Business History Books » Business Consulting » Marketing without spamming?
Marketing without spamming?
Question:
>I personally think your estimate is a bit low, but consider that if any >other enterprise on the face of the planet consisted of 99 percent scam >artists, the whole industry would be shut down permenently. So why >should bulk email be any different?
Mr. Crisp, I think you’re reading between the lines in my posts. However, I’m not writing between them. I don’t know what I’m saying to encourage this. Please allow me to try again: THE VAST MAJORITY OF BULK EMAIL COMPANIES SPAM, BUT NOT ALL OF THEM. THERE ARE TRUE OPT-IN LISTS WHICH I HAVE USED FOR SURVEY RECRUITING. I’m not defending the industry. I’m not saying any of them are good people. All I’m saying is they aren’t all spamming. Tell me I’m arguing over semantics here, but you really have to look at the word "bulk" in bulk email. If you send a message to 1,000 employees, you are "bulk" emailing. When I send survey invitations to our panel that filled out a 60-question survey in order to receive the email, I’m sending "bulk" email. I have used Email Media to send messages to people I don’t know, and I’ve had very good results. Whether you like it or not, those people were expecting to get messages, period. They signed up to receive it. We all get email we supposedly signed up for, that we didn’t. However, that doesn’t mean they all work that way. As far as them being permanatly shut down, I really don’t give a hoot. I would not lose one wink of sleep, and it would not effect my business in any way. I get a much better price per response from banner advertising anyway. I only use Email media because it’s convenient. Shut them all down. I’m not defending them, and I really don’t care. Scott W. Spain W3 Resources, Inc. Replace "nospam" with "swspain"
Response:
>I get about 7 email list offers per day. Does anyone have any experience >using them? Or made any money? >If not, then I can’t understand how they stay in business.
Internet maths: say their list (obtained by for free by stripping newsgroups) is 30 dollars and 2000 (people pulled into mlm schemes and chancing one mailing each) buy we have an income of 60.000. Many figures are higher which reduces the number of customers needed. John John Block Creative, marketing aware work which Freelance Copywriter talks rather than blandly bores, actively promotes your product, International and aims to be the best Welcomes Dollar and Sterling, in your market sector.
Response:
>I Know that spamming is unethical, but it must work because I get about 7 to >10 a day. Sometimes they are from the same people.
Tip: Look to see if the same people repeat in a few months. John John Block Creative, marketing aware work which Freelance Copywriter talks rather than blandly bores, actively promotes your product, International and aims to be the best Welcomes Dollar and Sterling, in your market sector.
Response:
> >Have you considered a cookie? > Considered a cookie for what? That email address is not available via a > cookie. Nor is anyone’s email address available from a cookie unless they > provide it to the site that sets the cookie. As I said, I get Spam claiming > to be opt-in sent to an address I only use with the Internic. > Note: I’ve stopped using a real email address for this list due to the > amount of Spam I began receiving after posting here. > McWebber Web Hosting > & Design > http://mcwebber.com/
I notice you have your website’s URL at the bottom of your message… There are now some newsgroup "crawlers" that look for the domain name portion of your URL, and then append what they assume to be the basic account names for that domain, such as: SALES INFO WEBMASTER ADMIN Did the address you use possibly come from one of these basics? If so, that may be the problem. I have removed my URL from my signature block since learning about this. Hope this helps! — Joseph A. Espinosa — Systems and Technology Consultant (Remove "nospam" from E-Mail address to send to me) Silver Lining Global Technologies — Orange, Calif. We Can Make Technology Work for You. Ask Me How!
Response:
>I also took about five thousand complaints. After four days, emails are >still bouncing back to my servers in the tens of thousands because about >half of those emails he bought were bogus. >It was touch and go there for awhile with large providers like AOL and >Compuserve who will block an IP range in a heartbeat if they start >taking spam from that block. That would have put me out of business. >The bottom line is that if you spam using email, I truly hope you die a >horrible death drowning in your own pus.
This is really dramatic! I get about 7 email list offers per day. Does anyone have any experience using them? Or made any money? If not, then I can’t understand how they stay in business. Pls enlighten me. Jay Cuurry MSP Associates Amsterdam
Response:
[ModSpeak: Folks, I will allow further discussion as to the given subject, but if it gets emotional with passionate sermons, one way or another, an end will come to this thread. -John] I Know that spamming is unethical, but it must work because I get about 7 to 10 a day. Sometimes they are from the same people. [ModComment: Just because you get 7-10 a day like many of us, doesn't mean "it must be working". Consider, with bulk ware or even one's own emailer, sucking addresses from various places, and sending out a spam to thousands, no real cost involved is there? If you have unmetered phone, just set the program to email and go watch South Park. This is why you receive the spam, not because it is an effective marketing tool (at least not the types of spam most of us get). I don't know about you, but I don't receive spam or UCE from REAL marketers. -John] Don’t get me wrong, I am not interested in spamming anyone. But I am looking for qualified visitors just like the next person and it seems like they are getting quite few(although I have tried to ressist the temptation to click on thier offer, some have tempted me if only to see thier hit counter. I have joined quite a few E-zines and participated in thier discussions from time to time, that has helped a little. And of course newsgroups, search engines, links, etc… I am just wondering if there is more. If any of you have had any earth shattering success with online marketing let me know. Feel free to e-mail me with suggestions and I would be more than happy to reciprocate. Danielle Sims http://www.vastvids.com >How do I get my message across via the net without spamming others? I don’t >want to alienate potential customers, but I need to advertise. Btw, I don’t >have endless pockets. Does anyone have any ideas?
snip – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> If only 16 percent use the web, the only way internet commerce can reach > this sector and maybe others would be via spam! > However because of the lack of targeting and irritation value, it is a /bad > idea/. > So it’s website, meta tags, search engines, participation in newsgroups. Do > discussion of these!
Response:
>Scott, are you saying they charge $.10 per address and you are sending out >10’s of thousands of them? >–
That is correct. However, keep in mind that I have used this company to recruit for online surveys and web-based focus groups. The "10’s of thousands" of them did not come all in one shot. They’ve been spread out among several research projects since 1995. Scott W. Spain W3Survey.net "THE Web Survey Field Service" http://www.w3survey.net
Response:
Steve, Well, since you mentioned my name and wished death upon me, I feel compelled to respond. I agree 100% on the issue of spamming. However, sending email is not spamming. Sending unsolicited email is spamming. There ARE opt-in lists out there that are truly opt-in. I’ll admit, not a lot of good ones. I rarely use any of them anymore, as I have built a database from which to recruit. No matter how bad some of the "scams" are out there, it is unwise to assume that every company who sells bulk email services is spamming. I would estimate that well over 99% of them are a scam, but there are good ones out there. You just have to be very careful. Scott W. Spain
Response:
After many attempts to be removed from their lists that I never "opted into" in the first place I have blocked the netcreations and postmaster direct domains from my server and added them to my email filters at home. McWebber Web Hosting & Design http://mcwebber.com/ All Spam and BCC and CC mail rejected. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >I’m surprised nobody’s mentioned NetCreations, and their "PostMaster Direct" >opt-in email lists (http://www.postmasterdirect.com). Most of their lists go >for .10 to .20 per address, but they are "100% opt-in" (their slogan). >Many others are offering opt-in email lists now, as well; our in-house list >brokerage (GLS) deals with them all the time.
Response:
>How do I get my message across via the net without spamming others? I don’t >want to alienate potential customers, but I need to advertise. Btw, I don’t >have endless pockets. Does anyone have any ideas?
(misc.business.consulting readers can skip research part!) In the Uk the Institute of Directors and Oracle have done some research amongst executives: Use a computer: UK 64 percent Germany 84 percent Singapore 100 percent Of those using a computer in UK 91 percent use it for email and 16 percent use the web. That’s all I saw (on teletext) but http://www.nua.ie probably has more. If only 16 percent use the web, the only way internet commerce can reach this sector and maybe others would be via spam! However because of the lack of targeting and irritation value, it is a /bad idea/. So it’s website, meta tags, search engines, participation in newsgroups. Do discussion of these! >In the market for delicious chocolate candy? Visit my web page at >http://members.aol.com/BlkMlOrdr/index.html
free samples of the above. >[ModSpeak: Advice welcome. No discussion as to personal >opinion of spam. -JG]
What about chocolate? [ModSpeak: Willie Wonka Marketing? ] John John Block Creative, marketing aware work which Freelance Copywriter talks rather than blandly bores, actively promotes your product, International and aims to be the best Welcomes Dollar and Sterling, in your market sector.
Response:
> I would estimate > that well over 99% of them are a scam, but there are good ones out > there. You just have to be very careful.
I personally think your estimate is a bit low, but consider that if any other enterprise on the face of the planet consisted of 99 percent scam artists, the whole industry would be shut down permenently. So why should bulk email be any different? Steve Crisp PagePlop Web Hosting Service http://www.pageplop.com [ModTwobits: Agree, it is a bit on the conservative side <lol> -John]
Response:
: on ONE company: Email Media. I trust them 100%. As I mentioned in : my previous email message, I have used them to send 10’s of thousands : of messages. I have included my HOME PHONE NUMBER, begging for : somebody to complain. That just scratches the surface. Believe me, I : am as paranoid about using these lists as anybody. However, I have : pulled my hair out trying to get a complaint from this group. I have : yet to receive one. : Now, to be fair, Email Media does not do business the way most email : companies do. In each email, they include their "reminder" that tells : people they subscribed. They do NOT give customers email addresses. : They send the message for you. Also, they are NOT cheap. .10 per : outbound message. Scott, are you saying they charge $.10 per address and you are sending out 10’s of thousands of them? — I wish you a GREAT DAY!!! Bill William "Bill" Hodges, DTM PDG, **AUTHOR**KEYNOTE SPEAKER**TRAINER** HODGES SEMINARS INTERNATIONAL – WHERE GREAT DAYS BEGIN FREE MOTIVATIONAL MESSAGES for your newsletter or enjoyment are on our web site or can be obtained by e-mail. To be added to the list: send your name, city, state/province, country and e-mail address to us with the request "Add me to the motivation list." Your information will be used for no other purpose than to let us know where the columns are going.
Response:
> They use a 100% "opt-in" list. On of the forms people fill out to > receive email messages can be found at: > I used to use them for online survey recruiting, and have nothing but > great things to say about them. I’ve had them send out many 10’s of > thousands of email messages for me. I’ve even been as bold as to > include my home telephone number, begging for people to complain if > they are not subscribers. NOT ONE COMPLAINT. They are great!
Let me tell you what I just did on Monday. We took on a new domain to our servers last Saturday. He fully knew our policy against spamming. Nonetheless, he was scammed by some fraud artist who talked him into sending out 2.5 million emails announcing his new web site. My mail servers crashed after about 15 minutes and were down for 18 hours. His domain was immediately disconnected and his DNS orphaned with InterNIC. He will be facing civil charges for damages and possible criminal charges as well since he sent out the emails using a fraudulent name but with our domain name on it. I also took about five thousand complaints. After four days, emails are still bouncing back to my servers in the tens of thousands because about half of those emails he bought were bogus. It was touch and go there for awhile with large providers like AOL and Compuserve who will block an IP range in a heartbeat if they start taking spam from that block. That would have put me out of business. The bottom line is that if you spam using email, I truly hope you die a horrible death drowning in your own pus. Steve Crisp PagePlop Web Hosting Service http://www.pageplop.com
Response:
>I’ve gotten Spam from services that claim that they are 100% opt in. The >only problem is, the Spam came to an address that I only use for registering >my web sites with the Internic. So the only way they got my email address >was from the Internic database, not from me "opting in".
Without question, this is taking place. If I said something to lead you to believe that EVERY company that claims lists are "opt-in" are not spamming, I sincerely apologize. That is definitely NOT the case. In fact, I’d say the majority of them are spamming. I was commenting on ONE company: Email Media. I trust them 100%. As I mentioned in my previous email message, I have used them to send 10’s of thousands of messages. I have included my HOME PHONE NUMBER, begging for somebody to complain. That just scratches the surface. Believe me, I am as paranoid about using these lists as anybody. However, I have pulled my hair out trying to get a complaint from this group. I have yet to receive one. Now, to be fair, Email Media does not do business the way most email companies do. In each email, they include their "reminder" that tells people they subscribed. They do NOT give customers email addresses. They send the message for you. Also, they are NOT cheap. .10 per outbound message. Scott W. Spain W3Survey.net
Response:
>Of those using a computer in UK 91 percent use it for email and 16 percent >use the web. >If only 16 percent use the web, the only way internet commerce can reach >this sector and maybe others would be via spam!
No, there are plenty of ways to ethically market on the Internet without using the Web. Anyone reading this is probably aware of Usenet. Marketing on Usenet is possible, although to be done well it mustn’t be blatant. At its best it involves actively participating in a helpful way on a regular basis. There are also IRC, and the chat rooms of various online service providers. Of course, of the 84% who don’t use the Web, I suspect many use email only. It is also possible to ethically market to these people. There are thousands of mailing lists covering all sorts of topics on the Net. You can reach the readers of such lists by posting, in a similar manner to Usenet marketing, or by sponsoring them. Some subscribers will have joined such lists after word-of-mouth recommendation, or after having read a forwarded list post or digest. Such people may also email autoresponders to receive furthre information. It’s interesting that many marketers include Web URLs in their offline marketing material, but rarely include an autoresponder address, or an encouragement to join a mailing list. Why? Email can be used for marketing, but the hype of the Web has left email largely ignored. Regards, Tom If you want to e-mail me remove ‘NOSPAM’ from my address — Learn how to create amazing web sites Visit eBORcOM’s Web Development Resources http://www.eborcom.com/webmaker/
Response:
>I’ve gotten Spam from services that claim that they are 100% opt in. The >only problem is, the Spam came to an address that I only use for registering >my web sites with the Internic. So the only way they got my email address >was from the Internic database, not from me "opting in".
Have you considered a cookie?
Response:
Before you consider the Web as your only advertising option, I believe that you will be better off if you look to see who and how your customer is and buys. Are you going to get more bang for your buck by advertising on the WEb, or by doing a yellow pages display ad. Is your market local, versus national? In other words, before you advertise, you need to do some homework on the basics and decide the 4 Ps.: – product – what it is and what is unique about it. Why should I buy it versus another delicious piece of chocolate candy? – position – where does it sell and to who and for what reason? – price – how much do I want to sell if for, and where does it sit in the market on pricing. – promotion- how do I reach the people outlined in the above, make them aware of the product, make them want it, and then compete against other products with a form of information that gives my potential customer all this information and the urege to buy it? This is pretty basic stuff, but many people look at the Web as a cheap and easy forum for products. It can be, but you need to get your store in order before you use any form of advertising. B. J. Arnold-Feret ppsltd at airmail.net PP&S Ltd. *****helping small business be more profitable*****
Response:
> (snip) > The only problem is, the Spam came to an address that I only use for > registering my web sites with the Internic. So the only way they got my > email address was from the Internic database.
(snip) Same here. If I had it to do over, I would be leery about using Internic to register our site. — Steve Holmes, Steve Holmes Productions (helping companies communicate through award-winning video) Iowa City, IA, USA http://www.shpvideo.com (to reply, remove my feelings about spam in the above address)
Response:
>Have you considered a cookie?
Considered a cookie for what? That email address is not available via a cookie. Nor is anyone’s email address available from a cookie unless they provide it to the site that sets the cookie. As I said, I get Spam claiming to be opt-in sent to an address I only use with the Internic. Note: I’ve stopped using a real email address for this list due to the amount of Spam I began receiving after posting here. McWebber Web Hosting & Design http://mcwebber.com/
Response:
I’m surprised nobody’s mentioned NetCreations, and their "PostMaster Direct" opt-in email lists (http://www.postmasterdirect.com). Most of their lists go for .10 to .20 per address, but they are "100% opt-in" (their slogan). Many others are offering opt-in email lists now, as well; our in-house list brokerage (GLS) deals with them all the time. WHATEVER you do, steer clear of the spam… :-/ William Greene, Director of Internet Marketing Grizzard Communications Group http://www.grizzard.com/ – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->I’ve gotten Spam from services that claim that they are 100% opt in. The >only problem is, the Spam came to an address that I only use for registering >my web sites with the Internic. So the only way they got my email address >was from the Internic database, not from me "opting in". >Without question, this is taking place. If I said something to lead >you to believe that EVERY company that claims lists are "opt-in" are >not spamming, I sincerely apologize. That is definitely NOT the case. >In fact, I’d say the majority of them are spamming. I was commenting >on ONE company: Email Media. I trust them 100%. As I mentioned in >my previous email message, I have used them to send 10’s of thousands >of messages. I have included my HOME PHONE NUMBER, begging for >somebody to complain. That just scratches the surface. Believe me, I >am as paranoid about using these lists as anybody. However, I have >pulled my hair out trying to get a complaint from this group. I have >yet to receive one. >Now, to be fair, Email Media does not do business the way most email >companies do. In each email, they include their "reminder" that tells >people they subscribed. They do NOT give customers email addresses. >They send the message for you. Also, they are NOT cheap. .10 per >outbound message. >Scott W. Spain >W3Survey.net
Response:
> How do I get my message across via the net without spamming others? I don’t > want to alienate potential customers, but I need to advertise. Btw, I don’t > have endless pockets. Does anyone have any ideas? > Thanks > In the market for delicious chocolate candy? Visit my web page at > http://members.aol.com/BlkMlOrdr/index.html > [ModSpeak: Advice welcome. No discussion as to personal > opinion of spam. -JG]
As with any DM effort, there is no single formula for success in either print or online. If you plan to use "bulk email" you have to come up with a very compelling, non-antagonising email header message and message in the body. Then the offer also has to be compelling. Before I do this though, I’d take a serious look at getting your own domain name. Also, when I attempted to visit the address above, AOL gave me the following response. "The requested URL was not found on this server. " So, maybe you need to get your store in order first before inviting customers inside. Bill Moore Editor in chief — EV WORLD:THIS WEEK "The Future In Motion" http://www.evworld.com
Response:
>How do I get my message across via the net without spamming others? I don’t >……but I need to advertise.
Why do you need to advertise on Internet? What did you do before Internet? There is no such thing as non-spam advertising to an ‘individual’.
Response:
>There is no such thing as non-spam advertising to an ‘individual’.
Sorry, this is simply not true. Check out: http://savvy1.savvy.com/emedia/consumer.htm They use a 100% "opt-in" list. On of the forms people fill out to receive email messages can be found at: http://catalog.savvy.com/ I used to use them for online survey recruiting, and have nothing but great things to say about them. I’ve had them send out many 10’s of thousands of email messages for me. I’ve even been as bold as to include my home telephone number, begging for people to complain if they are not subscribers. NOT ONE COMPLAINT. They are great! Scott W. Spain W3Survey.net http://www.w3survey.net
Response:
I’ve gotten Spam from services that claim that they are 100% opt in. The only problem is, the Spam came to an address that I only use for registering my web sites with the Internic. So the only way they got my email address was from the Internic database, not from me "opting in". McWebber Web Hosting & Design http://mcwebber.com/ All Spam and BCC and CC mail rejected. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->There is no such thing as non-spam advertising to an ‘individual’. >Sorry, this is simply not true. Check out: >http://savvy1.savvy.com/emedia/consumer.htm >They use a 100% "opt-in" list. On of the forms people fill out to >receive email messages can be found at: http://catalog.savvy.com/ >I used to use them for online survey recruiting, and have nothing but >great things to say about them. I’ve had them send out many 10’s of >thousands of email messages for me. I’ve even been as bold as to >include my home telephone number, begging for people to complain if >they are not subscribers. NOT ONE COMPLAINT. They are great!
Response:
How do I get my message across via the net without spamming others? I don’t want to alienate potential customers, but I need to advertise. Btw, I don’t have endless pockets. Does anyone have any ideas? Thanks In the market for delicious chocolate candy? Visit my web page at http://members.aol.com/BlkMlOrdr/index.html [ModSpeak: Advice welcome. No discussion as to personal opinion of spam. -JG]