Business History Books » Business Development Consultant » Renissance Cruise Line
Renissance Cruise Line
Question:
Has anyone heard anyting regarding the possible return of renissance Cruises? TIA —–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–== Over 80,000 Newsgroups – 16 Different Servers! =—–
Response:
>Has anyone heard anyting regarding the possible return of renissance >Cruises?
Hi, Yes and there will be NO return of Renaissance Cruise Lines. But if you would like to cash some of their rubber checks for me, let me know. <:+( Best regards, Ray LIGHTHOUSE TRAVEL 800-719-9917 or 805-566-3905 http://www.lighthousetravel.com
Response:
> But if >you would like to cash some of their rubber checks for me, let me >know. <:+(
Be patient … after all the secured creditors are paid you should get about 0.03 on the dollar … I have heard of only one of their ships sold they still have lots to liquidate … A pity too because I was set to take their Rome-Istanbul cruise … I had heard all great things about it .. In the Village …. I am not a number … I am a free man !!!!
Response:
>Be patient … after all the secured creditors are paid you should get about >0.03 on the dollar …
Hi, They owe much more than they can ever pay. I will not even see 3 cents on the dollar. Not enough for a cup of coffee (at least in Santa Barbara). <g> Best regards, Ray LIGHTHOUSE TRAVEL 800-719-9917 or 805-566-3905 http://www.lighthousetravel.com
Response:
> Yes and there will be NO return of Renaissance Cruise Lines. But if > you would like to cash some of their rubber checks for me, let me > know. <:+( > Best regards, > Ray
I thought you refused to SELL Ren cruises, so why would have have bounced checks from them? You were one of Ren’s biggest detractors, comparing them to the devil for selling direct. Oh wait! Don’t tell me that after all the the abuse you heaped on them over the years, you actually began selling their cruises when they made nice with the travel agent community. Here I thought you had higher standards! You just sold out for the higher than average COMMISSIONS they were offering. How typical! I guess we should all feel badly for you, putting in all that time and effort to SELL your customers Ren cruises and then NOT getting paid your commissions. Boo Hoo! Chuck…..
Response:
Kind of interesting isn’t it. Ray bad mouthed Renaissance in this newsgroup every chance he got when the line only booking direct with passengers. One of his biggest criticisms was their financial stability. Then Renaissance started paying hefty Travel agent commissions and Ray booked them as fast and as often as he could. How fast his tune changed. Now, that they went under, he cries to us about it. Why’d he start booking them and jeopardizing the interests of the passengers even as Renaissance’s financial situation continued to deteriorate? Think maybe Ray was more interested in the fat 15% commissions that the welfare of the traveling public? Just goes to show what these parasites are really about!
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Has anyone heard anyting regarding the possible return of renissance >Cruises? > Hi, > Yes and there will be NO return of Renaissance Cruise Lines. But if > you would like to cash some of their rubber checks for me, let me > know. <:+( > Best regards, > Ray > LIGHTHOUSE TRAVEL > 800-719-9917 or 805-566-3905 > http://www.lighthousetravel.com
Response:
I don’t think you are being fair to Ray. I booked my Renaissance Cruise through Ray and he actually tried to talk me out of it in favor of other alternatives. In the end we agreed that the Renaissnace Tahiti cruise was the best fit for me and he did a great job of booking the cruise and then sorting our some problems I had with cruise insurance. And he certainly didn’t make any extra money there. I’ve continued to use as my Cruise Agent. It was a fantastic cruise, best I’ve been on. I wish Renassance were still around. Ray, I and lots of other cruisers and travel agents would be much happier. I’m even holding out hope for the rumor that somehow they will bring back the R3/R4 in Tahiti…
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Kind of interesting isn’t it. > Ray bad mouthed Renaissance in this newsgroup every chance he got when the > line only booking direct with passengers. One of his biggest criticisms was > their financial stability. > Then Renaissance started paying hefty Travel agent commissions and Ray > booked them as fast and as often as he could. How fast his tune changed. > Now, that they went under, he cries to us about it. > Why’d he start booking them and jeopardizing the interests of the passengers > even as Renaissance’s financial situation continued to deteriorate? Think > maybe Ray was more interested in the fat 15% commissions that the welfare of > the traveling public? > Just goes to show what these parasites are really about! > >Has anyone heard anyting regarding the possible return of renissance > >Cruises? > Hi, > Yes and there will be NO return of Renaissance Cruise Lines. But if > you would like to cash some of their rubber checks for me, let me > know. <:+( > Best regards, > Ray > LIGHTHOUSE TRAVEL > 800-719-9917 or 805-566-3905 > http://www.lighthousetravel.com
Response:
Dean, I too miss Renaissance. My family sailed them several times in Europe, Africa, the Far East and of course the R3 to French Polynesia. Renaissance was innovative in many ways and a tremendous value. Although the experience was only about 1/3 as good as our Seabourn or Silversea cruses, we paid only 15% of the Seabourn/Silversea cost. One of the reasons Renaissance failed (albeit not the principal reason) was the slander campaign launched against them by Travel Agents such as Ray. Day in and day out we heard nothing but criticism and negative tirades about Renaissance on this newsgroup and that reputable Travel Agents would NEVER book Renaissance. Then Renaissance started paying hefty commissions and virtually every Travel Agent (including Ray) jumped on the Renaissance bandwagon. You are not the only one he booked. I’m sorry Dean, but in my view if one is a principled professional service provider, there are times that ya gotta look past the commission and say no. Clients infrequently ask me to perform services that, in my professional opinion, run contrary to their better interests, or are against my own standard of quality, professional integrity or ethics. If they persist, I respectfully inform them that I will not accede to their demands and that they should find someone else. I do this even though it means I will forfeit my fee and may permanently loose the client. But you’re either a professional or you’re not. If a true service professional believed half of what Ray espoused on this site about Renaissance, he would have refused to book you on Renaissance under any circumstances. Oops, there I go again using "quality, professional integrity and ethics" in the same message in which I talk about Cruise Travel Agents — some day I’ll learn Good luck Paul
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I don’t think you are being fair to Ray. I booked my Renaissance Cruise > through Ray and he actually tried to talk me out of it in favor of other > alternatives. In the end we agreed that the Renaissnace Tahiti cruise was > the best fit for me and he did a great job of booking the cruise and then > sorting our some problems I had with cruise insurance. And he certainly > didn’t make any extra money there. I’ve continued to use as my Cruise > Agent. > It was a fantastic cruise, best I’ve been on. I wish Renassance were still > around. Ray, I and lots of other cruisers and travel agents would be much > happier. I’m even holding out hope for the rumor that somehow they will > bring back the R3/R4 in Tahiti… > Kind of interesting isn’t it. > Ray bad mouthed Renaissance in this newsgroup every chance he got when the > line only booking direct with passengers. One of his biggest criticisms > was > their financial stability. > Then Renaissance started paying hefty Travel agent commissions and Ray > booked them as fast and as often as he could. How fast his tune changed. > Now, that they went under, he cries to us about it. > Why’d he start booking them and jeopardizing the interests of the > passengers > even as Renaissance’s financial situation continued to deteriorate? Think > maybe Ray was more interested in the fat 15% commissions that the welfare > of > the traveling public? > Just goes to show what these parasites are really about! > > >Has anyone heard anyting regarding the possible return of renissance > > >Cruises? > > Hi, > > Yes and there will be NO return of Renaissance Cruise Lines. But if > > you would like to cash some of their rubber checks for me, let me > > know. <:+( > > Best regards, > > Ray > > LIGHTHOUSE TRAVEL > > 800-719-9917 or 805-566-3905 > > http://www.lighthousetravel.com
Response:
>If a true service professional believed half of what Ray espoused on this >site about Renaissance, he would have refused to book you on Renaissance >under any circumstances.
Hi Everyone, I know most on this news group knows about Slinsky’s baseless tirades regarding travel agents. Just to correct his false and misleading statements, I did refuse to book Ren until they changed their anti-consumer policies. When clients approached me, I did refuse to take the bookings. When Ren changed their anti-consumer policies, I did book my clients after warning them of the financial situation at Ren. I made sure my clients had 3rd party insurance protection in case of Ren’s demise. If they were not willing to take the insurance, I would not take the bookings. Due to my consortium affiliations my commission structure never changed with Ren from the beginning to the end. Best regards, Ray LIGHTHOUSE TRAVEL 800-719-9917 or 805-566-3905 http://www.lighthousetravel.com
Response:
>I know most on this news group knows about Slinsky’s baseless tirades >regarding travel agents.
I too am not a TA fan … but I will agree his tirades are uncalled for … TA’s are fine for most people and often for just a little more you get a lot of service … I have been to TA’s to make arrangements and they can do it ok … but I have found few who will do a lot of searching to save money for one who is flexible …Once I was told the minimum price was $X and I found $X less 35% myself in about 5 minutes … Occasionally you will find a bad TA like a bad waitress or bad accountant or ethical lawyer …But one should not demonize the entire profession for a bad actor or two … In the Village …. I am not a number … I am a free man !!!!
Response:
Dear Ray, 1. Thank you for misspelling my name, it reaffirms my opinion of the quality of your work and your attention to detail. 2. As to your response, nice try. You completely ignored the essence of my post — i.e. much of your Renaissance criticism was directed at their financial stability. You instead try to redirect the discussion to Renaissance’s change in "anti-consumer policies" . The truth is Ray that Renaissance’s financial stability continued to dramatically deteriorate after they changed their policies and you knew it. Yet, once they started paying Travel Agent commissions, you significantly curtailed your Renaissance attacks on this newsgroup and booked them. My position remains unchanged, professionals wouldn’t do that. They would look past their commissions and not jeopardize the well being of clients. That’s why they are professionals. You failed to fulfill this obligation to your clients. As a direct result you booking travelers on Renaissance many people’s lives were inconvenienced and some may never recover the lost opportunity. Another trait of a professional is accepting accountability for their actions good and bad. They don’t try to weasel word their way out of it. Paul
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->If a true service professional believed half of what Ray espoused on this >site about Renaissance, he would have refused to book you on Renaissance >under any circumstances. > Hi Everyone, > I know most on this news group knows about Slinsky’s baseless tirades > regarding travel agents. Just to correct his false and misleading > statements, I did refuse to book Ren until they changed their > anti-consumer policies. When clients approached me, I did refuse to > take the bookings. When Ren changed their anti-consumer policies, I > did book my clients after warning them of the financial situation at > Ren. I made sure my clients had 3rd party insurance protection in > case of Ren’s demise. If they were not willing to take the insurance, > I would not take the bookings. Due to my consortium affiliations my > commission structure never changed with Ren from the beginning to the > end. > Best regards, > Ray > LIGHTHOUSE TRAVEL > 800-719-9917 or 805-566-3905 > http://www.lighthousetravel.com
Response:
> 2. As to your response, nice try. You completely ignored the essence of > my post — i.e. much of your Renaissance criticism was directed at their > financial stability. You instead try to redirect the discussion to > Renaissance’s change in "anti-consumer policies" . The truth is Ray that > Renaissance’s financial stability continued to dramatically deteriorate > after they changed their policies and you knew it. Yet, once they started > paying Travel Agent commissions, you significantly curtailed your > Renaissance attacks on this newsgroup and booked them.
Sorry Paul, but you are wrong. Even after they started paying commissions, Ray invariably recommended that people take out travel insurance and would not book Renaissance without it. I remember he would always chime in on this subject if someone talked about Renaissance cruises. Always noted that they might be having financial trouble. He warned people of the risks, and after warning them, if they insisted, he treated them like adults and let them take the risk with their time and convenience (which he was not able to quantify) but not with their mone (which he was) I don’t believe people lost money if they booked with Ray. Ray did, but his clients did not. Your statement is just incorrect. Ray, he is really not worth responding to. Julie
Response:
Paul(BOTW): You say that you have clients, etc. ? What is your profession, if we may respectfully ask? Angelica
Response:
His profession is troll! I’m not sure what it pays. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Paul(BOTW): > You say that you have clients, etc. ? What is your profession, if we may > respectfully ask? > Angelica
Response:
Juliana You just can’t throw up your hands and say "well I warned them, I tried". A true professional would say politely, "I’m sorry, but I will not book you on that cruse line". I never said any of Ray’s clients lost money. To Ray’s credit, he did his best to ensure that his clients were covered with cruise protection insurance. Although they didn’t loose money, many were severely inconvenienced and some irreparably so. As for Ray loosing money. He made a bad business decision. Now he and his clients are paying the price for his bad judgment. What I don’t understand is why Ray’s business insurance does not cover him against supplier non-performance, almost all decent professional service policies do (mine certainly does). Unless his insurance company is tying this to 9/11 and calling it a "Force Majure" event, he should be O.K. Paul – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> 2. As to your response, nice try. You completely ignored the essence of > my post — i.e. much of your Renaissance criticism was directed at their > financial stability. You instead try to redirect the discussion to > Renaissance’s change in "anti-consumer policies" . The truth is Ray that > Renaissance’s financial stability continued to dramatically deteriorate > after they changed their policies and you knew it. Yet, once they started > paying Travel Agent commissions, you significantly curtailed your > Renaissance attacks on this newsgroup and booked them. > Sorry Paul, but you are wrong. Even after they started paying commissions, > Ray invariably recommended that people take out travel insurance and would > not book Renaissance without it. I remember he would always chime in on this > subject if someone talked about Renaissance cruises. Always noted that they > might be having financial trouble. > He warned people of the risks, and after warning them, if they insisted, > he treated them like adults and let them take the risk with their time and > convenience (which he was not able to quantify) but not with their mone > (which he was) > I don’t believe people lost money if they booked with Ray. Ray did, but his > clients did not. > Your statement is just incorrect. > Ray, he is really not worth responding to. > Julie
Response:
I am a semi-retired business development consultant for the aerospace industry
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Paul(BOTW): > You say that you have clients, etc. ? What is your profession, if we may > respectfully ask? > Angelica
Response:
Oh! I thought it was the back end of a horse. June
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> His profession is troll! I’m not sure what it pays. > Paul(BOTW): > You say that you have clients, etc. ? What is your profession, if we may > respectfully ask? > Angelica
Response:
> You just can’t throw up your hands and say "well I warned them, I tried". A > true professional would say politely, "I’m sorry, but I will not book you on > that cruse line".
I’m sorry, I disagree. Ray’s clients are adults, and they are capable of assessing risk for themselves. And what is major inconvenience to one client might be minor inconvenience to another. For myself, if I was booked on a cruise and it was cancelled, I would be able to pretty easily realign my vacation to cruise at another time. For others this would be a significant problem. If the cruise was one I really would like to go on (like, for example, French Polynesia) I might take that chance, knowingly. For another individual, they might be stuck with a vacation week and unable to go on a dream vacation; for them the risk would be too high. It is clear from another poster, that Ray only booked Rennaissance after a significant discussion with the traveller to discuss this kind of thing. He treated the client like an adult who is able to make their own decision. I also work as a consultant, and if I tried to tell my clients that I would not do something because I thought they should not take that level of risk, I’d be out on a rail, of almost any company. We inform them of risk if we see it, we document it, and then we accept the decisions that they make. That is professional behavior. Not parenting the client, but respecting them and giving them full in formation but letting them decide Julie
Response:
Julie, We’ve beat poor Ray to death. Let’s just say we disagree on what a professional consultant’s responsibilities are. Now that I see your approach to consulting I understand why. To me, you’re more like a subcontractor that a consultant. You advise then do what your told regardless or the consequences. Unlike you, I find most clients are grateful that I won’t work or accept a fee for efforts that I am convinced ran contrary to their interests or clash with my professional standards (conflict of interest, ethics, quality, etc.). I believe this enhances my professional reputation instead of "being out on a rail". Of course if I’m informed that there are undisclosed strategic issues involved (often happens), then that’s a different story. I guess we have a differing standards. You’ll do anything anyone tells you for money and I won’t. But that’s what makes the world go round isn’t it. Paul BTW: Are you at George Mason? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> You just can’t throw up your hands and say "well I warned them, I tried". A > true professional would say politely, "I’m sorry, but I will not book you on > that cruse line". > I’m sorry, I disagree. Ray’s clients are adults, and they are capable of > assessing risk for themselves. And what is major inconvenience to one > client might be minor inconvenience to another. For myself, if I was > booked on a cruise and it was cancelled, I would be able to pretty easily > realign my vacation to cruise at another time. For others this would be > a significant problem. If the cruise was one I really would like to go on > (like, for example, French Polynesia) I might take that chance, knowingly. > For another individual, they might be stuck with a vacation week and unable to > go on a dream vacation; for them the risk would be too high. > It is clear from another poster, that Ray only booked Rennaissance after a > significant discussion with the traveller to discuss this kind of thing. He > treated the client like an adult who is able to make their own decision. > I also work as a consultant, and if I tried to tell my clients that I would > not do something because I thought they should not take that level of risk, > I’d be out on a rail, of almost any company. We inform them of risk if we > see it, we document it, and then we accept the decisions that they make. > That is professional behavior. Not parenting the client, but respecting > them and giving them full in formation but letting them decide > Julie
Response:
> I guess we have a differing standards. You’ll do anything anyone tells you > for money and I won’t. But that’s what makes the world go round isn’t it.
Not exactly. But once I have contracted to do something, I do let the client make the key decisions. I would not do something illegal, unethical, or truly suicidal. But all decisions involve some level of risk, from the most minimal to truly overwhelming. The vast majority of risk is well in the middle of those two extremes. In that central range I let my clients, who know the business best, determine what risks are acceptable and which are not. They know their business, their goals, and their feelings best. > BTW: Are you at George Mason?
Not really. I volunteer time to create a web page for United Campus Ministries of Northern Virginia, and GMU used to give them space on computers, so I have an account there. I mostly use it for reading e-mail via tin right now, since we are in the process of moving the web page to a different location. I am, however, GMU alumni twice over. (BA English 1986m MS Information Systems 1997). Julie – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > You just can’t throw up your hands and say "well I warned them, I > tried". A > > true professional would say politely, "I’m sorry, but I will not book > you on > > that cruse line". > I’m sorry, I disagree. Ray’s clients are adults, and they are capable of > assessing risk for themselves. And what is major inconvenience to one > client might be minor inconvenience to another. For myself, if I was > booked on a cruise and it was cancelled, I would be able to pretty easily > realign my vacation to cruise at another time. For others this would be > a significant problem. If the cruise was one I really would like to go on > (like, for example, French Polynesia) I might take that chance, knowingly. > For another individual, they might be stuck with a vacation week and > unable to > go on a dream vacation; for them the risk would be too high. > It is clear from another poster, that Ray only booked Rennaissance after a > significant discussion with the traveller to discuss this kind of thing. > He > treated the client like an adult who is able to make their own decision. > I also work as a consultant, and if I tried to tell my clients that I > would > not do something because I thought they should not take that level of > risk, > I’d be out on a rail, of almost any company. We inform them of risk if we > see it, we document it, and then we accept the decisions that they make. > That is professional behavior. Not parenting the client, but respecting > them and giving them full in formation but letting them decide > Julie
Response:
> > I guess we have a differing standards. You’ll do anything anyone tells you > for money and I won’t. But that’s what makes the world go round isn’t it. > Not exactly. But once I have contracted to do something, I do let the client > make the key decisions. I would not do something illegal, unethical, or > truly suicidal. But all decisions involve some level of risk, from the most > minimal to truly overwhelming. The vast majority of risk is well in the middle > of those two extremes. In that central range I let my clients, who know the > business best, determine what risks are acceptable and which are not. They > know their business, their goals, and their feelings best. > Julie
This presents yet another question when it comes to "professional travel agents". Just WHO is their "client"? Since their income is derived from the CRUISE LINE (Ray claims that he is paid his commission from the cruise line and NOT the "client"), isn’t he (they) actually working for the CRUISE LINE? Sine there is no exchange of "consideration" between the client and the T/A, no legal contract exists (remember, the money the client pays the T/A goes DIRECTLY to the cruiseline, according to Ray). So, without "consideration", how can a legally binding contract exist between T/A and client? Cruise line and client have a contract. T/A and cruise line have a contract. But T/A and client? Makes one go Hmmmmmmmmmmm……. Chuck Want to save some money on your next cruise? Check out: www.cruisequick.com
Response:
> This presents yet another question when it comes to "professional travel > agents". > Just WHO is their "client"? > So, without "consideration", how can a legally binding contract exist > between T/A and client? Cruise line and client have a contract. T/A > and cruise line have a contract. But T/A and client? > Makes one go Hmmmmmmmmmmm……. > Want to save some money on your next cruise? Check out: > www.cruisequick.com
Chuck, Who is the client of cruisequick? Who pays them???? And wonder if this e-mail isn’t just a teeny tiny bit hypocritical? Julie Julie
Response:
What does any of this have to do with Renaissance Cruise Line? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> This presents yet another question when it comes to "professional travel > agents". > Just WHO is their "client"? > So, without "consideration", how can a legally binding contract exist > between T/A and client? Cruise line and client have a contract. T/A > and cruise line have a contract. But T/A and client? > Makes one go Hmmmmmmmmmmm……. > Want to save some money on your next cruise? Check out: > www.cruisequick.com >Chuck, >Who is the client of cruisequick? Who pays them???? >And wonder if this e-mail isn’t just a teeny tiny bit hypocritical? >Julie >Julie
Response:
>This presents yet another question when it comes to "professional travel >agents". >Just WHO is their "client"?
The client is "the booking" or the deal … All are happy when the deal works out … The cruise line – happy just to have a cabin sold … The TA – happy to have made the deal … and the customer – happy to be going on a vacation he wants … Most times it takes very little to make the cruiseline and the TA happy … the customer is the one with the most requirements (AND RIGHTLY SO) to be happy thereby making the DEAL a success … In the Village …. I am not a number … I am a free man !!!!
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Julie, > We’ve beat poor Ray to death. Let’s just say we disagree on what a > professional consultant’s responsibilities are. Now that I see your > approach to consulting I understand why. To me, you’re more like a > subcontractor that a consultant. You advise then do what your told > regardless or the consequences. > Unlike you, I find most clients are grateful that I won’t work or accept a > fee for efforts that I am convinced ran contrary to their interests or clash > with my professional standards (conflict of interest, ethics, quality, > etc.). I believe this enhances my professional reputation instead of "being > out on a rail". Of course if I’m informed that there are undisclosed > strategic issues involved (often happens), then that’s a different story. > I guess we have a differing standards. You’ll do anything anyone tells you > for money and I won’t. But that’s what makes the world go round isn’t it. > Paul
But then, I don’t believe Julie is a washed up Beltway bandit that no one wants to hire like you are, is she? Semi-retired is a euphonysm around here for umemployable. Diane – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> BTW: Are you at George Mason? > > You just can’t throw up your hands and say "well I warned them, I > tried". A > > true professional would say politely, "I’m sorry, but I will not book > you on > > that cruse line". > I’m sorry, I disagree. Ray’s clients are adults, and they are capable of > assessing risk for themselves. And what is major inconvenience to one > client might be minor inconvenience to another. For myself, if I was > booked on a cruise and it was cancelled, I would be able to pretty easily > realign my vacation to cruise at another time. For others this would be > a significant problem. If the cruise was one I really would like to go on > (like, for example, French Polynesia) I might take that chance, knowingly. > For another individual, they might be stuck with a vacation week and > unable to > go on a dream vacation; for them the risk would be too high. > It is clear from another poster, that Ray only booked Rennaissance after a > significant discussion with the traveller to discuss this kind of thing. > He > treated the client like an adult who is able to make their own decision. > I also work as a consultant, and if I tried to tell my clients that I > would > not do something because I thought they should not take that level of > risk, > I’d be out on a rail, of almost any company. We inform them of risk if we > see it, we document it, and then we accept the decisions that they make. > That is professional behavior. Not parenting the client, but respecting > them and giving them full in formation but letting them decide > Julie
Response:
Has anyone heard anyting regarding the possible return of renissance Cruises? TIA —–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–== Over 80,000 Newsgroups – 16 Different Servers! =—–
Response:
>Has anyone heard anyting regarding the possible return of renissance >Cruises?
Hi, Yes and there will be NO return of Renaissance Cruise Lines. But if you would like to cash some of their rubber checks for me, let me know. <:+( Best regards, Ray LIGHTHOUSE TRAVEL 800-719-9917 or 805-566-3905 http://www.lighthousetravel.com
Response:
> But if >you would like to cash some of their rubber checks for me, let me >know. <:+(
Be patient … after all the secured creditors are paid you should get about 0.03 on the dollar … I have heard of only one of their ships sold they still have lots to liquidate … A pity too because I was set to take their Rome-Istanbul cruise … I had heard all great things about it .. In the Village …. I am not a number … I am a free man !!!!
Response:
>Be patient … after all the secured creditors are paid you should get about >0.03 on the dollar …
Hi, They owe much more than they can ever pay. I will not even see 3 cents on the dollar. Not enough for a cup of coffee (at least in Santa Barbara). <g> Best regards, Ray LIGHTHOUSE TRAVEL 800-719-9917 or 805-566-3905 http://www.lighthousetravel.com
Response:
> Yes and there will be NO return of Renaissance Cruise Lines. But if > you would like to cash some of their rubber checks for me, let me > know. <:+( > Best regards, > Ray
I thought you refused to SELL Ren cruises, so why would have have bounced checks from them? You were one of Ren’s biggest detractors, comparing them to the devil for selling direct. Oh wait! Don’t tell me that after all the the abuse you heaped on them over the years, you actually began selling their cruises when they made nice with the travel agent community. Here I thought you had higher standards! You just sold out for the higher than average COMMISSIONS they were offering. How typical! I guess we should all feel badly for you, putting in all that time and effort to SELL your customers Ren cruises and then NOT getting paid your commissions. Boo Hoo! Chuck…..
Response:
Kind of interesting isn’t it. Ray bad mouthed Renaissance in this newsgroup every chance he got when the line only booking direct with passengers. One of his biggest criticisms was their financial stability. Then Renaissance started paying hefty Travel agent commissions and Ray booked them as fast and as often as he could. How fast his tune changed. Now, that they went under, he cries to us about it. Why’d he start booking them and jeopardizing the interests of the passengers even as Renaissance’s financial situation continued to deteriorate? Think maybe Ray was more interested in the fat 15% commissions that the welfare of the traveling public? Just goes to show what these parasites are really about!
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Has anyone heard anyting regarding the possible return of renissance >Cruises? > Hi, > Yes and there will be NO return of Renaissance Cruise Lines. But if > you would like to cash some of their rubber checks for me, let me > know. <:+( > Best regards, > Ray > LIGHTHOUSE TRAVEL > 800-719-9917 or 805-566-3905 > http://www.lighthousetravel.com
Response:
I don’t think you are being fair to Ray. I booked my Renaissance Cruise through Ray and he actually tried to talk me out of it in favor of other alternatives. In the end we agreed that the Renaissnace Tahiti cruise was the best fit for me and he did a great job of booking the cruise and then sorting our some problems I had with cruise insurance. And he certainly didn’t make any extra money there. I’ve continued to use as my Cruise Agent. It was a fantastic cruise, best I’ve been on. I wish Renassance were still around. Ray, I and lots of other cruisers and travel agents would be much happier. I’m even holding out hope for the rumor that somehow they will bring back the R3/R4 in Tahiti…
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Kind of interesting isn’t it. > Ray bad mouthed Renaissance in this newsgroup every chance he got when the > line only booking direct with passengers. One of his biggest criticisms was > their financial stability. > Then Renaissance started paying hefty Travel agent commissions and Ray > booked them as fast and as often as he could. How fast his tune changed. > Now, that they went under, he cries to us about it. > Why’d he start booking them and jeopardizing the interests of the passengers > even as Renaissance’s financial situation continued to deteriorate? Think > maybe Ray was more interested in the fat 15% commissions that the welfare of > the traveling public? > Just goes to show what these parasites are really about! > >Has anyone heard anyting regarding the possible return of renissance > >Cruises? > Hi, > Yes and there will be NO return of Renaissance Cruise Lines. But if > you would like to cash some of their rubber checks for me, let me > know. <:+( > Best regards, > Ray > LIGHTHOUSE TRAVEL > 800-719-9917 or 805-566-3905 > http://www.lighthousetravel.com
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Dean, I too miss Renaissance. My family sailed them several times in Europe, Africa, the Far East and of course the R3 to French Polynesia. Renaissance was innovative in many ways and a tremendous value. Although the experience was only about 1/3 as good as our Seabourn or Silversea cruses, we paid only 15% of the Seabourn/Silversea cost. One of the reasons Renaissance failed (albeit not the principal reason) was the slander campaign launched against them by Travel Agents such as Ray. Day in and day out we heard nothing but criticism and negative tirades about Renaissance on this newsgroup and that reputable Travel Agents would NEVER book Renaissance. Then Renaissance started paying hefty commissions and virtually every Travel Agent (including Ray) jumped on the Renaissance bandwagon. You are not the only one he booked. I’m sorry Dean, but in my view if one is a principled professional service provider, there are times that ya gotta look past the commission and say no. Clients infrequently ask me to perform services that, in my professional opinion, run contrary to their better interests, or are against my own standard of quality, professional integrity or ethics. If they persist, I respectfully inform them that I will not accede to their demands and that they should find someone else. I do this even though it means I will forfeit my fee and may permanently loose the client. But you’re either a professional or you’re not. If a true service professional believed half of what Ray espoused on this site about Renaissance, he would have refused to book you on Renaissance under any circumstances. Oops, there I go again using "quality, professional integrity and ethics" in the same message in which I talk about Cruise Travel Agents — some day I’ll learn Good luck Paul
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I don’t think you are being fair to Ray. I booked my Renaissance Cruise > through Ray and he actually tried to talk me out of it in favor of other > alternatives. In the end we agreed that the Renaissnace Tahiti cruise was > the best fit for me and he did a great job of booking the cruise and then > sorting our some problems I had with cruise insurance. And he certainly > didn’t make any extra money there. I’ve continued to use as my Cruise > Agent. > It was a fantastic cruise, best I’ve been on. I wish Renassance were still > around. Ray, I and lots of other cruisers and travel agents would be much > happier. I’m even holding out hope for the rumor that somehow they will > bring back the R3/R4 in Tahiti… > Kind of interesting isn’t it. > Ray bad mouthed Renaissance in this newsgroup every chance he got when the > line only booking direct with passengers. One of his biggest criticisms > was > their financial stability. > Then Renaissance started paying hefty Travel agent commissions and Ray > booked them as fast and as often as he could. How fast his tune changed. > Now, that they went under, he cries to us about it. > Why’d he start booking them and jeopardizing the interests of the > passengers > even as Renaissance’s financial situation continued to deteriorate? Think > maybe Ray was more interested in the fat 15% commissions that the welfare > of > the traveling public? > Just goes to show what these parasites are really about! > > >Has anyone heard anyting regarding the possible return of renissance > > >Cruises? > > Hi, > > Yes and there will be NO return of Renaissance Cruise Lines. But if > > you would like to cash some of their rubber checks for me, let me > > know. <:+( > > Best regards, > > Ray > > LIGHTHOUSE TRAVEL > > 800-719-9917 or 805-566-3905 > > http://www.lighthousetravel.com
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>If a true service professional believed half of what Ray espoused on this >site about Renaissance, he would have refused to book you on Renaissance >under any circumstances.
Hi Everyone, I know most on this news group knows about Slinsky’s baseless tirades regarding travel agents. Just to correct his false and misleading statements, I did refuse to book Ren until they changed their anti-consumer policies. When clients approached me, I did refuse to take the bookings. When Ren changed their anti-consumer policies, I did book my clients after warning them of the financial situation at Ren. I made sure my clients had 3rd party insurance protection in case of Ren’s demise. If they were not willing to take the insurance, I would not take the bookings. Due to my consortium affiliations my commission structure never changed with Ren from the beginning to the end. Best regards, Ray LIGHTHOUSE TRAVEL 800-719-9917 or 805-566-3905 http://www.lighthousetravel.com
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>I know most on this news group knows about Slinsky’s baseless tirades >regarding travel agents.
I too am not a TA fan … but I will agree his tirades are uncalled for … TA’s are fine for most people and often for just a little more you get a lot of service … I have been to TA’s to make arrangements and they can do it ok … but I have found few who will do a lot of searching to save money for one who is flexible …Once I was told the minimum price was $X and I found $X less 35% myself in about 5 minutes … Occasionally you will find a bad TA like a bad waitress or bad accountant or ethical lawyer …But one should not demonize the entire profession for a bad actor or two … In the Village …. I am not a number … I am a free man !!!!
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Dear Ray, 1. Thank you for misspelling my name, it reaffirms my opinion of the quality of your work and your attention to detail. 2. As to your response, nice try. You completely ignored the essence of my post — i.e. much of your Renaissance criticism was directed at their financial stability. You instead try to redirect the discussion to Renaissance’s change in "anti-consumer policies" . The truth is Ray that Renaissance’s financial stability continued to dramatically deteriorate after they changed their policies and you knew it. Yet, once they started paying Travel Agent commissions, you significantly curtailed your Renaissance attacks on this newsgroup and booked them. My position remains unchanged, professionals wouldn’t do that. They would look past their commissions and not jeopardize the well being of clients. That’s why they are professionals. You failed to fulfill this obligation to your clients. As a direct result you booking travelers on Renaissance many people’s lives were inconvenienced and some may never recover the lost opportunity. Another trait of a professional is accepting accountability for their actions good and bad. They don’t try to weasel word their way out of it. Paul
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->If a true service professional believed half of what Ray espoused on this >site about Renaissance, he would have refused to book you on Renaissance >under any circumstances. > Hi Everyone, > I know most on this news group knows about Slinsky’s baseless tirades > regarding travel agents. Just to correct his false and misleading > statements, I did refuse to book Ren until they changed their > anti-consumer policies. When clients approached me, I did refuse to > take the bookings. When Ren changed their anti-consumer policies, I > did book my clients after warning them of the financial situation at > Ren. I made sure my clients had 3rd party insurance protection in > case of Ren’s demise. If they were not willing to take the insurance, > I would not take the bookings. Due to my consortium affiliations my > commission structure never changed with Ren from the beginning to the > end. > Best regards, > Ray > LIGHTHOUSE TRAVEL > 800-719-9917 or 805-566-3905 > http://www.lighthousetravel.com
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> 2. As to your response, nice try. You completely ignored the essence of > my post — i.e. much of your Renaissance criticism was directed at their > financial stability. You instead try to redirect the discussion to > Renaissance’s change in "anti-consumer policies" . The truth is Ray that > Renaissance’s financial stability continued to dramatically deteriorate > after they changed their policies and you knew it. Yet, once they started > paying Travel Agent commissions, you significantly curtailed your > Renaissance attacks on this newsgroup and booked them.
Sorry Paul, but you are wrong. Even after they started paying commissions, Ray invariably recommended that people take out travel insurance and would not book Renaissance without it. I remember he would always chime in on this subject if someone talked about Renaissance cruises. Always noted that they might be having financial trouble. He warned people of the risks, and after warning them, if they insisted, he treated them like adults and let them take the risk with their time and convenience (which he was not able to quantify) but not with their mone (which he was) I don’t believe people lost money if they booked with Ray. Ray did, but his clients did not. Your statement is just incorrect. Ray, he is really not worth responding to. Julie
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Paul(BOTW): You say that you have clients, etc. ? What is your profession, if we may respectfully ask? Angelica
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His profession is troll! I’m not sure what it pays. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Paul(BOTW): > You say that you have clients, etc. ? What is your profession, if we may > respectfully ask? > Angelica
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Juliana You just can’t throw up your hands and say "well I warned them, I tried". A true professional would say politely, "I’m sorry, but I will not book you on that cruse line". I never said any of Ray’s clients lost money. To Ray’s credit, he did his best to ensure that his clients were covered with cruise protection insurance. Although they didn’t loose money, many were severely inconvenienced and some irreparably so. As for Ray loosing money. He made a bad business decision. Now he and his clients are paying the price for his bad judgment. What I don’t understand is why Ray’s business insurance does not cover him against supplier non-performance, almost all decent professional service policies do (mine certainly does). Unless his insurance company is tying this to 9/11 and calling it a "Force Majure" event, he should be O.K. Paul – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> 2. As to your response, nice try. You completely ignored the essence of > my post — i.e. much of your Renaissance criticism was directed at their > financial stability. You instead try to redirect the discussion to > Renaissance’s change in "anti-consumer policies" . The truth is Ray that > Renaissance’s financial stability continued to dramatically deteriorate > after they changed their policies and you knew it. Yet, once they started > paying Travel Agent commissions, you significantly curtailed your > Renaissance attacks on this newsgroup and booked them. > Sorry Paul, but you are wrong. Even after they started paying commissions, > Ray invariably recommended that people take out travel insurance and would > not book Renaissance without it. I remember he would always chime in on this > subject if someone talked about Renaissance cruises. Always noted that they > might be having financial trouble. > He warned people of the risks, and after warning them, if they insisted, > he treated them like adults and let them take the risk with their time and > convenience (which he was not able to quantify) but not with their mone > (which he was) > I don’t believe people lost money if they booked with Ray. Ray did, but his > clients did not. > Your statement is just incorrect. > Ray, he is really not worth responding to. > Julie
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I am a semi-retired business development consultant for the aerospace industry
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Paul(BOTW): > You say that you have clients, etc. ? What is your profession, if we may > respectfully ask? > Angelica
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Oh! I thought it was the back end of a horse. June
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> His profession is troll! I’m not sure what it pays. > Paul(BOTW): > You say that you have clients, etc. ? What is your profession, if we may > respectfully ask? > Angelica
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> You just can’t throw up your hands and say "well I warned them, I tried". A > true professional would say politely, "I’m sorry, but I will not book you on > that cruse line".
I’m sorry, I disagree. Ray’s clients are adults, and they are capable of assessing risk for themselves. And what is major inconvenience to one client might be minor inconvenience to another. For myself, if I was booked on a cruise and it was cancelled, I would be able to pretty easily realign my vacation to cruise at another time. For others this would be a significant problem. If the cruise was one I really would like to go on (like, for example, French Polynesia) I might take that chance, knowingly. For another individual, they might be stuck with a vacation week and unable to go on a dream vacation; for them the risk would be too high. It is clear from another poster, that Ray only booked Rennaissance after a significant discussion with the traveller to discuss this kind of thing. He treated the client like an adult who is able to make their own decision. I also work as a consultant, and if I tried to tell my clients that I would not do something because I thought they should not take that level of risk, I’d be out on a rail, of almost any company. We inform them of risk if we see it, we document it, and then we accept the decisions that they make. That is professional behavior. Not parenting the client, but respecting them and giving them full in formation but letting them decide Julie
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Julie, We’ve beat poor Ray to death. Let’s just say we disagree on what a professional consultant’s responsibilities are. Now that I see your approach to consulting I understand why. To me, you’re more like a subcontractor that a consultant. You advise then do what your told regardless or the consequences. Unlike you, I find most clients are grateful that I won’t work or accept a fee for efforts that I am convinced ran contrary to their interests or clash with my professional standards (conflict of interest, ethics, quality, etc.). I believe this enhances my professional reputation instead of "being out on a rail". Of course if I’m informed that there are undisclosed strategic issues involved (often happens), then that’s a different story. I guess we have a differing standards. You’ll do anything anyone tells you for money and I won’t. But that’s what makes the world go round isn’t it. Paul BTW: Are you at George Mason? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> You just can’t throw up your hands and say "well I warned them, I tried". A > true professional would say politely, "I’m sorry, but I will not book you on > that cruse line". > I’m sorry, I disagree. Ray’s clients are adults, and they are capable of > assessing risk for themselves. And what is major inconvenience to one > client might be minor inconvenience to another. For myself, if I was > booked on a cruise and it was cancelled, I would be able to pretty easily > realign my vacation to cruise at another time. For others this would be > a significant problem. If the cruise was one I really would like to go on > (like, for example, French Polynesia) I might take that chance, knowingly. > For another individual, they might be stuck with a vacation week and unable to > go on a dream vacation; for them the risk would be too high. > It is clear from another poster, that Ray only booked Rennaissance after a > significant discussion with the traveller to discuss this kind of thing. He > treated the client like an adult who is able to make their own decision. > I also work as a consultant, and if I tried to tell my clients that I would > not do something because I thought they should not take that level of risk, > I’d be out on a rail, of almost any company. We inform them of risk if we > see it, we document it, and then we accept the decisions that they make. > That is professional behavior. Not parenting the client, but respecting > them and giving them full in formation but letting them decide > Julie
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> I guess we have a differing standards. You’ll do anything anyone tells you > for money and I won’t. But that’s what makes the world go round isn’t it.
Not exactly. But once I have contracted to do something, I do let the client make the key decisions. I would not do something illegal, unethical, or truly suicidal. But all decisions involve some level of risk, from the most minimal to truly overwhelming. The vast majority of risk is well in the middle of those two extremes. In that central range I let my clients, who know the business best, determine what risks are acceptable and which are not. They know their business, their goals, and their feelings best. > BTW: Are you at George Mason?
Not really. I volunteer time to create a web page for United Campus Ministries of Northern Virginia, and GMU used to give them space on computers, so I have an account there. I mostly use it for reading e-mail via tin right now, since we are in the process of moving the web page to a different location. I am, however, GMU alumni twice over. (BA English 1986m MS Information Systems 1997). Julie – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > You just can’t throw up your hands and say "well I warned them, I > tried". A > > true professional would say politely, "I’m sorry, but I will not book > you on > > that cruse line". > I’m sorry, I disagree. Ray’s clients are adults, and they are capable of > assessing risk for themselves. And what is major inconvenience to one > client might be minor inconvenience to another. For myself, if I was > booked on a cruise and it was cancelled, I would be able to pretty easily > realign my vacation to cruise at another time. For others this would be > a significant problem. If the cruise was one I really would like to go on > (like, for example, French Polynesia) I might take that chance, knowingly. > For another individual, they might be stuck with a vacation week and > unable to > go on a dream vacation; for them the risk would be too high. > It is clear from another poster, that Ray only booked Rennaissance after a > significant discussion with the traveller to discuss this kind of thing. > He > treated the client like an adult who is able to make their own decision. > I also work as a consultant, and if I tried to tell my clients that I > would > not do something because I thought they should not take that level of > risk, > I’d be out on a rail, of almost any company. We inform them of risk if we > see it, we document it, and then we accept the decisions that they make. > That is professional behavior. Not parenting the client, but respecting > them and giving them full in formation but letting them decide > Julie
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> > I guess we have a differing standards. You’ll do anything anyone tells you > for money and I won’t. But that’s what makes the world go round isn’t it. > Not exactly. But once I have contracted to do something, I do let the client > make the key decisions. I would not do something illegal, unethical, or > truly suicidal. But all decisions involve some level of risk, from the most > minimal to truly overwhelming. The vast majority of risk is well in the middle > of those two extremes. In that central range I let my clients, who know the > business best, determine what risks are acceptable and which are not. They > know their business, their goals, and their feelings best. > Julie
This presents yet another question when it comes to "professional travel agents". Just WHO is their "client"? Since their income is derived from the CRUISE LINE (Ray claims that he is paid his commission from the cruise line and NOT the "client"), isn’t he (they) actually working for the CRUISE LINE? Sine there is no exchange of "consideration" between the client and the T/A, no legal contract exists (remember, the money the client pays the T/A goes DIRECTLY to the cruiseline, according to Ray). So, without "consideration", how can a legally binding contract exist between T/A and client? Cruise line and client have a contract. T/A and cruise line have a contract. But T/A and client? Makes one go Hmmmmmmmmmmm……. Chuck Want to save some money on your next cruise? Check out: www.cruisequick.com
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> This presents yet another question when it comes to "professional travel > agents". > Just WHO is their "client"? > So, without "consideration", how can a legally binding contract exist > between T/A and client? Cruise line and client have a contract. T/A > and cruise line have a contract. But T/A and client? > Makes one go Hmmmmmmmmmmm……. > Want to save some money on your next cruise? Check out: > www.cruisequick.com
Chuck, Who is the client of cruisequick? Who pays them???? And wonder if this e-mail isn’t just a teeny tiny bit hypocritical? Julie Julie
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What does any of this have to do with Renaissance Cruise Line? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> This presents yet another question when it comes to "professional travel > agents". > Just WHO is their "client"? > So, without "consideration", how can a legally binding contract exist > between T/A and client? Cruise line and client have a contract. T/A > and cruise line have a contract. But T/A and client? > Makes one go Hmmmmmmmmmmm……. > Want to save some money on your next cruise? Check out: > www.cruisequick.com >Chuck, >Who is the client of cruisequick? Who pays them???? >And wonder if this e-mail isn’t just a teeny tiny bit hypocritical? >Julie >Julie
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>This presents yet another question when it comes to "professional travel >agents". >Just WHO is their "client"?
The client is "the booking" or the deal … All are happy when the deal works out … The cruise line – happy just to have a cabin sold … The TA – happy to have made the deal … and the customer – happy to be going on a vacation he wants … Most times it takes very little to make the cruiseline and the TA happy … the customer is the one with the most requirements (AND RIGHTLY SO) to be happy thereby making the DEAL a success … In the Village …. I am not a number … I am a free man !!!!
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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Julie, > We’ve beat poor Ray to death. Let’s just say we disagree on what a > professional consultant’s responsibilities are. Now that I see your > approach to consulting I understand why. To me, you’re more like a > subcontractor that a consultant. You advise then do what your told > regardless or the consequences. > Unlike you, I find most clients are grateful that I won’t work or accept a > fee for efforts that I am convinced ran contrary to their interests or clash > with my professional standards (conflict of interest, ethics, quality, > etc.). I believe this enhances my professional reputation instead of "being > out on a rail". Of course if I’m informed that there are undisclosed > strategic issues involved (often happens), then that’s a different story. > I guess we have a differing standards. You’ll do anything anyone tells you > for money and I won’t. But that’s what makes the world go round isn’t it. > Paul
But then, I don’t believe Julie is a washed up Beltway bandit that no one wants to hire like you are, is she? Semi-retired is a euphonysm around here for umemployable. Diane – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> BTW: Are you at George Mason? > > You just can’t throw up your hands and say "well I warned them, I > tried". A > > true professional would say politely, "I’m sorry, but I will not book > you on > > that cruse line". > I’m sorry, I disagree. Ray’s clients are adults, and they are capable of > assessing risk for themselves. And what is major inconvenience to one > client might be minor inconvenience to another. For myself, if I was > booked on a cruise and it was cancelled, I would be able to pretty easily > realign my vacation to cruise at another time. For others this would be > a significant problem. If the cruise was one I really would like to go on > (like, for example, French Polynesia) I might take that chance, knowingly. > For another individual, they might be stuck with a vacation week and > unable to > go on a dream vacation; for them the risk would be too high. > It is clear from another poster, that Ray only booked Rennaissance after a > significant discussion with the traveller to discuss this kind of thing. > He > treated the client like an adult who is able to make their own decision. > I also work as a consultant, and if I tried to tell my clients that I > would > not do something because I thought they should not take that level of > risk, > I’d be out on a rail, of almost any company. We inform them of risk if we > see it, we document it, and then we accept the decisions that they make. > That is professional behavior. Not parenting the client, but respecting > them and giving them full in formation but letting them decide > Julie