"Geezers" will have to work longer to support themselves, methinks. Interesting that the US and India are the only countries to have large numbers of young people.  It is certainly going to be different.

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They’re a smaller cohort, and just wait until they face the reality of Baby Boomer aging costs, with all those entitlement programs (which may be expanded hugely if "Medicare for All" happens). Don’t expect "free" home care for the aged.  Expect cost controls like large institutions instead.  The Echo cohort will insist on it once the bills become large enough.

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>  They’re a smaller cohort, and just wait until they face the reality of >  Baby Boomer aging costs, with all those entitlement programs (which may >  be expanded hugely if "Medicare for All" happens).

How does the civilized world do it? Isn’t there a way to cut down on the need for insurance specialists in doctors offices and Blue Cross offices that tell the employees of the town’s largest employer that to replace their card they need to call an eight hundred number and wait two weeks? >  Don’t expect "free" home care for the aged.  Expect cost controls like >  large institutions instead.  The Echo cohort will insist on it once the >  bills become large enough.

Large institutions are cheaper than visiting nurses and senior centers? — Gulf Currents: http://www.esl.lsu.edu/home/ Wetlands: http://marine.usgs.gov/fact-sheets/LAwetlands/lawetlands.html Silver foot: http://tinyurl.com/dqflr http://www.cnn.com/2005/TECH/science/09/05/katrina.wetlands.ap/

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I hate to be a "greedy geezer" but I’m glad their is a new horde out there to pay for our old age pensions.   The economic projections in the SS annual trustees report woefully underestimates the size of new generations, particularly from the immigration side, so I guess SS is in decent shape. This group needs to get politcally organized so the the greedy geezers (who do vote) dont walk all over them. Only the US and India are projected to have large numbers of young people to support their economies in the 21st century. Europe, China and Japan are top heavy with geezers and their economies will be strained.

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Poppy – San Francisco Bay Area quoted: > The largest generation of young people since the ’60s is beginning to > come of age. They’re called "echo boomers" because they’re the genetic > offspring and demographic echo of their parents, the baby boomers. > … > They are also the most diverse generation ever: 35 percent are > non-white, …

The genetic offspring of the baby boomers are the most diverse generation ever (35% non-white)? How on earth did they manage that? Indoarsman

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The Echo Boomers Sept. 4, 2005 If you’ve ever wondered why corporate America, Hollywood, Madison Avenue and the media all seem obsessed with the youth culture, the answer is simple. The largest generation of young people since the ’60s is beginning to come of age. They’re called "echo boomers" because they’re the genetic offspring and demographic echo of their parents, the baby boomers. Born between 1982 and 1995, there are nearly 80 million of them, and they’re already having a huge impact on entire segments of the economy. And as the population ages, they will be become the next dominant generation of Americans. Who are they? What do they want? As Correspondent Steve Kroft first reported last October, you’ll be surprised. The oldest are barely out of college, and the youngest are still in grade school. And whether you call them "echo boomers," "Generation Y" or "millennials," they already make up nearly a third of the U.S. population, and already spend $170 billion a year of their own and their parents’ money. Almost none of it is spent on boring things like mortgages and medication, and the world is falling all over itself trying to sell them things. What brands do they love? Sony, Patagonia, Gap, Gillette, Aveda. Only a small percentage are eligible to vote, yet they are already one of the must studied generations in history — by sociologists, demographers and marketing consultants like Jane Buckingham of the Intelligence Group. Buckingham uses focus groups to gather information for clients such as NBC, Chanel, Nike and Levi Strauss. Echo boomers are a reflection of the sweeping changes in American life over the past 20 years. They are the first to grow up with computers at home, in a 500-channel TV universe. They are multi-taskers with cell phones, music downloads, and Instant Messaging on the Internet. They are totally plugged- in citizens of a worldwide community. Nick Summers of Columbia University and Andie Gissing from Middlebury College in Vermont are college seniors and editors of their college newspapers. They are both in touch with the echo boomer ethos. (Note: Since 60 Minutes first broadcast this story, these college editors have become college graduates, and Neil Howe and colleague William Strauss have completed another study of the echo boom generation, "Millennials and the Pop Culture," to be published this fall.) "I would say that my generation tends to be very overachieving, over-managed," says Summers. "Very pressured." "I would agree with that," adds Gissing. "A lot of people work hard or want to do well, I guess." And it’s no wonder they feel that way. From when they were toddlers, they have been belted into car seats, and driven off to some form of organized group activity. After graduating from "Gymboree" and "Mommy and Me," they have been shuttled to play dates and soccer practice, with barely a day off, by parents who’ve felt their kids needed structure, and a sense of mission. Dr. Mel Levine, a professor at the University of North Carolina, is one of the best-known pediatricians in the country. He says it’s had as much to do with shaping this generation as technology. "They have been heavily programmed. The kids who have had soccer Monday, Kung Fu Tuesday, religious classes Wednesday, clarinet lessons Thursday. Whose whole lives have really been based on what some adult tells them to do," says Levine. "This is a generation that has long aimed to please. They’ve wanted to please their parents, their friends, their teachers, their college admissions officers." It’s a generation in which rules seem to have replaced rebellion, convention is winning out over individualism, and values are very traditional. They are also the most diverse generation ever: 35 percent are non-white, and the most tolerant, believing everyone should be part of the community.Historian Neil Howe, along with co-author William Strauss, has made a career studying different generations. Howe says all the research on echo boomers always reflects the same thing: They are much different than their self-absorbed, egocentric baby boomer parents. "Nothing could be more anti-boom than being a good team player, right? Fitting in. Worrying less about leadership than follower-ship," says Howe. "If you go into a public school today, teamwork is stressed everywhere. Team teaching, team grading, collaborative sports, community service, service learning, student juries. I mean, the list goes on and on." Howe thinks they are more like their grandparents, the great World War II generation — more interested in building things up than tearing them down. "When you ask kids, ‘What do you most hope to achieve there?’ Where they used to say, ‘I wanna be No. 1. I wanna be the best,’ increasingly they’re saying, ‘I wanna be an effective member of the team. I wanna do everything that’s required of me,’" says Howe. And you can already see some results. Violent crime among teenagers is down 60 to 70 percent. The use of tobacco and alcohol are at all-time lows. So is teen pregnancy. Five out of 10 echo boomers say they trust the government, and virtually all of them trust mom and dad. Through sheer numbers, they’re beginning to change society. They have affected school construction, college enrollments, product development, and media content. And according to Buckingham, they are changing the way things are sold, from clothing to cars, because mass marketing doesn’t always reach them. "They’re not watching the traditional networks as much because they have so many choices. They’re playing on the Internet. They’re playing videogames," says Buckingham. "They’re out and about, shopping a lot. So, the traditional 30-second commercial isn’t always working the way it was." They are the most sophisticated generation ever when it comes to media. They create their own Web sites, make their own CDs and DVDs, and are cynical of packaged messages. They take their cues from each other. A well-placed product on one of their pop idols, like Paris Hilton or Ashton Kutcher, can launch a brand of $40 T-shirts and trucker hats. But they also shop at vintage clothing shops. Buckingham employs the services of some 1,500 young people scattered around the country, and relies on their regular reports on what’s hot and what’s not to keep her and her clients ahead of the latest trends. "One of the things with this generation is word of mouth. Buzz is more important today than it’s ever been," says Buckingham. "And that can get started on the Internet. That can get started just through friends. And it’s very hard for a marketer to tap into that unless it’s really a product that they like." Toyota is already betting hundreds of millions of dollars to try to create that buzz, in launching a car division aimed exclusively at echo boomers. "They’ve affected clothing. They’ve affected beverage. And now, they’re just about to affect the car business," says Jim Farley, head of Toyota’s Scion division. Toyota is quietly peddling its new $15,000 cars, with air conditioning and power windows, by sponsoring events like street basketball/break dance festivals, where they always have cars on hand for people to look at and sometimes even test drive. "People kind of just stumble on our product, and it’s cool that way," says Farley. That’s what the company wants. "This is like regular car companies are on TV. This is our regular activity. This is how we expose our cars to young people." Seventy percent of Scion’s promotion is being spent on those events. Only 30 percent is spent on traditional advertising, and much of that is on the Internet, where echo boomers can fill out a Scion order form, customize their car with 40 different options, and drop off the form at the dealership without ever hearing a sales pitch. It’s early yet, but Farley says Scion is meeting its sales projections: "I think how we’ve looked at it is that we can’t afford not to do this." Echo boomers have their own television network, the WB, and their own stores, with multimedia presentations and disc jockeys to lure them in the door. It’s a generation used to being catered to. "They are more protected," says Howe. "They regard themselves as collectively special, because of the time in which they were raised." Why do they consider themselves special? "Because they came along at a time when we started re-valuing kids. During the ’60s and ’70s, the frontier of reproductive medicine was contraception," says Howe. "During the ’80s and beyond, it’s been fertility and scouring the world to find orphan kids that we can adopt. …The culture looked down on kids. Now it wants kids; it celebrates them." Echo boomers are the most watched-over generation in history. Most have never ridden a bike without a helmet, ridden in a car without a seat belt, or eaten in a cafeteria that serves peanut butter. "Sometimes, they don’t know what to do if they’re just left outside and you say, ‘Well, just do something by yourself for a while,’" says Howe. "They’ll look around stunned. You know, ‘What are we supposed to do now?’" They’re hovered over by what college administrators call "helicopter parents." Protected and polished, they are trophy children in every sense of the word. "Everyone is above average in our generation," says Summers. "Everybody gets a trophy at the end of the year. It’s something you’re used to," adds Gissing. "And you have the rows of trophies lined up on your windowsill, or whatever." "Parents feel as if they’re holding onto a piece of Baccarat crystal or something that could somehow shatter at any point," says Levine. "And so parents really have a sense their kids are fragile. And parents therefore are protecting them, inflating their egos. Massaging them, fighting their battles for them." Levine, who is considered one of the foremost authorities in the country on how children learn, is … read more »

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Ha ha — even the right is shitting on Bush now! Osama bin Forgotten Posted: September 8, 2003 1:00 a.m. Eastern By Paul Sperry

> By the way, Grahame, I went to two columns on all pages rather than three; > as you said, there was too much text in the middle. I think its a lot nicer > now.

That’s probably best. You can always use a image aligned to the right side instead of a dedicated column… I noticed that CNN is more inclined to do that these days too. I still like the right most margin 90 degree rotated marketing text phrase banner. I did that initially because one of my marketing people kept pushing a phrase that certainly got viewers to stop and think as it seemed to be the opposite of what would assume we’d say. I finally tried the banner position and it worked well as she said it would. I just finished updating an online rolidex-like online that I provide for buyers in an obscure aviation market that I sell to. So I’ve been looking at a lot of corporate webpages and its an interesting opportunity to observe and contrasts corporate web solutions for the same basic marketplace. Of course my motivation in providing this reference is that I get to intercept all the search engine results for any buyer trying to find the company with which they want to spend money. While I allow them to do their lookups easily, I also get to place my own advertising in from of buyers in my marketplace. Its been the only real synergy I’ve observed despite all the MBA overuse of that "Synergy" word. And the reference provides better content that search engines themselves provide (or else they’d not link to it Here’s something I’ve noticed as a trend: More and more large corporations are dropping the posted email address and switching to fill-in forms that automatically email to the company. Why? One good reason is that it halts a lot of the junk mail that gets sent to corporate emails. For example, every few days I see an IP in a some third world country scan for "email+2003+USA+…". These are usually the guys that send out those scam letters I’ve mentioned in the past and they’re just looking for new targets. When I see these scans in the log, I contemplate and the set the deny access on their IP block. As I mentioned before, my company website has deny access set on all continents that I don’t sell to. I did receive a fresh scam email today that I cant imagine any businessman would be fooled by. I opened the email through a standoff browser with all java/graphics etc turned off – its affectively a text browser for maximum safety. The letter was from a foreign name with no corporate traceback and titled to suggest that they had urgent business request in [ the marketplace of my product line]. The email said, please open the attached microsoft word DOC file for details.  Yeah right… Anyone too stupid not to (1) get to the point in the first two sentences of an email is too stupid to really be in business, and (2) No one, not even Bill Gates is dumb enough to open any microsoft formatted file attached to an email. The language was so stilted that I had no trouble tossing it into the virtual shreader. It was amusing too how poorly that plugged in the [ marketplace ] insert making it an obviously uninformed source. I’m considering what I might do to reduce the uninvolved market fake contacts to my email. One way to do this is to post emails on websites in png/gif format so that text-strippers and search engines won’t pick it up. > I also tried pulling my content all the way to the left as you > suggested but it looked pretty bad.

Next time I look at your website I’ll snatch a HTML copy and look at why that is. What I’m talking about mostly is removing the built-in margins that browsers insert. There are two commands that address this: In your BODY tag where you may specify link fonts and backgrounds add the following four margin commands within the BODY’s angle brackets: leftmargin=0 topmargin=0 marginwidth=0 marginheight=0 That slams the page right up against the edge graphic of the browser and makes it seem more like its integral with the browser than a thing that floats about the page. :S I haven’t really thought about what one would have to change in their web layout to approach using these margin removers. Its an interesting observation you made and I’ll give it some thought. > I found a glaring error, on Every page, that nobody picked up! Its already > been corrected on my hard drive, and will be posted along with some other > minor fixes and additions within a few days.

One of the sites I checked today for my online rolidex had some dead links to their product pages. I looked to see why I couldn’t access each of their products’ pages and it turned out that their web-bozo had the links to ///file… In other words it pointed to hard drive files and looked fine on his editing PC station but was a deadlink in the web world. Who would ever post a business webpage update and not immediately do a standoff webaccess traversal to make sure it works???!!! I find too that more and more companies are reversing their stand on Java/Flash Sparkle only websites. At one time, 4 out of a hundred in THAT industry had gone Sparkle-Only. Today I only found one corporate webpage that still required java to navigate from their opening page.

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> I’ve been working on my web page for the past few days and have finally > pulled together a rough draft.

I posted a follow-up to this thread a couple of days ago, but apparently it didn’t go through. I made the easier corrections, dumped some things that didn’t make sense, put almost all of the suggestions on a too-due list, and am now wanting to go and drum up some new business Regarding the pictures, I will keep them there on this particular site. I have some product oriented sites that I need to get into doing for my automotive and military products, and of course, those will not include pictures. I will get professional pictures done for the next revision of the site. I figure I will have to re-do much of my site to really take advantage of all the great suggestions I’ve gotten. By the way, Grahame, I went to two columns on all pages rather than three; as you said, there was too much text in the middle. I think its a lot nicer now. I also tried pulling my content all the way to the left as you suggested (as opposed to centering my page), but it looked pretty bad. Second request: I’d really like to see your web page so that I can compare it alongside your suggestions to me. Oh, I deleted all the "test" stuff from earlier on, and the new stuff is up at http://miketurco.com I found a glaring error, on Every page, that nobody picked up! Its already been corrected on my hard drive, and will be posted along with some other minor fixes and additions within a few days. So if you think you have an eagle eye, you might want to have another look! Mike Turco * Fire your employees and replace * them with computers: http://miketurco.com

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OK! Lots of great feedback, and thanks to everyone! One thing I need to do is go out and sell, and in order to do so I need to put up that site because I need collateral materials. As I said, new product development ("inventing") hasn’t panned out too well for me, but I am getting consulting business, and I need more of it.  So I have put most of the suggestions into a "too due list", and I plan to make some basic corrections to my site for now and then plug away at everything else over time. A web page is something that should be worked on and tweaked over time, and it makes sense to set aside a certain amount of time at a regular interval for improvements. I haven’t done a good job of that in the past, but I see it as something I need to do. Regarding the picture/no-picture discussion, I am selling myself as a consultant on this page. I’ll take up Scott’s suggestion of getting a pro to do the pictures, and maybe even send a few shots off to Grahame to see what he can do with them I am planning to launch two new sites soon, one for each of my products (the key drawer and the armory database.) On those sites, I will be selling product, and there won’t be people’s pictures. I’ll take up most of Grahame’s detailed suggestions on those pages. Right now, I’m not in such a position to re-layout my consulting site. Grahame, if you could email me your URL, I’d appreciate it. I promise to not send your email address or URL to the Minister of Building Development in Uganda or anything like that (nor will I post it anywhere. I would like to see your page layout, and am curious as hell about what it is that you do.) I would have much preferred to list out most of the suggestions that have been made and respond to each individually, but I’ve really got my work cut out here and had better get to it! Thanks Again, Mike

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> > > And, I cannot help myself and got to say this.  Mike, do > > you know any business that isn’t "growth oriented"??? > >  :-)  *laugh* > Yes. Computer consulting since around March of 2000. > What?  They might be having a hard time, but they still want to grow. James > Logajan is a perfect example of this.  Go, Jim, go!

Wanting to grow and actually growing are two different things. I am wide open here to suggestions re. a tag line. For a long time I used, "The computer consultant’s computer consultant" since a lot of my clients were VAR’S and consultants themselves, but I am looking for something with broader appeal. — Mike

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> Grahame, if you could email me > your URL, I’d appreciate it. I promise to not send your email address or URL > to the Minister of Building Development in Uganda or anything like that (nor > will I post it anywhere. I would like to see your page layout, and am > curious as hell about what it is that you do.)

I would also apprecaite if you e-mailed me the web address, for the reasons I gave in my earlier post.  My valid e-mail address is below. I’m sure Mike and I aren’t the only ones who would like to be able to compare your site to your written explanation of the design.  Would you post a spam-proof version of the web address in the reply?  Something a bot couldn’t extract, like maybe as the first words in a series of nonsense sentences?  A person could pick that up, but I don’t think they’re the source of the kind of trouble you’re trying to avoid. Thanks, Rob Campbell

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>> However, Mike isn’t selling a gadget.  Mike’s selling himself. > His website’s URL makes this blatantly clear. > What nonsense. He’s selling business services.

So there’s another guy…sells the exact same business services as Mike. Goes by the name of ‘Killer’. His hair is a in a nice purple mohican style, he’s got an assortment of tattoos covering his face in a colourful swastika motif and he’s got a variety of rings, safety pins, and fish hooks inserted into about 40 piercings across his ears, eyebrows, nose and lips. Oh, yeah, and another four in his tongue, but heck, you can’t even see those unless he talks. But it really doesn’t matter, right Clyt-etc.? ‘Cause he’s selling business services, not himself! As a consultant, your product is packaged inside yourself and cannot be separated out. They’ll never find out whether your services are any good if they don’t like that packaging. > This is the sort of double-think that start-up advertising agencies > and the dodgier sort of consultants promote when they can’t think of > anything useful to contribute.

Just a friendly tip: it’s more persuasive if you defend your argument rather than insulting those you disagree with. — George Demmer Reality Marketing Associates, Coquitlam, BC, Canada Phone: (604) 944-8603 Web site: www.realityassociates.com Everything your company does is marketing. We can help you do it better.

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*whispers to Grahame*  And while you’re at it, make a funny one and post a link to it here.  ;-)

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> …may grab another URL sometime in the not > too distant future and go for the "I’m a business > not a person" approach.

Right now you’re a one-man shop so the approach you’re taking is a sound one.  Yes, you have to balance things, but giving it the personal touch that they can connect to is the way to go for now.  However… When you finally bring in someone as a partner, you should then change a bit.  Not much, but a bit.  With just one partner or two, I’d just add them to the photos and add their name to the business.  Same approach, but just more friendly faces for them to connect with.  If they’re "only" employees (i.e., secretary), I won’t make any change from the present. Now when you move from a small consultancy to a medium consultancy, you MIGHT want consider a different change.  However, look at one of the biggest names in advertising and one that even Clytemnestra likes quoting, that being Olivy.  How did he sell his business?  By being anonymous behind a faceless company name?  Hardly.  Just the opposite. Now if you want to go after major corporate accounts, it doesn’t mean you have to change how you sell yourself.  They’re still hiring you.  A specialist.  If anything, if I was you, I’d hire a small PR firm and have them work to make you a mini-celebrity in your field.  Celebrityhood converts into gold as far as consultants are concerned. So can your website look more polished?  Yes.  Should it look more polished? Yes.  Should it remove you from the picture?  No. Scott Jensen — Like a cure for A.I.D.S, Alzheimer, Parkinson, & Mad Cow Disease? Volunteer your computer for folding-protein research for when it’s idle. Go to http://www.distributedfolding.org/ to sign up your computer.

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"Grahame Olney" wrote <snip> > I use three columns thus:

<snip> For convenience, could you post your web address here. IIRC, I’ve visited it before but can’t find it now. Being able to view it at the same time as reading your comments would be more enlightening. Thanks, Rob Campbell

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Mike, Take a couple photos of your ugly mug and send them to Grahame.  See what he can do with them.  :-) Scott Jensen — Like a cure for A.I.D.S, Alzheimer, Parkinson, & Mad Cow Disease? Volunteer your computer for folding-protein research for when it’s idle. Go to http://www.distributedfolding.org/ to sign up your computer.

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> For convenience, could you post your web address here.

You are correct it would be more meaningful to read the discussion and view it at the same time. Just the same I’d prefer to keep it anonymous on Usenet. I get enough of the "spanish-prisoner-scam" emailed to my business address already. Posting real world data here would only increase the spamming.  I just got two mailed from the Ivory Coast yesterday. I’ve received lot of versions from Russia, Africa, India and Brazil but  since then I’ve made my website UN-Viewable outside of North America and it cut down the occurence. I guess I’m still giving South America a chance. Apparently the third world thinks that if they email that stupid form letter to everyone in the world, someone is going to be fooled and send them money. It must be what they do in countries too poor to have Amway franchises. The funniest version I received was from someone that didn’t even know to remove "insert bank name here" from the letters text. For those that don’t know what this is about, its a scam-letter spammed out requesting money. It usually involves a dead or imprisoned weathly relative who requests their daughter or son to seek an American partner (lucky us) who’ll invest to free him or his funds from some entanglement. There are endless variations of this… a neighbor of mine once fell for the Nigerian Oil scam (invest to free up contracts in limbo and make 10 times your investment). Yeah right. He tried to get me to invest and I told him to go immediately to the District Attorney because he was being scammed.

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> Mike, > Take a couple photos of your ugly mug and send them to Grahame.  See what he > can do with them.  :-)

That my be a fun Sunday morning project. I could use the webpage photo but a high rez master to doctor with is always better. The de-rezing stage averages out to rough transitions without the need of a swabbing tool. The final lesson regarding posting photos is do you want to know someone somewhere as digitally pasted your head on some other photo?

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> For convenience, could you post your web address here. > You are correct it would be more meaningful to read the discussion and > view it at the same time. > Just the same I’d prefer to keep it anonymous on Usenet. I get enough > of the "spanish-prisoner-scam" emailed to my business address already. > Posting real world data here would only increase the spamming.

I’m still foolish enough to include my legitimate e-mail address at the bottom of each post, so if you don’t mind, please send me the URL there.  I don’t have a web page yet.  I’m designing one in my notebook, and good inspiration – especially with the design choices explained – is hard to find.  This thread has been helpful in that regard. Thanks, Rob Campbell

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  However, Mike isn’t selling a gadget.  Mike’s selling himself. > His website’s URL makes this blatantly clear.

What nonsense. He’s selling business services. This is the sort of double-think that start-up advertising agencies and the dodgier sort of consultants promote when they can’t think of anything useful to contribute.

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>   However, Mike isn’t selling a gadget.  Mike’s selling himself. > His website’s URL makes this blatantly clear. > What nonsense. He’s selling business services.

A reasonable counterpoint, but… > This is the sort of > double-think that start-up advertising agencies and the dodgier sort > of consultants promote when they can’t think of anything useful to > contribute.

this doesn’t support your point at all. It is just a personal attack. His service generally doesn’t need selling – either people decide they need the service or they don’t. Once they decide they need it, then they have to decide _who_. An employee? An outside consultant? Which one? If you try to sell them on using a consultant and you succeed in your arguments, you still haven’t sold them on using you! So Scott has identified the correct emphasis.

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>   However, Mike isn’t selling a gadget.  Mike’s selling himself. > His website’s URL makes this blatantly clear. > What nonsense. He’s selling business services. This is the sort of > double-think that start-up advertising agencies and the dodgier sort of > consultants promote when they can’t think of anything useful to

contribute. I’ve been in business for thirty years, the last ten consulting, and I’ve always sold myself, not my business. My collateral materials have always been focused on what "I" do and "My" background. People don’t even remember the name of my company, and they always have to ask "To whom do I write this check?" So I don’t think that Scott is off base here. It works! Now, there is a certain point where selling yourself as opposed to selling business services gets out of hand, and that is something I have to watch. There are also some issues that Grahame mentioned in regards to this issue, regarding going after bigger corporate accounts and so forth, which I will definitely think about. (I have always worked with companies between $10 & $100M, and while Grahame’s comments about the big corporate accounts don’t mean much to my current model, there is a lot to consider, as the big companies (I think) have money too.) In the meantime, it is my plan to focus on "me" on this page, the work "I’ve" done, etc., because this has always worked. I am definitely open to experimenting with this, though, and may grab another URL sometime in the not too distant future and go for the "I’m a business not a person" approach. Mike

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> > My initial reaction is…. > MY EYES!  MY EYES!  I saw this horrible face and now I > cannot see!  MY EYES!!!!! > Maybe I should just hire a model

I’d go with a hot Asian babe.  However, I think you would be selling something else on your website then.  *laugh* > Seriously, I think you should keep the photo on all > your pages.  One of the biggest problems with > websites is they’re WAY too impersonal. > I agree. I’ve caught some comments from people in the > past about pics on every page appearing to be conceited, > and I don’t want to overdo it.

Mike, you’re selling yourself as your URL makes that very clear.  If you were selling an inanimate object, I might agree with them, but you’re not. *whispers*  Don’t worry, I won’t tell anyone that you actually are.  I personally like androids.  ;-) > However, what I do suggest is that you have a different > mug shot for each page.  Go and get a professional > digital photographer to do this for you. > It was a $500 camera (mine), and a friend of mine who is > a pretty damn good photographer. But in the end, shrinking > the photo didn’t work out too well, etc. etc., and we need to > do another photo shoot.

You need a pro.  See my reply to Clytemnestra for more on this point. > Also think of where you can put in a full body shot of you > on a page.  Let them see all of you.  And, NO, I do NOT > mean without clothes!  [Scott fights the image for the sake > of his sanity ... and fortunately wins ... though others here > will swear he didn't.] > I’ll save the cheesecake for my paysite

First, since you’re a guy, it’s beefcake and not cheesecake. Second, aaaaaahhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!  The image!  The image! Aaaaaaaahhhhhhhhh!!!!!  Make it go away!  Make it go away! Aaaaaaaahhhhhhhh!!!! > Think of what image you want and select > clothes that would present that.  I’d probably > put this on at least your bio page … saying you > have one. > I have a bio I posted here some time back that was > pretty good, just after this group re-started (I think). > I should dig it up on google.

Since you’re basically selling yourself, I’d recommend you add this to your website. > If you want to look real professional, I’d > have you wear a three-piece suit for that > full-length shot on your bio page. > A suit, huh? I’m more one of those frizzy-haired > programmers Grahame was talking about in > another post. But, yah.

Just because you are something in real life doesn’t mean you should present that when you’re trying to sell yourself.  Think of this as a job interview. It is very close to that. > And, I cannot help myself and got to say this.  Mike, do > you know any business that isn’t "growth oriented"??? >  :-)  *laugh* > Yes. Computer consulting since around March of 2000.

What?  They might be having a hard time, but they still want to grow.  James Logajan is a perfect example of this.  Go, Jim, go! > Well, those are just some off-the-cuff remarks. > Thanks!

No problem and good luck! Scott Jensen — Like a cure for A.I.D.S, Alzheimer, Parkinson, & Mad Cow Disease? Volunteer your computer for folding-protein research for when it’s idle. Go to http://www.distributedfolding.org/ to sign up your computer.

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> 4) Bring your entire wardrobe to the photo shoot.

Unnecessary in my opinion. We doctor our images so well we could our baby photos. You only need a photographer when you post serious resolution photos. On a website there is no pay-off using high-rez images – most webdesigners don’t really de-rez photos well. That used to be due to ignorance, but most justify these days by suggesting everyone has DSL/Cable bandwidth (infomation week says only 15%). On my consulting company’s webpage, we took a photo of my in the lab and doctored it up. I grew a tie, had my beard trimmed, washed out the research projects on the desk and replaced it with a paneled office background. When it was done the way we needed it… we shrunk it 4 fold to the targeted size and de-rez’s it so remove all the doctored remnants. Even if you blow the photo up you couldn’t tell what was original and what was not. This photo was accompaning my "Letter from the President". I said I’d try it out but had it removed a week later. Its simply not a good idea according to my MBA training. I use it for inner-office webpages only. Regarding doctoring photos… my sister came back from the Australia Olympics and was mailed a photo of she and her husband in front of the Sydney bridge. The only problem was, the company that hosted their trip mailed her the wrong photo – is was some other couple. She mailed me the photo and another photo she wanted clipped in of the correct couple. I did the masking, the size matching, the lighting adjustment, the repixelization and then the touchup. When it was in good shape, I reduced it fourfold and remapped the colors. She got it back in an email and took to to a fancy photo shop to get it printed for framing. No one has ever questioned its authenticity. I guess I got the assignment because I did an animated gif years ago wherein facial hair and eye counts toggled every second. Question from 2005: "What is a photographer?"

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> > Seriously, I think you should keep the photo on all your > pages.  One of the biggest problems with websites is > they’re WAY too impersonal.  Slapping a mug on them > enables people to connect with them. > Is there any value in mug-shots in advertisements, or are > they on par with photos of the factory?

It depends what you’re selling.  If you’re selling a gadget, show the gadget in your ads.  However, Mike isn’t selling a gadget.  Mike’s selling himself. His website’s URL makes this blatantly clear.  So for Mike it is very important that he show photos of himself since he’s the "gadget" he’s selling.  As for the example I gave Mike that got far more results putting faces on their website than not, it was essentially a tech support business. It made sense showing their faces since people want to feel that they’ll be taken care of by real people and showing faces helps convey that. > David Ogilvie again: > When the client moans and sighs > Make his logo twice the size. > If he still should prove refractory > Show a picture of his factory. > Only in the gravest cases > Should you show the clients’ faces.

I rarely ever make business decisions based on how cute a poem rhythms.  ;-) > Ogilvie’s point was not that there’s anything wrong with > photos of clients and factories, just that customers are > more interested in the product, and your advertising > space is usually better used in other ways. Not such a > big problem with web pages.

Again, it has everything to do with what you’re selling. > A problem with mug shots is that perceptions are so > hard to predict. There was a real estate agent here > who put himself out of business using his face as a > logo. He thought he looked honest; but most people > thought he was the very epitome of the guy you > wouldn’t buy a used car from.

This is partly why I recommended that Mike have a professional take his mug shots.  Mike, if you’re reading this and I will assume you will be, I still recommend you get a pro to do your photo and not have your buddy do it. Yes, this is partly in reply to your reply to my reply to your original post.  Hmmm.  Say that ten times real fast. *laugh* A good professional photographer can get the lighting just right, do post-production touch-ups, know how to convey the mood/image you want the photo to present, etc.  Yes, it does cost money, but it is money very well spent.  Now I could rip apart your mug shot point by point, but I’d really rather not.  It’s not a bad one, but simply not as good as it could be.  A professional will get it to be the best it can be … and then some with post-production.  ;-)  As for which pro to hire, I recommend you: 1) Only get those that take digital photos.  They understand the medium and its limitation.  They’ll also get the photo into a computer file for you to easily insert into your website.  If you use a traditional photographer, you might as well just take the photo yourself since you’ll be the one scanning in the photo to add it your website and the scanning process could easily mess up what the pro spent so long accomplishing.  A true pro will know to look at your website, see the size limitations s/he will be working under, take note of the background colors, etc.  There’s a lot of things they’ll be taking into consideration for your photo shoot and more than what I’ve just listed. 2) Don’t take their word for their ability nor believe their ads.  Only believe their portfolios and little else.  Ask to see their DIGITAL portfolio and don’t listen to their sales pitch as you look at it.  Are these photos ones you like?  Is there at least one that is along the lines of what you want yours to look like?  Their portfolio is what they can do. They can always do worse but rarely better.  Afterall, they know to only put their best work into their portfolio.  You just need to listen to your gut on whether or not you like the work they’ve done. 3) When you find a pro whose work you like, discuss your website with them and show it to them.  Don’t assume they’ll later visit it.  Take them by the hand and show them it on their business computer.  If you got a laptop, bring it and have your website on it in case the photographer’s business computer isn’t connected to the net.  Be sure to discuss the background your photo will be appear on.  I have reddish blonde hair.  If I put on a red shirt, my hear looks basically red.  If I put on a white shirt, my hair looks basically blonde.  Get the idea?  Unless you’re willing to dye your hair, you need to think what’s best for it as far as background goes.  The pro will likely recommend a background color that will not make you look so washed-out.  Now if you’re not willing to change the background, that’s probably fine.  The pro will simply do the best s/he can do given that limitation.  Oh, and if you are willing to change the background color, you only need to do this for the banner that it is in.  Also, don’t be surprised the pro recommends a different color scheme for you URL since it is so big in your banner as it likely will also affect the reception of your photo. 4) Bring your entire wardrobe to the photo.  Let the pro look them all over. Discuss what you have beforehand with her/him and they might recommend you buy some new shirts and ties for the shoot.  Do it.  Oh, and if they do, seriously consider making this your new color scheme for they’re picking those new colors for a reason.  However, ask them about this since what is good for a photo shoot might not look good in-person. Good luck! Scott Jensen — Like a cure for A.I.D.S, Alzheimer, Parkinson, & Mad Cow Disease? Volunteer your computer for folding-protein research for when it’s idle. Go to http://www.distributedfolding.org/ to sign up your computer.

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> My initial reaction is…. > MY EYES!  MY EYES!  I saw this horrible face and now I cannot see!  MY > EYES!!!!!

Maybe I should just hire a model > *laugh* > Seriously, I think you should keep the photo on all your pages.  One of the > biggest problems with websites is they’re WAY too impersonal.

I agree. I’ve caught some comments from people in the past about pics on every page appearing to be conceited, and I don’t want to overdo it. > However, what I do suggest is that you have a different mug shot for each > page.  Go and get a professional digital photographer to do this for you.

It was a $500 camera (mine), and a friend of mine who is a pretty damn good photographer. But in the end, shrinking the photo didn’t work out too well, etc. etc., and we need to do another photo shoot. > Also think of where you can put in a full body shot of you on a page.  Let > them see all of you.  And, NO, I do NOT mean without clothes!  [Scott fights > the image for the sake of his sanity ... and fortunately wins ... though > others here will swear he didn't.]

I’ll save the cheesecake for my paysite > Think of what image you want and select > clothes that would present that.  I’d probably put this on at least your bio > page … saying you have one.

I have a bio I posted here some time back that was pretty good, just after this group re-started (I think). I should dig it up on google. > If you want to look real professional, I’d > have you wear a three-piece suit for that full-length shot on your bio

page. A suit, huh? I’m more one of those frizzy-haired programmers Grahame was talking about in another post. But, yah. > As for your font … hmmm … I’d look into getting better stuff.  A bit > more smooth.

I agree. I’d like to get some more business so that I can make a significant investment into hiring a graphic artist to do some of this stuff for me. > I’d switch the position of "Newsletter Archive" and "How To Grow your > Successful business".  On the "How To…", you need to pick a capitalization > scheme and stick with it.

OK. > I’d get rid of the two red growth charts.  The one on the right also needs a > headline … unless you really want just your name to be a headline.

I’m not too pleased with some of the clip art, but I looked around pretty hard and used the best stuff I could find. I didn’t catch that I had used that chart twice. Originally it was just text in the upper-right-hand corner, but it threw the page out of balance. > And, I cannot help myself and got to say this.  Mike, do you know any > business that isn’t "growth oriented"???  :-)  *laugh*

Yes. Computer consulting since around March of 2000. > Well, those are just some off-the-cuff remarks.

Thanks! Mike

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> http://miketurco.com/snew

First, I’d advise removing the photo. Its a good photo but the its better to appear as a impersonal business machine. People looking to hire your services don’t want distractions from their problems, they want to see that your company can solve them… any distractions are dangerous. If you need a web-placeholder where the picture is, do a drawing of a PC-Man (monitor headed cartoon man). No one will pay attention to it but they’ll notice it and get the message that you are a computer-man and that’s what they want. I like the digital screen background. It looks real professional and computer-tech. What bothers me most about the set of pages is the imbalance of content in the columns. Most content is in the center column which appears on my browser as the thinnest… making the page scroll excessively on the high content pages with empty columns to the left and right. SERVICES page is an example. It would be better to use a rectangular block for those sidelines and re-expand the content below. The clip-art is good, I wasn’t distracted by the re-use of the graph. I’m not all that pleased with the color selection, you might ask some artist friend to advise on that. I’d suggest when dealing with background colors that you should lighten them to the edge of discernability. Keeping a page light help people read it and avoids more so the feeling of "heavy content". I really don’t like a CENTERED webpage. I know the reasons for doing that but I’ve always slammed mine right up against the left margin, removed the browser built in spacing top and left and locked the page width. It tends to make the website look more like a part of the web-browser than a website floating in its display window. I also force the link colors so they don’t stickout annoying in purples and blues that may not match the color scheme of your page. If its part of your pages’ appearance, control it. I make my linkes in the same color as my text, even old links. The underlines identify them as links, though I personally disable that feature. I prefer mouse disclosure to links from text. Usually the context clearly identifies imbedded links. Another problem I have is that your company is Think Tank Consulting yet your website name and banner is MikeTurco.com. This just creates confusion and makes the professional viewer think your in the early stages of web presence and self-absorbed. Think Tank Consulting is more powerful in a business context and that’s what you are really pitching, not your Mother’s son. I find it distracting that pages are titled "About Mike Turco" instead of "About Think Tank Consulting". I understand that you can be pitching yourself as a one-man consultantcy, but it raises so bad questions in the mind of someone that might hire you. Focus on an individual and tiny businesses may hire you… large corporations might not simply because you revealed too much, unnecessarily. I do like that the very top of your page is identical on each page… this makes for better page transitions. Three column design is hot in webdesign too… though content balance needs to be imposed there. I use three columns thus: Left top is logo, left margin is logo matching navigation buttons. Top is banner and contact info (on every page). I find companies overlook the advantages of having contact info always visible and I’m surprised how many professional sites hide their contact info. Left margin is usually 15% width. Right margin is non-existent or 10%. I use the right margin for drill-down text links for product information or such. I use it on other pages for a vertical text banner  that I change every month with some catching phrase. I have one annimation on the page. It sits dormant next to bulleted list with the product tradename for about 20 seconds and then kicks in with a question on the minds of every buyer looking at the page. It then answers to question graphically and quickly so that they have to wait till it comes around again for another look. Most of the page is wide content in short paragraphs with Big titles to allow convenient scanning. High on the page is a yellow highlighted lists of buyer questions that just happen to be things our product can address. I follow that below the animation mentioned with a point by point solution to each of those questions, highlighted here in a green. Something new I’ve added this month to increase search engine performance: At the bottom of my first page, below the text jumps and normal horizontal divisions I’ve attached about 2x the length to that point as MORE INFORMATION: in which I include many of the selling points mentioned on subsequent pages. This allows my to utilize all the keywords and new search phrases I want on the main arrival page. I start each of these short paragraphs with a repeating icon and each is targeted to a customers needs. Anyone scanning through the first page in a quick assessment to stay or go, can quickly find themselves and how we make they job easier. I have another new trick I’ll write about some other time.

Response:

My initial reaction is…. MY EYES!  MY EYES!  I saw this horrible face and now I cannot see!  MY EYES!!!!! *laugh* Seriously, I think you should keep the photo on all your pages.  One of the biggest problems with websites is they’re WAY too impersonal.  Slapping a mug on them enables people to connect with them.  One of my clients "slightly" disagreed with me on this point.  It was easy to resolve.  I had him get his webmaster make two versions of the company website and had the public randomly accessed one or the other.  One had at least one mug shot on each page of one of their actual employees (and their title under their image) that is in charge of that area being discussed on the page.  The feedback page had their Director of Customer Service, their technical info pages had their Director of IT, etc.  The other version was a freshened up version of their "faceless" website.  They also installed a way to separately track results on the two.  Guess which one got FOURTEEN times as many online purchases?  :-) However, what I do suggest is that you have a different mug shot for each page.  Go and get a professional digital photographer to do this for you. No, your kid and the digital camera he got out of the Captain Crunch cereal box won’t do.  Put on a different shirt and tie for each so there’s no mistaking that it’s a different mug shot.  Alternate it from one side to the other.  In other words, keep you silly grin there but give some variety. Oh, I’d also consider going to a barber and getting that beard a little more under control.  ;-) Also think of where you can put in a full body shot of you on a page.  Let them see all of you.  And, NO, I do NOT mean without clothes!  [Scott fights the image for the sake of his sanity ... and fortunately wins ... though others here will swear he didn't.]  Think of what image you want and select clothes that would present that.  I’d probably put this on at least your bio page … saying you have one.  If you want to look real professional, I’d have you wear a three-piece suit for that full-length shot on your bio page. If you want to present a warm friendly image, I’d wear a sweater.  If you want to present a hard-working image, I’d wear a suit minus the jacket, roll up the sleeves a bit, and your call on whether to wear the vest or not (in other words, if you’ve got a spare tire, wear a vest).  For all your photos, if you’re a "bit" overweight, suck in your gut for the shoot. As for your font … hmmm … I’d look into getting better stuff.  A bit more smooth. I’d switch the position of "Newsletter Archive" and "How To Grow your Successful business".  On the "How To…", you need to pick a capitalization scheme and stick with it. I’d get rid of the two red growth charts.  The one on the right also needs a headline … unless you really want just your name to be a headline. And, I cannot help myself and got to say this.  Mike, do you know any business that isn’t "growth oriented"???  :-)  *laugh* Well, those are just some off-the-cuff remarks. Good luck! Scott Jensen — Like a cure for A.I.D.S, Alzheimer, Parkinson, & Mad Cow Disease? Volunteer your computer for folding-protein research for when it’s idle. Go to http://www.distributedfolding.org/ to sign up your computer.

Response:

Looks good to me. Great testimonials. > I’ve been working on my web page for the past few days and have finally > pulled together a rough draft. [ ... ] > Other than that, have at it! What do you think? How can I improve the > page? > http://miketurco.com/snew

[ Excessive quoted text trimmed by moderator.  -JimL ]

Response:

> Seriously, I think you should keep the photo on all your pages.  One of the > biggest problems with websites is they’re WAY too impersonal.  Slapping a > mug on them enables people to connect with them.

Ironically, at about the same time you were posting this, we were having a discussion here on exactly the same point, prompted by some silly advertisements in our local Yellow Pages. Is there any value in mug-shots in advertisements, or are they on par with photos of the factory? David Ogilvie again: When the client moans and sighs Make his logo twice the size. If he still should prove refractory Show a picture of his factory. Only in the gravest cases Should you show the clients’ faces. Ogilvie’s point was not that there’s anything wrong with photos of clients and factories, just that customers are more interested in the product, and your advertising space is usually better used in other ways. Not such a big problem with web pages. A problem with mug shots is that perceptions are so hard to predict. There was a real estate agent here who put himself out of business using his face as a logo. He thought he looked honest; but most people thought he was the very epitome of the guy you wouldn’t buy a used car from.

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I’ve been working on my web page for the past few days and have finally pulled together a rough draft. I realize there are a lot of typo’s, perhaps a few broken links, etc. I thought I’d post the page on in a "secret" location on my site and get some early feedback. – I am doing some re-targeting of my services. New product development is doing OK, but I see a lot more opportunity, right now, in doing what I was focusing on a couple years back, which is computer consulting for businesses as well as office automation. – I consider the web page to be a second source of information for potential clients, but the fact is that I have gotten some good leads recently from my existing page, straight from the Internet, and there’s  nothing wrong with that! Actually, I’m not clear on what I would do different on the page, anyway, to address the difference between the two types of clients. My thought is that the page should just be good collateral material, and whether I introduce a potential customer to the page, or somebody happens across it themselves shouldn’t make a difference. – There are a couple of pages I would like to change but can’t, because I don’t want to screw myself on the search engine rankings. Specifically, the key drawer page and the armory database page have both brought in a couple of really good leads, from companies who found me on google. – I will mention it before somebody else does, I don’t like the fact that my mug is on every page. I realize that I have to come up with a new banner, and will then keep the current banner with my picture on just the home and about pages. – The "how to succeed" link on the right-hand side is going to go through some major revisions. I’m considering offering a coaching-type service for consultants. What I have there may not make much sense right now, as it isn’t targeted, and the information it provides seems out of place (for now). Other than that, have at it! What do you think? How can I improve the page? http://miketurco.com/snew Thanks, Mike

Response:

Has anyone heard anyting regarding the possible return of renissance Cruises? TIA —–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–==  Over 80,000 Newsgroups – 16 Different Servers! =—–

Response:

>Has anyone heard anyting regarding the possible return of renissance >Cruises?

Hi, Yes and there will be NO return of Renaissance Cruise Lines.  But if you would like to cash some of their rubber checks for me, let me know.  <:+( Best regards, Ray LIGHTHOUSE TRAVEL 800-719-9917 or 805-566-3905 http://www.lighthousetravel.com

Response:

> But if >you would like to cash some of their rubber checks for me, let me >know.  <:+(

Be patient … after all the secured creditors are paid you should get about 0.03 on the dollar … I have heard of only one of their ships sold they still have lots to liquidate … A pity too because I was set to take their Rome-Istanbul cruise … I had heard all great things about it .. In the Village …. I am not a number … I am a free man !!!!

Response:

>Be patient … after all the secured creditors are paid you should get about >0.03 on the dollar …

Hi, They owe much more than they can ever pay.  I will not even see 3 cents on the dollar.  Not enough for a cup of coffee (at least in Santa Barbara). <g> Best regards, Ray LIGHTHOUSE TRAVEL 800-719-9917 or 805-566-3905 http://www.lighthousetravel.com

Response:

> Yes and there will be NO return of Renaissance Cruise Lines.  But if > you would like to cash some of their rubber checks for me, let me > know.  <:+( > Best regards, > Ray

I thought you refused to SELL Ren cruises, so why would have have bounced checks from them?  You were one of Ren’s biggest detractors, comparing them to the devil for selling direct. Oh wait!  Don’t tell me that after all the the abuse you heaped on them over the years, you actually began selling their cruises when they made nice with the travel agent community.  Here I thought you had higher standards!  You just sold out for the higher than average COMMISSIONS they were offering.  How typical! I guess we should all feel badly for you, putting in all that time and effort to SELL your customers Ren cruises and then NOT getting paid your commissions.  Boo Hoo! Chuck…..

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Kind of interesting isn’t it. Ray bad mouthed Renaissance in this newsgroup every chance he got when the line only booking direct with passengers.  One of his biggest criticisms was their financial stability. Then Renaissance started paying hefty Travel agent commissions and Ray booked them as fast and as often as he could.  How fast his tune changed. Now, that they went under, he cries to us about it. Why’d he start booking them and jeopardizing the interests of the passengers even as Renaissance’s financial situation continued to deteriorate?  Think maybe Ray was more interested in the fat 15% commissions that the welfare of the traveling public? Just goes to show what these parasites are really about!

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Has anyone heard anyting regarding the possible return of renissance >Cruises? > Hi, > Yes and there will be NO return of Renaissance Cruise Lines.  But if > you would like to cash some of their rubber checks for me, let me > know.  <:+( > Best regards, > Ray > LIGHTHOUSE TRAVEL > 800-719-9917 or 805-566-3905 > http://www.lighthousetravel.com

Response:

I don’t think you are being fair to Ray.  I booked my Renaissance Cruise through Ray and he actually tried to talk me out of it in favor of other alternatives.  In the end we agreed that the Renaissnace Tahiti cruise was the best fit for me and he did a great job of booking the cruise and then sorting our some problems I had with cruise insurance.  And he certainly didn’t make any extra money there.     I’ve continued to use as my Cruise Agent. It was a fantastic cruise, best I’ve been on.  I wish Renassance were still around.  Ray, I and lots of other cruisers and travel agents would be much happier.  I’m even holding out hope for the rumor that somehow they will bring back the R3/R4 in Tahiti…

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Kind of interesting isn’t it. > Ray bad mouthed Renaissance in this newsgroup every chance he got when the > line only booking direct with passengers.  One of his biggest criticisms was > their financial stability. > Then Renaissance started paying hefty Travel agent commissions and Ray > booked them as fast and as often as he could.  How fast his tune changed. > Now, that they went under, he cries to us about it. > Why’d he start booking them and jeopardizing the interests of the passengers > even as Renaissance’s financial situation continued to deteriorate?  Think > maybe Ray was more interested in the fat 15% commissions that the welfare of > the traveling public? > Just goes to show what these parasites are really about! > >Has anyone heard anyting regarding the possible return of renissance > >Cruises? > Hi, > Yes and there will be NO return of Renaissance Cruise Lines.  But if > you would like to cash some of their rubber checks for me, let me > know.  <:+( > Best regards, > Ray > LIGHTHOUSE TRAVEL > 800-719-9917 or 805-566-3905 > http://www.lighthousetravel.com

Response:

Dean, I too miss Renaissance.  My family sailed them several times in Europe, Africa, the Far East and of course the R3 to French Polynesia.  Renaissance was innovative in many ways and a tremendous value.  Although the experience was only about 1/3 as good as our Seabourn or Silversea cruses, we paid only 15% of the Seabourn/Silversea cost. One of the reasons Renaissance failed (albeit not the principal reason) was the slander campaign launched against them by Travel Agents such as Ray. Day in and day out we heard nothing but criticism and negative tirades about Renaissance on this newsgroup and that reputable Travel Agents would NEVER book Renaissance. Then Renaissance started paying hefty commissions and virtually every Travel Agent (including Ray) jumped on the Renaissance bandwagon.  You are not the only one he booked.  I’m sorry Dean, but in my view if one is a principled professional service provider, there are times that ya gotta look past the commission and say no. Clients infrequently ask me to perform services that, in my professional opinion, run contrary to their better interests, or are against my own standard of quality, professional integrity or ethics.  If they persist, I respectfully inform them that I will not accede to their demands and that they should find someone else.  I do this even though it means I will forfeit my fee and may permanently loose the client.  But you’re either a professional or you’re not. If a true service professional believed half of what Ray espoused on this site about Renaissance, he would have refused to book you on Renaissance under any circumstances. Oops, there I go again using "quality, professional integrity and ethics" in the same message in which I talk about Cruise Travel Agents — some day I’ll learn Good luck Paul

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I don’t think you are being fair to Ray.  I booked my Renaissance Cruise > through Ray and he actually tried to talk me out of it in favor of other > alternatives.  In the end we agreed that the Renaissnace Tahiti cruise was > the best fit for me and he did a great job of booking the cruise and then > sorting our some problems I had with cruise insurance.  And he certainly > didn’t make any extra money there.     I’ve continued to use as my Cruise > Agent. > It was a fantastic cruise, best I’ve been on.  I wish Renassance were still > around.  Ray, I and lots of other cruisers and travel agents would be much > happier.  I’m even holding out hope for the rumor that somehow they will > bring back the R3/R4 in Tahiti… > Kind of interesting isn’t it. > Ray bad mouthed Renaissance in this newsgroup every chance he got when the > line only booking direct with passengers.  One of his biggest criticisms > was > their financial stability. > Then Renaissance started paying hefty Travel agent commissions and Ray > booked them as fast and as often as he could.  How fast his tune changed. > Now, that they went under, he cries to us about it. > Why’d he start booking them and jeopardizing the interests of the > passengers > even as Renaissance’s financial situation continued to deteriorate? Think > maybe Ray was more interested in the fat 15% commissions that the welfare > of > the traveling public? > Just goes to show what these parasites are really about! > > >Has anyone heard anyting regarding the possible return of renissance > > >Cruises? > > Hi, > > Yes and there will be NO return of Renaissance Cruise Lines.  But if > > you would like to cash some of their rubber checks for me, let me > > know.  <:+( > > Best regards, > > Ray > > LIGHTHOUSE TRAVEL > > 800-719-9917 or 805-566-3905 > > http://www.lighthousetravel.com

Response:

>If a true service professional believed half of what Ray espoused on this >site about Renaissance, he would have refused to book you on Renaissance >under any circumstances.

Hi Everyone, I know most on this news group knows about Slinsky’s baseless tirades regarding travel agents.  Just to correct  his false and misleading statements, I did refuse to book Ren until they changed their anti-consumer policies.  When clients approached me, I did refuse to take the bookings.   When Ren changed their anti-consumer policies, I did book my clients after warning them of the financial situation at Ren.  I made sure my clients had 3rd party insurance protection in case of Ren’s demise.  If they were not willing to take the insurance, I would not take the bookings.  Due to my consortium affiliations my commission structure never changed with Ren from the beginning to the end.   Best regards, Ray LIGHTHOUSE TRAVEL 800-719-9917 or 805-566-3905 http://www.lighthousetravel.com

Response:

>I know most on this news group knows about Slinsky’s baseless tirades >regarding travel agents.

I too am not a TA fan … but I will agree his tirades are uncalled for … TA’s are fine for most people and often for just a little more you get a lot of service … I have been to TA’s to make arrangements and they can do it ok … but I have found few who will do a lot of searching to save money for one who is flexible …Once I was told the minimum price was $X and I found $X less 35% myself in about 5 minutes … Occasionally you will find a bad TA like a bad waitress or bad accountant or ethical lawyer …But one should not demonize the entire profession for a bad actor or two … In the Village …. I am not a number … I am a free man !!!!

Response:

Dear Ray, 1.    Thank you for misspelling my name, it reaffirms my opinion of the quality of your work and your attention to detail. 2.    As to your response, nice try.  You completely ignored the essence of my post — i.e. much of your Renaissance criticism was directed at their financial stability.  You instead try to redirect the discussion to Renaissance’s change in "anti-consumer policies" .  The truth is Ray that Renaissance’s financial stability continued to dramatically deteriorate after they changed their policies and you knew it.  Yet, once they started paying Travel Agent commissions, you significantly curtailed your Renaissance attacks on this newsgroup and booked them. My position remains unchanged, professionals wouldn’t do that.  They would look past their commissions and not jeopardize the well being of clients. That’s why they are professionals. You failed to fulfill this obligation to your clients.  As a direct result you booking travelers on Renaissance many people’s lives were inconvenienced and some may never recover the lost opportunity. Another trait of a professional is accepting accountability for their actions good and bad.  They don’t try to weasel word their way out of it. Paul

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->If a true service professional believed half of what Ray espoused on this >site about Renaissance, he would have refused to book you on Renaissance >under any circumstances. > Hi Everyone, > I know most on this news group knows about Slinsky’s baseless tirades > regarding travel agents.  Just to correct  his false and misleading > statements, I did refuse to book Ren until they changed their > anti-consumer policies.  When clients approached me, I did refuse to > take the bookings.   When Ren changed their anti-consumer policies, I > did book my clients after warning them of the financial situation at > Ren.  I made sure my clients had 3rd party insurance protection in > case of Ren’s demise.  If they were not willing to take the insurance, > I would not take the bookings.  Due to my consortium affiliations my > commission structure never changed with Ren from the beginning to the > end. > Best regards, > Ray > LIGHTHOUSE TRAVEL > 800-719-9917 or 805-566-3905 > http://www.lighthousetravel.com

Response:

> 2.    As to your response, nice try.  You completely ignored the essence of > my post — i.e. much of your Renaissance criticism was directed at their > financial stability.  You instead try to redirect the discussion to > Renaissance’s change in "anti-consumer policies" .  The truth is Ray that > Renaissance’s financial stability continued to dramatically deteriorate > after they changed their policies and you knew it.  Yet, once they started > paying Travel Agent commissions, you significantly curtailed your > Renaissance attacks on this newsgroup and booked them.

Sorry Paul, but you are wrong.  Even after they started paying commissions, Ray invariably recommended that people take out travel insurance and would not book Renaissance without it.  I remember he would always chime in on this subject if someone talked about Renaissance cruises.  Always noted that they might be having financial trouble. He warned people of the risks, and after warning them, if they insisted, he treated them like adults and let them take the risk with their time and convenience (which he was not able to quantify) but not with their mone (which he was) I don’t believe people lost money if they booked with Ray.  Ray did, but his clients did not. Your statement is just incorrect. Ray, he is really not worth responding to. Julie

Response:

Paul(BOTW): You say that you have clients, etc. ? What is your profession, if we may respectfully ask? Angelica

Response:

His profession is troll!  I’m not sure what it pays. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Paul(BOTW): > You say that you have clients, etc. ? What is your profession, if we may > respectfully ask? > Angelica

Response:

Juliana You just can’t throw up your hands and say "well I warned them, I tried".  A true professional would say politely, "I’m sorry, but I will not book you on that cruse line". I never said any of Ray’s clients lost money.  To Ray’s credit, he did his best to ensure that his clients were covered with cruise protection insurance.  Although they didn’t loose money, many were severely inconvenienced and some irreparably so. As for Ray loosing money.  He made a bad business decision.  Now he and his clients are paying the price for his bad judgment. What I don’t understand is why Ray’s business insurance does not cover him against supplier non-performance, almost all decent professional service policies do (mine certainly does).  Unless his insurance company is tying this to 9/11 and calling it a "Force Majure" event, he should be O.K. Paul – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> 2.    As to your response, nice try.  You completely ignored the essence of > my post — i.e. much of your Renaissance criticism was directed at their > financial stability.  You instead try to redirect the discussion to > Renaissance’s change in "anti-consumer policies" .  The truth is Ray that > Renaissance’s financial stability continued to dramatically deteriorate > after they changed their policies and you knew it.  Yet, once they started > paying Travel Agent commissions, you significantly curtailed your > Renaissance attacks on this newsgroup and booked them. > Sorry Paul, but you are wrong.  Even after they started paying commissions, > Ray invariably recommended that people take out travel insurance and would > not book Renaissance without it.  I remember he would always chime in on this > subject if someone talked about Renaissance cruises.  Always noted that they > might be having financial trouble. > He warned people of the risks, and after warning them, if they insisted, > he treated them like adults and let them take the risk with their time and > convenience (which he was not able to quantify) but not with their mone > (which he was) > I don’t believe people lost money if they booked with Ray.  Ray did, but his > clients did not. > Your statement is just incorrect. > Ray, he is really not worth responding to. > Julie

Response:

I am a semi-retired business development consultant for the aerospace industry

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Paul(BOTW): > You say that you have clients, etc. ? What is your profession, if we may > respectfully ask? > Angelica

Response:

Oh! I thought it was the back end of a horse. June

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> His profession is troll!  I’m not sure what it pays. > Paul(BOTW): > You say that you have clients, etc. ? What is your profession, if we may > respectfully ask? > Angelica

Response:

> You just can’t throw up your hands and say "well I warned them, I tried".  A > true professional would say politely, "I’m sorry, but I will not book you on > that cruse line".

I’m sorry, I disagree. Ray’s clients are adults, and they are capable of assessing risk for themselves.  And what is major inconvenience to one client might be minor inconvenience to another.  For myself, if I was booked on  a cruise and it was cancelled, I would be able to pretty easily realign my vacation to cruise at another time.  For others this would be a significant problem.  If the cruise was one I really would like to go on (like, for example, French Polynesia) I might take that chance, knowingly. For another individual, they might be stuck with a vacation week and unable to go on a dream vacation; for them the risk would be too high. It is clear from another poster, that Ray only booked Rennaissance after a significant discussion with the traveller to discuss this kind of thing.  He treated the client like an adult who is able to make their own decision.   I also work as a consultant, and if I tried to tell my clients that I would not do something because I thought they should not take that level of risk, I’d be out on a rail, of almost any company.  We inform them of risk if we see it, we document it, and then we accept the decisions that they make. That is professional behavior.  Not parenting the client, but respecting them and giving them full in formation but letting them decide Julie

Response:

Julie, We’ve beat poor Ray to death.  Let’s just say we disagree on what a professional consultant’s responsibilities are.  Now that I see your approach to consulting I understand why.  To me, you’re more like a subcontractor that a consultant.  You advise then do what your told regardless or the consequences. Unlike you, I find most clients are grateful that I won’t work or accept a fee for efforts that I am convinced ran contrary to their interests or clash with my professional standards (conflict of interest, ethics, quality, etc.).  I believe this enhances my professional reputation instead of "being out on a rail".  Of course if I’m informed that there are undisclosed strategic issues involved (often happens), then that’s a different story. I guess we have a differing standards.  You’ll do anything anyone tells you for money and I won’t.  But that’s what makes the world go round isn’t it. Paul BTW:  Are you at George Mason? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> You just can’t throw up your hands and say "well I warned them, I tried".  A > true professional would say politely, "I’m sorry, but I will not book you on > that cruse line". > I’m sorry, I disagree. Ray’s clients are adults, and they are capable of > assessing risk for themselves.  And what is major inconvenience to one > client might be minor inconvenience to another.  For myself, if I was > booked on  a cruise and it was cancelled, I would be able to pretty easily > realign my vacation to cruise at another time.  For others this would be > a significant problem.  If the cruise was one I really would like to go on > (like, for example, French Polynesia) I might take that chance, knowingly. > For another individual, they might be stuck with a vacation week and unable to > go on a dream vacation; for them the risk would be too high. > It is clear from another poster, that Ray only booked Rennaissance after a > significant discussion with the traveller to discuss this kind of thing. He > treated the client like an adult who is able to make their own decision. > I also work as a consultant, and if I tried to tell my clients that I would > not do something because I thought they should not take that level of risk, > I’d be out on a rail, of almost any company.  We inform them of risk if we > see it, we document it, and then we accept the decisions that they make. > That is professional behavior.  Not parenting the client, but respecting > them and giving them full in formation but letting them decide > Julie

Response:

> I guess we have a differing standards.  You’ll do anything anyone tells you > for money and I won’t.  But that’s what makes the world go round isn’t it.

Not exactly.  But once I have contracted to do something, I do let the client make the key decisions.  I would not do something illegal, unethical, or truly suicidal.  But all decisions involve some level of risk, from the most minimal to truly overwhelming.  The vast majority of risk is well in the middle of those two extremes.  In that central range I let my clients, who know the business best, determine what risks are acceptable and which are not.  They know their business, their goals, and their feelings best. > BTW:  Are you at George Mason?

Not really.  I volunteer time to create a web page for United Campus Ministries of Northern Virginia, and GMU used to give them space on computers, so I have an account there.  I mostly use it for reading e-mail via tin right now, since we are in the process of moving the web page to a different location. I am, however, GMU alumni twice over.  (BA English 1986m MS Information Systems 1997). Julie – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > You just can’t throw up your hands and say "well I warned them, I > tried".  A > > true professional would say politely, "I’m sorry, but I will not book > you on > > that cruse line". > I’m sorry, I disagree. Ray’s clients are adults, and they are capable of > assessing risk for themselves.  And what is major inconvenience to one > client might be minor inconvenience to another.  For myself, if I was > booked on  a cruise and it was cancelled, I would be able to pretty easily > realign my vacation to cruise at another time.  For others this would be > a significant problem.  If the cruise was one I really would like to go on > (like, for example, French Polynesia) I might take that chance, knowingly. > For another individual, they might be stuck with a vacation week and > unable to > go on a dream vacation; for them the risk would be too high. > It is clear from another poster, that Ray only booked Rennaissance after a > significant discussion with the traveller to discuss this kind of thing. > He > treated the client like an adult who is able to make their own decision. > I also work as a consultant, and if I tried to tell my clients that I > would > not do something because I thought they should not take that level of > risk, > I’d be out on a rail, of almost any company.  We inform them of risk if we > see it, we document it, and then we accept the decisions that they make. > That is professional behavior.  Not parenting the client, but respecting > them and giving them full in formation but letting them decide > Julie

Response:

> > I guess we have a differing standards.  You’ll do anything anyone tells you > for money and I won’t.  But that’s what makes the world go round isn’t it. > Not exactly.  But once I have contracted to do something, I do let the client > make the key decisions.  I would not do something illegal, unethical, or > truly suicidal.  But all decisions involve some level of risk, from the most > minimal to truly overwhelming.  The vast majority of risk is well in the middle > of those two extremes.  In that central range I let my clients, who know the > business best, determine what risks are acceptable and which are not.  They > know their business, their goals, and their feelings best. > Julie

This presents yet another question when it comes to "professional travel agents". Just WHO is their "client"? Since their income is derived from the CRUISE LINE (Ray claims that he is paid his commission from the cruise line and NOT the "client"), isn’t he (they) actually working for the CRUISE LINE?  Sine there is no exchange of "consideration" between the client and the T/A, no legal contract exists (remember, the money the client pays the T/A goes DIRECTLY to the cruiseline, according to Ray). So, without "consideration", how can a legally binding contract exist between T/A and client?  Cruise line and client have a contract.  T/A and cruise line have a contract.  But T/A and client? Makes one go Hmmmmmmmmmmm……. Chuck Want to save some money on your next cruise?  Check out: www.cruisequick.com

Response:

> This presents yet another question when it comes to "professional travel > agents". > Just WHO is their "client"? > So, without "consideration", how can a legally binding contract exist > between T/A and client?  Cruise line and client have a contract.  T/A > and cruise line have a contract.  But T/A and client? > Makes one go Hmmmmmmmmmmm……. > Want to save some money on your next cruise?  Check out: > www.cruisequick.com

Chuck, Who is the client of cruisequick?  Who pays them???? And wonder if this e-mail isn’t just a teeny tiny bit hypocritical? Julie Julie

Response:

What does any of this have to do with Renaissance Cruise Line? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> This presents yet another question when it comes to "professional travel > agents". > Just WHO is their "client"? > So, without "consideration", how can a legally binding contract exist > between T/A and client?  Cruise line and client have a contract.  T/A > and cruise line have a contract.  But T/A and client? > Makes one go Hmmmmmmmmmmm……. > Want to save some money on your next cruise?  Check out: > www.cruisequick.com >Chuck, >Who is the client of cruisequick?  Who pays them???? >And wonder if this e-mail isn’t just a teeny tiny bit hypocritical? >Julie >Julie

Response:

>This presents yet another question when it comes to "professional travel >agents". >Just WHO is their "client"?

The client is "the booking" or the deal … All are happy when the deal works out … The cruise line – happy just to have a cabin sold … The TA – happy to have made the deal … and the customer – happy to be going on a vacation he wants … Most times it takes very little to make the cruiseline and the TA happy … the customer is the one with the most requirements (AND RIGHTLY SO) to be happy thereby making the DEAL a success … In the Village …. I am not a number … I am a free man !!!!

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Julie, > We’ve beat poor Ray to death.  Let’s just say we disagree on what a > professional consultant’s responsibilities are.  Now that I see your > approach to consulting I understand why.  To me, you’re more like a > subcontractor that a consultant.  You advise then do what your told > regardless or the consequences. > Unlike you, I find most clients are grateful that I won’t work or accept a > fee for efforts that I am convinced ran contrary to their interests or clash > with my professional standards (conflict of interest, ethics, quality, > etc.).  I believe this enhances my professional reputation instead of "being > out on a rail".  Of course if I’m informed that there are undisclosed > strategic issues involved (often happens), then that’s a different story. > I guess we have a differing standards.  You’ll do anything anyone tells you > for money and I won’t.  But that’s what makes the world go round isn’t it. > Paul

But then, I don’t believe Julie is a washed up Beltway bandit that no one wants to hire like you are, is she?  Semi-retired is a euphonysm around here for umemployable. Diane – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> BTW:  Are you at George Mason? > > You just can’t throw up your hands and say "well I warned them, I > tried".  A > > true professional would say politely, "I’m sorry, but I will not book > you on > > that cruse line". > I’m sorry, I disagree. Ray’s clients are adults, and they are capable of > assessing risk for themselves.  And what is major inconvenience to one > client might be minor inconvenience to another.  For myself, if I was > booked on  a cruise and it was cancelled, I would be able to pretty easily > realign my vacation to cruise at another time.  For others this would be > a significant problem.  If the cruise was one I really would like to go on > (like, for example, French Polynesia) I might take that chance, knowingly. > For another individual, they might be stuck with a vacation week and > unable to > go on a dream vacation; for them the risk would be too high. > It is clear from another poster, that Ray only booked Rennaissance after a > significant discussion with the traveller to discuss this kind of thing. > He > treated the client like an adult who is able to make their own decision. > I also work as a consultant, and if I tried to tell my clients that I > would > not do something because I thought they should not take that level of > risk, > I’d be out on a rail, of almost any company.  We inform them of risk if we > see it, we document it, and then we accept the decisions that they make. > That is professional behavior.  Not parenting the client, but respecting > them and giving them full in formation but letting them decide > Julie

Response:

Has anyone heard anyting regarding the possible return of renissance Cruises? TIA —–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–==  Over 80,000 Newsgroups – 16 Different Servers! =—–

Response:

>Has anyone heard anyting regarding the possible return of renissance >Cruises?

Hi, Yes and there will be NO return of Renaissance Cruise Lines.  But if you would like to cash some of their rubber checks for me, let me know.  <:+( Best regards, Ray LIGHTHOUSE TRAVEL 800-719-9917 or 805-566-3905 http://www.lighthousetravel.com

Response:

> But if >you would like to cash some of their rubber checks for me, let me >know.  <:+(

Be patient … after all the secured creditors are paid you should get about 0.03 on the dollar … I have heard of only one of their ships sold they still have lots to liquidate … A pity too because I was set to take their Rome-Istanbul cruise … I had heard all great things about it .. In the Village …. I am not a number … I am a free man !!!!

Response:

>Be patient … after all the secured creditors are paid you should get about >0.03 on the dollar …

Hi, They owe much more than they can ever pay.  I will not even see 3 cents on the dollar.  Not enough for a cup of coffee (at least in Santa Barbara). <g> Best regards, Ray LIGHTHOUSE TRAVEL 800-719-9917 or 805-566-3905 http://www.lighthousetravel.com

Response:

> Yes and there will be NO return of Renaissance Cruise Lines.  But if > you would like to cash some of their rubber checks for me, let me > know.  <:+( > Best regards, > Ray

I thought you refused to SELL Ren cruises, so why would have have bounced checks from them?  You were one of Ren’s biggest detractors, comparing them to the devil for selling direct. Oh wait!  Don’t tell me that after all the the abuse you heaped on them over the years, you actually began selling their cruises when they made nice with the travel agent community.  Here I thought you had higher standards!  You just sold out for the higher than average COMMISSIONS they were offering.  How typical! I guess we should all feel badly for you, putting in all that time and effort to SELL your customers Ren cruises and then NOT getting paid your commissions.  Boo Hoo! Chuck…..

Response:

Kind of interesting isn’t it. Ray bad mouthed Renaissance in this newsgroup every chance he got when the line only booking direct with passengers.  One of his biggest criticisms was their financial stability. Then Renaissance started paying hefty Travel agent commissions and Ray booked them as fast and as often as he could.  How fast his tune changed. Now, that they went under, he cries to us about it. Why’d he start booking them and jeopardizing the interests of the passengers even as Renaissance’s financial situation continued to deteriorate?  Think maybe Ray was more interested in the fat 15% commissions that the welfare of the traveling public? Just goes to show what these parasites are really about!

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Has anyone heard anyting regarding the possible return of renissance >Cruises? > Hi, > Yes and there will be NO return of Renaissance Cruise Lines.  But if > you would like to cash some of their rubber checks for me, let me > know.  <:+( > Best regards, > Ray > LIGHTHOUSE TRAVEL > 800-719-9917 or 805-566-3905 > http://www.lighthousetravel.com

Response:

I don’t think you are being fair to Ray.  I booked my Renaissance Cruise through Ray and he actually tried to talk me out of it in favor of other alternatives.  In the end we agreed that the Renaissnace Tahiti cruise was the best fit for me and he did a great job of booking the cruise and then sorting our some problems I had with cruise insurance.  And he certainly didn’t make any extra money there.     I’ve continued to use as my Cruise Agent. It was a fantastic cruise, best I’ve been on.  I wish Renassance were still around.  Ray, I and lots of other cruisers and travel agents would be much happier.  I’m even holding out hope for the rumor that somehow they will bring back the R3/R4 in Tahiti…

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Kind of interesting isn’t it. > Ray bad mouthed Renaissance in this newsgroup every chance he got when the > line only booking direct with passengers.  One of his biggest criticisms was > their financial stability. > Then Renaissance started paying hefty Travel agent commissions and Ray > booked them as fast and as often as he could.  How fast his tune changed. > Now, that they went under, he cries to us about it. > Why’d he start booking them and jeopardizing the interests of the passengers > even as Renaissance’s financial situation continued to deteriorate?  Think > maybe Ray was more interested in the fat 15% commissions that the welfare of > the traveling public? > Just goes to show what these parasites are really about! > >Has anyone heard anyting regarding the possible return of renissance > >Cruises? > Hi, > Yes and there will be NO return of Renaissance Cruise Lines.  But if > you would like to cash some of their rubber checks for me, let me > know.  <:+( > Best regards, > Ray > LIGHTHOUSE TRAVEL > 800-719-9917 or 805-566-3905 > http://www.lighthousetravel.com

Response:

Dean, I too miss Renaissance.  My family sailed them several times in Europe, Africa, the Far East and of course the R3 to French Polynesia.  Renaissance was innovative in many ways and a tremendous value.  Although the experience was only about 1/3 as good as our Seabourn or Silversea cruses, we paid only 15% of the Seabourn/Silversea cost. One of the reasons Renaissance failed (albeit not the principal reason) was the slander campaign launched against them by Travel Agents such as Ray. Day in and day out we heard nothing but criticism and negative tirades about Renaissance on this newsgroup and that reputable Travel Agents would NEVER book Renaissance. Then Renaissance started paying hefty commissions and virtually every Travel Agent (including Ray) jumped on the Renaissance bandwagon.  You are not the only one he booked.  I’m sorry Dean, but in my view if one is a principled professional service provider, there are times that ya gotta look past the commission and say no. Clients infrequently ask me to perform services that, in my professional opinion, run contrary to their better interests, or are against my own standard of quality, professional integrity or ethics.  If they persist, I respectfully inform them that I will not accede to their demands and that they should find someone else.  I do this even though it means I will forfeit my fee and may permanently loose the client.  But you’re either a professional or you’re not. If a true service professional believed half of what Ray espoused on this site about Renaissance, he would have refused to book you on Renaissance under any circumstances. Oops, there I go again using "quality, professional integrity and ethics" in the same message in which I talk about Cruise Travel Agents — some day I’ll learn Good luck Paul

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I don’t think you are being fair to Ray.  I booked my Renaissance Cruise > through Ray and he actually tried to talk me out of it in favor of other > alternatives.  In the end we agreed that the Renaissnace Tahiti cruise was > the best fit for me and he did a great job of booking the cruise and then > sorting our some problems I had with cruise insurance.  And he certainly > didn’t make any extra money there.     I’ve continued to use as my Cruise > Agent. > It was a fantastic cruise, best I’ve been on.  I wish Renassance were still > around.  Ray, I and lots of other cruisers and travel agents would be much > happier.  I’m even holding out hope for the rumor that somehow they will > bring back the R3/R4 in Tahiti… > Kind of interesting isn’t it. > Ray bad mouthed Renaissance in this newsgroup every chance he got when the > line only booking direct with passengers.  One of his biggest criticisms > was > their financial stability. > Then Renaissance started paying hefty Travel agent commissions and Ray > booked them as fast and as often as he could.  How fast his tune changed. > Now, that they went under, he cries to us about it. > Why’d he start booking them and jeopardizing the interests of the > passengers > even as Renaissance’s financial situation continued to deteriorate? Think > maybe Ray was more interested in the fat 15% commissions that the welfare > of > the traveling public? > Just goes to show what these parasites are really about! > > >Has anyone heard anyting regarding the possible return of renissance > > >Cruises? > > Hi, > > Yes and there will be NO return of Renaissance Cruise Lines.  But if > > you would like to cash some of their rubber checks for me, let me > > know.  <:+( > > Best regards, > > Ray > > LIGHTHOUSE TRAVEL > > 800-719-9917 or 805-566-3905 > > http://www.lighthousetravel.com

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>If a true service professional believed half of what Ray espoused on this >site about Renaissance, he would have refused to book you on Renaissance >under any circumstances.

Hi Everyone, I know most on this news group knows about Slinsky’s baseless tirades regarding travel agents.  Just to correct  his false and misleading statements, I did refuse to book Ren until they changed their anti-consumer policies.  When clients approached me, I did refuse to take the bookings.   When Ren changed their anti-consumer policies, I did book my clients after warning them of the financial situation at Ren.  I made sure my clients had 3rd party insurance protection in case of Ren’s demise.  If they were not willing to take the insurance, I would not take the bookings.  Due to my consortium affiliations my commission structure never changed with Ren from the beginning to the end.   Best regards, Ray LIGHTHOUSE TRAVEL 800-719-9917 or 805-566-3905 http://www.lighthousetravel.com

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>I know most on this news group knows about Slinsky’s baseless tirades >regarding travel agents.

I too am not a TA fan … but I will agree his tirades are uncalled for … TA’s are fine for most people and often for just a little more you get a lot of service … I have been to TA’s to make arrangements and they can do it ok … but I have found few who will do a lot of searching to save money for one who is flexible …Once I was told the minimum price was $X and I found $X less 35% myself in about 5 minutes … Occasionally you will find a bad TA like a bad waitress or bad accountant or ethical lawyer …But one should not demonize the entire profession for a bad actor or two … In the Village …. I am not a number … I am a free man !!!!

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Dear Ray, 1.    Thank you for misspelling my name, it reaffirms my opinion of the quality of your work and your attention to detail. 2.    As to your response, nice try.  You completely ignored the essence of my post — i.e. much of your Renaissance criticism was directed at their financial stability.  You instead try to redirect the discussion to Renaissance’s change in "anti-consumer policies" .  The truth is Ray that Renaissance’s financial stability continued to dramatically deteriorate after they changed their policies and you knew it.  Yet, once they started paying Travel Agent commissions, you significantly curtailed your Renaissance attacks on this newsgroup and booked them. My position remains unchanged, professionals wouldn’t do that.  They would look past their commissions and not jeopardize the well being of clients. That’s why they are professionals. You failed to fulfill this obligation to your clients.  As a direct result you booking travelers on Renaissance many people’s lives were inconvenienced and some may never recover the lost opportunity. Another trait of a professional is accepting accountability for their actions good and bad.  They don’t try to weasel word their way out of it. Paul

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->If a true service professional believed half of what Ray espoused on this >site about Renaissance, he would have refused to book you on Renaissance >under any circumstances. > Hi Everyone, > I know most on this news group knows about Slinsky’s baseless tirades > regarding travel agents.  Just to correct  his false and misleading > statements, I did refuse to book Ren until they changed their > anti-consumer policies.  When clients approached me, I did refuse to > take the bookings.   When Ren changed their anti-consumer policies, I > did book my clients after warning them of the financial situation at > Ren.  I made sure my clients had 3rd party insurance protection in > case of Ren’s demise.  If they were not willing to take the insurance, > I would not take the bookings.  Due to my consortium affiliations my > commission structure never changed with Ren from the beginning to the > end. > Best regards, > Ray > LIGHTHOUSE TRAVEL > 800-719-9917 or 805-566-3905 > http://www.lighthousetravel.com

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> 2.    As to your response, nice try.  You completely ignored the essence of > my post — i.e. much of your Renaissance criticism was directed at their > financial stability.  You instead try to redirect the discussion to > Renaissance’s change in "anti-consumer policies" .  The truth is Ray that > Renaissance’s financial stability continued to dramatically deteriorate > after they changed their policies and you knew it.  Yet, once they started > paying Travel Agent commissions, you significantly curtailed your > Renaissance attacks on this newsgroup and booked them.

Sorry Paul, but you are wrong.  Even after they started paying commissions, Ray invariably recommended that people take out travel insurance and would not book Renaissance without it.  I remember he would always chime in on this subject if someone talked about Renaissance cruises.  Always noted that they might be having financial trouble. He warned people of the risks, and after warning them, if they insisted, he treated them like adults and let them take the risk with their time and convenience (which he was not able to quantify) but not with their mone (which he was) I don’t believe people lost money if they booked with Ray.  Ray did, but his clients did not. Your statement is just incorrect. Ray, he is really not worth responding to. Julie

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Paul(BOTW): You say that you have clients, etc. ? What is your profession, if we may respectfully ask? Angelica

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His profession is troll!  I’m not sure what it pays. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Paul(BOTW): > You say that you have clients, etc. ? What is your profession, if we may > respectfully ask? > Angelica

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Juliana You just can’t throw up your hands and say "well I warned them, I tried".  A true professional would say politely, "I’m sorry, but I will not book you on that cruse line". I never said any of Ray’s clients lost money.  To Ray’s credit, he did his best to ensure that his clients were covered with cruise protection insurance.  Although they didn’t loose money, many were severely inconvenienced and some irreparably so. As for Ray loosing money.  He made a bad business decision.  Now he and his clients are paying the price for his bad judgment. What I don’t understand is why Ray’s business insurance does not cover him against supplier non-performance, almost all decent professional service policies do (mine certainly does).  Unless his insurance company is tying this to 9/11 and calling it a "Force Majure" event, he should be O.K. Paul – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> 2.    As to your response, nice try.  You completely ignored the essence of > my post — i.e. much of your Renaissance criticism was directed at their > financial stability.  You instead try to redirect the discussion to > Renaissance’s change in "anti-consumer policies" .  The truth is Ray that > Renaissance’s financial stability continued to dramatically deteriorate > after they changed their policies and you knew it.  Yet, once they started > paying Travel Agent commissions, you significantly curtailed your > Renaissance attacks on this newsgroup and booked them. > Sorry Paul, but you are wrong.  Even after they started paying commissions, > Ray invariably recommended that people take out travel insurance and would > not book Renaissance without it.  I remember he would always chime in on this > subject if someone talked about Renaissance cruises.  Always noted that they > might be having financial trouble. > He warned people of the risks, and after warning them, if they insisted, > he treated them like adults and let them take the risk with their time and > convenience (which he was not able to quantify) but not with their mone > (which he was) > I don’t believe people lost money if they booked with Ray.  Ray did, but his > clients did not. > Your statement is just incorrect. > Ray, he is really not worth responding to. > Julie

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I am a semi-retired business development consultant for the aerospace industry

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Paul(BOTW): > You say that you have clients, etc. ? What is your profession, if we may > respectfully ask? > Angelica

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Oh! I thought it was the back end of a horse. June

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> His profession is troll!  I’m not sure what it pays. > Paul(BOTW): > You say that you have clients, etc. ? What is your profession, if we may > respectfully ask? > Angelica

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> You just can’t throw up your hands and say "well I warned them, I tried".  A > true professional would say politely, "I’m sorry, but I will not book you on > that cruse line".

I’m sorry, I disagree. Ray’s clients are adults, and they are capable of assessing risk for themselves.  And what is major inconvenience to one client might be minor inconvenience to another.  For myself, if I was booked on  a cruise and it was cancelled, I would be able to pretty easily realign my vacation to cruise at another time.  For others this would be a significant problem.  If the cruise was one I really would like to go on (like, for example, French Polynesia) I might take that chance, knowingly. For another individual, they might be stuck with a vacation week and unable to go on a dream vacation; for them the risk would be too high. It is clear from another poster, that Ray only booked Rennaissance after a significant discussion with the traveller to discuss this kind of thing.  He treated the client like an adult who is able to make their own decision.   I also work as a consultant, and if I tried to tell my clients that I would not do something because I thought they should not take that level of risk, I’d be out on a rail, of almost any company.  We inform them of risk if we see it, we document it, and then we accept the decisions that they make. That is professional behavior.  Not parenting the client, but respecting them and giving them full in formation but letting them decide Julie

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Julie, We’ve beat poor Ray to death.  Let’s just say we disagree on what a professional consultant’s responsibilities are.  Now that I see your approach to consulting I understand why.  To me, you’re more like a subcontractor that a consultant.  You advise then do what your told regardless or the consequences. Unlike you, I find most clients are grateful that I won’t work or accept a fee for efforts that I am convinced ran contrary to their interests or clash with my professional standards (conflict of interest, ethics, quality, etc.).  I believe this enhances my professional reputation instead of "being out on a rail".  Of course if I’m informed that there are undisclosed strategic issues involved (often happens), then that’s a different story. I guess we have a differing standards.  You’ll do anything anyone tells you for money and I won’t.  But that’s what makes the world go round isn’t it. Paul BTW:  Are you at George Mason? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> You just can’t throw up your hands and say "well I warned them, I tried".  A > true professional would say politely, "I’m sorry, but I will not book you on > that cruse line". > I’m sorry, I disagree. Ray’s clients are adults, and they are capable of > assessing risk for themselves.  And what is major inconvenience to one > client might be minor inconvenience to another.  For myself, if I was > booked on  a cruise and it was cancelled, I would be able to pretty easily > realign my vacation to cruise at another time.  For others this would be > a significant problem.  If the cruise was one I really would like to go on > (like, for example, French Polynesia) I might take that chance, knowingly. > For another individual, they might be stuck with a vacation week and unable to > go on a dream vacation; for them the risk would be too high. > It is clear from another poster, that Ray only booked Rennaissance after a > significant discussion with the traveller to discuss this kind of thing. He > treated the client like an adult who is able to make their own decision. > I also work as a consultant, and if I tried to tell my clients that I would > not do something because I thought they should not take that level of risk, > I’d be out on a rail, of almost any company.  We inform them of risk if we > see it, we document it, and then we accept the decisions that they make. > That is professional behavior.  Not parenting the client, but respecting > them and giving them full in formation but letting them decide > Julie

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> I guess we have a differing standards.  You’ll do anything anyone tells you > for money and I won’t.  But that’s what makes the world go round isn’t it.

Not exactly.  But once I have contracted to do something, I do let the client make the key decisions.  I would not do something illegal, unethical, or truly suicidal.  But all decisions involve some level of risk, from the most minimal to truly overwhelming.  The vast majority of risk is well in the middle of those two extremes.  In that central range I let my clients, who know the business best, determine what risks are acceptable and which are not.  They know their business, their goals, and their feelings best. > BTW:  Are you at George Mason?

Not really.  I volunteer time to create a web page for United Campus Ministries of Northern Virginia, and GMU used to give them space on computers, so I have an account there.  I mostly use it for reading e-mail via tin right now, since we are in the process of moving the web page to a different location. I am, however, GMU alumni twice over.  (BA English 1986m MS Information Systems 1997). Julie – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > You just can’t throw up your hands and say "well I warned them, I > tried".  A > > true professional would say politely, "I’m sorry, but I will not book > you on > > that cruse line". > I’m sorry, I disagree. Ray’s clients are adults, and they are capable of > assessing risk for themselves.  And what is major inconvenience to one > client might be minor inconvenience to another.  For myself, if I was > booked on  a cruise and it was cancelled, I would be able to pretty easily > realign my vacation to cruise at another time.  For others this would be > a significant problem.  If the cruise was one I really would like to go on > (like, for example, French Polynesia) I might take that chance, knowingly. > For another individual, they might be stuck with a vacation week and > unable to > go on a dream vacation; for them the risk would be too high. > It is clear from another poster, that Ray only booked Rennaissance after a > significant discussion with the traveller to discuss this kind of thing. > He > treated the client like an adult who is able to make their own decision. > I also work as a consultant, and if I tried to tell my clients that I > would > not do something because I thought they should not take that level of > risk, > I’d be out on a rail, of almost any company.  We inform them of risk if we > see it, we document it, and then we accept the decisions that they make. > That is professional behavior.  Not parenting the client, but respecting > them and giving them full in formation but letting them decide > Julie

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> > I guess we have a differing standards.  You’ll do anything anyone tells you > for money and I won’t.  But that’s what makes the world go round isn’t it. > Not exactly.  But once I have contracted to do something, I do let the client > make the key decisions.  I would not do something illegal, unethical, or > truly suicidal.  But all decisions involve some level of risk, from the most > minimal to truly overwhelming.  The vast majority of risk is well in the middle > of those two extremes.  In that central range I let my clients, who know the > business best, determine what risks are acceptable and which are not.  They > know their business, their goals, and their feelings best. > Julie

This presents yet another question when it comes to "professional travel agents". Just WHO is their "client"? Since their income is derived from the CRUISE LINE (Ray claims that he is paid his commission from the cruise line and NOT the "client"), isn’t he (they) actually working for the CRUISE LINE?  Sine there is no exchange of "consideration" between the client and the T/A, no legal contract exists (remember, the money the client pays the T/A goes DIRECTLY to the cruiseline, according to Ray). So, without "consideration", how can a legally binding contract exist between T/A and client?  Cruise line and client have a contract.  T/A and cruise line have a contract.  But T/A and client? Makes one go Hmmmmmmmmmmm……. Chuck Want to save some money on your next cruise?  Check out: www.cruisequick.com

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> This presents yet another question when it comes to "professional travel > agents". > Just WHO is their "client"? > So, without "consideration", how can a legally binding contract exist > between T/A and client?  Cruise line and client have a contract.  T/A > and cruise line have a contract.  But T/A and client? > Makes one go Hmmmmmmmmmmm……. > Want to save some money on your next cruise?  Check out: > www.cruisequick.com

Chuck, Who is the client of cruisequick?  Who pays them???? And wonder if this e-mail isn’t just a teeny tiny bit hypocritical? Julie Julie

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What does any of this have to do with Renaissance Cruise Line? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> This presents yet another question when it comes to "professional travel > agents". > Just WHO is their "client"? > So, without "consideration", how can a legally binding contract exist > between T/A and client?  Cruise line and client have a contract.  T/A > and cruise line have a contract.  But T/A and client? > Makes one go Hmmmmmmmmmmm……. > Want to save some money on your next cruise?  Check out: > www.cruisequick.com >Chuck, >Who is the client of cruisequick?  Who pays them???? >And wonder if this e-mail isn’t just a teeny tiny bit hypocritical? >Julie >Julie

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>This presents yet another question when it comes to "professional travel >agents". >Just WHO is their "client"?

The client is "the booking" or the deal … All are happy when the deal works out … The cruise line – happy just to have a cabin sold … The TA – happy to have made the deal … and the customer – happy to be going on a vacation he wants … Most times it takes very little to make the cruiseline and the TA happy … the customer is the one with the most requirements (AND RIGHTLY SO) to be happy thereby making the DEAL a success … In the Village …. I am not a number … I am a free man !!!!

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Julie, > We’ve beat poor Ray to death.  Let’s just say we disagree on what a > professional consultant’s responsibilities are.  Now that I see your > approach to consulting I understand why.  To me, you’re more like a > subcontractor that a consultant.  You advise then do what your told > regardless or the consequences. > Unlike you, I find most clients are grateful that I won’t work or accept a > fee for efforts that I am convinced ran contrary to their interests or clash > with my professional standards (conflict of interest, ethics, quality, > etc.).  I believe this enhances my professional reputation instead of "being > out on a rail".  Of course if I’m informed that there are undisclosed > strategic issues involved (often happens), then that’s a different story. > I guess we have a differing standards.  You’ll do anything anyone tells you > for money and I won’t.  But that’s what makes the world go round isn’t it. > Paul

But then, I don’t believe Julie is a washed up Beltway bandit that no one wants to hire like you are, is she?  Semi-retired is a euphonysm around here for umemployable. Diane – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> BTW:  Are you at George Mason? > > You just can’t throw up your hands and say "well I warned them, I > tried".  A > > true professional would say politely, "I’m sorry, but I will not book > you on > > that cruse line". > I’m sorry, I disagree. Ray’s clients are adults, and they are capable of > assessing risk for themselves.  And what is major inconvenience to one > client might be minor inconvenience to another.  For myself, if I was > booked on  a cruise and it was cancelled, I would be able to pretty easily > realign my vacation to cruise at another time.  For others this would be > a significant problem.  If the cruise was one I really would like to go on > (like, for example, French Polynesia) I might take that chance, knowingly. > For another individual, they might be stuck with a vacation week and > unable to > go on a dream vacation; for them the risk would be too high. > It is clear from another poster, that Ray only booked Rennaissance after a > significant discussion with the traveller to discuss this kind of thing. > He > treated the client like an adult who is able to make their own decision. > I also work as a consultant, and if I tried to tell my clients that I > would > not do something because I thought they should not take that level of > risk, > I’d be out on a rail, of almost any company.  We inform them of risk if we > see it, we document it, and then we accept the decisions that they make. > That is professional behavior.  Not parenting the client, but respecting > them and giving them full in formation but letting them decide > Julie

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**This stinks! ** **Jan the hypocrisy is astounding.

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>~~~ Don’t remember which True Believer of the HealthFraud cult was >claiming that shrinks weren’t licensed in Barrett’s day. How old is he >anyway? ?

Old enough to know better. >Why wouldn’t get have gotten his Board Certification ? ? ? ?

EXACTLY! <snip> >The Board holds meetings several times each year for the >purpose of examining candidates and transacting business.

Interesting. >Mission and Goals >The mission of the American Board of Psychiatry and Neurology, Inc. is to >serve the public interest by promoting excellence in the practice of >psychiatry and neurology through lifelong certification including competency

testing processes. Even MORE interesting. Barrett claims to be protecting the public, but he was never board certified??  Something bad wrong with this picture. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Methods for achieving that goal include (but are not limited to) efforts to: >1. Describe, in terms of knowledge and skills, a physician with special >expertise in evaluation, diagnosis, and treatment of patients with >psychiatric and/or neurologic disorders or who require psychiatric and/or >neurologic assessment; >2. Set the standards for knowledge and skills required for certification; >3. Construct and administer examinations designed to evaluate those skills >and knowledge; >4. Monitor, evaluate, and improve the standards and procedures of the >certification process; >5. Participate in the appropriate Residency Review Committees of the >Accreditation Council for Graduate Medical Education to set standards for >the quality and scope of residency training programs to ensure that their >graduates will obtain necessary training credit toward certification; >6. Issue certificates and other forms of recognition to successful >candidates; >7. Make available lists of diplomates who have fulfilled the requirements >for certification; >8. Inform the public, other professions, and other medical organizations >of the purposes, activities, and responsibilities of the Corporation; and >9. Participate in the activities of the American Board of Medical >Specialties and its member Boards.

This would explain why everyone should always find out if one is certified. If not, chose another doctor. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->The Board has the authority to revoke any certificate issued by it or to >place a certificate holder on probation for a fixed or indefinite period >of time if (1) the certificate was issued contrary to, or in violation of, >the bylaws or any rule or regulation of the Board, or (2) the person to >whom the certificate was issued made any material misstatement or omission >of fact to the Board in his or her application or otherwise. >Certification shall continue in force only so long as the holder has an >unrestricted license to practice medicine in a state, commonwealth, >territory, or possession of the United States or province of Canada. A >full and unrestricted medical license must be maintained even if a >physician is out of the country for extended periods of time. Restrictions >include but are not limited to conditions, contingencies, probation, and >stipulated agreements. Restriction of a physician’s license does not, >however, include voluntary participation in an impaired physicians program >or other appropriate, monitored alcohol or chemical substance-abuse >recovery program, if the physician has not been reported to either the >National Practitioners’ Data Bank or the Data Bank of the Federation of >State Medical Boards. It is the responsibility of the candidate/diplomate >to inform the Board immediately upon a change in licensure status.

Well. Maybe this explains why he wasn’t ever certified?? Didn’t want anyone looking over his shoulder? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Irregular behavior including unethical behavior of candidates >The Board believes that the ethics of candidates for certification are of >concern. The following rules apply: >1. Falsification of credentials will be cause for the Board

> > I have a Legal Nurse Consultant firm, we help attorneys with medical > malpractice and personal injury cases.  Does anyone have any ideas how to > market our business other than direct mail?

Hello — As far as marketing your efforts is concerned, writing articles and speaking engagements work well for me. These are not sales pitches. They provide just enough content for people to know if they’re interested in what you have to offer and to feel as though they’ve taken away a tool they can use. Make sure your target market is the audience for your talk or article. If you choose this route, make sure you include some type of "call to action" at the end of your article or talk. Otherwise, the time you spent is wasted effort. Best Regards, Denise O’Berry — The Small Business Edge  813.671.5996 Tampa, FL USA Don’t work for your business…make your business work for you! Order Your Success Strategies Guide — It’s FREE http://www.whatspossible.com

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I have a Legal Nurse Consultant firm, we help attorneys with medical malpractice and personal injury cases.  Does anyone have any ideas how to market our business other than direct mail?

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> I have a Legal Nurse Consultant firm, we help attorneys with medical > malpractice and personal injury cases.  Does anyone have any ideas how to > market our business other than direct mail?

The old fashion way of knocking on doors.  Have your most personable employee go around and visit lawyers.  A handshake goes a long way.  Have him/her practice with you (or if you’re going to do it, you should practice with someone that will give you honest feedback [a.k.a. your boss ... or if you're the boss, a consultant]).  Try to talk to as many lawyers as possible.  Ask to attend a partner meeting. Once you or one of your employees has shook hands with a lawyer, send all direct mail to that person and try to make it personable.  A handwritten post-it note slapped on the cover letter at least.  In that note, show that you’ve kept track of them.  Make a comment about some court case they just wrapped up. Offer to give a lecture at local lawyer conferences.  Have brochures to hand out to attendees as they enter.  The brochure can be single-sheet outline of your lecture on one side and a pitch for your business on the other side. Hand out business cards at these events as if the success or failure of your business depended on it.  And make sure that business card is informative so next time they look at it, they’ll know what you’re selling. Scott T. Jensen

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Hello Scott, You are selling high end professional services. You should consider implementing a 7-step prospecting and contact management system. Relationship building is a slow and tedious process but one that cannot be avoided if you want to succeed in your field of choice. I can help you set up and operate a such a system. The end result would be a scalable pipelined process yielding the number of new clients you are searching for. Should this be of interest to you, please give me a call at (253) 405-7156 J.P. Solyom, B.S.E.E., M.B.A. KS Business Development – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > I have a Legal Nurse Consultant firm, we help attorneys with medical > malpractice and personal injury cases.  Does anyone have any ideas how to > market our business other than direct mail?

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Know any Business Tools? Do you know any software program that is used to support: * Evaluation and development of ideas for new products * Formulation of businessplans, marketingplans, strategy etc. The outcome is expected to be some kind of report. I would prefer information on programs that only includes the software program (for PC), but programs which include training and/or consultant assistance etc. could also be of interest. Language does not have to be English (not my native language, as I am sure you can tell from this message). I would be greatfull to hear about both good and bad experiences with any program in this category – or just some brief knowledge of a program. Kind regards – and thank you in advance Jack O. Kristensen Cavalius Research & Marketing Copenhagen, Denmark Phone (+45) – 43 71 77 11 Mobil: (+45) – 23 72 76 11 WEB: www.cavalius.dk/English

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[snip] Jack, I used both Business Plan Pro and Marketing Plan Pro from Palo Alto software with good results. Business Plan Pro does include some marketing planning within the software but Marketing Plan Pro goes into much more detail. Marketing Plan Pro’s manual leaves a lot to be desired, though. They seem to have released the program while still developing a manual. What they’ve put together so far is accessible on their website. The good news is that you can download trial versions of the program to try it before you buy it. http://www.paloalto.com/ Good Luck! Bill Hibbler

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If you’re looking for something more economical, visit the Small Business Administration web site.  They have some downloadable "tools".  Not the most sophisticated… but you can’t beat the price (free). Scott

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I am a 44 year old South African with 16 years of business consultancy experience. Please advise on any opportunity you may have for contract or permanent employment and the requirements thereof. A resume will be sent on request. Kind regards Angus Hughes * Sent from AltaVista http://www.altavista.com Where you can also find related Web Pages, Images, Audios, Videos, News, and Shopping.  Smart is Beautiful

Response:

We’d like to get more infos. Thanks,         Paolo Monasterolo C.L.M. Consulting S.r.l. V. Donizetti 12 10092 Beinasco (TO) Tel/Fax+39 011 3987483

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Hello! > International multi-billion company requires Business Development > Consultants. > Short hours,work from home,unlimited income,great rewards! > FREE information provided on request. > Aled Evans > "Secure your future with the business of the future"

Response:

Aled Evans,     My name is Ryan Mordhorst and I work for Integrated Technical Services Inc.  I was wondering if I could get more info on what services you needed for my consultants?  Please send all responses to hearing from you.                                                         Ryan Mordhorst – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Hello! > International multi-billion company requires Business Development > Consultants. > Short hours,work from home,unlimited income,great rewards! > FREE information provided on request. > Aled Evans > "Secure your future with the business of the future"

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Would like more information on the opportunity you posted Thank you www.miles-corp.com * Sent from AltaVista http://www.altavista.com Where you can also find related Web Pages, Images, Audios, Videos, News, and Shopping.  Smart is Beautiful

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Hello! International multi-billion company requires Business Development Consultants. Short hours,work from home,unlimited income,great rewards! FREE information provided on request. Aled Evans "Secure your future with the business of the future"

Response:

Hi Andy, You might try www.aureate.com Best wishes, Terri Firebaugh Firebaugh Communications "Image Depends on the PR Company you Keep" http://www.firepub.com

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Does anyone know of businesses that do sales and marketing of > downloadable software on a commission basis?

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Does anyone know of businesses that do sales and marketing of downloadable software on a commission basis? The product we have is designed for business use and our normal distribution channels are not effective enough in this area. Thanks, Andy

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> Does anyone know of businesses that do sales and marketing of > downloadable software on a commission basis? The product we have is > designed for business use and our normal distribution channels are > not effective enough in this area.

Here’s one idea from the Internet marketing arena: create a sales affiliate program for sales and marketing consultants. They generate or drive sales to you and you pay them a commission. Another concept would be using targeted email marketing to increase sales. If you haven’t look at those types of ideas yet, I’d be available to point you in the right direction. Lori Ann Clark j4 Corporation http://www.j4corp.com Internet Marketing and Web Development

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Hi try http://www.promotion-tips.com I think they have what you are looking for – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Does anyone know of businesses that do sales and marketing of > downloadable software on a commission basis? The product we have is > designed for business use and our normal distribution channels are not > effective enough in this area.

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We had a couple of responses to the following request … "Does anyone know of businesses that do sales and marketing of downloadable software on a commission basis? The product we have is designed for business use and our normal distribution channels are not effective enough in this area." The most suitable for us appears to be an affiliate program. Does anyone know how to go about organizing one and where is the best place to do it through? Thanks, Andy

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> Does anyone know of businesses that do sales and marketing of > downloadable software on a commission basis? The product we have is > designed for business use and our normal distribution channels are > not effective enough in this area.

I would recommend calling CNet and setting up relationship with Download.com, then making sure your site is listed via software directories and or Search Engines so you can sell direct. Works for one of my clients http://www.polyserve.com For more help call/write – good luck! Lee Traupel www.wolfblast.com

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For responders to make intelligent comments, it would help a great deal if we had an idea of the size of your operation and how deep your pockets are. ‘Scuze me for being so blunt Create an RFP(Request For Proposal) and offer it up to several marketing agencies. Creating the RFP will help you define your goals and break down the costs of the various marketing efforts. Your budget, to some degree, will determine the level of the expertise of the agency you go with (no flames please!) If you go with an established consultant, you should be prepared for some sticker shock. YOU should know what your market is. A consultant or agency should be able to help you refine your target demographics, test your product and determine an appropriate marketing strategy. Steve

– Steve Roberts Business Development Manager Evergreen Direct 152 Maple Street, Ste. 300 Middlebury, VT 05753 Telephone: (802) 388-4088 Fax: (802) 388-3091 http://www.EvergreenDirect.com      MBMM       *DIGEST VERSIONS*      MEM   Go to http://markethink.com/lists/ to subscribe Markethink Digest http://markethink.com/digest/

Response:

No, of course your question isn’t foolish. In fact, as a professional marketer, I wish everyone with a product or service to promote would ask that important question FIRST, before stumbling and blundering and wondering why their ‘baby’ isn’t loved by all. I’d be happy to help if you’d like somewhere to begin. Shirley Green > Please forgive me if this question sounds foolish. > I’m looking for a company but I am not sure just what kind of > company. Is there any such company that I can hire that can with the > perimeters that I give them go out and identify all the different > clients that would have an interest in a new product that I have. >…

     MBMM       *DIGEST VERSIONS*      MEM   Go to http://markethink.com/lists/ to subscribe Markethink Digest http://markethink.com/digest/

Response:

Larry, There are many ways to determine your client base and to contract for the information.  You will have to define the scope of your needs, i.e., do you already know your targeted market – but need to know who the clients are (if this is the case, you can simply purchase lists that will give you anything from counts to actual customer names based on SIC codes – there are many vendors out there – see Dun & Bradstreet) – or have you developed a product and you have no idea who the customer should be or how to manage your channel of distribution (if this is the case, you will need the broader resources of a market research firm).

     MBMM       *DIGEST VERSIONS*      MEM   Go to http://markethink.com/lists/ to subscribe Markethink Digest http://markethink.com/digest/

Response:

> Is there any such company that I can hire that can with the perimeters > that I give them go out and identify all the different clients that > would have an interest in a new product that I have. Further, would > this company be able to supply this information in electronic form for > marketing purposes.

Without knowing more about your company and what you’re trying to sell, I think any market research firm (or such a department in a marketing firm) should be able to help you out.  If it is a "merely" a department in a marketing firm, ask how many people work in that department and visit it. Some firms "innocently" claim a department but really only have one or two people in it and farm out the vast majority of the work to a market research firm. > Now, I’d like to be clear about my request. I’m > not interested in getting information  for the sole purpose of > spamming.

Hmmm, but spamming will be part of it.  Hmmm.  [Scott looks around for his gun.] > Far from it. Rather I believe it would save alot of money in > the long run…

Well, spamming is really cheap.  Annoying like Hell but still cheap. > …to have another company use their resources to find the > information I require.

More realistically, they’ll be able to better target your pitch and fine-tune that pitch for maximum results. Scott — Not an ad or PR person at heart?  Like a second opinion on what your ad and PR people are proposing?   http://www.proposal-critiques.com      MBMM       *DIGEST VERSIONS*      MEM   Go to http://markethink.com/lists/ to subscribe Markethink Digest http://markethink.com/digest/

Response:

Please forgive me if this question sounds foolish. I’m looking for a company but I am not sure just what kind of company. Is there any such company that I can hire that can with the perimeters that I give them go out and identify all the different clients that would have an interest in a new product that I have. Further, would this company be able to supply this information in electronic form for marketing purposes. Now, I’d like to be clear about my request. I’m not interested in getting information  for the sole purpose of spamming. Far from it. Rather I believe it would save alot of money in the long run to have another company use their resources to find the information I require. Thank you for your time. Larry      MBMM       *DIGEST VERSIONS*      MEM   Go to http://markethink.com/lists/ to subscribe Markethink Digest http://markethink.com/digest/

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