, port-oriented cruises > where owners will enjoy world class service to new and different > destinations each and every year…year after year. > Statements in this release are made pursuant to the "Safe Harbor" > provisions of the Private Securities Litigation Reform Act of 1995. > Investors are cautioned that like forward-looking statements, certain > risks and uncertainties are involved, including without limitation, > continued acceptance of the company’s services, increased levels of > competition for the company and dependence on the performance of the > management of the company. > SOURCE EXA International, Inc. > /CONTACT: Steven Priskie, EXA, Inc., +1-954-725-5570, or > /Web site: http://www.exainternational.com > http://www.cruiseshares.com/

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Why would you expect them to?  Which TA do you know that sells timeshares? And maybe they don’t because of the overall feeling about timeshares in general.  Some are excellent, but the whole market has had more than its share of con artists. And finally, all TA’s are businessmen and women, interested in making a profit, that is what business is.  Since timeshares are never sold through TA’s, where is the profit in this for them? Interesting article, thanks for posting in spite of the negative spin you tried to apply. Lloyd In article – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Here is a cruise option the rtc ta’s will not tell you about. > http://www.cruiseshares.com/ > January 23, 2003 08:59 > EXA Signs Agreement For Cruise Ship > Jump to first matched term > DEERFIELD BEACH, Fla., Jan. 23 /PRNewswire-FirstCall/ — EXA, Inc. (OTC > Pink Sheets: EXAI) (formerly EXA International, Inc.) announced that > its subsidiary, CruiseUnit Project, Ltd., has signed a Main Terms > Agreement for the charter/purchase of a cruise ship. The ship is > currently sailing in Europe under charter to another cruise line. The > terms of the charter/purchase agreement are confidential and the > sellers have requested that the name of the ship not be disclosed at > this time. > The ship, which will sail under the Romantic Cruise Lines banner, has > larger staterooms and more common area space per passenger than most > modern cruise ships. EXA anticipates a ratio of one crew member to > every two passengers and that is twice the crew ratio found on today’s > newer mega-cruise ships. The itineraries will be announced after the > delivery date has been finalized. Stanley Priskie, EXA’s president > said, "The ship has 244 spacious staterooms, dining rooms, a casino, > two pools — one indoor, theater, gym and sauna, bars, lounges, and > hospital facilities. Our industrial marine consultant, C. Robert Ward, > has just returned from doing an inspection and survey that determines > the ship’s physical condition and what will be required to bring the > ship up to American luxury class standards. His initial assessment > is, ‘Since the ship was built in [East] Germany under the supervision > of Russian military engineers and the steel for the ship’s hull is made > to Russian military standards, she is the equivalent of a Sherman > Tank.’ It looks like the ship is in great shape and just needs some > cosmetic attention," added Priskie. > Cruiseshares has had several false starts in the marketing of its > program. One ship’s 20-year sailing life span is questionable due to > the changes in the Safety Of Life At Sea (SOLAS) requirements. The > second ship scheduled for delivery on December 1, 2002 was not > delivered and the sellers are not responding either to EXA’s inquiries > or to their maritime broker’s. EXA will avail itself of all legal > remedies in seeking recovery of its costs and expenses attributable to > the non-delivery of the ship. > Cruiseshares is the marriage of timesharing and cruising, offering an > extraordinary vacation value on unforgettable, port-oriented cruises > where owners will enjoy world class service to new and different > destinations each and every year…year after year. > Statements in this release are made pursuant to the "Safe Harbor" > provisions of the Private Securities Litigation Reform Act of 1995. > Investors are cautioned that like forward-looking statements, certain > risks and uncertainties are involved, including without limitation, > continued acceptance of the company’s services, increased levels of > competition for the company and dependence on the performance of the > management of the company. > SOURCE EXA International, Inc. > /CONTACT: Steven Priskie, EXA, Inc., +1-954-725-5570, or > /Web site: http://www.exainternational.com > http://www.cruiseshares.com/

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Looks like the old Taras Shevchenko??

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 (snipped. absolute hogwash) Three factors amaze me… 1.  That anyone could have read the diuscussion of WN’s business plan and the problems facing the majors and have drawn from it the conclusion you did. 2.  That anyone had as dismally deficient comprehension of the US economy as you’ve dispalyed. 3.  That matching your pre-schooler’s economic comprehension, there’s a political disconnect which reveals you to the world as…                 "Dumber than a post and unaware of it" As we write, the majors are for better or worse and at varying rates of speed and effectiveness, attempting to alter their traditional business plans, aware that the old days as we knew them (and functioned ineffectively within) will never return.   No, they’re wisely not copying WN which has created not only its own niche, but birthed, nurtured and weaned big chunks of its own market, fostering the same sort of need-related brand loyalty that some auto manufacturers once could claim (and a couple still my). Right or wrong, they’ll arrive at and succeed or fail with their own (or copycat) plans. TMO

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>>>The majors have the advantage that they SHOULD be able to handle a wider >>variety of routes profitably because they have a more versatile fleet. >But also at an inherently higher cost per passenger mile. > Why should that be ?

First, because smaller planes are inherently more expensive.  Second, because on some routes, it may be harder to fill the planes as well as low cost operations which limit themselves to routes where they know they’ll consistently maintain a good load factor. >>It seems that in the past, the airlines put a premium on the non-stop service. >And people will pay for that.  So, what’s the point? > But it costs the airline less to provide the non-stop instead of the > connecting flight. By charging a premium for the non-stop, you push people to > choose the cheaper ticket option with connecting flights which end up costing > the airline much much more and reducing the load factor on the non-stop flight.

Again, depends.  Nonstop flights may entail using smaller planes and/or living with lower load factors.  Both leading to higher costs. > I once flew CP from montreal to New York to get points. They matched AC’s > fares. But it was through Toronto. (YUL-YYZ, then YYZ-LGA). Do you seriously > think that CP made a profit with me for that ticket ? I essentially got 4 > flights for the price of 2.

They may have made a profit to the extent that they would not otherwise have sold that seat. This said, that sort of business gets tricky.  You can’t make a profit by filling your plane with cheap fare folks. Which brings us to the core of the current problem: when the airlines lose the high yield passengers, they get in trouble. Situation being basically that the majors (1) are primarily in the business of catering to these folks but (2) because their planes have been too big for the market, they have been in a situation whereby they also needed to discount the rest of the plane to meet the costs. You lose the first, and on the second you can’t compete with WN.  Trouble. > Airlines must switch from what they think "the market will bear" and "we must > match our competitors" to a philosphy of charging for what it costs.

No argument there.  But the other side of that equation is: what will customers be willing to psy?  At which point do I decide to endure Air Transat rather than paying for Mapleflot when taking the family to Europe? >Sure.  I think that’s again exactly what I was trying to say: as long as >they are set up in such a way that they need to discount to death to >sell the last of their seats, they are shooting themselves in the foot. >Which is why they need smaller (but efficient) planes.  Nowadays these >are available. > But the US airlines (except of UA and Northwest) don’t have large planes. What > they do is to fly small planes very often, but because they have long layovers > at hubs to allow for transfers etc, the airlines need far more planes than necessary.

If they lose money, presumably it is because they don’t have enough customers willing to pay enough to cover costs, isn’t it?  So, their planes must be too large for a good chunk of their network. In contrast, low costs limit themselves to routes which they can run profitably at the price they are paying. I wouln’t be surprised if, when limiting the comparison to these routes alone, the majors would be doing OK too on these. Which is by and large what you limit your argument to. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->The low costs are inherently limited to only some specific markets. > I am not sure about that.  Look at City Express in Canada. They were able to > operate Dash-8s at low cost betwen Montreal and Toronto while Air Canada was > charging an arm and a leg. had it not been for AC’s predatory pricing and FF > plan, City Express would have survived. > Now, if City Express was able to operate low cost flights, how come AC > Regional couldn’t ? There is no reason why AC regional (or whatever name they > have this week) wouldn’t be able to provide low cost service/fares between > Montreal and Toronto. > AC Regional should be much better capable of offering low fares than Tango > (which is essentially AC mainline operation with a different sticker on the > plane). Yet AC regional charges the same fares as AC mainline.

You are talking about the quintessential limited market here.  Shuttle between two large cities.  But talk about flying from YYZ to Saskatatoon.   (Ever watch Rumpole .) You can’t expect low fare to serve more than perhaps a dozen Canadian cities, and you can’t expect them to offer seamless overseas service. > Another example is AA’s puddle jumper service between New York and Montreal. > AA’s fancy yield management computer decides it can match AC’s exhorbitant > fares and make a profit with only 2-3 pax on the plane.  But it fails to see > the opportunity of offering low fares and fill the plane while still being > profitable.  It would create a market and compete against bus/train as well as > serving business travellers.

Again, it is conceivable that there is room for a low cost in that market. This said, in a sensible competitive market, what we should end up with is the majors offering a typical economy fare that’s not outrageously different than the low cost fare, plus a J/F fare that is 30-40% higher.   This is not happening because the market is not competitive, hence what you call "AC’s outrageous fare." This is not really an issue of low cost vs. major.

Response:

> Sorry if I’m being dense here, but _why_ does having feeder planes > increase the costs of mainline? Are you assuming that each leg of a

No, doesn’t increase cost of mainline but increase overall cost to his airline (relative to revenue). > ticket won’t be priced independently? If JF-Airlines says ‘oh, you > want to fly from Los Angeles to Podunk, OH? That’s a free add-on to > your flight to Cincinnati’ (or, worse, ‘that’ll cost you less than > flying to Cincy’), _then_ the feeders will put your mainline costs up > (or rather your mainline revenues down). But that’s precisely one of > the fallacies that the majors are falling into — a large ‘non-stop

I’d wager that’s precisely what will still happen if the hypothetical CVG is a fortress hub. > premium’ that suddenly goes away when you connect. (Although I can > certainly see that the market will happily accept a small non-stop > premium — up to about 25% or so. Nevertheless, the mere existence of > hidden city and throwaway ticketing proves how stupid the airline > pricing systems are.)

Not if you have a fortress hub.

Response:

> They have reseach & experience that suggests that the majority of their > passengers prefer the choice in flight time vs a single larger flight. > And it is that very research which has driven the airlines to near bankrupcy > because their insistance to run high frequencies which prevents them from > gaining the efficiencies needed to compete against low cost carriers. > Business travellers are no longer willing to pay 3 times the normal fare just > for the convenience of a few more flights per day.

Then why does WN offer about 30 flights a day (every half hour) between DAL and HOU? Rich — Visit America’s Aviation Headquarters: www.usaviation.com

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Lets say Jetblue has a fleet of 10 A320s and JF-Airlines has a fleet of 30 > flying skidoos and 30 A320s. > Are you saying that because JF-Airlines has more than one fleet type that the > use of its A320s would cost more per pax-mile than JetBlue ? If I have as > many > or more A320s than JetBlue, then there is no reason why I shouldn’t have > equal > or lower seat mile costs operaying the 320, notwidthstanding whatever other > plane type I might have. > Perhaps you’ve asnwered your own question.   By having a mixed fleet, > you’re implying that you will use them to feed regional/small jet > flights to/from the large mainline jets.  More flights will cost you > more money for the same fare. > The only way you can avoid your own hypothesis is to make sure the > regional jet routing is independent of the mainline jets, that you;re o > hubbing.

Sorry if I’m being dense here, but _why_ does having feeder planes increase the costs of mainline? Are you assuming that each leg of a ticket won’t be priced independently? If JF-Airlines says ‘oh, you want to fly from Los Angeles to Podunk, OH? That’s a free add-on to your flight to Cincinnati’ (or, worse, ‘that’ll cost you less than flying to Cincy’), _then_ the feeders will put your mainline costs up (or rather your mainline revenues down). But that’s precisely one of the fallacies that the majors are falling into — a large ‘non-stop premium’ that suddenly goes away when you connect. (Although I can certainly see that the market will happily accept a small non-stop premium — up to about 25% or so. Nevertheless, the mere existence of hidden city and throwaway ticketing proves how stupid the airline pricing systems are.) The other issue, and I’ve harped on about it before, is that if you have stupid union contracts that require bidding based on seniority, and mandate widespread retraining at company expense any time you change the fleet mix, then fleet changes become that much more expensive and the company becomes less nimble — and that makes a mixed fleet more expensive than a single-type fleet.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Perhaps you’ve asnwered your own question.   By having a mixed fleet, > you’re implying that you will use them to feed regional/small jet > flights to/from the large mainline jets.  More flights will cost you > more money for the same fare. > The idea is to size jets to match demand. What shouldn’t be done is to > artificially increase frequencies by reducing jet size. > One shouldn’t put a 747 when the market is only big enough to support a 737. > But one shouldn’t put 4 737s on a market that is big enough to support a 747. > If you only have one route that supports a 747, you can make an exception and > be less efficient by using 4 737s on that route since a single route isn’t big > enough to warrant a 747. But if you have many routes that could make use of a > 747, then you would start to save money by being more efficient.

No, you only need a 747 when the market can support several 747s a day.   I wouldn;t want a once daily 747 service if I cna have 4x daily 737 service. And if service is seasonal (weekly, monthly, quarterly yearly, etc), what happens wheny ou are running empty 747s?  Can’t redeploy 1/4, 1/3 or 1/2 a 747 to another route, can you?

Response:

> > They have reseach & experience that suggests that the majority of their > passengers prefer the choice in flight time vs a single larger flight. > And it is that very research which has driven the airlines to near bankrupcy > because their insistance to run high frequencies which prevents them from > gaining the efficiencies needed to compete against low cost carriers. > Business travellers are no longer willing to pay 3 times the normal fare just > for the convenience of a few more flights per day.

  "No longer" is a tad unfair.  "currently" would be a better choice. The majors are far more exposed to the business cycle than Southwest and other carriers.  They pursued a very profitable market for years, decades to some extent.  It isn’t clear that it won’t return. The market segment the majors pursued may have become saturated with products, it certianly appeared that way even pre 9-11.  That doesn’t mean the market isn’t there, nor profitable.  It just means that a contraction in the market is required, and to some extent we are seeing that.  There is a tendency to view airline economics on a national basis, but the world market issues will come to bear soon.  As it becomes less clear exactly what a "domestic airline" is, foreign competition will rearrange the US market to a great extent.  WN may get caught competing with strong airlines which aren’t "domestic only" service.  Their current strength could end up being their weakness.  Larger, better capitalized, and more diverse airlines less sensitive to the market cycles in any particular region could be a tough competitor to WN.

Response:

> > They have reseach & experience that suggests that the majority of their > passengers prefer the choice in flight time vs a single larger flight. > And it is that very research which has driven the airlines to near bankrupcy > because their insistance to run high frequencies which prevents them from > gaining the efficiencies needed to compete against low cost carriers.

who offer high service frequency > Business travellers are no longer willing to pay 3 times the normal fare just > for the convenience of a few more flights per day.

but they still want service frequency

Response:

> They have reseach & experience that suggests that the majority of their > passengers prefer the choice in flight time vs a single larger flight.

And it is that very research which has driven the airlines to near bankrupcy because their insistance to run high frequencies which prevents them from gaining the efficiencies needed to compete against low cost carriers. Business travellers are no longer willing to pay 3 times the normal fare just for the convenience of a few more flights per day.

Response:

>But one shouldn’t put 4 737s on a market that is big enough to support a 747.

The airlines would disagree with you, if you are talking about demand at a point in time vs. spread out over 6 or 8 hours. They have reseach & experience that suggests that the majority of their passengers prefer the choice in flight time vs a single larger flight.

Response:

> Times of affluence will return, and the business model of the majors will no > longer seem so stupidly out of date.

When you look at the majors, over time, they have not been profitable. And this time, the "bottom" may kill off one or more majors. Even during the boom of the 1990s, the majors were concerned about the low cost airlines, be it Southwest or Valuejet. The current slum is both forcing and enabling the majors to make major changes. I say enabling because now is the time that unions are more likely to chanmge contracts. After 9/11, Air Canada was able to quickly revise its contract with its pilots which not only broke all the fancy blue sky" commitments to increase fleet size, but allowed AC to dump a whole wad of planes *AND* put in CRJs at the regional, something which would have caused big time striokes in the past. The DC-9s and Pesky F-28s aren’t coming back. > Southwest will return somewhat to its > niche market serving a limited number of patrons on a limited number of > routes with limited service levels.

No. Southwest and Jetblue will continue to grow and will probably grow faster than the majors, unless the majors can match their performance and price. It isn’t just the low price that attracts customers, it is also their reliability and efficiency. > Why fly at the level of the > lowest-common-denominator when one can well afford a more pleasant journey?

Sorry, but the US airlines have not been known as "comfortable" airlines in a long long time. AA may have increased seat pitch (good move), but it has decreased food service from their already dismal levels as have most other US carriers for domestic service. It is unlikely that those will be increased back when good times return because the majors will still be less efficient than Southwest. I think it is more likely to see JetBlue add meal service to their long haul flights for a $10 increase in price and provide service levels that the majors could never hope to achieve. > 4 lanes closed on NJ turnpike after traffic slump level

No, that should read: NJ turnpike turned into a bicycle path with one lane reserved to buses. > Bike sales triple during last quarter

Yeah ! > Former President Bush convicted for crimes against humanity committed during > prolonged Iraqi invasion

You forgot illegal detention of folks in one of its military bases in Cuba.

Response:

> Perhaps you’ve asnwered your own question.   By having a mixed fleet, > you’re implying that you will use them to feed regional/small jet > flights to/from the large mainline jets.  More flights will cost you > more money for the same fare.

The idea is to size jets to match demand. What shouldn’t be done is to artificially increase frequencies by reducing jet size. One shouldn’t put a 747 when the market is only big enough to support a 737. But one shouldn’t put 4 737s on a market that is big enough to support a 747. If you only have one route that supports a 747, you can make an exception and be less efficient by using 4 737s on that route since a single route isn’t big enough to warrant a 747. But if you have many routes that could make use of a 747, then you would start to save money by being more efficient.

Response:

MYOPIC: Pertaining to, or affected with, or characterized by, myopia; nearsighted. With the Dow at its lowest level in 5 years, combined with the effects of a recession, all you fools can do is persist and persist and persist that Southwest is the way of the future, forever more Times of affluence will return, and the business model of the majors will no longer seem so stupidly out of date.  Southwest will return somewhat to its niche market serving a limited number of patrons on a limited number of routes with limited service levels.  Why fly at the level of the lowest-common-denominator when one can well afford a more pleasant journey? Sure, in hard times it makes sense to save every time, but hard times let up and there are many prepared to spend that extra dollar for more comfortable, privileged travel.  There are many rich old men around who are prepared to flaunt their wealth for extra leg room, airport lounges and other "non-necessities" … just not so much when times are thin. Plus, after GW’s version of VietNam draws to a hopefully ego-molesting conclusion, Americans might have to pay the real price of gasoline, not a price based upon the indirect misery and degradation of millions of people far away who aren’t worth worrying about. Man, I cannot wait for those days.  Just think of all the wonderful things for the earth that will change when your country has to pay the price of its greed.  Headlines of that time: Wal*Mart stock lowest level ever: 8c, and carparks still empty Bank of America closes 1500 vehicular bank tellers in latest round of customer service overhauls Ford Field to be renamed following recent chapter 11 auto-industry proceedings 4 lanes closed on NJ turnpike after traffic slump level Area public transportation company profit jumps 650% Bike sales triple during last quarter Gasoline tops $6.00/litre at area gas station Elderly conservatives still unable to fathom metric system 3 year old Cadillac recently sold for $2400; car values plummeting and the best of all Former President Bush convicted for crimes against humanity committed during prolonged Iraqi invasion Great days ahead. Ian

Response:

> We had a heavily regulated system prior to 1978. The chances of it > coming back to anything resembling that period are nonexistent. If you > gave carriers antitrust immunity, they could legally engage in all > kinds of anticompetitive tactics that would end up costing passenges > more money.

But what if you gave the majors antitrust immunity for say 6 months in order for them to restructure their schedules together so that one airline wouldn’t be at a disadvantage for reducing convebnience for the sake of lowering costs ?

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > The majors have the advantage that they SHOULD be able to handle a wider > > variety of routes profitably because they have a more versatile fleet. > But also at an inherently higher cost per passenger mile. > Why should that be ? > Lets say Jetblue has a fleet of 10 A320s and JF-Airlines has a fleet of 30 > flying skidoos and 30 A320s. > Are you saying that because JF-Airlines has more than one fleet type that the > use of its A320s would cost more per pax-mile than JetBlue ? If I have as > many > or more A320s than JetBlue, then there is no reason why I shouldn’t have > equal > or lower seat mile costs operaying the 320, notwidthstanding whatever other > plane type I might have.

Perhaps you’ve asnwered your own question.   By having a mixed fleet, you’re implying that you will use them to feed regional/small jet flights to/from the large mainline jets.  More flights will cost you more money for the same fare. The only way you can avoid your own hypothesis is to make sure the regional jet routing is independent of the mainline jets, that you;re o hubbing. B6 prefers to fly pax non-stop NYC-somewhere, w/o any interconnections.   They can afford this luxury as NYC is a very large origination/terminating market.

Response:

> > The majors have the advantage that they SHOULD be able to handle a wider > variety of routes profitably because they have a more versatile fleet. > But also at an inherently higher cost per passenger mile.

Why should that be ? Lets say Jetblue has a fleet of 10 A320s and JF-Airlines has a fleet of 30 flying skidoos and 30 A320s. Are you saying that because JF-Airlines has more than one fleet type that the use of its A320s would cost more per pax-mile than JetBlue ? If I have as many or more A320s than JetBlue, then there is no reason why I shouldn’t have equal or lower seat mile costs operaying the 320, notwidthstanding whatever other plane type I might have. In that sense, United should be able to operate its A320s with lower seat mile costs than JetBlue even if United has other plane types.  And United should be able to beat an airline whose sole plane type forces it to operate 2 flights where United can use its larger planes to operate a more efficient single flight. And United can be more efficient in markets where it can operate a regional jet to get a high load factor whereas the single-fleet airline may have to operate that route less efficiently because of load factors that aren’t as high. (Case in point, Westjet’s service to Thompson which was operate with 737s because that is all Westjet has, even though the 737 is too big a plane for that market). > It seems that in the past, the airlines put a premium on the non-stop service. > And people will pay for that.  So, what’s the point?

But it costs the airline less to provide the non-stop instead of the connecting flight. By charging a premium for the non-stop, you push people to choose the cheaper ticket option with connecting flights which end up costing the airline much much more and reducing the load factor on the non-stop flight. I once flew CP from montreal to New York to get points. They matched AC’s fares. But it was through Toronto. (YUL-YYZ, then YYZ-LGA). Do you seriously think that CP made a profit with me for that ticket ? I essentially got 4 flights for the price of 2. Airlines must switch from what they think "the market will bear" and "we must match our competitors" to a philosphy of charging for what it costs. > Sure.  I think that’s again exactly what I was trying to say: as long as > they are set up in such a way that they need to discount to death to > sell the last of their seats, they are shooting themselves in the foot. > Which is why they need smaller (but efficient) planes.  Nowadays these > are available.

But the US airlines (except of UA and Northwest) don’t have large planes. What they do is to fly small planes very often, but because they have long layovers at hubs to allow for transfers etc, the airlines need far more planes than necessary. Consider having 50 planes that spend half an hour more than necessary at a gate 5 times a day. That is 125 hours of service lost every day. Assuming those 50 planes operate 18 hours a day, reducing the gate time by half an hour would allow you to keep the same capacity and number of flights with 7 fewer planes. In other words, carry as many people as before, but with 7 fewer lease payments and much lower maintenance costs (granted, the 43 remaining planes, getting used more, would have increased maintenant costs, but you would still have to maintain fewer planes). How many planes does United and American have ? Imagine how much they could save if they managed to switched their schedules to reduce plane turn around time. Boeing woulnd’t be happy, but the airlines would be. > The low costs are inherently limited to only some specific markets.

I am not sure about that.  Look at City Express in Canada. They were able to operate Dash-8s at low cost betwen Montreal and Toronto while Air Canada was charging an arm and a leg. had it not been for AC’s predatory pricing and FF plan, City Express would have survived. Now, if City Express was able to operate low cost flights, how come AC Regional couldn’t ? There is no reason why AC regional (or whatever name they have this week) wouldn’t be able to provide low cost service/fares between Montreal and Toronto. AC Regional should be much better capable of offering low fares than Tango (which is essentially AC mainline operation with a different sticker on the plane). Yet AC regional charges the same fares as AC mainline. Translate this to the USA: Couldn’t delta simply make Comair a low cost carrier ? The problem with the regional airlines is that they are often called upon to take over the thinner routes formerly operated by mainline, and the mainline continues to offer the same fares as were offered before. They see the opportunity to milk customers. But they miss the opportunity to provide much lower fares and beat the competition. Another example is AA’s puddle jumper service between New York and Montreal. AA’s fancy yield management computer decides it can match AC’s exhorbitant fares and make a profit with only 2-3 pax on the plane.  But it fails to see the opportunity of offering low fares and fill the plane while still being profitable.  It would create a market and compete against bus/train as well as serving business travellers.

Response:

>>Start with routes.  They do offer destinations that Southwest would >never consider. > But such routes should still be profitable. If it is a small thin route, give > it to a regional carrier. If it is a heavy route, then use 767s or 777s > instead of multiple 737s to make the route more efficient.

I think that’s exactly what I was saying… > The majors have the advantage that they SHOULD be able to handle a wider > variety of routes profitably because they have a more versatile fleet.

But also at an inherently higher cost per passenger mile. > Which do you think is more efficient: JFK-LAX non-stop, or JFK-ORD-LAX ? > Should the ticket that goes through ORD cost the same as the one that is > non-stop ? > It seems that in the past, the airlines put a premium on the non-stop service.

And people will pay for that.  So, what’s the point? >Presumably also charging higher fares; which is not >inherently a money losing proposition presumably. > It is amoney losing proporsition when you structure the ailrine to survive on > 10% of your customers because you think that they can be milked with extremely > expensive fares, but then you find out that itis that very 10% that is leaving > to Southwest and Jetblue or not flying at all and you are left with passengers > which do not generetae any profit.

Sure.  I think that’s again exactly what I was trying to say: as long as they are set up in such a way that they need to discount to death to sell the last of their seats, they are shooting themselves in the foot. Which is why they need smaller (but efficient) planes.  Nowadays these are available. >They do offer F/J/C service which does increase unit costs.  And >presumably should be paying for itself. > "presumably". What happens when you have a plane that needed F/J seats on only > 2 hops per day between A-B, but the remained of the hops are to cities that do > not generate any F/J revenus ?

That’s typically not how things work.  But again, presumably that can be dealt with with some fare flexibility.  And, as it goes now, by bumping people up. > Look at Canada where "first class" is long gone, and business class is being > downsized out of existence for domestic flights. Air Canada can do this > because it has no competition so it doesn’t need to offer all those free > upgrades to J class anymore.

Canada is such a poor country, you know.  :-).   So poor that no one can afford traveling in First.   Oh well. > I suspect that the US airlines will be forced to reduce their J/F class > product and make upgrades not as common.

Perhaps just the opposite?  They need to extract more cash from their customers, don’t they?   The thing is, it’s not by pricing first outrageously expensive that they are going to fill it up. >They do offer interline ticketing.  They do offer a much more flexible >sales/ticketing set of choices, presumably. > Does interline ticketing really cost the airline much more ? I can see that > going through a CRS does. And CRS systems such as Sabre, Amadeux, Gallileo etc > will have to rethink their business model to compete against bookings made > direct with the airline on its web site.

Of course these things cost.  How significant they are, I don’t know, but add on. > Another possibility is that each alliance (Star, Skyteam and the smaller > Oneworld) will  get each of its members the ability to book directly into each > other without the use of a CRS in the middle. That would allow interlining to > be "free".

That still doesn’t work if you are flying into Oolan-Baatar (sp?). > Then, airlines can start to charge an additional fee to those who still make > interlined tickets (for instance, a BA issued ticket to canada with an > additional leg on Air Canada, such a booking would have to be done through a > CRS since BA wouldn’t have a direct connect to AC). > As far as interlining of luggage. Does it really cost that much ? It is just a > matter of the originating airline properly tagging the luggage, and then > sending an electronic message to the other airline to advise of the luggage > tag information.

Add things up.   Each individually may not cost much, but adding… > Airlines could continue to charge $1000 when Southwest was seen as just a > niche player with limited routes. But as Southwest expanded, and JetBlue > entered, they became real competitors. And I think the killer in this is that > those low cost airlines are seen as more reliable than the majors and this > makes a big step towards stealing business customers from the majors.

The low costs are inherently limited to only some specific markets. This said, if full-service airlines are perceived as less reliable (and less service-oriented), of course they should be in trouble. > And with the majors cutting back on on-board service, the flight themselves > aren’t that different anymore. So you have a huge price difference for a major > airline whose service is not see as reliable and whose on-board service isn’t > seen to be much different from the low cost carriers.

Sure.  That’s not a strategy.

Response:

> Start with routes.  They do offer destinations that Southwest would > never consider.

But such routes should still be profitable. If it is a small thin route, give it to a regional carrier. If it is a heavy route, then use 767s or 777s instead of multiple 737s to make the route more efficient. The majors have the advantage that they SHOULD be able to handle a wider variety of routes profitably because they have a more versatile fleet. The problem is that they create schedules that are often very inefficient not only for fleet utilisation but also on a fare/connections issue. Consider the people who would choose A-C-D-E-F-G-B route over the A-B route because it was same price or cheaper and gave more FF points. Which do you think is more efficient: JFK-LAX non-stop, or JFK-ORD-LAX ? Should the ticket that goes through ORD cost the same as the one that is non-stop ? It seems that in the past, the airlines put a premium on the non-stop service. > Presumably also charging higher fares; which is not > inherently a money losing proposition presumably.

It is amoney losing proporsition when you structure the ailrine to survive on 10% of your customers because you think that they can be milked with extremely expensive fares, but then you find out that itis that very 10% that is leaving to Southwest and Jetblue or not flying at all and you are left with passengers which do not generetae any profit. > They do offer F/J/C service which does increase unit costs.  And > presumably should be paying for itself.

"presumably". What happens when you have a plane that needed F/J seats on only 2 hops per day between A-B, but the remained of the hops are to cities that do not generate any F/J revenus ? Look at Canada where "first class" is long gone, and business class is being downsized out of existence for domestic flights. Air Canada can do this because it has no competition so it doesn’t need to offer all those free upgrades to J class anymore. I suspect that the US airlines will be forced to reduce their J/F class product and make upgrades not as common. > They do offer interline ticketing.  They do offer a much more flexible > sales/ticketing set of choices, presumably.

Does interline ticketing really cost the airline much more ? I can see that going through a CRS does. And CRS systems such as Sabre, Amadeux, Gallileo etc will have to rethink their business model to compete against bookings made direct with the airline on its web site. Another possibility is that each alliance (Star, Skyteam and the smaller Oneworld) will  get each of its members the ability to book directly into each other without the use of a CRS in the middle. That would allow interlining to be "free". Then, airlines can start to charge an additional fee to those who still make interlined tickets (for instance, a BA issued ticket to canada with an additional leg on Air Canada, such a booking would have to be done through a CRS since BA wouldn’t have a direct connect to AC). As far as interlining of luggage. Does it really cost that much ? It is just a matter of the originating airline properly tagging the luggage, and then sending an electronic message to the other airline to advise of the luggage tag information. > misleading.  One key issue in the current Major predicament is that they > operate in a market segment much more susceptible to business downturns > than Southwest.

Airlines could continue to charge $1000 when Southwest was seen as just a niche player with limited routes. But as Southwest expanded, and JetBlue entered, they became real competitors. And I think the killer in this is that those low cost airlines are seen as more reliable than the majors and this makes a big step towards stealing business customers from the majors. And with the majors cutting back on on-board service, the flight themselves aren’t that different anymore. So you have a huge price difference for a major airline whose service is not see as reliable and whose on-board service isn’t seen to be much different from the low cost carriers.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->>United, AMR Corp.’s American Airlines, Northwest Airlines >>and Continental Airlines all have costs at least 40% higher >>than Southwest’s, according to the report. America West >>Airlines comes closest to Southwest, with costs 15% higher. >>Delta Air Lines and Alaska Air Group Inc.’s Alaska Airlines >>fly domestically with unit costs 30% higher than >>Southwest’s. >This could be somewhat misleading however.  We would need to >separate into the costs differences associated with the >different business model and the real operating cost >differences. > The problem with laying the cost per pax differences at the feet > of "different business models" sort of begs the question as to > whether the  other airlines’ "business models" themselves > provide  part if not parcel of the problem.

Fair enough.  Although that is not synonymous with suggesting they all should adopt the Southwest model. > In attempting to be all things for everybody, the majors have > ended up over extending themselves is search of segments of a > dynamic pie, one that shrinks or swells due to circumstances, > economic and psychological, and in which the "filling", > (demographics, customer profiles and attitudes) is extremely > diverse in composition and large portions of which have changed > faster than have the airlines capacity to address change.

Poor judgement and wishful thinking is not just a prerogative of the airlines though.  Just look at telecoms and the whole internet business pipedream. And one would think sooner or later fundamentals end up winning the day.   The fare system based upon (1) grabbing as much as they can where they can while (2) filling any left seat at any cost resulted from  years of operating planes larger than was needed from an economic perspective. These days are now by and large gone and one would think fares will end up more in line with costs eventually. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I suspect that the next decade will bring a revolution (and not > necessarily a welcome one for many poster/reader/travelers here) > in domestic and foreign service by US airlines.  A number of > smaller markets are certain to lose chunks of service and as > with amenities such as meals, a number of the sort of > traditional conveniences will disappear.  "Point to point" > service (other than those routes capable of filling one or more > regular flights) will increasingly be replaced by hub and spoke > operations (with dimished service down spokes unable to fill > a/c) or the WN business model which seems based on maximum > utilization of available assets, a/c, crews, ground staff, > gates, counters and coffee pots, the "optimization" approach, > Spartan, but easier to alter and adjust to circumstances.  WN’s > biggest advantage after 9/11 – its customers – less likely to be > discretionary or even flexible travelers – "needed to go" with > higher priority than did the average/median/mean customer of > other lines.  For Southwest to institute or drop a direct flight > from San Diego to Providence would cost (in money and customer > good will) far less than it would for Delta to start or drop a > flight from Atlanta to Tokyo, yet WN’s potential real profits > from the such routes, real or potential, may be as great as > Delta’s and WN’s potential losses much lower.

But all of that does not mean that one cannot run a profitable business based upon better service, such as more direct routes etc.  Of course, trying to have both ways is a different story. > These days, the flexibility of the US majors is limited to > gamesmanship in the area of fares, and the phenom of the > "weekend web specials" in which they attempt to induce > non or discretionary travelers to travel.  The doewnside of > flexible fares has emerged, as countless businesses, traditional > customers for premium seats or late purchase tickets, have > become "players" for cheap tickets.  "Real" first class > travelers have diminished to a laughable few on US domestic > routes, and the front of the bus is mostly a haven for > "upgradees".

Again, real issue is you can’t have it both ways.  You can’t claim you are full service if your service is no better than WN.  But surely there remains a sizeable market.  Provided that you put "service" back into "full service airlines." For instance, if no one pay for first anymore, it’s not really because there is no market.  It’s more like because the airlines are prisoners of their fare system.  No one pays full economy; first has to be more expensive than full Y.  Result: no one pays for F anymore. OTOH, if F would cost 30-40% more than coach (as it did before deregulation) surely enough people to fill a reasonable F cabin would pay for it?  I regularly pay 30% more than the cheapest available fare to get upgradeable tickets.  (That’s in Canada, but with AC, which is not terribly different than the majors.) > The same sort of changes are inevitable abroad (with the current > Canadian experience as a foretaste of things to come).   > Governments (with exception of petty despoteries maintaining a > crewed, fueled jet at the airport to get out of town quickly) > are less and less likely to want to or to be fiscally able to > subsidize national flag carriers (or regional "brandnames" > carrying semi-flag status) or to be concerned about the > importance thereof to the national image.

Agreed on national image, although as long as they are monopolistic, some of these dinosaurs seem to be profitable: LH and AF are apparently.   I wouldn’t be surprised if our beloved Mapleflot does more or less OK this year too. Although the jury is still very much out on the AC brands follies.  My guess is that the main reason they are doing fine do not stem from these but from the benefits of near-monopoly, which has allowed them to raise fares to be more in line with costs, together with very tight cost control.  If found that this summer, flying overseas from Canada was nowhere near as cheap as it used to be. Ultimately, this is the only true remedy for the airlines.  Fares got to pay for the costs.

Response:

> costs’ BOTH contribute to that. If they are to survive and be > profitable again, they need to change both their business model and > their operating costs.

Perhaps what the US majors need is some sort of antitrust immunity so that all carriers can stop competing on frequencies to allow them to restructure their operations. The focus should be moved from making "convenient and frequent connections/service" to "making the best possible use of aircraft/schedule". Yes, the airline need to rethink their yield management system that results in a $1000 fare for last minute purchase and a $98 fare for seat sale. But that could be done tomororow if the airlines wanted to. The recent changes to prevent stand-by, ticket-value reuse etc seems to indicate that the majors still expect to be milking the business travellers with higher fares by making the lower fares less attractive for business travel. And that is wrong. The airlines should be doing as Horizon just announced: make the last minute fares more affordable and just as flexible.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->>United, AMR Corp.’s American Airlines, Northwest Airlines and Continental >>Airlines all have costs at least 40% higher than Southwest’s, according to the >>report. America West Airlines comes closest to Southwest, with costs 15% >>higher. Delta Air Lines and Alaska Air Group Inc.’s Alaska Airlines fly >>domestically with unit costs 30% higher than Southwest’s. >This could be somewhat misleading however.  We would need to separate >into the costs differences associated with the different business model >and the real operating cost differences. > Sorry if this is a stupid question, but why? The whole point is that > the majors spend more to fly one seat one mile than Southwest does, > and that the differing business model and higher ‘real operating > costs’ BOTH contribute to that. If they are to survive and be > profitable again, they need to change both their business model and > their operating costs.

Why?   They do offer a different type of service, or at least they claim to. Start with routes.  They do offer destinations that Southwest would never consider.   Presumably also charging higher fares; which is not inherently a money losing proposition presumably. They do offer F/J/C service which does increase unit costs.  And presumably should be paying for itself. They do offer interline ticketing.  They do offer a much more flexible sales/ticketing set of choices, presumably. Bottom line: comparing costs only without looking at income is at best misleading.  One key issue in the current Major predicament is that they operate in a market segment much more susceptible to business downturns than Southwest.

Response:

> > United, AMR Corp.’s American Airlines, Northwest Airlines and Continental > Airlines all have costs at least 40% higher than Southwest’s, according to the > report. America West Airlines comes closest to Southwest, with costs 15% > higher. Delta Air Lines and Alaska Air Group Inc.’s Alaska Airlines fly > domestically with unit costs 30% higher than Southwest’s. > This could be somewhat misleading however.  We would need to separate > into the costs differences associated with the different business model > and the real operating cost differences.

Sorry if this is a stupid question, but why? The whole point is that the majors spend more to fly one seat one mile than Southwest does, and that the differing business model and higher ‘real operating costs’ BOTH contribute to that. If they are to survive and be profitable again, they need to change both their business model and their operating costs.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> United, AMR Corp.’s American Airlines, Northwest Airlines > and Continental Airlines all have costs at least 40% higher > than Southwest’s, according to the report. America West > Airlines comes closest to Southwest, with costs 15% higher. > Delta Air Lines and Alaska Air Group Inc.’s Alaska Airlines > fly domestically with unit costs 30% higher than > Southwest’s. > This could be somewhat misleading however.  We would need to > separate into the costs differences associated with the > different business model and the real operating cost > differences.

The problem with laying the cost per pax differences at the feet of "different business models" sort of begs the question as to whether the  other airlines’ "business models" themselves provide  part if not parcel of the problem. I already see AA beginning to alter (but not rapidly or iconoclasticly enough I suspect) its business model, but it appears likely that USAir, even in bankruptcy, may be in an irrecoverable tail spin, and that the traditionalist "icon- centered" perspective of UA is equally frightening. In attempting to be all things for everybody, the majors have ended up over extending themselves is search of segments of a dynamic pie, one that shrinks or swells due to circumstances, economic and psychological, and in which the "filling", (demographics, customer profiles and attitudes) is extremely diverse in composition and large portions of which have changed faster than have the airlines capacity to address change. I suspect that the next decade will bring a revolution (and not necessarily a welcome one for many poster/reader/travelers here) in domestic and foreign service by US airlines.  A number of smaller markets are certain to lose chunks of service and as with amenities such as meals, a number of the sort of traditional conveniences will disappear.  "Point to point" service (other than those routes capable of filling one or more regular flights) will increasingly be replaced by hub and spoke operations (with dimished service down spokes unable to fill a/c) or the WN business model which seems based on maximum utilization of available assets, a/c, crews, ground staff, gates, counters and coffee pots, the "optimization" approach, Spartan, but easier to alter and adjust to circumstances.  WN’s biggest advantage after 9/11 – its customers – less likely to be discretionary or even flexible travelers – "needed to go" with higher priority than did the average/median/mean customer of other lines.  For Southwest to institute or drop a direct flight from San Diego to Providence would cost (in money and customer good will) far less than it would for Delta to start or drop a flight from Atlanta to Tokyo, yet WN’s potential real profits from the such routes, real or potential, may be as great as Delta’s and WN’s potential losses much lower. These days, the flexibility of the US majors is limited to gamesmanship in the area of fares, and the phenom of the "weekend web specials" in which they attempt to induce non or discretionary travelers to travel.  The doewnside of flexible fares has emerged, as countless businesses, traditional customers for premium seats or late purchase tickets, have become "players" for cheap tickets.  "Real" first class travelers have diminished to a laughable few on US domestic routes, and the front of the bus is mostly a haven for "upgradees". The same sort of changes are inevitable abroad (with the current Canadian experience as a foretaste of things to come).   Governments (with exception of petty despoteries maintaining a crewed, fueled jet at the airport to get out of town quickly) are less and less likely to want to or to be fiscally able to subsidize national flag carriers (or regional "brandnames" carrying semi-flag status) or to be concerned about the importance thereof to the national image. Along with the water in the crapper rotating in reverse than in Canada and the US, Ozmandians have always considered themselves as separate from and above the fray and long secure from the terrors of the night which beset folks who live in the real world.  Now, they will be forced to swallow e-tickets and surcharges for paper ones, and that Oz’s location, population and economy may actually serve to further isolate the country as international air service stagnates (or as likely, actually declines) and Ozmandian cities become simply the tips of spokes emanating from Asian or better located Pacific hubs. After all, the facility with which Ozians rise to the bait and thrash out at the rest of the world (especially the US), seems an inheritance of a combination of environmental and genetic paranoia, unrelieved by substantial efforts by US military forces during WWII to introduce fresh root stock providing a healthier perspective…. TMO

Response:

> United, AMR Corp.’s American Airlines, Northwest Airlines and Continental > Airlines all have costs at least 40% higher than Southwest’s, according to the > report. America West Airlines comes closest to Southwest, with costs 15% > higher. Delta Air Lines and Alaska Air Group Inc.’s Alaska Airlines fly > domestically with unit costs 30% higher than Southwest’s.

This could be somewhat misleading however.  We would need to separate into the costs differences associated with the different business model and the real operating cost differences.

Response:

Dow Jones Business News Southwest Sets Standard on Costs for Airlines Wednesday October 9, 1:49 am ET Major U.S. airlines would have to collectively slash $18.6 billion in costs, or 29% of their total expenses, to operate at the same level as Southwest Airlines , the only major carrier that has been profitable the past 18 months, Wednesday’s Wall Street Journal reported, citing a study to be published today.  Unisys Corp.’s R2A Transportation Management Consultants tallied up  the magnitude of the problem facing major airlines. By looking at  Southwest’s per- mile costs, the study concluded that the eight  other big carriers would have to  slash billions from their cost  structures if they wanted to  compete on an equal basis with Southwest and other low-fare  carriers.  U.S. airlines are expected to post losses of as much as $8 billion this year, possibly eclipsing last year’s record $7.7 billion. Even before the  Sept. 11 terrorist attacks and the  ensuing travel hassles and security  costs, U.S. airlines were suffering from a steep drop in demand for high-fare busines-travel tickets. The high-cost airlines face enormous  pressure from low-fare carriers, which total more than 20% of U.S. domestic air capacity, as well as from powerful Internet tools that allow flyers to hunt bargains. US Airways Group Inc. , which sought bankruptcy-court protection in August, is at the biggest disadvantage, the study said; its cost to fly one seat one mile is 69% higher than Southwest’s. The data, which cover the year ended June 30, 2001, show UAL Corp.’s United Airlines, which is teetering on the edge of a bankruptcy filing, to be at the second-biggest disadvantage. United, AMR Corp.’s American Airlines, Northwest Airlines and Continental Airlines all have costs at least 40% higher than Southwest’s, according to the report. America West Airlines comes closest to Southwest, with costs 15% higher. Delta Air Lines and Alaska Air Group Inc.’s Alaska Airlines fly domestically with unit costs 30% higher than Southwest’s. Southwest, now the nation’s sixth-largest airline, has been profitable for 29 consecutive years, relying on low costs, reasonable fares and high efficiency. Wall Street Journal Staff Reporter Scott McCartney contributed to this report.

Response:

Congratulations to Ray He found a way to post his URL and phone number 4 times in less than 30 minutes responding to Ernie’s post concerning the FTC allowing Carnival to bid for RCL And poor old George Leppla only got one in. It must be awful having no clients and just sitting there, day after day, hour after hour, reading each and every message on this newsgroup and posting hundreds of times a week just praying the phone will ring! Ah well when he goes under, there’s always fast food as a second career

Response:

You have got some people issues that you need to deal with.  I would rather do what Ray does instead of bashing real people over a newsgroup. I realize that you are probably getting a huge kick out of this whole thing. Unless you are 12, which is what you sound like, I suggest you put some pants on, step away from the computer, and join the real world. I am curious though, why are you so above the rest of us?

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Congratulations to Ray > He found a way to post his URL and phone number 4 times in less than 30 > minutes responding to Ernie’s post concerning the FTC allowing Carnival to > bid for RCL > And poor old George Leppla only got one in. > It must be awful having no clients and just sitting there, day after day, > hour after hour, reading each and every message on this newsgroup and > posting hundreds of times a week just praying the phone will ring! > Ah well when he goes under, there’s always fast food as a second career

Response:

Sean, do what the rest of us have learned to do and just ignore him. I put him in my kill file long ago and I only see his posts when someone else quotes him. For some reason he has a huge dislike for TA’s and Carnival. I guess he has nothing better to do with his time. Gordon I’m going on the MGC-2003 http://www.mgc2003.com/

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> You have got some people issues that you need to deal with.  I would rather > do what Ray does instead of bashing real people over a newsgroup. > I realize that you are probably getting a huge kick out of this whole thing. > Unless you are 12, which is what you sound like, I suggest you put some > pants on, step away from the computer, and join the real world. > I am curious though, why are you so above the rest of us? > Congratulations to Ray > He found a way to post his URL and phone number 4 times in less than 30 > minutes responding to Ernie’s post concerning the FTC allowing Carnival to > bid for RCL > And poor old George Leppla only got one in. > It must be awful having no clients and just sitting there, day after day, > hour after hour, reading each and every message on this newsgroup and > posting hundreds of times a week just praying the phone will ring! > Ah well when he goes under, there’s always fast food as a second career

Response:

Maybe Ray and George need to join a nice local travel agency with a nice office in a mall, no complaints against them that has been in business for many years.  Maybe some place like Duke’s Travel Adventures in California. No wait, they stole all their clients money and went out of business, while Ray and George are still making people happy with nice vacations.  Funny how that works.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Congratulations to Ray > He found a way to post his URL and phone number 4 times in less than 30 > minutes responding to Ernie’s post concerning the FTC allowing Carnival to > bid for RCL > And poor old George Leppla only got one in. > It must be awful having no clients and just sitting there, day after day, > hour after hour, reading each and every message on this newsgroup and > posting hundreds of times a week just praying the phone will ring! > Ah well when he goes under, there’s always fast food as a second career

Response:

> No wait, they stole all their clients money and went out of business, while > Ray and George are still making people happy with nice vacations.  Funny how > that works.

I kind of have to laugh at Paul.  For the first 5 years I was open, I was in a storefront location. As the business changed, the focus of my business changed and 4 years ago I moved into a home office. By doing this I am able to work more hours and provide more efficient service to my customers than when I was in the storefront. Consequently, my business is more profitable. According to Paul,  I was a good bet back in the old days but now I am not. BTW – Thanks Mike for mentioning my name. It gives me another opportunity to post! <vbg> — George in PA Countryside Travel www.countryside-travel.com Hell Freezes Over www.cruisemaster.com/voyager.htm Norway 2 www.cruisemaster.com/norway

Response:

>I kind of have to laugh at Paul.

Hi George, Yeah, he is always good for a laugh.  It is just one of his many inaccuracies that old Slinky writes about us.  I always get a kick out of him saying we live in apartments.  Of course that is not true but he has never let the truth get in the way of his "story". <;+) Best regards, Ray LIGHTHOUSE TRAVEL 800-719-9917 or 805-566-3905 http://www.lighthousetravel.com

Response:

> I always get a kick out >of him saying we live in apartments.  Of course that is not true

OH!!!  So then you DO live in trailers!

Response:

Paul, you are hereby banished to my killfile…..go on get in there…….urumph…..there. Now be a good little troll and stay off this NG! Ray and George, don’t let the bastards get you down! MrTractor

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Congratulations to Ray > He found a way to post his URL and phone number 4 times in less than 30 > minutes responding to Ernie’s post concerning the FTC allowing Carnival to > bid for RCL > And poor old George Leppla only got one in. > It must be awful having no clients and just sitting there, day after day, > hour after hour, reading each and every message on this newsgroup and > posting hundreds of times a week just praying the phone will ring! > Ah well when he goes under, there’s always fast food as a second career

Response:

> I always get a kick out >of him saying we live in apartments.  Of course that is not true > OH!!!  So then you DO live in trailers!

That conjures up a wonderful image of Ray and George sitting side by side at the same dinette table in their seedy trailers, each with only four teeth remaining, working on their websites, and waiting for Jerry Springer to call.  <VBG>

Response:

I was thinking… Trump Tower. –Tom – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I always get a kick out >of him saying we live in apartments.  Of course that is not true > OH!!!  So then you DO live in trailers!

Response:

Could be he’d have better luck with the trailers, since when he came to speak in Palm Beach a few days ago, hardly anyone showed up.  That’s Jerry Springer I’m talking about.  As for the four teeth, I’ve seen George eating shrimp.  You need a lot more than 4 teeth to gobble them up the way he does.  <VBG>  As for Ray, I’ve never met nor  seen a pix of him; will hold further opinion <G> Arlene – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > I always get a kick out > >of him saying we live in apartments.  Of course that is not true > OH!!!  So then you DO live in trailers! > That conjures up a wonderful image of Ray and George sitting side by side at > the same dinette table in their seedy trailers, each with only four teeth > remaining, working on their websites, and waiting for Jerry Springer to > call.  <VBG>

Response:

Let me translate this for everyone. Like many small mom-and-pop agencies, George couldn’t make it as a real Travel Agent.  When consumers wised up and realized that can save money and get better service by booking direct booking over the Internet, his sales dropped.  Then airlines, hotels and rental cars offered even greater discounts to encouraged electronic booking and reduced or eliminated  Travel Agent commissions.  George was hit by a double whammy. He had to close up shop, get rid of the staff and work out of his house to stay afloat. Since airlines, hotels, rental cars and resorts encourage direct electronic booking, cruises are now all he has left.  Like the other Internet Cruise Travel Agents working out of their houses or apartments, he’s stuck in a descending spiral.  He has few repeat clients and cruise tariffs are continually dropping thus further eroding his sales.  He can’t afford to do any real advertising so his website and constantly posting his URL on rec.travel.cruises is all he has left. It won’t last much longer.  When Cruise Lines do what the airlines and hotels did and encourage direct electronic booking we’ll finally be rid of these parasites.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> No wait, they stole all their clients money and went out of business, > while > Ray and George are still making people happy with nice vacations.  Funny > how > that works. > I kind of have to laugh at Paul.  For the first 5 years I was open, I was in > a storefront location. As the business changed, the focus of my business > changed and 4 years ago I moved into a home office. By doing this I am able > to work more hours and provide more efficient service to my customers than > when I was in the storefront. Consequently, my business is more profitable. > According to Paul,  I was a good bet back in the old days but now I am not. > BTW – Thanks Mike for mentioning my name. It gives me another opportunity to > post! <vbg> > — > George in PA > Countryside Travel www.countryside-travel.com > Hell Freezes Over www.cruisemaster.com/voyager.htm > Norway 2 www.cruisemaster.com/norway

Response:

> Let me translate this for everyone. > Like many small mom-and-pop agencies, George couldn’t make it as a real > Travel Agent.  When consumers wised up and realized that can save money and > get better service by booking direct booking over the Internet, his sales > dropped.

Paul, I sure do wish you had an "in" at the IRS.  They seem to be taking a different view of my business than you do.  I am a bit puzzled though.  In one post you tell people to only deal with storefront agencies and now you are saying that storefront agencies are going broke and are closing their doors.  You might want to get the dosage changed on some of your meds.  We wouldn’t want you going schizo on us again. > It won’t last much longer.  When Cruise Lines do what the airlines and > hotels did and encourage direct electronic booking we’ll finally be rid of > these parasites.

Speaking of parasites, how are things on the Unemployment line these days. Ooops… I’m sorry, I know you like to refer to yourself as a "consultant". Now that you are getting close to retirement age I see that a lot of your fellow "consultants" are getting back into the work force by finding consulting positions behind the grill at their local McDonald’s. OK so it isn’t a high profile job but you get free uniforms which you can wear with the bowling shoes you "borrowed" from the Bowl-A-Rama and when the 17 year old shift manager isn’t watching, you can "borrow" as many Big Mac’s as you can stuff in your pants pockets.  I know, it isn’t the fine dining that you are used to like those Friskies Prime Cuts-o-Fish Innards, but times are tough and I’m sure you’ll do fine. Keep taking your meds and try real hard to remember to attend those Anger Management classes. You are making such good progress and we are all proud of you. Your friend, George in PA Countryside Travel www.countryside-travel.com Hell Freezes Over www.cruisemaster.com/voyager.htm Norway 2 www.cruisemaster.com/norway

Response:

Sean,      Paul is a resident troll and complete idiot that has never posted anything useful in this newsgroup. For that reason most of us have killfiled him and never see his asinine posts unless they are quoted. It is really much better never to see anything he posts. Jim

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> You have got some people issues that you need to deal with.  I would rather > do what Ray does instead of bashing real people over a newsgroup. > I realize that you are probably getting a huge kick out of this whole thing. > Unless you are 12, which is what you sound like, I suggest you put some > pants on, step away from the computer, and join the real world. > I am curious though, why are you so above the rest of us? > Congratulations to Ray > He found a way to post his URL and phone number 4 times in less than 30 > minutes responding to Ernie’s post concerning the FTC allowing Carnival to > bid for RCL > And poor old George Leppla only got one in. > It must be awful having no clients and just sitting there, day after day, > hour after hour, reading each and every message on this newsgroup and > posting hundreds of times a week just praying the phone will ring! > Ah well when he goes under, there’s always fast food as a second career

Response:

This is making perfect sense to me.  The same person who said this: > customers realized that can save money and get better service by booking

direct booking over the Internet, also said this >  Avoid the "Internet Agents".

and this: > book direct with the cruise line?  Not only will you save money by cutting

out the middle man So, you shouldn’t deal with internet agents, yet customers have realized you can save money and get better service by booking direct booking (whatever that is) over the internet? Thanks for the translation, it’s much clearer now.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Let me translate this for everyone. > Like many small mom-and-pop agencies, George couldn’t make it as a real > Travel Agent.  When consumers wised up and realized that can save money > and > get better service by booking direct booking over the Internet, his sales > dropped. > Paul, I sure do wish you had an "in" at the IRS.  They seem to be taking a > different view of my business than you do.  I am a bit puzzled though.  In > one post you tell people to only deal with storefront agencies and now you > are saying that storefront agencies are going broke and are closing their > doors.  You might want to get the dosage changed on some of your meds.  We > wouldn’t want you going schizo on us again. > It won’t last much longer.  When Cruise Lines do what the airlines and > hotels did and encourage direct electronic booking we’ll finally be rid of > these parasites. > Speaking of parasites, how are things on the Unemployment line these days. > Ooops… I’m sorry, I know you like to refer to yourself as a "consultant". > Now that you are getting close to retirement age I see that a lot of your > fellow "consultants" are getting back into the work force by finding > consulting positions behind the grill at their local McDonald’s. OK so it > isn’t a high profile job but you get free uniforms which you can wear with > the bowling shoes you "borrowed" from the Bowl-A-Rama and when the 17 year > old shift manager isn’t watching, you can "borrow" as many Big Mac’s as you > can stuff in your pants pockets.  I know, it isn’t the fine dining that you > are used to like those Friskies Prime Cuts-o-Fish Innards, but times are > tough and I’m sure you’ll do fine. > Keep taking your meds and try real hard to remember to attend those Anger > Management classes. You are making such good progress and we are all proud > of you. > Your friend, > George in PA > Countryside Travel www.countryside-travel.com > Hell Freezes Over www.cruisemaster.com/voyager.htm > Norway 2 www.cruisemaster.com/norway

Response:

Back in the 1950’s, my Mother had a question for the likes of you, Paul. "If you’re so damn smart, why aren’t you rich?"  Nuff said. MisterEd <—  Another home-based cruiser.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Let me translate this for everyone. > Like many small mom-and-pop agencies, George couldn’t make it as a real > Travel Agent.  When consumers wised up and realized that can save money and > get better service by booking direct booking over the Internet, his sales > dropped.  Then airlines, hotels and rental cars offered even greater > discounts to encouraged electronic booking and reduced or eliminated Travel > Agent commissions.  George was hit by a double whammy. > He had to close up shop, get rid of the staff and work out of his house to > stay afloat. > Since airlines, hotels, rental cars and resorts encourage direct electronic > booking, cruises are now all he has left.  Like the other Internet Cruise > Travel Agents working out of their houses or apartments, he’s stuck in a > descending spiral.  He has few repeat clients and cruise tariffs are > continually dropping thus further eroding his sales.  He can’t afford to do > any real advertising so his website and constantly posting his URL on > rec.travel.cruises is all he has left. > It won’t last much longer.  When Cruise Lines do what the airlines and > hotels did and encourage direct electronic booking we’ll finally be rid of > these parasites. > > No wait, they stole all their clients money and went out of business, > while > > Ray and George are still making people happy with nice vacations. Funny > how > > that works. > I kind of have to laugh at Paul.  For the first 5 years I was open, I was > in > a storefront location. As the business changed, the focus of my business > changed and 4 years ago I moved into a home office. By doing this I am > able > to work more hours and provide more efficient service to my customers than > when I was in the storefront. Consequently, my business is more > profitable. > According to Paul,  I was a good bet back in the old days but now I am > not. > BTW – Thanks Mike for mentioning my name. It gives me another opportunity > to > post! <vbg> > — > George in PA > Countryside Travel www.countryside-travel.com > Hell Freezes Over www.cruisemaster.com/voyager.htm > Norway 2 www.cruisemaster.com/norway

Response:

Hi Mike, There ya go again Mike, 2 plus 2 equals 5 right. Direct booking over the internet means exactly that — booking electronically directly with the actual service provider (airline, hotel, cruise line, rental agency, resort, etc.), not through an "Internet Agent". An "Internet Agent" as you call them, is another word for a middleman.  In this case one who merely adds cost while providing virtually no value added. The Air, Hotel, and Rental Car segments of the travel industry recognized this.  They now provide the consumer with incentives for direct electronic booking thus passing on some of their cost savings to him.  They have also reduced or eliminated most TA commissions and in some cases add a surcharge for those that demand paper tickets. Look Mike, rather than continually screw up what people are staying, I think it would be better if you stuck to your specific area of expertise — pictures of snowmen. Your friend Paul

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> This is making perfect sense to me.  The same person who said this: > customers realized that can save money and get better service by booking > direct booking over the Internet, > also said this >  Avoid the "Internet Agents". > and this: > book direct with the cruise line?  Not only will you save money by cutting > out the middle man > So, you shouldn’t deal with internet agents, yet customers have realized you > can save money and get better service by booking direct booking (whatever > that is) over the internet? > Thanks for the translation, it’s much clearer now. > > Let me translate this for everyone. > > Like many small mom-and-pop agencies, George couldn’t make it as a real > > Travel Agent.  When consumers wised up and realized that can save money > and > > get better service by booking direct booking over the Internet, his > sales > > dropped. > Paul, I sure do wish you had an "in" at the IRS.  They seem to be taking a > different view of my business than you do.  I am a bit puzzled though. In > one post you tell people to only deal with storefront agencies and now you > are saying that storefront agencies are going broke and are closing their > doors.  You might want to get the dosage changed on some of your meds. We > wouldn’t want you going schizo on us again. > > It won’t last much longer.  When Cruise Lines do what the airlines and > > hotels did and encourage direct electronic booking we’ll finally be rid > of > > these parasites. > Speaking of parasites, how are things on the Unemployment line these days. > Ooops… I’m sorry, I know you like to refer to yourself as a > "consultant". > Now that you are getting close to retirement age I see that a lot of your > fellow "consultants" are getting back into the work force by finding > consulting positions behind the grill at their local McDonald’s. OK so it > isn’t a high profile job but you get free uniforms which you can wear with > the bowling shoes you "borrowed" from the Bowl-A-Rama and when the 17 year > old shift manager isn’t watching, you can "borrow" as many Big Mac’s as > you > can stuff in your pants pockets.  I know, it isn’t the fine dining that > you > are used to like those Friskies Prime Cuts-o-Fish Innards, but times are > tough and I’m sure you’ll do fine. > Keep taking your meds and try real hard to remember to attend those Anger > Management classes. You are making such good progress and we are all proud > of you. > Your friend, > George in PA > Countryside Travel www.countryside-travel.com > Hell Freezes Over www.cruisemaster.com/voyager.htm > Norway 2 www.cruisemaster.com/norway

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >Hi Mike, >There ya go again Mike, 2 plus 2 equals 5 right. >Direct booking over the internet means exactly that — booking >electronically directly with the actual service provider (airline, hotel, >cruise line, rental agency, resort, etc.), not through an "Internet Agent". >An "Internet Agent" as you call them, is another word for a middleman.  In >this case one who merely adds cost while providing virtually no value added. >The Air, Hotel, and Rental Car segments of the travel industry recognized >this.  They now provide the consumer with incentives for direct electronic >booking thus passing on some of their cost savings to him.  They have also >reduced or eliminated most TA commissions and in some cases add a surcharge >for those that demand paper tickets. >Look Mike, rather than continually screw up what people are staying, I think >it would be better if you stuck to your specific area of expertise — >pictures of snowmen. >Your friend >Paul

I believe online booking will escalate when the cruise lines actually begin giving discounts to people booking directly on their sites. Thumper – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> This is making perfect sense to me.  The same person who said this: > > customers realized that can save money and get better service by booking > direct booking over the Internet, > also said this > >  Avoid the "Internet Agents". > and this: > > book direct with the cruise line?  Not only will you save money by >cutting > out the middle man > So, you shouldn’t deal with internet agents, yet customers have realized >you > can save money and get better service by booking direct booking (whatever > that is) over the internet? > Thanks for the translation, it’s much clearer now. > > > Let me translate this for everyone. > > > Like many small mom-and-pop agencies, George couldn’t make it as a >real > > > Travel Agent.  When consumers wised up and realized that can save >money > > and > > > get better service by booking direct booking over the Internet, his > sales > > > dropped. > > Paul, I sure do wish you had an "in" at the IRS.  They seem to be taking >a > > different view of my business than you do.  I am a bit puzzled though. >In > > one post you tell people to only deal with storefront agencies and now >you > > are saying that storefront agencies are going broke and are closing >their > > doors.  You might want to get the dosage changed on some of your meds. >We > > wouldn’t want you going schizo on us again. > > > It won’t last much longer.  When Cruise Lines do what the airlines and > > > hotels did and encourage direct electronic booking we’ll finally be >rid > of > > > these parasites. > > Speaking of parasites, how are things on the Unemployment line these >days. > > Ooops… I’m sorry, I know you like to refer to yourself as a > "consultant". > > Now that you are getting close to retirement age I see that a lot of >your > > fellow "consultants" are getting back into the work force by finding > > consulting positions behind the grill at their local McDonald’s. OK so >it > > isn’t a high profile job but you get free uniforms which you can wear >with > > the bowling shoes you "borrowed" from the Bowl-A-Rama and when the 17 >year > > old shift manager isn’t watching, you can "borrow" as many Big Mac’s as > you > > can stuff in your pants pockets.  I know, it isn’t the fine dining that > you > > are used to like those Friskies Prime Cuts-o-Fish Innards, but times are > > tough and I’m sure you’ll do fine. > > Keep taking your meds and try real hard to remember to attend those >Anger > > Management classes. You are making such good progress and we are all >proud > > of you. > > Your friend, > > George in PA > > Countryside Travel www.countryside-travel.com > > Hell Freezes Over www.cruisemaster.com/voyager.htm > > Norway 2 www.cruisemaster.com/norway

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Oh, I understand it now, so direct booking is going directly with the cruise line is a sure fire way to save money, even though just minutes ago you posted that Sky Auction was able to sell a cruise for less then going direct with Carnival.  So even though you say time and time again that the only way to save money is to go direct with the actual service provider, not through an internet agent (which by the way is your term, not mine, now you are saying stupid things then trying to blame others when you are quoted saying them), even though you just posted that going through an internet agent you can get a cruise for fifty cents per day. It’s so much clearer to me know, going direct, in this case booking over the internet directly with Carnival is the only way to save money, UNLESS somebody else happens to be selling it for fifty cents per day, and unless you happen to be the one to mention it.  Anybody else who saves money is lying. Go ahead, change your story once again.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Hi Mike, > There ya go again Mike, 2 plus 2 equals 5 right. > Direct booking over the internet means exactly that — booking > electronically directly with the actual service provider (airline, hotel, > cruise line, rental agency, resort, etc.), not through an "Internet Agent". > An "Internet Agent" as you call them, is another word for a middleman.  In > this case one who merely adds cost while providing virtually no value added. > The Air, Hotel, and Rental Car segments of the travel industry recognized > this.  They now provide the consumer with incentives for direct electronic > booking thus passing on some of their cost savings to him.  They have also > reduced or eliminated most TA commissions and in some cases add a surcharge > for those that demand paper tickets. > Look Mike, rather than continually screw up what people are staying, I think > it would be better if you stuck to your specific area of expertise — > pictures of snowmen. > Your friend > Paul > This is making perfect sense to me.  The same person who said this: > > customers realized that can save money and get better service by booking > direct booking over the Internet, > also said this > >  Avoid the "Internet Agents". > and this: > > book direct with the cruise line?  Not only will you save money by > cutting > out the middle man > So, you shouldn’t deal with internet agents, yet customers have realized > you > can save money and get better service by booking direct booking (whatever > that is) over the internet? > Thanks for the translation, it’s much clearer now. > > > Let me translate this for everyone. > > > Like many small mom-and-pop agencies, George couldn’t make it as a > real > > > Travel Agent.  When consumers wised up and realized that can save > money > > and > > > get better service by booking direct booking over the Internet, his > sales > > > dropped. > > Paul, I sure do wish you had an "in" at the IRS.  They seem to be taking > a > > different view of my business than you do.  I am a bit puzzled though. > In > > one post you tell people to only deal with storefront agencies and now > you > > are saying that storefront agencies are going broke and are closing > their > > doors.  You might want to get the dosage changed on some of your meds. > We > > wouldn’t want you going schizo on us again. > > > It won’t last much longer.  When Cruise Lines do what the airlines and > > > hotels did and encourage direct electronic booking we’ll finally be > rid > of > > > these parasites. > > Speaking of parasites, how are things on the Unemployment line these > days. > > Ooops… I’m sorry, I know you like to refer to yourself as a > "consultant". > > Now that you are getting close to retirement age I see that a lot of > your > > fellow "consultants" are getting back into the work force by finding > > consulting positions behind the grill at their local McDonald’s. OK so > it > > isn’t a high profile job but you get free uniforms which you can wear > with > > the bowling shoes you "borrowed" from the Bowl-A-Rama and when the 17 > year > > old shift manager isn’t watching, you can "borrow" as many Big Mac’s as > you > > can stuff in your pants pockets.  I know, it isn’t the fine dining that > you > > are used to like those Friskies Prime Cuts-o-Fish Innards, but times are > > tough and I’m sure you’ll do fine. > > Keep taking your meds and try real hard to remember to attend those > Anger > > Management classes. You are making such good progress and we are all > proud > > of you. > > Your friend, > > George in PA > > Countryside Travel www.countryside-travel.com > > Hell Freezes Over www.cruisemaster.com/voyager.htm > > Norway 2 www.cruisemaster.com/norway

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>There ya go again Mike, 2 plus 2 equals 5 right.

For sufficiently large values of 2 … Be seeing you In the Village Number 6

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I met George last month on the Inspiration and with his huge smile be assured he has plenty of teeth, to go along with his neat personality. Also what is wrong with living in a trailer? I do and it’s paid for, and so is my 2002 Mercedes.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Let me translate this for everyone. > Like many small mom-and-pop agencies, George couldn’t make it as a real > Travel Agent.  When consumers wised up and realized that can save money and > get better service by booking direct booking over the Internet, his sales > dropped.  Then airlines, hotels and rental cars offered even greater > discounts to encouraged electronic booking and reduced or eliminated Travel > Agent commissions.  George was hit by a double whammy. > He had to close up shop, get rid of the staff and work out of his house to > stay afloat. > Since airlines, hotels, rental cars and resorts encourage direct electronic > booking, cruises are now all he has left.  Like the other Internet Cruise > Travel Agents working out of their houses or apartments, he’s stuck in a > descending spiral.  He has few repeat clients and cruise tariffs are > continually dropping thus further eroding his sales.  He can’t afford to do > any real advertising so his website and constantly posting his URL on > rec.travel.cruises is all he has left. > It won’t last much longer.  When Cruise Lines do what the airlines and > hotels did and encourage direct electronic booking we’ll finally be rid of > these parasites.

Paul, The only parasite I see is you.  You are such a bore! After all these years, there is no hope for you~ you are the King of Misery! Jean

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George and Ray,     Should we tell Paul that 95% of all cruises are booked through travel agents?  Or that over 80% of domestic airline tickets and 90% of international airline tickets are booked through travel agents?  How about that in 1958, long before the internet was a twinkle in Al Gore’s eyes <G>, that airlines sold only 20% of their airline tickets through travel agents? Or that when airlines started cutting commissions, that the number of people booking their airline tickets through travel agents INCREASED?     Perhaps that he doesn’t realize that when he buys tickets through sites such as Skyacution that he is really buying a ticket that already was pruchased through a travel agent.  Or that travel agents actually can give you a better deal than the cruise lines, since the lines don’t refund the commission.     Perhaps he doesm’t want to listen to the truth. Tom Smith

Response:

Correct Thumper. Currently they do not only because that would anger Travel Agents.  Cruise Lines do not yet have the infrastructure to fully support on-line booking as the airlines, hotels and rental car agencies do so they need the agents.  Of course is will change in time.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Hi Mike, >There ya go again Mike, 2 plus 2 equals 5 right. >Direct booking over the internet means exactly that — booking >electronically directly with the actual service provider (airline, hotel, >cruise line, rental agency, resort, etc.), not through an "Internet Agent". >An "Internet Agent" as you call them, is another word for a middleman. In >this case one who merely adds cost while providing virtually no value added. >The Air, Hotel, and Rental Car segments of the travel industry recognized >this.  They now provide the consumer with incentives for direct electronic >booking thus passing on some of their cost savings to him.  They have also >reduced or eliminated most TA commissions and in some cases add a surcharge >for those that demand paper tickets. >Look Mike, rather than continually screw up what people are staying, I think >it would be better if you stuck to your specific area of expertise — >pictures of snowmen. >Your friend >Paul > I believe online booking will escalate when the cruise lines actually > begin giving discounts to people booking directly on their sites. > Thumper >> This is making perfect sense to me.  The same person who said this: >> > customers realized that can save money and get better service by booking >> direct booking over the Internet, >> also said this >> >  Avoid the "Internet Agents". >> and this: >> > book direct with the cruise line?  Not only will you save money by >cutting >> out the middle man >> So, you shouldn’t deal with internet agents, yet customers have realized >you >> can save money and get better service by booking direct booking (whatever >> that is) over the internet? >> Thanks for the translation, it’s much clearer now. >> > > Let me translate this for everyone. >> > > Like many small mom-and-pop agencies, George couldn’t make it as a >real >> > > Travel Agent.  When consumers wised up and realized that can save >money >> > and >> > > get better service by booking direct booking over the Internet, his >> sales >> > > dropped. >> > Paul, I sure do wish you had an "in" at the IRS.  They seem to be taking >a >> > different view of my business than you do.  I am a bit puzzled though. >In >> > one post you tell people to only deal with storefront agencies and now >you >> > are saying that storefront agencies are going broke and are closing >their >> > doors.  You might want to get the dosage changed on some of your meds. >We >> > wouldn’t want you going schizo on us again. >> > > It won’t last much longer.  When Cruise Lines do what the airlines and >> > > hotels did and encourage direct electronic booking we’ll finally be >rid >> of >> > > these parasites. >> > Speaking of parasites, how are things on the Unemployment line these >days. >> > Ooops… I’m sorry, I know you like to refer to yourself as a >> "consultant". >> > Now that you are getting close to retirement age I see that a lot of >your >> > fellow "consultants" are getting back into the work force by finding >> > consulting positions behind the grill at their local McDonald’s. OK so >it >> > isn’t a high profile job but you get free uniforms which you can wear >with >> > the bowling shoes you "borrowed" from the Bowl-A-Rama and when the 17 >year >> > old shift manager isn’t watching, you can "borrow" as many Big Mac’s as >> you >> > can stuff in your pants pockets.  I know, it isn’t the fine dining that >> you >> > are used to like those Friskies Prime Cuts-o-Fish Innards, but times are >> > tough and I’m sure you’ll do fine. >> > Keep taking your meds and try real hard to remember to attend those >Anger >> > Management classes. You are making such good progress and we are all >proud >> > of you. >> > Your friend, >> > George in PA >> > Countryside Travel www.countryside-travel.com >> > Hell Freezes Over www.cruisemaster.com/voyager.htm >> > Norway 2 www.cruisemaster.com/norway

Response:

go feed you kittens will ya

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Oh, I understand it now, so direct booking is going directly with the cruise > line is a sure fire way to save money, even though just minutes ago you > posted that Sky Auction was able to sell a cruise for less then going direct > with Carnival.  So even though you say time and time again that the only way > to save money is to go direct with the actual service provider, not through > an internet agent (which by the way is your term, not mine, now you are > saying stupid things then trying to blame others when you are quoted saying > them), even though you just posted that going through an internet agent you > can get a cruise for fifty cents per day. > It’s so much clearer to me know, going direct, in this case booking over the > internet directly with Carnival is the only way to save money, UNLESS > somebody else happens to be selling it for fifty cents per day, and unless > you happen to be the one to mention it.  Anybody else who saves money is > lying. > Go ahead, change your story once again. > Hi Mike, > There ya go again Mike, 2 plus 2 equals 5 right. > Direct booking over the internet means exactly that — booking > electronically directly with the actual service provider (airline, hotel, > cruise line, rental agency, resort, etc.), not through an "Internet > Agent". > An "Internet Agent" as you call them, is another word for a middleman. In > this case one who merely adds cost while providing virtually no value > added. > The Air, Hotel, and Rental Car segments of the travel industry recognized > this.  They now provide the consumer with incentives for direct electronic > booking thus passing on some of their cost savings to him.  They have also > reduced or eliminated most TA commissions and in some cases add a > surcharge > for those that demand paper tickets. > Look Mike, rather than continually screw up what people are staying, I > think > it would be better if you stuck to your specific area of expertise — > pictures of snowmen. > Your friend > Paul > > This is making perfect sense to me.  The same person who said this: > > > customers realized that can save money and get better service by > booking > > direct booking over the Internet, > > also said this > > >  Avoid the "Internet Agents". > > and this: > > > book direct with the cruise line?  Not only will you save money by > cutting > > out the middle man > > So, you shouldn’t deal with internet agents, yet customers have realized > you > > can save money and get better service by booking direct booking > (whatever > > that is) over the internet? > > Thanks for the translation, it’s much clearer now. > > > > Let me translate this for everyone. > > > > Like many small mom-and-pop agencies, George couldn’t make it as a > real > > > > Travel Agent.  When consumers wised up and realized that can save > money > > > and > > > > get better service by booking direct booking over the Internet, his > > sales > > > > dropped. > > > Paul, I sure do wish you had an "in" at the IRS.  They seem to be > taking > a > > > different view of my business than you do.  I am a bit puzzled though. > In > > > one post you tell people to only deal with storefront agencies and now > you > > > are saying that storefront agencies are going broke and are closing > their > > > doors.  You might want to get the dosage changed on some of your meds. > We > > > wouldn’t want you going schizo on us again. > > > > It won’t last much longer.  When Cruise Lines do what the airlines > and > > > > hotels did and encourage direct electronic booking we’ll finally be > rid > > of > > > > these parasites. > > > Speaking of parasites, how are things on the Unemployment line these > days. > > > Ooops… I’m sorry, I know you like to refer to yourself as a > > "consultant". > > > Now that you are getting close to retirement age I see that a lot of > your > > > fellow "consultants" are getting back into the work force by finding > > > consulting positions behind the grill at their local McDonald’s. OK so > it > > > isn’t a high profile job but you get free uniforms which you can wear > with > > > the bowling shoes you "borrowed" from the Bowl-A-Rama and when the 17 > year > > > old shift manager isn’t watching, you can "borrow" as many Big Mac’s > as > > you > > > can stuff in your pants pockets.  I know, it isn’t the fine dining > that > > you > > > are used to like those Friskies Prime Cuts-o-Fish Innards, but times > are > > > tough and I’m sure you’ll do fine. > > > Keep taking your meds and try real hard to remember to attend those > Anger > > > Management classes. You are making such good progress and we are all > proud > > > of you. > > > Your friend, > > > George in PA > > > Countryside Travel www.countryside-travel.com > > > Hell Freezes Over www.cruisemaster.com/voyager.htm > > > Norway 2 www.cruisemaster.com/norway

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Congratulations to Ray He found a way to post his URL and phone number 4 times in less than 30 minutes responding to Ernie’s post concerning the FTC allowing Carnival to bid for RCL And poor old George Leppla only got one in. It must be awful having no clients and just sitting there, day after day, hour after hour, reading each and every message on this newsgroup and posting hundreds of times a week just praying the phone will ring! Ah well when he goes under, there’s always fast food as a second career

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You have got some people issues that you need to deal with.  I would rather do what Ray does instead of bashing real people over a newsgroup. I realize that you are probably getting a huge kick out of this whole thing. Unless you are 12, which is what you sound like, I suggest you put some pants on, step away from the computer, and join the real world. I am curious though, why are you so above the rest of us?

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Congratulations to Ray > He found a way to post his URL and phone number 4 times in less than 30 > minutes responding to Ernie’s post concerning the FTC allowing Carnival to > bid for RCL > And poor old George Leppla only got one in. > It must be awful having no clients and just sitting there, day after day, > hour after hour, reading each and every message on this newsgroup and > posting hundreds of times a week just praying the phone will ring! > Ah well when he goes under, there’s always fast food as a second career

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Sean, do what the rest of us have learned to do and just ignore him. I put him in my kill file long ago and I only see his posts when someone else quotes him. For some reason he has a huge dislike for TA’s and Carnival. I guess he has nothing better to do with his time. Gordon I’m going on the MGC-2003 http://www.mgc2003.com/

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> You have got some people issues that you need to deal with.  I would rather > do what Ray does instead of bashing real people over a newsgroup. > I realize that you are probably getting a huge kick out of this whole thing. > Unless you are 12, which is what you sound like, I suggest you put some > pants on, step away from the computer, and join the real world. > I am curious though, why are you so above the rest of us? > Congratulations to Ray > He found a way to post his URL and phone number 4 times in less than 30 > minutes responding to Ernie’s post concerning the FTC allowing Carnival to > bid for RCL > And poor old George Leppla only got one in. > It must be awful having no clients and just sitting there, day after day, > hour after hour, reading each and every message on this newsgroup and > posting hundreds of times a week just praying the phone will ring! > Ah well when he goes under, there’s always fast food as a second career

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Maybe Ray and George need to join a nice local travel agency with a nice office in a mall, no complaints against them that has been in business for many years.  Maybe some place like Duke’s Travel Adventures in California. No wait, they stole all their clients money and went out of business, while Ray and George are still making people happy with nice vacations.  Funny how that works.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Congratulations to Ray > He found a way to post his URL and phone number 4 times in less than 30 > minutes responding to Ernie’s post concerning the FTC allowing Carnival to > bid for RCL > And poor old George Leppla only got one in. > It must be awful having no clients and just sitting there, day after day, > hour after hour, reading each and every message on this newsgroup and > posting hundreds of times a week just praying the phone will ring! > Ah well when he goes under, there’s always fast food as a second career

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> No wait, they stole all their clients money and went out of business, while > Ray and George are still making people happy with nice vacations.  Funny how > that works.

I kind of have to laugh at Paul.  For the first 5 years I was open, I was in a storefront location. As the business changed, the focus of my business changed and 4 years ago I moved into a home office. By doing this I am able to work more hours and provide more efficient service to my customers than when I was in the storefront. Consequently, my business is more profitable. According to Paul,  I was a good bet back in the old days but now I am not. BTW – Thanks Mike for mentioning my name. It gives me another opportunity to post! <vbg> — George in PA Countryside Travel www.countryside-travel.com Hell Freezes Over www.cruisemaster.com/voyager.htm Norway 2 www.cruisemaster.com/norway

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>I kind of have to laugh at Paul.

Hi George, Yeah, he is always good for a laugh.  It is just one of his many inaccuracies that old Slinky writes about us.  I always get a kick out of him saying we live in apartments.  Of course that is not true but he has never let the truth get in the way of his "story". <;+) Best regards, Ray LIGHTHOUSE TRAVEL 800-719-9917 or 805-566-3905 http://www.lighthousetravel.com

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> I always get a kick out >of him saying we live in apartments.  Of course that is not true

OH!!!  So then you DO live in trailers!

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Paul, you are hereby banished to my killfile…..go on get in there…….urumph…..there. Now be a good little troll and stay off this NG! Ray and George, don’t let the bastards get you down! MrTractor

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Congratulations to Ray > He found a way to post his URL and phone number 4 times in less than 30 > minutes responding to Ernie’s post concerning the FTC allowing Carnival to > bid for RCL > And poor old George Leppla only got one in. > It must be awful having no clients and just sitting there, day after day, > hour after hour, reading each and every message on this newsgroup and > posting hundreds of times a week just praying the phone will ring! > Ah well when he goes under, there’s always fast food as a second career

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> I always get a kick out >of him saying we live in apartments.  Of course that is not true > OH!!!  So then you DO live in trailers!

That conjures up a wonderful image of Ray and George sitting side by side at the same dinette table in their seedy trailers, each with only four teeth remaining, working on their websites, and waiting for Jerry Springer to call.  <VBG>

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I was thinking… Trump Tower. –Tom – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I always get a kick out >of him saying we live in apartments.  Of course that is not true > OH!!!  So then you DO live in trailers!

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Could be he’d have better luck with the trailers, since when he came to speak in Palm Beach a few days ago, hardly anyone showed up.  That’s Jerry Springer I’m talking about.  As for the four teeth, I’ve seen George eating shrimp.  You need a lot more than 4 teeth to gobble them up the way he does.  <VBG>  As for Ray, I’ve never met nor  seen a pix of him; will hold further opinion <G> Arlene – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > I always get a kick out > >of him saying we live in apartments.  Of course that is not true > OH!!!  So then you DO live in trailers! > That conjures up a wonderful image of Ray and George sitting side by side at > the same dinette table in their seedy trailers, each with only four teeth > remaining, working on their websites, and waiting for Jerry Springer to > call.  <VBG>

Response:

Let me translate this for everyone. Like many small mom-and-pop agencies, George couldn’t make it as a real Travel Agent.  When consumers wised up and realized that can save money and get better service by booking direct booking over the Internet, his sales dropped.  Then airlines, hotels and rental cars offered even greater discounts to encouraged electronic booking and reduced or eliminated  Travel Agent commissions.  George was hit by a double whammy. He had to close up shop, get rid of the staff and work out of his house to stay afloat. Since airlines, hotels, rental cars and resorts encourage direct electronic booking, cruises are now all he has left.  Like the other Internet Cruise Travel Agents working out of their houses or apartments, he’s stuck in a descending spiral.  He has few repeat clients and cruise tariffs are continually dropping thus further eroding his sales.  He can’t afford to do any real advertising so his website and constantly posting his URL on rec.travel.cruises is all he has left. It won’t last much longer.  When Cruise Lines do what the airlines and hotels did and encourage direct electronic booking we’ll finally be rid of these parasites.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> No wait, they stole all their clients money and went out of business, > while > Ray and George are still making people happy with nice vacations.  Funny > how > that works. > I kind of have to laugh at Paul.  For the first 5 years I was open, I was in > a storefront location. As the business changed, the focus of my business > changed and 4 years ago I moved into a home office. By doing this I am able > to work more hours and provide more efficient service to my customers than > when I was in the storefront. Consequently, my business is more profitable. > According to Paul,  I was a good bet back in the old days but now I am not. > BTW – Thanks Mike for mentioning my name. It gives me another opportunity to > post! <vbg> > — > George in PA > Countryside Travel www.countryside-travel.com > Hell Freezes Over www.cruisemaster.com/voyager.htm > Norway 2 www.cruisemaster.com/norway

Response:

> Let me translate this for everyone. > Like many small mom-and-pop agencies, George couldn’t make it as a real > Travel Agent.  When consumers wised up and realized that can save money and > get better service by booking direct booking over the Internet, his sales > dropped.

Paul, I sure do wish you had an "in" at the IRS.  They seem to be taking a different view of my business than you do.  I am a bit puzzled though.  In one post you tell people to only deal with storefront agencies and now you are saying that storefront agencies are going broke and are closing their doors.  You might want to get the dosage changed on some of your meds.  We wouldn’t want you going schizo on us again. > It won’t last much longer.  When Cruise Lines do what the airlines and > hotels did and encourage direct electronic booking we’ll finally be rid of > these parasites.

Speaking of parasites, how are things on the Unemployment line these days. Ooops… I’m sorry, I know you like to refer to yourself as a "consultant". Now that you are getting close to retirement age I see that a lot of your fellow "consultants" are getting back into the work force by finding consulting positions behind the grill at their local McDonald’s. OK so it isn’t a high profile job but you get free uniforms which you can wear with the bowling shoes you "borrowed" from the Bowl-A-Rama and when the 17 year old shift manager isn’t watching, you can "borrow" as many Big Mac’s as you can stuff in your pants pockets.  I know, it isn’t the fine dining that you are used to like those Friskies Prime Cuts-o-Fish Innards, but times are tough and I’m sure you’ll do fine. Keep taking your meds and try real hard to remember to attend those Anger Management classes. You are making such good progress and we are all proud of you. Your friend, George in PA Countryside Travel www.countryside-travel.com Hell Freezes Over www.cruisemaster.com/voyager.htm Norway 2 www.cruisemaster.com/norway

Response:

Sean,      Paul is a resident troll and complete idiot that has never posted anything useful in this newsgroup. For that reason most of us have killfiled him and never see his asinine posts unless they are quoted. It is really much better never to see anything he posts. Jim

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> You have got some people issues that you need to deal with.  I would rather > do what Ray does instead of bashing real people over a newsgroup. > I realize that you are probably getting a huge kick out of this whole thing. > Unless you are 12, which is what you sound like, I suggest you put some > pants on, step away from the computer, and join the real world. > I am curious though, why are you so above the rest of us? > Congratulations to Ray > He found a way to post his URL and phone number 4 times in less than 30 > minutes responding to Ernie’s post concerning the FTC allowing Carnival to > bid for RCL > And poor old George Leppla only got one in. > It must be awful having no clients and just sitting there, day after day, > hour after hour, reading each and every message on this newsgroup and > posting hundreds of times a week just praying the phone will ring! > Ah well when he goes under, there’s always fast food as a second career

Response:

This is making perfect sense to me.  The same person who said this: > customers realized that can save money and get better service by booking

direct booking over the Internet, also said this >  Avoid the "Internet Agents".

and this: > book direct with the cruise line?  Not only will you save money by cutting

out the middle man So, you shouldn’t deal with internet agents, yet customers have realized you can save money and get better service by booking direct booking (whatever that is) over the internet? Thanks for the translation, it’s much clearer now.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Let me translate this for everyone. > Like many small mom-and-pop agencies, George couldn’t make it as a real > Travel Agent.  When consumers wised up and realized that can save money > and > get better service by booking direct booking over the Internet, his sales > dropped. > Paul, I sure do wish you had an "in" at the IRS.  They seem to be taking a > different view of my business than you do.  I am a bit puzzled though.  In > one post you tell people to only deal with storefront agencies and now you > are saying that storefront agencies are going broke and are closing their > doors.  You might want to get the dosage changed on some of your meds.  We > wouldn’t want you going schizo on us again. > It won’t last much longer.  When Cruise Lines do what the airlines and > hotels did and encourage direct electronic booking we’ll finally be rid of > these parasites. > Speaking of parasites, how are things on the Unemployment line these days. > Ooops… I’m sorry, I know you like to refer to yourself as a "consultant". > Now that you are getting close to retirement age I see that a lot of your > fellow "consultants" are getting back into the work force by finding > consulting positions behind the grill at their local McDonald’s. OK so it > isn’t a high profile job but you get free uniforms which you can wear with > the bowling shoes you "borrowed" from the Bowl-A-Rama and when the 17 year > old shift manager isn’t watching, you can "borrow" as many Big Mac’s as you > can stuff in your pants pockets.  I know, it isn’t the fine dining that you > are used to like those Friskies Prime Cuts-o-Fish Innards, but times are > tough and I’m sure you’ll do fine. > Keep taking your meds and try real hard to remember to attend those Anger > Management classes. You are making such good progress and we are all proud > of you. > Your friend, > George in PA > Countryside Travel www.countryside-travel.com > Hell Freezes Over www.cruisemaster.com/voyager.htm > Norway 2 www.cruisemaster.com/norway

Response:

Back in the 1950’s, my Mother had a question for the likes of you, Paul. "If you’re so damn smart, why aren’t you rich?"  Nuff said. MisterEd <—  Another home-based cruiser.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Let me translate this for everyone. > Like many small mom-and-pop agencies, George couldn’t make it as a real > Travel Agent.  When consumers wised up and realized that can save money and > get better service by booking direct booking over the Internet, his sales > dropped.  Then airlines, hotels and rental cars offered even greater > discounts to encouraged electronic booking and reduced or eliminated Travel > Agent commissions.  George was hit by a double whammy. > He had to close up shop, get rid of the staff and work out of his house to > stay afloat. > Since airlines, hotels, rental cars and resorts encourage direct electronic > booking, cruises are now all he has left.  Like the other Internet Cruise > Travel Agents working out of their houses or apartments, he’s stuck in a > descending spiral.  He has few repeat clients and cruise tariffs are > continually dropping thus further eroding his sales.  He can’t afford to do > any real advertising so his website and constantly posting his URL on > rec.travel.cruises is all he has left. > It won’t last much longer.  When Cruise Lines do what the airlines and > hotels did and encourage direct electronic booking we’ll finally be rid of > these parasites. > > No wait, they stole all their clients money and went out of business, > while > > Ray and George are still making people happy with nice vacations. Funny > how > > that works. > I kind of have to laugh at Paul.  For the first 5 years I was open, I was > in > a storefront location. As the business changed, the focus of my business > changed and 4 years ago I moved into a home office. By doing this I am > able > to work more hours and provide more efficient service to my customers than > when I was in the storefront. Consequently, my business is more > profitable. > According to Paul,  I was a good bet back in the old days but now I am > not. > BTW – Thanks Mike for mentioning my name. It gives me another opportunity > to > post! <vbg> > — > George in PA > Countryside Travel www.countryside-travel.com > Hell Freezes Over www.cruisemaster.com/voyager.htm > Norway 2 www.cruisemaster.com/norway

Response:

Hi Mike, There ya go again Mike, 2 plus 2 equals 5 right. Direct booking over the internet means exactly that — booking electronically directly with the actual service provider (airline, hotel, cruise line, rental agency, resort, etc.), not through an "Internet Agent". An "Internet Agent" as you call them, is another word for a middleman.  In this case one who merely adds cost while providing virtually no value added. The Air, Hotel, and Rental Car segments of the travel industry recognized this.  They now provide the consumer with incentives for direct electronic booking thus passing on some of their cost savings to him.  They have also reduced or eliminated most TA commissions and in some cases add a surcharge for those that demand paper tickets. Look Mike, rather than continually screw up what people are staying, I think it would be better if you stuck to your specific area of expertise — pictures of snowmen. Your friend Paul

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> This is making perfect sense to me.  The same person who said this: > customers realized that can save money and get better service by booking > direct booking over the Internet, > also said this >  Avoid the "Internet Agents". > and this: > book direct with the cruise line?  Not only will you save money by cutting > out the middle man > So, you shouldn’t deal with internet agents, yet customers have realized you > can save money and get better service by booking direct booking (whatever > that is) over the internet? > Thanks for the translation, it’s much clearer now. > > Let me translate this for everyone. > > Like many small mom-and-pop agencies, George couldn’t make it as a real > > Travel Agent.  When consumers wised up and realized that can save money > and > > get better service by booking direct booking over the Internet, his > sales > > dropped. > Paul, I sure do wish you had an "in" at the IRS.  They seem to be taking a > different view of my business than you do.  I am a bit puzzled though. In > one post you tell people to only deal with storefront agencies and now you > are saying that storefront agencies are going broke and are closing their > doors.  You might want to get the dosage changed on some of your meds. We > wouldn’t want you going schizo on us again. > > It won’t last much longer.  When Cruise Lines do what the airlines and > > hotels did and encourage direct electronic booking we’ll finally be rid > of > > these parasites. > Speaking of parasites, how are things on the Unemployment line these days. > Ooops… I’m sorry, I know you like to refer to yourself as a > "consultant". > Now that you are getting close to retirement age I see that a lot of your > fellow "consultants" are getting back into the work force by finding > consulting positions behind the grill at their local McDonald’s. OK so it > isn’t a high profile job but you get free uniforms which you can wear with > the bowling shoes you "borrowed" from the Bowl-A-Rama and when the 17 year > old shift manager isn’t watching, you can "borrow" as many Big Mac’s as > you > can stuff in your pants pockets.  I know, it isn’t the fine dining that > you > are used to like those Friskies Prime Cuts-o-Fish Innards, but times are > tough and I’m sure you’ll do fine. > Keep taking your meds and try real hard to remember to attend those Anger > Management classes. You are making such good progress and we are all proud > of you. > Your friend, > George in PA > Countryside Travel www.countryside-travel.com > Hell Freezes Over www.cruisemaster.com/voyager.htm > Norway 2 www.cruisemaster.com/norway

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >Hi Mike, >There ya go again Mike, 2 plus 2 equals 5 right. >Direct booking over the internet means exactly that — booking >electronically directly with the actual service provider (airline, hotel, >cruise line, rental agency, resort, etc.), not through an "Internet Agent". >An "Internet Agent" as you call them, is another word for a middleman.  In >this case one who merely adds cost while providing virtually no value added. >The Air, Hotel, and Rental Car segments of the travel industry recognized >this.  They now provide the consumer with incentives for direct electronic >booking thus passing on some of their cost savings to him.  They have also >reduced or eliminated most TA commissions and in some cases add a surcharge >for those that demand paper tickets. >Look Mike, rather than continually screw up what people are staying, I think >it would be better if you stuck to your specific area of expertise — >pictures of snowmen. >Your friend >Paul

I believe online booking will escalate when the cruise lines actually begin giving discounts to people booking directly on their sites. Thumper – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> This is making perfect sense to me.  The same person who said this: > > customers realized that can save money and get better service by booking > direct booking over the Internet, > also said this > >  Avoid the "Internet Agents". > and this: > > book direct with the cruise line?  Not only will you save money by >cutting > out the middle man > So, you shouldn’t deal with internet agents, yet customers have realized >you > can save money and get better service by booking direct booking (whatever > that is) over the internet? > Thanks for the translation, it’s much clearer now. > > > Let me translate this for everyone. > > > Like many small mom-and-pop agencies, George couldn’t make it as a >real > > > Travel Agent.  When consumers wised up and realized that can save >money > > and > > > get better service by booking direct booking over the Internet, his > sales > > > dropped. > > Paul, I sure do wish you had an "in" at the IRS.  They seem to be taking >a > > different view of my business than you do.  I am a bit puzzled though. >In > > one post you tell people to only deal with storefront agencies and now >you > > are saying that storefront agencies are going broke and are closing >their > > doors.  You might want to get the dosage changed on some of your meds. >We > > wouldn’t want you going schizo on us again. > > > It won’t last much longer.  When Cruise Lines do what the airlines and > > > hotels did and encourage direct electronic booking we’ll finally be >rid > of > > > these parasites. > > Speaking of parasites, how are things on the Unemployment line these >days. > > Ooops… I’m sorry, I know you like to refer to yourself as a > "consultant". > > Now that you are getting close to retirement age I see that a lot of >your > > fellow "consultants" are getting back into the work force by finding > > consulting positions behind the grill at their local McDonald’s. OK so >it > > isn’t a high profile job but you get free uniforms which you can wear >with > > the bowling shoes you "borrowed" from the Bowl-A-Rama and when the 17 >year > > old shift manager isn’t watching, you can "borrow" as many Big Mac’s as > you > > can stuff in your pants pockets.  I know, it isn’t the fine dining that > you > > are used to like those Friskies Prime Cuts-o-Fish Innards, but times are > > tough and I’m sure you’ll do fine. > > Keep taking your meds and try real hard to remember to attend those >Anger > > Management classes. You are making such good progress and we are all >proud > > of you. > > Your friend, > > George in PA > > Countryside Travel www.countryside-travel.com > > Hell Freezes Over www.cruisemaster.com/voyager.htm > > Norway 2 www.cruisemaster.com/norway

Response:

Oh, I understand it now, so direct booking is going directly with the cruise line is a sure fire way to save money, even though just minutes ago you posted that Sky Auction was able to sell a cruise for less then going direct with Carnival.  So even though you say time and time again that the only way to save money is to go direct with the actual service provider, not through an internet agent (which by the way is your term, not mine, now you are saying stupid things then trying to blame others when you are quoted saying them), even though you just posted that going through an internet agent you can get a cruise for fifty cents per day. It’s so much clearer to me know, going direct, in this case booking over the internet directly with Carnival is the only way to save money, UNLESS somebody else happens to be selling it for fifty cents per day, and unless you happen to be the one to mention it.  Anybody else who saves money is lying. Go ahead, change your story once again.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Hi Mike, > There ya go again Mike, 2 plus 2 equals 5 right. > Direct booking over the internet means exactly that — booking > electronically directly with the actual service provider (airline, hotel, > cruise line, rental agency, resort, etc.), not through an "Internet Agent". > An "Internet Agent" as you call them, is another word for a middleman.  In > this case one who merely adds cost while providing virtually no value added. > The Air, Hotel, and Rental Car segments of the travel industry recognized > this.  They now provide the consumer with incentives for direct electronic > booking thus passing on some of their cost savings to him.  They have also > reduced or eliminated most TA commissions and in some cases add a surcharge > for those that demand paper tickets. > Look Mike, rather than continually screw up what people are staying, I think > it would be better if you stuck to your specific area of expertise — > pictures of snowmen. > Your friend > Paul > This is making perfect sense to me.  The same person who said this: > > customers realized that can save money and get better service by booking > direct booking over the Internet, > also said this > >  Avoid the "Internet Agents". > and this: > > book direct with the cruise line?  Not only will you save money by > cutting > out the middle man > So, you shouldn’t deal with internet agents, yet customers have realized > you > can save money and get better service by booking direct booking (whatever > that is) over the internet? > Thanks for the translation, it’s much clearer now. > > > Let me translate this for everyone. > > > Like many small mom-and-pop agencies, George couldn’t make it as a > real > > > Travel Agent.  When consumers wised up and realized that can save > money > > and > > > get better service by booking direct booking over the Internet, his > sales > > > dropped. > > Paul, I sure do wish you had an "in" at the IRS.  They seem to be taking > a > > different view of my business than you do.  I am a bit puzzled though. > In > > one post you tell people to only deal with storefront agencies and now > you > > are saying that storefront agencies are going broke and are closing > their > > doors.  You might want to get the dosage changed on some of your meds. > We > > wouldn’t want you going schizo on us again. > > > It won’t last much longer.  When Cruise Lines do what the airlines and > > > hotels did and encourage direct electronic booking we’ll finally be > rid > of > > > these parasites. > > Speaking of parasites, how are things on the Unemployment line these > days. > > Ooops… I’m sorry, I know you like to refer to yourself as a > "consultant". > > Now that you are getting close to retirement age I see that a lot of > your > > fellow "consultants" are getting back into the work force by finding > > consulting positions behind the grill at their local McDonald’s. OK so > it > > isn’t a high profile job but you get free uniforms which you can wear > with > > the bowling shoes you "borrowed" from the Bowl-A-Rama and when the 17 > year > > old shift manager isn’t watching, you can "borrow" as many Big Mac’s as > you > > can stuff in your pants pockets.  I know, it isn’t the fine dining that > you > > are used to like those Friskies Prime Cuts-o-Fish Innards, but times are > > tough and I’m sure you’ll do fine. > > Keep taking your meds and try real hard to remember to attend those > Anger > > Management classes. You are making such good progress and we are all > proud > > of you. > > Your friend, > > George in PA > > Countryside Travel www.countryside-travel.com > > Hell Freezes Over www.cruisemaster.com/voyager.htm > > Norway 2 www.cruisemaster.com/norway

Response:

>There ya go again Mike, 2 plus 2 equals 5 right.

For sufficiently large values of 2 … Be seeing you In the Village Number 6

Response:

I met George last month on the Inspiration and with his huge smile be assured he has plenty of teeth, to go along with his neat personality. Also what is wrong with living in a trailer? I do and it’s paid for, and so is my 2002 Mercedes.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Let me translate this for everyone. > Like many small mom-and-pop agencies, George couldn’t make it as a real > Travel Agent.  When consumers wised up and realized that can save money and > get better service by booking direct booking over the Internet, his sales > dropped.  Then airlines, hotels and rental cars offered even greater > discounts to encouraged electronic booking and reduced or eliminated Travel > Agent commissions.  George was hit by a double whammy. > He had to close up shop, get rid of the staff and work out of his house to > stay afloat. > Since airlines, hotels, rental cars and resorts encourage direct electronic > booking, cruises are now all he has left.  Like the other Internet Cruise > Travel Agents working out of their houses or apartments, he’s stuck in a > descending spiral.  He has few repeat clients and cruise tariffs are > continually dropping thus further eroding his sales.  He can’t afford to do > any real advertising so his website and constantly posting his URL on > rec.travel.cruises is all he has left. > It won’t last much longer.  When Cruise Lines do what the airlines and > hotels did and encourage direct electronic booking we’ll finally be rid of > these parasites.

Paul, The only parasite I see is you.  You are such a bore! After all these years, there is no hope for you~ you are the King of Misery! Jean

Response:

George and Ray,     Should we tell Paul that 95% of all cruises are booked through travel agents?  Or that over 80% of domestic airline tickets and 90% of international airline tickets are booked through travel agents?  How about that in 1958, long before the internet was a twinkle in Al Gore’s eyes <G>, that airlines sold only 20% of their airline tickets through travel agents? Or that when airlines started cutting commissions, that the number of people booking their airline tickets through travel agents INCREASED?     Perhaps that he doesn’t realize that when he buys tickets through sites such as Skyacution that he is really buying a ticket that already was pruchased through a travel agent.  Or that travel agents actually can give you a better deal than the cruise lines, since the lines don’t refund the commission.     Perhaps he doesm’t want to listen to the truth. Tom Smith

Response:

Correct Thumper. Currently they do not only because that would anger Travel Agents.  Cruise Lines do not yet have the infrastructure to fully support on-line booking as the airlines, hotels and rental car agencies do so they need the agents.  Of course is will change in time.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Hi Mike, >There ya go again Mike, 2 plus 2 equals 5 right. >Direct booking over the internet means exactly that — booking >electronically directly with the actual service provider (airline, hotel, >cruise line, rental agency, resort, etc.), not through an "Internet Agent". >An "Internet Agent" as you call them, is another word for a middleman. In >this case one who merely adds cost while providing virtually no value added. >The Air, Hotel, and Rental Car segments of the travel industry recognized >this.  They now provide the consumer with incentives for direct electronic >booking thus passing on some of their cost savings to him.  They have also >reduced or eliminated most TA commissions and in some cases add a surcharge >for those that demand paper tickets. >Look Mike, rather than continually screw up what people are staying, I think >it would be better if you stuck to your specific area of expertise — >pictures of snowmen. >Your friend >Paul > I believe online booking will escalate when the cruise lines actually > begin giving discounts to people booking directly on their sites. > Thumper >> This is making perfect sense to me.  The same person who said this: >> > customers realized that can save money and get better service by booking >> direct booking over the Internet, >> also said this >> >  Avoid the "Internet Agents". >> and this: >> > book direct with the cruise line?  Not only will you save money by >cutting >> out the middle man >> So, you shouldn’t deal with internet agents, yet customers have realized >you >> can save money and get better service by booking direct booking (whatever >> that is) over the internet? >> Thanks for the translation, it’s much clearer now. >> > > Let me translate this for everyone. >> > > Like many small mom-and-pop agencies, George couldn’t make it as a >real >> > > Travel Agent.  When consumers wised up and realized that can save >money >> > and >> > > get better service by booking direct booking over the Internet, his >> sales >> > > dropped. >> > Paul, I sure do wish you had an "in" at the IRS.  They seem to be taking >a >> > different view of my business than you do.  I am a bit puzzled though. >In >> > one post you tell people to only deal with storefront agencies and now >you >> > are saying that storefront agencies are going broke and are closing >their >> > doors.  You might want to get the dosage changed on some of your meds. >We >> > wouldn’t want you going schizo on us again. >> > > It won’t last much longer.  When Cruise Lines do what the airlines and >> > > hotels did and encourage direct electronic booking we’ll finally be >rid >> of >> > > these parasites. >> > Speaking of parasites, how are things on the Unemployment line these >days. >> > Ooops… I’m sorry, I know you like to refer to yourself as a >> "consultant". >> > Now that you are getting close to retirement age I see that a lot of >your >> > fellow "consultants" are getting back into the work force by finding >> > consulting positions behind the grill at their local McDonald’s. OK so >it >> > isn’t a high profile job but you get free uniforms which you can wear >with >> > the bowling shoes you "borrowed" from the Bowl-A-Rama and when the 17 >year >> > old shift manager isn’t watching, you can "borrow" as many Big Mac’s as >> you >> > can stuff in your pants pockets.  I know, it isn’t the fine dining that >> you >> > are used to like those Friskies Prime Cuts-o-Fish Innards, but times are >> > tough and I’m sure you’ll do fine. >> > Keep taking your meds and try real hard to remember to attend those >Anger >> > Management classes. You are making such good progress and we are all >proud >> > of you. >> > Your friend, >> > George in PA >> > Countryside Travel www.countryside-travel.com >> > Hell Freezes Over www.cruisemaster.com/voyager.htm >> > Norway 2 www.cruisemaster.com/norway

Response:

go feed you kittens will ya

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Oh, I understand it now, so direct booking is going directly with the cruise > line is a sure fire way to save money, even though just minutes ago you > posted that Sky Auction was able to sell a cruise for less then going direct > with Carnival.  So even though you say time and time again that the only way > to save money is to go direct with the actual service provider, not through > an internet agent (which by the way is your term, not mine, now you are > saying stupid things then trying to blame others when you are quoted saying > them), even though you just posted that going through an internet agent you > can get a cruise for fifty cents per day. > It’s so much clearer to me know, going direct, in this case booking over the > internet directly with Carnival is the only way to save money, UNLESS > somebody else happens to be selling it for fifty cents per day, and unless > you happen to be the one to mention it.  Anybody else who saves money is > lying. > Go ahead, change your story once again. > Hi Mike, > There ya go again Mike, 2 plus 2 equals 5 right. > Direct booking over the internet means exactly that — booking > electronically directly with the actual service provider (airline, hotel, > cruise line, rental agency, resort, etc.), not through an "Internet > Agent". > An "Internet Agent" as you call them, is another word for a middleman. In > this case one who merely adds cost while providing virtually no value > added. > The Air, Hotel, and Rental Car segments of the travel industry recognized > this.  They now provide the consumer with incentives for direct electronic > booking thus passing on some of their cost savings to him.  They have also > reduced or eliminated most TA commissions and in some cases add a > surcharge > for those that demand paper tickets. > Look Mike, rather than continually screw up what people are staying, I > think > it would be better if you stuck to your specific area of expertise — > pictures of snowmen. > Your friend > Paul > > This is making perfect sense to me.  The same person who said this: > > > customers realized that can save money and get better service by > booking > > direct booking over the Internet, > > also said this > > >  Avoid the "Internet Agents". > > and this: > > > book direct with the cruise line?  Not only will you save money by > cutting > > out the middle man > > So, you shouldn’t deal with internet agents, yet customers have realized > you > > can save money and get better service by booking direct booking > (whatever > > that is) over the internet? > > Thanks for the translation, it’s much clearer now. > > > > Let me translate this for everyone. > > > > Like many small mom-and-pop agencies, George couldn’t make it as a > real > > > > Travel Agent.  When consumers wised up and realized that can save > money > > > and > > > > get better service by booking direct booking over the Internet, his > > sales > > > > dropped. > > > Paul, I sure do wish you had an "in" at the IRS.  They seem to be > taking > a > > > different view of my business than you do.  I am a bit puzzled though. > In > > > one post you tell people to only deal with storefront agencies and now > you > > > are saying that storefront agencies are going broke and are closing > their > > > doors.  You might want to get the dosage changed on some of your meds. > We > > > wouldn’t want you going schizo on us again. > > > > It won’t last much longer.  When Cruise Lines do what the airlines > and > > > > hotels did and encourage direct electronic booking we’ll finally be > rid > > of > > > > these parasites. > > > Speaking of parasites, how are things on the Unemployment line these > days. > > > Ooops… I’m sorry, I know you like to refer to yourself as a > > "consultant". > > > Now that you are getting close to retirement age I see that a lot of > your > > > fellow "consultants" are getting back into the work force by finding > > > consulting positions behind the grill at their local McDonald’s. OK so > it > > > isn’t a high profile job but you get free uniforms which you can wear > with > > > the bowling shoes you "borrowed" from the Bowl-A-Rama and when the 17 > year > > > old shift manager isn’t watching, you can "borrow" as many Big Mac’s > as > > you > > > can stuff in your pants pockets.  I know, it isn’t the fine dining > that > > you > > > are used to like those Friskies Prime Cuts-o-Fish Innards, but times > are > > > tough and I’m sure you’ll do fine. > > > Keep taking your meds and try real hard to remember to attend those > Anger > > > Management classes. You are making such good progress and we are all > proud > > > of you. > > > Your friend, > > > George in PA > > > Countryside Travel www.countryside-travel.com > > > Hell Freezes Over www.cruisemaster.com/voyager.htm > > > Norway 2 www.cruisemaster.com/norway

Response:

Barred from offering frequent flyer miles for flights within Sweden (and in Denmark a few months/years ago IIRC), SAS is dropping business class for flights within Sweden, Denmark and Norway to face the discount carriers. One wonders if this portends the future for Europe.

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If this means lower economy fares, Great!

Response:

: If this means lower economy fares, Great! Evidently it does — SAS just announced that, at least in Finland, it will start offering flights from Helsinki to London and Amsterdam for 136e starting April 1st.  And no, the date isn’t a joke, it’s just the same date that Buzz stops flying to Finland.  Never thought I’d see the day SAS becomes a budget carrier… Cheers, — Jani Patokallio  >O._,  El

I am concerned at the actions of the French DGAC and their harassment, dirty tricks and  mis-information spread concerning Continental Wings Comores Airlines. This airline is wholly owned by a small, peaceful, friendly, Islamic Government in Comores. The aircraft, a Boeing 747SP manufacturers serial number 22302 and now registered in Comores D6-OZX is owned and operated by my company Global Air Leasing for and on behalf of the wholly Comores Government owned company Continental Wings Comores Airlines. No personal investments whatsoever are held in the Continental Wings Comores Airlines, it is at this time wholly and 100% owned by the Federal Islamic Republic of Comores. Initially, this was intended to be a joint venture with a German backed group from Munich, however, it became apparent that this group did not have many of the things they had represented to the Government of F.I.R. Comores and indeed the World Bank. The World Bank, together with specialist experienced aviation consultants S.H. & E. from New York selected by the World Bank oversaw the formulation of the project and made the recommendation in favour of the German group’s business plan over two other rival plans. Unfortunately the German group turned out to lack the necessary investment capital, key experienced operational personnel and management experience, although their business plan certainly did not indicate this and was generally well prepared and presented. These circumstances could not be concealed beyond the first few weeks of operations when it eventually became clear to all involved that the investors had not in fact invested the money they had represented and agreed to invest. This action and the concealment of it was only possible with the assistance of and fully involved co-operation from a Marseilles based travel company that funded operations on behalf of the German group from their ticket and freight sales revenues. A meeting was held in Paris mid July of this year between the Comores Government representative in charge of dealing with this project, Capitane Fakriddine Mahamoud, Directeur du Cabinet de Chef de l’Etat – F.I.R. Comores, Eric Sossah, the Lawyer for the Government of Comores based in Paris, Thomas Grothe from the proposed German investors, Izu Scwartz of MATS Travel Company, Marseilles and myself. The German group eventually handed back their shares to your Government having never paid for them by investing the capital promised and resigned from the company. Global Air Leasing was asked by the Comores Government to stay and support their Airline as we have the aircraft, some key experienced personnel and have financially supported their company. I was asked to act as Administrator for the Airline. Neither I nor my company have any shares in the Airline or derive any revenue from being Administrator. Sometime ago now I had to decide who should be appointed as General Sales Agent for the Airline for France whose job would be to co-ordinate passenger ticket sales between the various travel agents in Marseilles and in fact over all of France. It should be noted that there had never been any such agreement for any such person or company previously. After looking at our options and meeting the people and companies interested on a number of occasions I decided that it would be most important to find someone with deep experience, someone who was prepared to support in all ways, including financially, the project of Continental Wings Comores Airlines, someone who was trustworthy and someone with patience and endurance through the inevitable difficulties that arise in most businesses when they get started. For all of these reasons I chose Mr Tony Medawar of Pacific Elysees, Paris and I must say to all that care to hear, Tony has surpassed my expectations and lives up to every one of his promises. I am greatly impressed by the many good people we deal with especially in Comores that really support their Airline by their work in so many areas. These people know who they are. They know their jobs and are ever eager to assist us all to try to make your Airline something that your Country can be proud of as a real achievement in the advancement of tourism, communications, freight, business, holiday, personal and family visitation travel in Comores and shortly in the surrounding regional area. Your readers may not be too surprised to know that we have been targeted for many inspections of our aircraft, our maintenance our crews and so forth by the French Civil Aviation Authorities since the beginning of our flights from Marseilles. I am pleased to report that we have had no less than 5 airworthiness inspections by the French Civil Aviation Authorities of our aircraft at various times in Marseilles and have passed all with flying colours. We have had similar experiences with our crews and our records and again all was checked and pronounced each time to be in order and acceptable to the French Civil Aviation Authorities. The aircraft was deliverd for this project with a current Certificate of Airworthiness issued by the Australian Civil Aviation and Safety Authority (CASA) and a fresh maintenance check and release to service (as further confirmation of its continued airworthiness) by Garuda Maintenance Facility which holds European (JAA), American (FAA) as well as Australian (CASA) certificates and authorities. The Comores DGAC inspected the aircraft, its records and maintenance system on arrival (as had the Australian authorities when they issued their certificate of airworthiness) and found all in order. The frequency and amount of the French Authorities questioning increased again around 11th and 12th October. Once again all of their questions have been answered, with appropriate documents supplied. It is our job to be ready and we take this and the safety of our operations very seriously. The French Civil Aviation Authorities issued a media release to the effect that they would stop the flights because of safety and security concerns for the passengers, etc. I am told they also issued another notice retracting this media statement a couple of hours after the first one was released – but somehow the story that appeared did not reflect or mention this AND the rather obvious questions that might flow from these actions. In spite of all of this Continental Wings Comores Airline’s flight on Monday 15th was fully authorised and approved by the same French Civil Aviation Authorities as being safe, secure and permitted to fly passengers and freight from Marseilles to Comores. Behind the scences also there have been some literally breathtaking inconsistencies by the French Civil Aviation Authorities. I can certainly sympathise with any in the Media or the public who have difficulty in understanding the position of the French Civil Aviation Authorities. It may not even be too unreasonable to imagine that because of their quite evident inconsistencies they have their own agenda. Beyond a certain point I think it is quite reasonable to see their actions amount to a form of harassment acting against the Federal Islamic Republic of Comores and their National Airline by the French Civil Aviation Authorities. Whether this goes higher in the French Government is a question I cannot answer. As usual, the actions of the French Civil Aviation Austhorities and indeed the French Government not necessarily their words will tell us all what we need to know. I leave it to your readers to imagine how well the French Authorities actions so far in this matter would stand up to any serious detailed independent scrutiny in the international and public arena. Or would it just be seen to be France prejudicing and commercilly sabotaging the endeavours of a small, friendly, peaceful, Islamic Country – a former Colony of France, that has been trying its best to develop an important new business and service for the Comorienne people as well as the people of France? Surely, it could not go un-noticed by the French Authorities that a French Airline operates to Comores and perhaps others from France would like to also. It is worthy to also note the Comores Government has allowed them traffic rights and access to the market which is also served from Europe by Sudan and Yemenia. It is certainly not noticeable that this French Airline is subject to the same over zealous treatment by the French Civil Aviation Authorities as Continental Wings Comores Airlines is subject to let alone the stigma of having prejudicial and blatantly inaccurate statements as to safety and security issued and run in the National Media of France. These same statements being disproved and contradicted by the fact the flights were approved which is tantamount to an admission by the French Civil Aviation Authorities that they got it wrong. This being further confirmed by their as yet unreported upon retraction of their earlier media release. For the record the aircraft is maintained according to the Boeing maintenance manual and operated according to the Boeing aircraft operations manual as recognised all over the world (including Air France who do the same) and approved by the Comores Civil Aviation Authorities who in turn act according to the rules of ICAO (the International Civil Aviation Organisation that sets standards that France, Comores agree to be bound by, as indeed are most countries). It has been quite a significant challenge for all involved the establishment and foundation of Continental Wings Comores Airlines. I would like personally congratulate all of those involved, all who have travelled with us, who plan to travel with us or who have supported us even in their kind thoughts. It will be important to carefully build upon the foundations already laid over the last 3 months or so since operations of Continental Wings Comores Airlines commenced. We have a plan to enhance and support  the existing business with regional services that can feed

… read more »

Response:

Your post is interesting, although I’m curious as to the identity of your intended audience in this newsgroup.  I was also intrigued by your statement that the venture is "100% owned by the Federal Islamic Republic of Comores".  I cannot imagine that the Comorian government has the capital to invest in this sort of thing: have they in fact put any funds into the venture?  Are any figures available?  I’m not an expert in aviation, but would imagine that running a 747 is not cheap – how many seats are you filling on your flights? — Iain Walker Department of Anthropology University of Sydney NSW 2006 Australia

Response:

>The Vasa is written up somewhere on the web (I don’t have the location >to hand right now) as a case study in the management of innovation. >There are remarkably strong parallels between the problems which >affected the design and implementation of the Vasa, and those which >are seen in information systems now.  For instance the king of Sweden >(the client? the line manager?) had committed an excessive proportion >of the country’s wealth to one, risky, project.  There was a very >expert designer (a consultant?) who was involved at the start but was >off the scene well before the project was completed.  There were tests >where the results were ignored when they suggested outcomes which >didn’t suit the management.  And so on.

You are just too right for comfort. — Michael Forrest

Response:

>> Maybe someone will raise the Bismark some day and then there will be > two. (smiley). >I think her fate was just because some people out there didn’t like her >shape ? >RAF could have been more careful

They also didn’t like it that she had just sunk HMS Hood (a battle cruiser). And I may be wrong but I think it was the Fleet Air Arm (effectively the naval air force) and not the RAF that put paid to it. (These military people are sticklers for their demarcation disputes – (smiley)) — Michael Forrest

Response:

> >40 years ago: Raising the Vasa! >On 24 April 1961 the mighty warship > Mighty warship?  It sunk the first time they tried to sail it!  It > never saw any service at all, did it?

Oh Petya. 25 million visitors so far !  Do you think they are all wrong ? It’s the best purpose built tourist trap in the world.        L.P

Response:

> Maybe someone will raise the Bismark some day and then there will be > two. (smiley).

I think her fate was just because some people out there didn’t like her shape ? RAF could have been more careful     L.P

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->40 years ago: Raising the Vasa! >On 24 April 1961 the mighty warship >Vasa once again saw the light of day >after 333 years on the seabed. >Please click on the Link to read more about the anniversary! >http://www.vasamuseet.se/ >Welcome To Stockholm, Sweden >And The Vasa Museum this Summer >Let me recommend a visit. We saw it last summer and found it extremely >interesting and impressive.

The Vasa is written up somewhere on the web (I don’t have the location to hand right now) as a case study in the management of innovation. There are remarkably strong parallels between the problems which affected the design and implementation of the Vasa, and those which are seen in information systems now.  For instance the king of Sweden (the client? the line manager?) had committed an excessive proportion of the country’s wealth to one, risky, project.  There was a very expert designer (a consultant?) who was involved at the start but was off the scene well before the project was completed.  There were tests where the results were ignored when they suggested outcomes which didn’t suit the management.  And so on. Martin — City University Business School,  London, UK Fax   (020) 7040 8628    http://www.city.ac.uk/martin

Response:

>>>40 years ago: Raising the Vasa! >>On 24 April 1961 the mighty warship >Mighty warship?  It sunk the first time they tried to sail it!  It >never saw any service at all, did it? >A harbinger of Swedish neutrality.

   Sweden was far from neutral during the 17th century, how    improbable it might seem today, it was a European power deeply    involved in European wars of the time. The 17th century is called   the Great Power period in Swedish history.   One ship that saw service was "Kronan" (the Crown) which exploded   (just like Hood!) off Oland in battle. It was the flagship of the   Swedish Navy. 800 sailors and soldiers perished.   If you happen to visit the "Glass Kingdom" in Smaland – the Kronan  exhibitions in Kalmar is not far away.   Kronan website:   http://www.kalmarlansmuseum.se/kronan/english/  MW, Sthlm, SE – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->PB

Response:

>> >And The Vasa Museum this Summer > Let me recommend a visit. We saw it last summer and found it extremely > interesting and impressive. > Like the Bismark it failed to complete its maiden voyage. > Michael Forrest >Are you sure it was a failure ?  After all Vasa is the sole survivor

Maybe someone will raise the Bismark some day and then there will be two. (smiley). — Michael Forrest

Response:

> >40 years ago: Raising the Vasa! >On 24 April 1961 the mighty warship >Vasa once again saw the light of day >after 333 years on the seabed. >Please click on the Link to read more about the anniversary! >http://www.vasamuseet.se/ >Welcome To Stockholm, Sweden >And The Vasa Museum this Summer > Let me recommend a visit. We saw it last summer and found it extremely > interesting and impressive. > Like the Bismark it failed to complete its maiden voyage. > Michael Forrest

Are you sure it was a failure ?  After all Vasa is the sole survivor                  L.P

Response:

>40 years ago: Raising the Vasa! >On 24 April 1961 the mighty warship

Mighty warship?  It sunk the first time they tried to sail it!  It never saw any service at all, did it? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Vasa once again saw the light of day >after 333 years on the seabed. >Please click on the Link to read more about the anniversary! >http://www.vasamuseet.se/ >Welcome To Stockholm, Sweden >And The Vasa Museum this Summer >Regards Putte >– >            _\|//_ >            (‘ . . ‘)

Response:

>>40 years ago: Raising the Vasa! >On 24 April 1961 the mighty warship >Mighty warship?  It sunk the first time they tried to sail it!  It >never saw any service at all, did it?

A harbinger of Swedish neutrality. PB

Response:

40 years ago: Raising the Vasa! On 24 April 1961 the mighty warship Vasa once again saw the light of day after 333 years on the seabed. Please click on the Link to read more about the anniversary! http://www.vasamuseet.se/ Welcome To Stockholm, Sweden And The Vasa Museum this Summer Regards Putte —             _\|//_             (‘ . . ‘)

Response:

>40 years ago: Raising the Vasa! >On 24 April 1961 the mighty warship >Vasa once again saw the light of day >after 333 years on the seabed. >Please click on the Link to read more about the anniversary! >http://www.vasamuseet.se/ >Welcome To Stockholm, Sweden >And The Vasa Museum this Summer

Let me recommend a visit. We saw it last summer and found it extremely interesting and impressive. Like the Bismark it failed to complete its maiden voyage. — Michael Forrest

Response:

40 years ago: Raising the Vasa! On 24 April 1961 the mighty warship Vasa once again saw the light of day after 333 years on the seabed. Please click on the Link to read more about the anniversary! http://www.vasamuseet.se/ Welcome To Stockholm, Sweden And The Vasa Museum this Summer Regards Putte —             _\|//_             (‘ . . ‘)

Response:

>40 years ago: Raising the Vasa! >On 24 April 1961 the mighty warship >Vasa once again saw the light of day >after 333 years on the seabed. >Please click on the Link to read more about the anniversary! >http://www.vasamuseet.se/ >Welcome To Stockholm, Sweden >And The Vasa Museum this Summer

Let me recommend a visit. We saw it last summer and found it extremely interesting and impressive. Like the Bismark it failed to complete its maiden voyage. — Michael Forrest

Response:

> >40 years ago: Raising the Vasa! >On 24 April 1961 the mighty warship >Vasa once again saw the light of day >after 333 years on the seabed. >Please click on the Link to read more about the anniversary! >http://www.vasamuseet.se/ >Welcome To Stockholm, Sweden >And The Vasa Museum this Summer > Let me recommend a visit. We saw it last summer and found it extremely > interesting and impressive. > Like the Bismark it failed to complete its maiden voyage. > Michael Forrest

Are you sure it was a failure ?  After all Vasa is the sole survivor                  L.P

Response:

>40 years ago: Raising the Vasa! >On 24 April 1961 the mighty warship

Mighty warship?  It sunk the first time they tried to sail it!  It never saw any service at all, did it? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Vasa once again saw the light of day >after 333 years on the seabed. >Please click on the Link to read more about the anniversary! >http://www.vasamuseet.se/ >Welcome To Stockholm, Sweden >And The Vasa Museum this Summer >Regards Putte >– >            _\|//_ >            (‘ . . ‘)

Response:

>>40 years ago: Raising the Vasa! >On 24 April 1961 the mighty warship >Mighty warship?  It sunk the first time they tried to sail it!  It >never saw any service at all, did it?

A harbinger of Swedish neutrality. PB

Response:

>> >And The Vasa Museum this Summer > Let me recommend a visit. We saw it last summer and found it extremely > interesting and impressive. > Like the Bismark it failed to complete its maiden voyage. > Michael Forrest >Are you sure it was a failure ?  After all Vasa is the sole survivor

Maybe someone will raise the Bismark some day and then there will be two. (smiley). — Michael Forrest

Response:

> >40 years ago: Raising the Vasa! >On 24 April 1961 the mighty warship > Mighty warship?  It sunk the first time they tried to sail it!  It > never saw any service at all, did it?

Oh Petya. 25 million visitors so far !  Do you think they are all wrong ? It’s the best purpose built tourist trap in the world.        L.P

Response:

> Maybe someone will raise the Bismark some day and then there will be > two. (smiley).

I think her fate was just because some people out there didn’t like her shape ? RAF could have been more careful     L.P

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->40 years ago: Raising the Vasa! >On 24 April 1961 the mighty warship >Vasa once again saw the light of day >after 333 years on the seabed. >Please click on the Link to read more about the anniversary! >http://www.vasamuseet.se/ >Welcome To Stockholm, Sweden >And The Vasa Museum this Summer >Let me recommend a visit. We saw it last summer and found it extremely >interesting and impressive.

The Vasa is written up somewhere on the web (I don’t have the location to hand right now) as a case study in the management of innovation. There are remarkably strong parallels between the problems which affected the design and implementation of the Vasa, and those which are seen in information systems now.  For instance the king of Sweden (the client? the line manager?) had committed an excessive proportion of the country’s wealth to one, risky, project.  There was a very expert designer (a consultant?) who was involved at the start but was off the scene well before the project was completed.  There were tests where the results were ignored when they suggested outcomes which didn’t suit the management.  And so on. Martin — City University Business School,  London, UK Fax   (020) 7040 8628    http://www.city.ac.uk/martin

Response:

>>>40 years ago: Raising the Vasa! >>On 24 April 1961 the mighty warship >Mighty warship?  It sunk the first time they tried to sail it!  It >never saw any service at all, did it? >A harbinger of Swedish neutrality.

   Sweden was far from neutral during the 17th century, how    improbable it might seem today, it was a European power deeply    involved in European wars of the time. The 17th century is called   the Great Power period in Swedish history.   One ship that saw service was "Kronan" (the Crown) which exploded   (just like Hood!) off Oland in battle. It was the flagship of the   Swedish Navy. 800 sailors and soldiers perished.   If you happen to visit the "Glass Kingdom" in Smaland – the Kronan  exhibitions in Kalmar is not far away.   Kronan website:   http://www.kalmarlansmuseum.se/kronan/english/  MW, Sthlm, SE – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->PB

Response:

>> Maybe someone will raise the Bismark some day and then there will be > two. (smiley). >I think her fate was just because some people out there didn’t like her >shape ? >RAF could have been more careful

They also didn’t like it that she had just sunk HMS Hood (a battle cruiser). And I may be wrong but I think it was the Fleet Air Arm (effectively the naval air force) and not the RAF that put paid to it. (These military people are sticklers for their demarcation disputes – (smiley)) — Michael Forrest

Response:

>The Vasa is written up somewhere on the web (I don’t have the location >to hand right now) as a case study in the management of innovation. >There are remarkably strong parallels between the problems which >affected the design and implementation of the Vasa, and those which >are seen in information systems now.  For instance the king of Sweden >(the client? the line manager?) had committed an excessive proportion >of the country’s wealth to one, risky, project.  There was a very >expert designer (a consultant?) who was involved at the start but was >off the scene well before the project was completed.  There were tests >where the results were ignored when they suggested outcomes which >didn’t suit the management.  And so on.

You are just too right for comfort. — Michael Forrest

Response:

Hi Doug, I have a 2000 328Ci and may be interested in the Star-Tac and the car kit.  Is the Star-Tac phone a Verizon, AT&T, or Sprint model.  I currently have Sprint (Samsung 3500)  and would like to keep my number and service.  Ironic that you’re going to the Kyocera QCP-6035 since I’m considering doing the same thing (and giving my SCH-3500 to my wife). ** Jeff ** > I have a BMW branded Motorola Star-Tac phone. It is compatible with the E46 > 3 series, and many other recent models. It will enable the steering wheel > buttons to activate the phone. I have the factory install kit for an E46, > never used. I also have a cigarette lighter power cord, a separate charger > and spare battery, a data cable and software, as well as all the original > accessories (a belt holster, the travel charger, and instruction manuals for > handheld and car installed use) > I am switching to the Kyocera phone/palm pilot combination,  and so don’t > need this anymore. It is about 5 months old, and is working fine. I have > about a grand invested in the whole package, and would consider $500.

–       London Management Services, Inc.     20 Gibson Place, Freehold, NJ  07728          www.LondonManagement.com    732-294-1492 Voice   732-294-1554 FAX ** Accounting System Consultants & Integrators **   Authorized MAS90, BusinessWorks, Sage Products **  Legal Technology Consultants & Advisors **   TimeSlips, TABS, TimeMatters, Amicus, etc.

Response:

I have a BMW branded Motorola Star-Tac phone. It is compatible with the E46 3 series, and many other recent models. It will enable the steering wheel buttons to activate the phone. I have the factory install kit for an E46, never used. I also have a cigarette lighter power cord, a separate charger and spare battery, a data cable and software, as well as all the original accessories (a belt holster, the travel charger, and instruction manuals for handheld and car installed use) I am switching to the Kyocera phone/palm pilot combination,  and so don’t need this anymore. It is about 5 months old, and is working fine. I have about a grand invested in the whole package, and would consider $500.

Response: