Firms with Bush-Cheney Ties Clinching Katrina Deals     Reuters     Saturday 10 September 2005     Washington – Companies with ties to the Bush White House and the former head of FEMA are clinching some of the administration’s first disaster relief and reconstruction contracts in the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina.     At least two major corporate clients of lobbyist Joe Allbaugh, President George W. Bush’s former campaign manager and a former head of the Federal Emergency Management Agency, have already been tapped to start recovery work along the battered Gulf Coast.     One is Shaw Group Inc. and the other is Halliburton Co. subsidiary Kellogg Brown and Root. Vice President Dick Cheney is a former head of Halliburton.     Bechtel National Inc., a unit of San Francisco-based Bechtel Corp., has also been selected by FEMA to provide short-term housing for people displaced by the hurricane. Bush named Bechtel’s CEO to his Export Council and put the former CEO of Bechtel Energy in charge of the Overseas Private Investment Corporation.     Experts say it has been common practice in both Republican and Democratic administrations for policy makers to take lobbying jobs once they leave office, and many of the same companies seeking contracts in the wake of Hurricane Katrina have already received billions of dollars for work in Iraq.     Halliburton alone has earned more than $9 billion. Pentagon audits released by Democrats in June showed $1.03 billion in "questioned" costs and $422 million in "unsupported" costs for Halliburton’s work in Iraq.     But the web of Bush administration connections is attracting renewed attention from watchdog groups in the post-Katrina reconstruction rush. Congress has already appropriated more than $60 billion in emergency funding as a down payment on recovery efforts projected to cost well over $100 billion.     "The government has got to stop stacking senior positions with people who are repeatedly cashing in on the public trust in order to further private commercial interests," said Danielle Brian, executive director of the Project on Government Oversight.     Two Bush Appointees at Halliburton     Allbaugh formally registered as a lobbyist for Halliburton subsidiary Kellogg Brown and Root in February.     In lobbying disclosure forms filed with the Senate, Allbaugh said his goal was to "educate the congressional and executive branch on defense, disaster relief and homeland security issues affecting Kellogg Brown and Root."     Melissa Norcross, a Halliburton spokeswoman, said Allbaugh has not, since he was hired, "consulted on any specific contracts that the company is considering pursuing, nor has he been tasked by the company with any lobbying responsibilities."     Allbaugh is also a friend of Michael Brown, director of FEMA who was removed as head of Katrina disaster relief and sent back to Washington amid allegations he had padded his resume.     A few months after Allbaugh was hired by Halliburton, the company retained another high-level Bush appointee, Kirk Van Tine.     Van Tine registered as a lobbyist for Halliburton six months after resigning as deputy transportation secretary, a position he held from December 2003 to December 2004.     On Friday, Kellogg Brown & Root received $29.8 million in Pentagon contracts to begin rebuilding Navy bases in Louisiana and Mississippi. Norcross said the work was covered under a contract that the company negotiated before Allbaugh was hired.     Halliburton continues to be a source of income for Cheney, who served as its chief executive officer from 1995 until 2000 when he joined the Republican ticket for the White House. According to tax filings released in April, Cheney’s income included $194,852 in deferred pay from the company, which has also won billion-dollar government contracts in Iraq.     Cheney’s office said the amount of deferred compensation is fixed and is not affected by Halliburton’s current economic performance or earnings.     Allbaugh’s other major client, Baton Rouge-based Shaw Group, has updated its Web site to say: "Hurricane Recovery Projects – Apply Here!"      Shaw said on Thursday it has received a $100 million emergency FEMA contract for housing management and construction. Shaw also clinched a $100 million order on Friday from the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers.     Shaw Group spokesman Chris Sammons said Allbaugh was providing the company with "general consulting on business matters," and would not say whether he played a direct role in any of the Katrina deals. "We don’t comment on specific consulting activities," he said. http://www.truthout.org/docs_2005/091105C.shtml

Response:

Thanks for posting this, zoot.  I was going to do so…but I’ve been pretty vocal lately.  I didn’t want to go over the top and post this, too. I’m glad you did, however. It’s another good lesson into what matters most within this administration. Mike

Response:

> Thanks for posting this, zoot.  I was going to do so…but > I’ve been pretty vocal lately.  I didn’t want to go over the > top and post this, too. > I’m glad you did, however. > It’s another good lesson into what matters most within this > administration. > Mike

yeah, it’s a welfare state

Response:

 Firms with Bush-Cheney Ties Clinching Katrina Deals     Reuters     Saturday 10 September 2005     Washington – Companies with ties to the Bush White House and the former head of FEMA are clinching some of the administration’s first disaster relief and reconstruction contracts in the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina.     At least two major corporate clients of lobbyist Joe Allbaugh, President George W. Bush’s former campaign manager and a former head of the Federal Emergency Management Agency, have already been tapped to start recovery work along the battered Gulf Coast.     One is Shaw Group Inc. and the other is Halliburton Co. subsidiary Kellogg Brown and Root. Vice President Dick Cheney is a former head of Halliburton.     Bechtel National Inc., a unit of San Francisco-based Bechtel Corp., has also been selected by FEMA to provide short-term housing for people displaced by the hurricane. Bush named Bechtel’s CEO to his Export Council and put the former CEO of Bechtel Energy in charge of the Overseas Private Investment Corporation.     Experts say it has been common practice in both Republican and Democratic administrations for policy makers to take lobbying jobs once they leave office, and many of the same companies seeking contracts in the wake of Hurricane Katrina have already received billions of dollars for work in Iraq.     Halliburton alone has earned more than $9 billion. Pentagon audits released by Democrats in June showed $1.03 billion in "questioned" costs and $422 million in "unsupported" costs for Halliburton’s work in Iraq.     But the web of Bush administration connections is attracting renewed attention from watchdog groups in the post-Katrina reconstruction rush. Congress has already appropriated more than $60 billion in emergency funding as a down payment on recovery efforts projected to cost well over $100 billion.     "The government has got to stop stacking senior positions with people who are repeatedly cashing in on the public trust in order to further private commercial interests," said Danielle Brian, executive director of the Project on Government Oversight.     Two Bush Appointees at Halliburton     Allbaugh formally registered as a lobbyist for Halliburton subsidiary Kellogg Brown and Root in February.     In lobbying disclosure forms filed with the Senate, Allbaugh said his goal was to "educate the congressional and executive branch on defense, disaster relief and homeland security issues affecting Kellogg Brown and Root."     Melissa Norcross, a Halliburton spokeswoman, said Allbaugh has not, since he was hired, "consulted on any specific contracts that the company is considering pursuing, nor has he been tasked by the company with any lobbying responsibilities."     Allbaugh is also a friend of Michael Brown, director of FEMA who was removed as head of Katrina disaster relief and sent back to Washington amid allegations he had padded his resume.     A few months after Allbaugh was hired by Halliburton, the company retained another high-level Bush appointee, Kirk Van Tine.     Van Tine registered as a lobbyist for Halliburton six months after resigning as deputy transportation secretary, a position he held from December 2003 to December 2004.     On Friday, Kellogg Brown & Root received $29.8 million in Pentagon contracts to begin rebuilding Navy bases in Louisiana and Mississippi. Norcross said the work was covered under a contract that the company negotiated before Allbaugh was hired.     Halliburton continues to be a source of income for Cheney, who served as its chief executive officer from 1995 until 2000 when he joined the Republican ticket for the White House. According to tax filings released in April, Cheney’s income included $194,852 in deferred pay from the company, which has also won billion-dollar government contracts in Iraq.     Cheney’s office said the amount of deferred compensation is fixed and is not affected by Halliburton’s current economic performance or earnings.     Allbaugh’s other major client, Baton Rouge-based Shaw Group, has updated its Web site to say: "Hurricane Recovery Projects – Apply Here!"      Shaw said on Thursday it has received a $100 million emergency FEMA contract for housing management and construction. Shaw also clinched a $100 million order on Friday from the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers.     Shaw Group spokesman Chris Sammons said Allbaugh was providing the company with "general consulting on business matters," and would not say whether he played a direct role in any of the Katrina deals. "We don’t comment on specific consulting activities," he said. http://www.truthout.org/docs_2005/091105C.shtml

Response:

Thanks for posting this, zoot.  I was going to do so…but I’ve been pretty vocal lately.  I didn’t want to go over the top and post this, too. I’m glad you did, however. It’s another good lesson into what matters most within this administration. Mike

Response:

> Thanks for posting this, zoot.  I was going to do so…but > I’ve been pretty vocal lately.  I didn’t want to go over the > top and post this, too. > I’m glad you did, however. > It’s another good lesson into what matters most within this > administration. > Mike

yeah, it’s a welfare state

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Many of you have read and commented on my trip report on the Carnival Spirit > a few days ago. We came back to San Diego so high in spirits that we > attended their sales presentation offering ‘fabulous deals’ on future > cruises, time shares and flights that we actually signed up, paid our dues, > and walked away with a shopping bag full of books, pictures, credentials and > the like. > We though we had bought three cruises. > Guess what. > We get two… at no discount from what we paid for the first one and no > guaranties that we will get an upgrade nor even the cabin we request now, > six months and a year ahead of time. > Do I feel like I’ve been had? > I should be. But it was kind of expected. At least it’s not a major loss nor > gain and the trip was excellent and we are looking forward to the next > two…. even if at full price. > I post this note just so that if you are listening to their sales pitches on > this point thing instead of cash or value, be wary…. ask the right > questions. And there is no way out of these things with 27 pages of > contracts you have to sign, all in their favor. > My travel agent just told me this as she is trying to make the reservations. > I asked point blank if these club things were worth anything. She said there > may be better deals. > Also, Carnival salespeople said the deal was good for any cruise ship. We > tried to get one that went somewhere else and no go. The club memberships > are for the company you sign with. Be careful! > I thought we had signed for three cruises at the price we paid and > conditions told to us by the salespeople. So now I am going to ask my travel > agent to look for deals for a year and a half from now and I don’t care if > it’s not on Carnival. They had a chance to keep us as loyal customers for > life and they blew it with this little fib of theirs. > Are they all like this? > Wayne > www.pueblaprotocol.com

No. Which club is this?

Response:

> Many of you have read and commented on my trip report on the Carnival Spirit > a few days ago. We came back to San Diego so

—-snip— (thanks) Carnival Club

Response:

> Many of you have read and commented on my trip report on the Carnival Spirit > a few days ago. We came back to San Diego so

—snip— To add insult to injury, I asked point blank if my travel agent would get her commission and was told "Absolutely yes" – guess what… no commission. I now have to pay for her services! No problem, I can afford it. But is this the kind of honesty and mutual respect offered by the Carnival sales people? Wayne

Response:

> Are they all like this?

Yup.  You cannot do better than with a good travel agent.  If you spy what you think is a great deal…immediately call your TA with details and have him/her check it out. We had a great price on a 4 day Carnival last April, naturally they wanted us to book direct…we called our TA…he got us the same price and he got the commission. I am currently getting boatloads of promo stuff from HAL….email, direct-mail, etc…all with "member" specials.  But when I look online for HAL pricing, it is the same for anyone as it is for "members".  Simply amazing.

Response:

> To add insult to injury, I asked point blank if my travel agent would get > her commission and was told "Absolutely yes" – guess what… no commission. > I now have to pay for her services! > No problem, I can afford it. But is this the kind of honesty and mutual > respect offered by the Carnival sales people? > Wayne

Sorry for the scam. Hard to believe that Carnival would sponsor this or did they? I didn’t look very long but all I could come up with is this website. http://www.carnivaltc.com/  I didn’t see any enrollment info etc.  Why not post their and see what happens? Btw, why do you think you should pay your TA? The TA is to be paid by the cruise line.

Response:

Chrissy…  The last time I was on the Pride I ran into a section of cruise personnel that were stationed down in the main lobby for the sole purpose of selling a special long term cruise package…  as discussed in this thread. They worked me over pretty good…  since I have booked a bunch of sailings with them over the past four years.  I never did sign the papers…  probably cause I was never sober enough to know what the heck I was getting into… and all the contractual B.S. that went along with it.  (smile) But they had a special sales team aboard all week long pushing this "promo". To the best of my knowledge they have gotten pretty hard nose about commissions to outside TA’s.  If you book direct…  they ain’t getting any…  so to speak. It use to be…  if I booked direct my TA still got some of the action. Speaking of bookings…  I’m sailing on the Pride… January 16th. It will be an interesting transition after 60 days on a freighter. Best regards Bill

Response:

> Chrissy…  The last time I was on the Pride I ran into a > section of cruise personnel that were stationed down in the > main lobby for the sole purpose of selling a special long term > cruise package…  as discussed in this thread. > They worked me over pretty good…  since I have booked a > bunch of sailings with them over the past four years.  I never > did sign the papers…  probably cause I was never sober enough > to know what the heck I was getting into… and all the contractual > B.S. that went along with it.  (smile) But they had a special sales > team aboard all week long pushing this "promo".

Seen them before, avoided them like the plague. > To the best of my knowledge they have gotten pretty hard nose about > commissions to outside TA’s.  If you book direct…  they ain’t > getting any…  so to speak.

I haven’t been in that situation but it wouldn’t surprise me, Bill. > It use to be…  if I booked direct my TA still got some of the > action.

Yes, varied from line to line but, yes. > Speaking of bookings…  I’m sailing on the Pride… January 16th. > It will be an interesting transition after 60 days on a freighter. > Best regards > Bill

Good for you. Mexican Riviera. PV is a place I hear is very pretty. I want to do this with a PCanal out of Florida. Let us know how it goes.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> To add insult to injury, I asked point blank if my travel agent would get > her commission and was told "Absolutely yes" – guess what… no commission. > I now have to pay for her services! > No problem, I can afford it. But is this the kind of honesty and mutual > respect offered by the Carnival sales people? > Wayne > Sorry for the scam. Hard to believe that Carnival would sponsor this or did > they? > I didn’t look very long but all I could come up with is this website. > http://www.carnivaltc.com/  I didn’t see any enrollment info etc.  Why not > post their and see what happens? > Btw, why do you think you should pay your TA? The TA is to be paid by the > cruise line.

My TA is having troubles getting to cash my points with Carnival even though it’s a Carnival venture. It’s taking her three and a half days to get people at Carnival to work with her. And I asked, when buying the club membership, if my TA would get her commission. They said absolutely yes. My TA said no, that they are hedging on the point thing saying they can’t issue points to TAs. My TA said this is most likely due to the novelty of the cruise club product which she said has only been launched in a few ships and not fully debugged. Bottom line, I am not getting a penny’s extra value for putting over $3, 300 cash into Carnival’s pocket for use over the next five months and 11 months when I am trying… repeat, trying…. to get bookings. In chatting with Blanca my TA, we have decided that from now on we will look for deals to places my wife and I want to go and be done with it. My recommendation to anybody thinking of doing club memberships is to think twice and research other posters who may have something to ad as this string moves along with more input. The fact that the salespeople said we could use our points on any of the major cruise ships really ticks me off. They don’t. Wayne For some fun in getting to know more about Mexico why not start with the food? Check out my www.pueblaprotocol.com and go down a page where the fun starts. (Please pass this along to anybody you think would enjoy exploring pre conquest food in America) Free, a just for fun site – not selling nor promoting a thing.

Response:

> Are they all like this? > Yup.  You cannot do better than with a good travel agent.  If you spy what > you think is a great deal…immediately call your TA with details and have > him/her check it out. > We had a great price on a 4 day Carnival last April, naturally they wanted > us to book direct…we called our TA…he got us the same price and he got > the commission. > I am currently getting boatloads of promo stuff from HAL….email, > direct-mail, etc…all with "member" specials.  But when I look online for > HAL pricing, it is the same for anyone as it is for "members".  Simply > amazing.

It would appear that the Condo time share marketing people are wiggling their way into the cruise ship domain with this shift to points strategy. Our Coronado Beach Resort is still old fashioned week by week exchanges but we get a lot of invitations to free this or free that in order to hear the new point system. We listened, we enjoyed their hospitality, we declined. But were ’suckered’ into Carnival because of the superb time we had on that trip which led us to believe in the quality and honesty of their words. I really hope they wake up to this ‘mistake’ they are making. They lost a loyal customer family because of their little lie. I will now shop till I drop for the best deal and consider Carnival only on price and availability alone. Buyer beware! Wayne

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > My TA is having troubles getting to cash my points with Carnival even though > it’s a Carnival venture. It’s taking her three and a half days to get people > at Carnival to work with her. And I asked, when buying the club membership, > if my TA would get her commission. They said absolutely yes. My TA said no, > that they are hedging on the point thing saying they can’t issue points to > TAs. > My TA said this is most likely due to the novelty of the cruise club product > which she said has only been launched in a few ships and not fully debugged. > Bottom line, I am not getting a penny’s extra value for putting over $3, 300 > cash into Carnival’s pocket for use over the next five months and 11 months > when I am trying… repeat, trying…. to get bookings. > In chatting with Blanca my TA, we have decided that from now on we will look > for deals to places my wife and I want to go and be done with it. My > recommendation to anybody thinking of doing club memberships is to think > twice and research other posters who may have something to ad as this string > moves along with more input. The fact that the salespeople said we could use > our points on any of the major cruise ships really ticks me off. They don’t.

Wayne, your TA really needs to get a set of balls and go to bat for you with Carnival. For all practical purposes, you have been criminally defrauded. Do *not* pay here anything. She can get her commission, like the rest of us TA’s *from* *the* *cruisline* if she is due them.  MOF, her taking monies from you may be unethical and possibly illegal. It is her job to get this straightened out if she expects a commission. If none is legally due her, then she can either do you a favor or you will need to jump on Carnival’s back yourself. They have several 800 numbers so it will cost you time but nothing else. Also, let Carnival know you are posting this to RTC. They may not like the sordid publicity. Don’t roll over on this. I don’t care if the system is buggy, that’s their problem to solve. Got get your money back. If they can’t do what they are supposed to, and if they have lied to you, why do business with them at all? Btw, if you paid by credit card, get them involved on a dispute of the charge.

Response:

snip— > Got get your money back. If they can’t do what they are supposed to, and if > they have lied to you, why do business with them at all? > Btw, if you paid by credit card, get them involved on a dispute of the > charge.

—snip— Thank you. You are right. The problem is that I bought points and not a cruise nor anything tangible. And the 27 pages of fine print contract is all in their favor. Not even a Harvard lawyer would dare tackle the issue. The only reason I brought this up in the first place is to caution others who may be considering points and club memberships. Read the fine print! I’ll take my two cruises and chalk this up to learning curve and hope they learn from it as well. Can’t knock a great company for the errors of an obviously outside consulting firm who is probably taking Carnival to the cleaners. Wayne

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > snip— > Got get your money back. If they can’t do what they are supposed to, and > if > they have lied to you, why do business with them at all? > Btw, if you paid by credit card, get them involved on a dispute of the > charge. > —snip— > Thank you. You are right. The problem is that I bought points and not a > cruise nor anything tangible. And the 27 pages of fine print contract is > all > in their favor. Not even a Harvard lawyer would dare tackle the issue. > The only reason I brought this up in the first place is to caution others > who may be considering points and club memberships. Read the fine print! > I’ll take my two cruises and chalk this up to learning curve and hope they > learn from it as well. Can’t knock a great company for the errors of an > obviously outside consulting firm who is probably taking Carnival to the > cleaners. > Wayne

Complain, Complain. You are just like the other jew. Fredstien

Response:

No Fred, I’m not complaining. I’m sharing an experience which is only a grain of sand under my very comfortable mattress with Carnival. Wayne

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> snip— >> Got get your money back. If they can’t do what they are supposed to, and > if >> they have lied to you, why do business with them at all? >> Btw, if you paid by credit card, get them involved on a dispute of the >> charge. > —snip— > Thank you. You are right. The problem is that I bought points and not a > cruise nor anything tangible. And the 27 pages of fine print contract is > all > in their favor. Not even a Harvard lawyer would dare tackle the issue. > The only reason I brought this up in the first place is to caution others > who may be considering points and club memberships. Read the fine print! > I’ll take my two cruises and chalk this up to learning curve and hope they > learn from it as well. Can’t knock a great company for the errors of an > obviously outside consulting firm who is probably taking Carnival to the > cleaners. > Wayne > Complain, Complain. You are just like the other jew. > Fredstien

Response:

>Complain, Complain.

Reading the whole thread, given what has happened to him in this transaction, my reaction is that Wayne is more uncomplaining than 99% of us would be. If anything he should in all rights be complaining more.

Response:

> Reading the whole thread, given what has happened to him in this transaction, > my reaction is that Wayne is more uncomplaining than 99% of us would be. If > anything he should in all rights be complaining more.

Damn straight.

Response:

Thanks!

Response:

Sadly, you truncated the original post which was "Complain, Complain. You are just like the other jew.Fredstien" There is a difference, pal. — DG in Cherry Hill, NJ

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Complain, Complain. > Reading the whole thread, given what has happened to him in this transaction, > my reaction is that Wayne is more uncomplaining than 99% of us would be. If > anything he should in all rights be complaining more.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Many of you have read and commented on my trip report on the Carnival Spirit > a few days ago. We came back to San Diego so high in spirits that we > attended their sales presentation offering ‘fabulous deals’ on future > cruises, time shares and flights that we actually signed up, paid our dues, > and walked away with a shopping bag full of books, pictures, credentials and > the like. > We though we had bought three cruises. > Guess what. > We get two… at no discount from what we paid for the first one and no > guaranties that we will get an upgrade nor even the cabin we request now, > six months and a year ahead of time. > Do I feel like I’ve been had? > I should be. But it was kind of expected. At least it’s not a major loss nor > gain and the trip was excellent and we are looking forward to the next > two…. even if at full price. > I post this note just so that if you are listening to their sales pitches on > this point thing instead of cash or value, be wary…. ask the right > questions. And there is no way out of these things with 27 pages of > contracts you have to sign, all in their favor. > My travel agent just told me this as she is trying to make the reservations. > I asked point blank if these club things were worth anything. She said there > may be better deals. > Also, Carnival salespeople said the deal was good for any cruise ship. We > tried to get one that went somewhere else and no go. The club memberships > are for the company you sign with. Be careful! > I thought we had signed for three cruises at the price we paid and > conditions told to us by the salespeople. So now I am going to ask my travel > agent to look for deals for a year and a half from now and I don’t care if > it’s not on Carnival. They had a chance to keep us as loyal customers for > life and they blew it with this little fib of theirs. > Are they all like this? > Wayne > www.pueblaprotocol.com

Wayne, Guess you know now, but….."The value of something is in inverse proportion to the effort expended to sell it."  As the Southern comedian Dave Gardner would have said: "Them’s wise sayin’s!" Stranger

Response:

I would check with the Attorney Generals office of the State in which your Club "documents" are filed. There should be a number of days after you signed the documents where you retain a right of recision. This all sounds like a major rip, but then again that’s why I never travel on Carnival. I tried them twice and swore I’d NEVER give them a third opportunity.

Response:

Many of you have read and commented on my trip report on the Carnival Spirit a few days ago. We came back to San Diego so high in spirits that we attended their sales presentation offering ‘fabulous deals’ on future cruises, time shares and flights that we actually signed up, paid our dues, and walked away with a shopping bag full of books, pictures, credentials and the like. We though we had bought three cruises. Guess what. We get two… at no discount from what we paid for the first one and no guaranties that we will get an upgrade nor even the cabin we request now, six months and a year ahead of time. Do I feel like I’ve been had? I should be. But it was kind of expected. At least it’s not a major loss nor gain and the trip was excellent and we are looking forward to the next two…. even if at full price. I post this note just so that if you are listening to their sales pitches on this point thing instead of cash or value, be wary…. ask the right questions. And there is no way out of these things with 27 pages of contracts you have to sign, all in their favor. My travel agent just told me this as she is trying to make the reservations. I asked point blank if these club things were worth anything. She said there may be better deals. Also, Carnival salespeople said the deal was good for any cruise ship. We tried to get one that went somewhere else and no go. The club memberships are for the company you sign with. Be careful! I thought we had signed for three cruises at the price we paid and conditions told to us by the salespeople. So now I am going to ask my travel agent to look for deals for a year and a half from now and I don’t care if it’s not on Carnival. They had a chance to keep us as loyal customers for life and they blew it with this little fib of theirs. Are they all like this? Wayne www.pueblaprotocol.com

Response:

Many of you have read and commented on my trip report on the Carnival Spirit a few days ago. We came back to San Diego so high in spirits that we attended their sales presentation offering ‘fabulous deals’ on future cruises, time shares and flights that we actually signed up, paid our dues, and walked away with a shopping bag full of books, pictures, credentials and the like. We though we had bought three cruises. Guess what. We get two… at no discount from what we paid for the first one and no guaranties that we will get an upgrade nor even the cabin we request now, six months and a year ahead of time. Do I feel like I’ve been had? I should be. But it was kind of expected. At least it’s not a major loss nor gain and the trip was excellent and we are looking forward to the next two…. even if at full price. I post this note just so that if you are listening to their sales pitches on this point thing instead of cash or value, be wary…. ask the right questions. And there is no way out of these things with 27 pages of contracts you have to sign, all in their favor. My travel agent just told me this as she is trying to make the reservations. I asked point blank if these club things were worth anything. She said there may be better deals. Also, Carnival salespeople said the deal was good for any cruise ship. We tried to get one that went somewhere else and no go. The club memberships are for the company you sign with. Be careful! I thought we had signed for three cruises at the price we paid and conditions told to us by the salespeople. So now I am going to ask my travel agent to look for deals for a year and a half from now and I don’t care if it’s not on Carnival. They had a chance to keep us as loyal customers for life and they blew it with this little fib of theirs. Are they all like this? Wayne www.pueblaprotocol.com

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Many of you have read and commented on my trip report on the Carnival Spirit > a few days ago. We came back to San Diego so high in spirits that we > attended their sales presentation offering ‘fabulous deals’ on future > cruises, time shares and flights that we actually signed up, paid our dues, > and walked away with a shopping bag full of books, pictures, credentials and > the like. > We though we had bought three cruises. > Guess what. > We get two… at no discount from what we paid for the first one and no > guaranties that we will get an upgrade nor even the cabin we request now, > six months and a year ahead of time. > Do I feel like I’ve been had? > I should be. But it was kind of expected. At least it’s not a major loss nor > gain and the trip was excellent and we are looking forward to the next > two…. even if at full price. > I post this note just so that if you are listening to their sales pitches on > this point thing instead of cash or value, be wary…. ask the right > questions. And there is no way out of these things with 27 pages of > contracts you have to sign, all in their favor. > My travel agent just told me this as she is trying to make the reservations. > I asked point blank if these club things were worth anything. She said there > may be better deals. > Also, Carnival salespeople said the deal was good for any cruise ship. We > tried to get one that went somewhere else and no go. The club memberships > are for the company you sign with. Be careful! > I thought we had signed for three cruises at the price we paid and > conditions told to us by the salespeople. So now I am going to ask my travel > agent to look for deals for a year and a half from now and I don’t care if > it’s not on Carnival. They had a chance to keep us as loyal customers for > life and they blew it with this little fib of theirs. > Are they all like this? > Wayne > www.pueblaprotocol.com

No. Which club is this?

Response:

> Many of you have read and commented on my trip report on the Carnival Spirit > a few days ago. We came back to San Diego so

—-snip— (thanks) Carnival Club

Response:

> Many of you have read and commented on my trip report on the Carnival Spirit > a few days ago. We came back to San Diego so

—snip— To add insult to injury, I asked point blank if my travel agent would get her commission and was told "Absolutely yes" – guess what… no commission. I now have to pay for her services! No problem, I can afford it. But is this the kind of honesty and mutual respect offered by the Carnival sales people? Wayne

Response:

> Are they all like this?

Yup.  You cannot do better than with a good travel agent.  If you spy what you think is a great deal…immediately call your TA with details and have him/her check it out. We had a great price on a 4 day Carnival last April, naturally they wanted us to book direct…we called our TA…he got us the same price and he got the commission. I am currently getting boatloads of promo stuff from HAL….email, direct-mail, etc…all with "member" specials.  But when I look online for HAL pricing, it is the same for anyone as it is for "members".  Simply amazing.

Response:

> To add insult to injury, I asked point blank if my travel agent would get > her commission and was told "Absolutely yes" – guess what… no commission. > I now have to pay for her services! > No problem, I can afford it. But is this the kind of honesty and mutual > respect offered by the Carnival sales people? > Wayne

Sorry for the scam. Hard to believe that Carnival would sponsor this or did they? I didn’t look very long but all I could come up with is this website. http://www.carnivaltc.com/  I didn’t see any enrollment info etc.  Why not post their and see what happens? Btw, why do you think you should pay your TA? The TA is to be paid by the cruise line.

Response:

Chrissy…  The last time I was on the Pride I ran into a section of cruise personnel that were stationed down in the main lobby for the sole purpose of selling a special long term cruise package…  as discussed in this thread. They worked me over pretty good…  since I have booked a bunch of sailings with them over the past four years.  I never did sign the papers…  probably cause I was never sober enough to know what the heck I was getting into… and all the contractual B.S. that went along with it.  (smile) But they had a special sales team aboard all week long pushing this "promo". To the best of my knowledge they have gotten pretty hard nose about commissions to outside TA’s.  If you book direct…  they ain’t getting any…  so to speak. It use to be…  if I booked direct my TA still got some of the action. Speaking of bookings…  I’m sailing on the Pride… January 16th. It will be an interesting transition after 60 days on a freighter. Best regards Bill

Response:

> Chrissy…  The last time I was on the Pride I ran into a > section of cruise personnel that were stationed down in the > main lobby for the sole purpose of selling a special long term > cruise package…  as discussed in this thread. > They worked me over pretty good…  since I have booked a > bunch of sailings with them over the past four years.  I never > did sign the papers…  probably cause I was never sober enough > to know what the heck I was getting into… and all the contractual > B.S. that went along with it.  (smile) But they had a special sales > team aboard all week long pushing this "promo".

Seen them before, avoided them like the plague. > To the best of my knowledge they have gotten pretty hard nose about > commissions to outside TA’s.  If you book direct…  they ain’t > getting any…  so to speak.

I haven’t been in that situation but it wouldn’t surprise me, Bill. > It use to be…  if I booked direct my TA still got some of the > action.

Yes, varied from line to line but, yes. > Speaking of bookings…  I’m sailing on the Pride… January 16th. > It will be an interesting transition after 60 days on a freighter. > Best regards > Bill

Good for you. Mexican Riviera. PV is a place I hear is very pretty. I want to do this with a PCanal out of Florida. Let us know how it goes.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> To add insult to injury, I asked point blank if my travel agent would get > her commission and was told "Absolutely yes" – guess what… no commission. > I now have to pay for her services! > No problem, I can afford it. But is this the kind of honesty and mutual > respect offered by the Carnival sales people? > Wayne > Sorry for the scam. Hard to believe that Carnival would sponsor this or did > they? > I didn’t look very long but all I could come up with is this website. > http://www.carnivaltc.com/  I didn’t see any enrollment info etc.  Why not > post their and see what happens? > Btw, why do you think you should pay your TA? The TA is to be paid by the > cruise line.

My TA is having troubles getting to cash my points with Carnival even though it’s a Carnival venture. It’s taking her three and a half days to get people at Carnival to work with her. And I asked, when buying the club membership, if my TA would get her commission. They said absolutely yes. My TA said no, that they are hedging on the point thing saying they can’t issue points to TAs. My TA said this is most likely due to the novelty of the cruise club product which she said has only been launched in a few ships and not fully debugged. Bottom line, I am not getting a penny’s extra value for putting over $3, 300 cash into Carnival’s pocket for use over the next five months and 11 months when I am trying… repeat, trying…. to get bookings. In chatting with Blanca my TA, we have decided that from now on we will look for deals to places my wife and I want to go and be done with it. My recommendation to anybody thinking of doing club memberships is to think twice and research other posters who may have something to ad as this string moves along with more input. The fact that the salespeople said we could use our points on any of the major cruise ships really ticks me off. They don’t. Wayne For some fun in getting to know more about Mexico why not start with the food? Check out my www.pueblaprotocol.com and go down a page where the fun starts. (Please pass this along to anybody you think would enjoy exploring pre conquest food in America) Free, a just for fun site – not selling nor promoting a thing.

Response:

> Are they all like this? > Yup.  You cannot do better than with a good travel agent.  If you spy what > you think is a great deal…immediately call your TA with details and have > him/her check it out. > We had a great price on a 4 day Carnival last April, naturally they wanted > us to book direct…we called our TA…he got us the same price and he got > the commission. > I am currently getting boatloads of promo stuff from HAL….email, > direct-mail, etc…all with "member" specials.  But when I look online for > HAL pricing, it is the same for anyone as it is for "members".  Simply > amazing.

It would appear that the Condo time share marketing people are wiggling their way into the cruise ship domain with this shift to points strategy. Our Coronado Beach Resort is still old fashioned week by week exchanges but we get a lot of invitations to free this or free that in order to hear the new point system. We listened, we enjoyed their hospitality, we declined. But were ’suckered’ into Carnival because of the superb time we had on that trip which led us to believe in the quality and honesty of their words. I really hope they wake up to this ‘mistake’ they are making. They lost a loyal customer family because of their little lie. I will now shop till I drop for the best deal and consider Carnival only on price and availability alone. Buyer beware! Wayne

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > My TA is having troubles getting to cash my points with Carnival even though > it’s a Carnival venture. It’s taking her three and a half days to get people > at Carnival to work with her. And I asked, when buying the club membership, > if my TA would get her commission. They said absolutely yes. My TA said no, > that they are hedging on the point thing saying they can’t issue points to > TAs. > My TA said this is most likely due to the novelty of the cruise club product > which she said has only been launched in a few ships and not fully debugged. > Bottom line, I am not getting a penny’s extra value for putting over $3, 300 > cash into Carnival’s pocket for use over the next five months and 11 months > when I am trying… repeat, trying…. to get bookings. > In chatting with Blanca my TA, we have decided that from now on we will look > for deals to places my wife and I want to go and be done with it. My > recommendation to anybody thinking of doing club memberships is to think > twice and research other posters who may have something to ad as this string > moves along with more input. The fact that the salespeople said we could use > our points on any of the major cruise ships really ticks me off. They don’t.

Wayne, your TA really needs to get a set of balls and go to bat for you with Carnival. For all practical purposes, you have been criminally defrauded. Do *not* pay here anything. She can get her commission, like the rest of us TA’s *from* *the* *cruisline* if she is due them.  MOF, her taking monies from you may be unethical and possibly illegal. It is her job to get this straightened out if she expects a commission. If none is legally due her, then she can either do you a favor or you will need to jump on Carnival’s back yourself. They have several 800 numbers so it will cost you time but nothing else. Also, let Carnival know you are posting this to RTC. They may not like the sordid publicity. Don’t roll over on this. I don’t care if the system is buggy, that’s their problem to solve. Got get your money back. If they can’t do what they are supposed to, and if they have lied to you, why do business with them at all? Btw, if you paid by credit card, get them involved on a dispute of the charge.

Response:

snip— > Got get your money back. If they can’t do what they are supposed to, and if > they have lied to you, why do business with them at all? > Btw, if you paid by credit card, get them involved on a dispute of the > charge.

—snip— Thank you. You are right. The problem is that I bought points and not a cruise nor anything tangible. And the 27 pages of fine print contract is all in their favor. Not even a Harvard lawyer would dare tackle the issue. The only reason I brought this up in the first place is to caution others who may be considering points and club memberships. Read the fine print! I’ll take my two cruises and chalk this up to learning curve and hope they learn from it as well. Can’t knock a great company for the errors of an obviously outside consulting firm who is probably taking Carnival to the cleaners. Wayne

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > snip— > Got get your money back. If they can’t do what they are supposed to, and > if > they have lied to you, why do business with them at all? > Btw, if you paid by credit card, get them involved on a dispute of the > charge. > —snip— > Thank you. You are right. The problem is that I bought points and not a > cruise nor anything tangible. And the 27 pages of fine print contract is > all > in their favor. Not even a Harvard lawyer would dare tackle the issue. > The only reason I brought this up in the first place is to caution others > who may be considering points and club memberships. Read the fine print! > I’ll take my two cruises and chalk this up to learning curve and hope they > learn from it as well. Can’t knock a great company for the errors of an > obviously outside consulting firm who is probably taking Carnival to the > cleaners. > Wayne

Complain, Complain. You are just like the other jew. Fredstien

Response:

No Fred, I’m not complaining. I’m sharing an experience which is only a grain of sand under my very comfortable mattress with Carnival. Wayne

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> snip— >> Got get your money back. If they can’t do what they are supposed to, and > if >> they have lied to you, why do business with them at all? >> Btw, if you paid by credit card, get them involved on a dispute of the >> charge. > —snip— > Thank you. You are right. The problem is that I bought points and not a > cruise nor anything tangible. And the 27 pages of fine print contract is > all > in their favor. Not even a Harvard lawyer would dare tackle the issue. > The only reason I brought this up in the first place is to caution others > who may be considering points and club memberships. Read the fine print! > I’ll take my two cruises and chalk this up to learning curve and hope they > learn from it as well. Can’t knock a great company for the errors of an > obviously outside consulting firm who is probably taking Carnival to the > cleaners. > Wayne > Complain, Complain. You are just like the other jew. > Fredstien

Response:

>Complain, Complain.

Reading the whole thread, given what has happened to him in this transaction, my reaction is that Wayne is more uncomplaining than 99% of us would be. If anything he should in all rights be complaining more.

Response:

> Reading the whole thread, given what has happened to him in this transaction, > my reaction is that Wayne is more uncomplaining than 99% of us would be. If > anything he should in all rights be complaining more.

Damn straight.

Response:

Thanks!

Response:

Sadly, you truncated the original post which was "Complain, Complain. You are just like the other jew.Fredstien" There is a difference, pal. — DG in Cherry Hill, NJ

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Complain, Complain. > Reading the whole thread, given what has happened to him in this transaction, > my reaction is that Wayne is more uncomplaining than 99% of us would be. If > anything he should in all rights be complaining more.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Many of you have read and commented on my trip report on the Carnival Spirit > a few days ago. We came back to San Diego so high in spirits that we > attended their sales presentation offering ‘fabulous deals’ on future > cruises, time shares and flights that we actually signed up, paid our dues, > and walked away with a shopping bag full of books, pictures, credentials and > the like. > We though we had bought three cruises. > Guess what. > We get two… at no discount from what we paid for the first one and no > guaranties that we will get an upgrade nor even the cabin we request now, > six months and a year ahead of time. > Do I feel like I’ve been had? > I should be. But it was kind of expected. At least it’s not a major loss nor > gain and the trip was excellent and we are looking forward to the next > two…. even if at full price. > I post this note just so that if you are listening to their sales pitches on > this point thing instead of cash or value, be wary…. ask the right > questions. And there is no way out of these things with 27 pages of > contracts you have to sign, all in their favor. > My travel agent just told me this as she is trying to make the reservations. > I asked point blank if these club things were worth anything. She said there > may be better deals. > Also, Carnival salespeople said the deal was good for any cruise ship. We > tried to get one that went somewhere else and no go. The club memberships > are for the company you sign with. Be careful! > I thought we had signed for three cruises at the price we paid and > conditions told to us by the salespeople. So now I am going to ask my travel > agent to look for deals for a year and a half from now and I don’t care if > it’s not on Carnival. They had a chance to keep us as loyal customers for > life and they blew it with this little fib of theirs. > Are they all like this? > Wayne > www.pueblaprotocol.com

Wayne, Guess you know now, but….."The value of something is in inverse proportion to the effort expended to sell it."  As the Southern comedian Dave Gardner would have said: "Them’s wise sayin’s!" Stranger

Response:

I would check with the Attorney Generals office of the State in which your Club "documents" are filed. There should be a number of days after you signed the documents where you retain a right of recision. This all sounds like a major rip, but then again that’s why I never travel on Carnival. I tried them twice and swore I’d NEVER give them a third opportunity.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Many of you have read and commented on my trip report on the Carnival Spirit > a few days ago. We came back to San Diego so high in spirits that we > attended their sales presentation offering ‘fabulous deals’ on future > cruises, time shares and flights that we actually signed up, paid our dues, > and walked away with a shopping bag full of books, pictures, credentials and > the like. > We though we had bought three cruises. > Guess what. > We get two… at no discount from what we paid for the first one and no > guaranties that we will get an upgrade nor even the cabin we request now, > six months and a year ahead of time. > Do I feel like I’ve been had? > I should be. But it was kind of expected. At least it’s not a major loss nor > gain and the trip was excellent and we are looking forward to the next > two…. even if at full price. > I post this note just so that if you are listening to their sales pitches on > this point thing instead of cash or value, be wary…. ask the right > questions. And there is no way out of these things with 27 pages of > contracts you have to sign, all in their favor. > My travel agent just told me this as she is trying to make the reservations. > I asked point blank if these club things were worth anything. She said there > may be better deals. > Also, Carnival salespeople said the deal was good for any cruise ship. We > tried to get one that went somewhere else and no go. The club memberships > are for the company you sign with. Be careful! > I thought we had signed for three cruises at the price we paid and > conditions told to us by the salespeople. So now I am going to ask my travel > agent to look for deals for a year and a half from now and I don’t care if > it’s not on Carnival. They had a chance to keep us as loyal customers for > life and they blew it with this little fib of theirs. > Are they all like this? > Wayne > www.pueblaprotocol.com

No. Which club is this?

Response:

> Many of you have read and commented on my trip report on the Carnival Spirit > a few days ago. We came back to San Diego so

—-snip— (thanks) Carnival Club

Response:

> Many of you have read and commented on my trip report on the Carnival Spirit > a few days ago. We came back to San Diego so

—snip— To add insult to injury, I asked point blank if my travel agent would get her commission and was told "Absolutely yes" – guess what… no commission. I now have to pay for her services! No problem, I can afford it. But is this the kind of honesty and mutual respect offered by the Carnival sales people? Wayne

Response:

> Are they all like this?

Yup.  You cannot do better than with a good travel agent.  If you spy what you think is a great deal…immediately call your TA with details and have him/her check it out. We had a great price on a 4 day Carnival last April, naturally they wanted us to book direct…we called our TA…he got us the same price and he got the commission. I am currently getting boatloads of promo stuff from HAL….email, direct-mail, etc…all with "member" specials.  But when I look online for HAL pricing, it is the same for anyone as it is for "members".  Simply amazing.

Response:

> To add insult to injury, I asked point blank if my travel agent would get > her commission and was told "Absolutely yes" – guess what… no commission. > I now have to pay for her services! > No problem, I can afford it. But is this the kind of honesty and mutual > respect offered by the Carnival sales people? > Wayne

Sorry for the scam. Hard to believe that Carnival would sponsor this or did they? I didn’t look very long but all I could come up with is this website. http://www.carnivaltc.com/  I didn’t see any enrollment info etc.  Why not post their and see what happens? Btw, why do you think you should pay your TA? The TA is to be paid by the cruise line.

Response:

Chrissy…  The last time I was on the Pride I ran into a section of cruise personnel that were stationed down in the main lobby for the sole purpose of selling a special long term cruise package…  as discussed in this thread. They worked me over pretty good…  since I have booked a bunch of sailings with them over the past four years.  I never did sign the papers…  probably cause I was never sober enough to know what the heck I was getting into… and all the contractual B.S. that went along with it.  (smile) But they had a special sales team aboard all week long pushing this "promo". To the best of my knowledge they have gotten pretty hard nose about commissions to outside TA’s.  If you book direct…  they ain’t getting any…  so to speak. It use to be…  if I booked direct my TA still got some of the action. Speaking of bookings…  I’m sailing on the Pride… January 16th. It will be an interesting transition after 60 days on a freighter. Best regards Bill

Response:

> Chrissy…  The last time I was on the Pride I ran into a > section of cruise personnel that were stationed down in the > main lobby for the sole purpose of selling a special long term > cruise package…  as discussed in this thread. > They worked me over pretty good…  since I have booked a > bunch of sailings with them over the past four years.  I never > did sign the papers…  probably cause I was never sober enough > to know what the heck I was getting into… and all the contractual > B.S. that went along with it.  (smile) But they had a special sales > team aboard all week long pushing this "promo".

Seen them before, avoided them like the plague. > To the best of my knowledge they have gotten pretty hard nose about > commissions to outside TA’s.  If you book direct…  they ain’t > getting any…  so to speak.

I haven’t been in that situation but it wouldn’t surprise me, Bill. > It use to be…  if I booked direct my TA still got some of the > action.

Yes, varied from line to line but, yes. > Speaking of bookings…  I’m sailing on the Pride… January 16th. > It will be an interesting transition after 60 days on a freighter. > Best regards > Bill

Good for you. Mexican Riviera. PV is a place I hear is very pretty. I want to do this with a PCanal out of Florida. Let us know how it goes.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> To add insult to injury, I asked point blank if my travel agent would get > her commission and was told "Absolutely yes" – guess what… no commission. > I now have to pay for her services! > No problem, I can afford it. But is this the kind of honesty and mutual > respect offered by the Carnival sales people? > Wayne > Sorry for the scam. Hard to believe that Carnival would sponsor this or did > they? > I didn’t look very long but all I could come up with is this website. > http://www.carnivaltc.com/  I didn’t see any enrollment info etc.  Why not > post their and see what happens? > Btw, why do you think you should pay your TA? The TA is to be paid by the > cruise line.

My TA is having troubles getting to cash my points with Carnival even though it’s a Carnival venture. It’s taking her three and a half days to get people at Carnival to work with her. And I asked, when buying the club membership, if my TA would get her commission. They said absolutely yes. My TA said no, that they are hedging on the point thing saying they can’t issue points to TAs. My TA said this is most likely due to the novelty of the cruise club product which she said has only been launched in a few ships and not fully debugged. Bottom line, I am not getting a penny’s extra value for putting over $3, 300 cash into Carnival’s pocket for use over the next five months and 11 months when I am trying… repeat, trying…. to get bookings. In chatting with Blanca my TA, we have decided that from now on we will look for deals to places my wife and I want to go and be done with it. My recommendation to anybody thinking of doing club memberships is to think twice and research other posters who may have something to ad as this string moves along with more input. The fact that the salespeople said we could use our points on any of the major cruise ships really ticks me off. They don’t. Wayne For some fun in getting to know more about Mexico why not start with the food? Check out my www.pueblaprotocol.com and go down a page where the fun starts. (Please pass this along to anybody you think would enjoy exploring pre conquest food in America) Free, a just for fun site – not selling nor promoting a thing.

Response:

> Are they all like this? > Yup.  You cannot do better than with a good travel agent.  If you spy what > you think is a great deal…immediately call your TA with details and have > him/her check it out. > We had a great price on a 4 day Carnival last April, naturally they wanted > us to book direct…we called our TA…he got us the same price and he got > the commission. > I am currently getting boatloads of promo stuff from HAL….email, > direct-mail, etc…all with "member" specials.  But when I look online for > HAL pricing, it is the same for anyone as it is for "members".  Simply > amazing.

It would appear that the Condo time share marketing people are wiggling their way into the cruise ship domain with this shift to points strategy. Our Coronado Beach Resort is still old fashioned week by week exchanges but we get a lot of invitations to free this or free that in order to hear the new point system. We listened, we enjoyed their hospitality, we declined. But were ’suckered’ into Carnival because of the superb time we had on that trip which led us to believe in the quality and honesty of their words. I really hope they wake up to this ‘mistake’ they are making. They lost a loyal customer family because of their little lie. I will now shop till I drop for the best deal and consider Carnival only on price and availability alone. Buyer beware! Wayne

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > My TA is having troubles getting to cash my points with Carnival even though > it’s a Carnival venture. It’s taking her three and a half days to get people > at Carnival to work with her. And I asked, when buying the club membership, > if my TA would get her commission. They said absolutely yes. My TA said no, > that they are hedging on the point thing saying they can’t issue points to > TAs. > My TA said this is most likely due to the novelty of the cruise club product > which she said has only been launched in a few ships and not fully debugged. > Bottom line, I am not getting a penny’s extra value for putting over $3, 300 > cash into Carnival’s pocket for use over the next five months and 11 months > when I am trying… repeat, trying…. to get bookings. > In chatting with Blanca my TA, we have decided that from now on we will look > for deals to places my wife and I want to go and be done with it. My > recommendation to anybody thinking of doing club memberships is to think > twice and research other posters who may have something to ad as this string > moves along with more input. The fact that the salespeople said we could use > our points on any of the major cruise ships really ticks me off. They don’t.

Wayne, your TA really needs to get a set of balls and go to bat for you with Carnival. For all practical purposes, you have been criminally defrauded. Do *not* pay here anything. She can get her commission, like the rest of us TA’s *from* *the* *cruisline* if she is due them.  MOF, her taking monies from you may be unethical and possibly illegal. It is her job to get this straightened out if she expects a commission. If none is legally due her, then she can either do you a favor or you will need to jump on Carnival’s back yourself. They have several 800 numbers so it will cost you time but nothing else. Also, let Carnival know you are posting this to RTC. They may not like the sordid publicity. Don’t roll over on this. I don’t care if the system is buggy, that’s their problem to solve. Got get your money back. If they can’t do what they are supposed to, and if they have lied to you, why do business with them at all? Btw, if you paid by credit card, get them involved on a dispute of the charge.

Response:

snip— > Got get your money back. If they can’t do what they are supposed to, and if > they have lied to you, why do business with them at all? > Btw, if you paid by credit card, get them involved on a dispute of the > charge.

—snip— Thank you. You are right. The problem is that I bought points and not a cruise nor anything tangible. And the 27 pages of fine print contract is all in their favor. Not even a Harvard lawyer would dare tackle the issue. The only reason I brought this up in the first place is to caution others who may be considering points and club memberships. Read the fine print! I’ll take my two cruises and chalk this up to learning curve and hope they learn from it as well. Can’t knock a great company for the errors of an obviously outside consulting firm who is probably taking Carnival to the cleaners. Wayne

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > snip— > Got get your money back. If they can’t do what they are supposed to, and > if > they have lied to you, why do business with them at all? > Btw, if you paid by credit card, get them involved on a dispute of the > charge. > —snip— > Thank you. You are right. The problem is that I bought points and not a > cruise nor anything tangible. And the 27 pages of fine print contract is > all > in their favor. Not even a Harvard lawyer would dare tackle the issue. > The only reason I brought this up in the first place is to caution others > who may be considering points and club memberships. Read the fine print! > I’ll take my two cruises and chalk this up to learning curve and hope they > learn from it as well. Can’t knock a great company for the errors of an > obviously outside consulting firm who is probably taking Carnival to the > cleaners. > Wayne

Complain, Complain. You are just like the other jew. Fredstien

Response:

No Fred, I’m not complaining. I’m sharing an experience which is only a grain of sand under my very comfortable mattress with Carnival. Wayne

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> snip— >> Got get your money back. If they can’t do what they are supposed to, and > if >> they have lied to you, why do business with them at all? >> Btw, if you paid by credit card, get them involved on a dispute of the >> charge. > —snip— > Thank you. You are right. The problem is that I bought points and not a > cruise nor anything tangible. And the 27 pages of fine print contract is > all > in their favor. Not even a Harvard lawyer would dare tackle the issue. > The only reason I brought this up in the first place is to caution others > who may be considering points and club memberships. Read the fine print! > I’ll take my two cruises and chalk this up to learning curve and hope they > learn from it as well. Can’t knock a great company for the errors of an > obviously outside consulting firm who is probably taking Carnival to the > cleaners. > Wayne > Complain, Complain. You are just like the other jew. > Fredstien

Response:

>Complain, Complain.

Reading the whole thread, given what has happened to him in this transaction, my reaction is that Wayne is more uncomplaining than 99% of us would be. If anything he should in all rights be complaining more.

Response:

> Reading the whole thread, given what has happened to him in this transaction, > my reaction is that Wayne is more uncomplaining than 99% of us would be. If > anything he should in all rights be complaining more.

Damn straight.

Response:

Thanks!

Response:

Sadly, you truncated the original post which was "Complain, Complain. You are just like the other jew.Fredstien" There is a difference, pal. — DG in Cherry Hill, NJ

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Complain, Complain. > Reading the whole thread, given what has happened to him in this transaction, > my reaction is that Wayne is more uncomplaining than 99% of us would be. If > anything he should in all rights be complaining more.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Many of you have read and commented on my trip report on the Carnival Spirit > a few days ago. We came back to San Diego so high in spirits that we > attended their sales presentation offering ‘fabulous deals’ on future > cruises, time shares and flights that we actually signed up, paid our dues, > and walked away with a shopping bag full of books, pictures, credentials and > the like. > We though we had bought three cruises. > Guess what. > We get two… at no discount from what we paid for the first one and no > guaranties that we will get an upgrade nor even the cabin we request now, > six months and a year ahead of time. > Do I feel like I’ve been had? > I should be. But it was kind of expected. At least it’s not a major loss nor > gain and the trip was excellent and we are looking forward to the next > two…. even if at full price. > I post this note just so that if you are listening to their sales pitches on > this point thing instead of cash or value, be wary…. ask the right > questions. And there is no way out of these things with 27 pages of > contracts you have to sign, all in their favor. > My travel agent just told me this as she is trying to make the reservations. > I asked point blank if these club things were worth anything. She said there > may be better deals. > Also, Carnival salespeople said the deal was good for any cruise ship. We > tried to get one that went somewhere else and no go. The club memberships > are for the company you sign with. Be careful! > I thought we had signed for three cruises at the price we paid and > conditions told to us by the salespeople. So now I am going to ask my travel > agent to look for deals for a year and a half from now and I don’t care if > it’s not on Carnival. They had a chance to keep us as loyal customers for > life and they blew it with this little fib of theirs. > Are they all like this? > Wayne > www.pueblaprotocol.com

Wayne, Guess you know now, but….."The value of something is in inverse proportion to the effort expended to sell it."  As the Southern comedian Dave Gardner would have said: "Them’s wise sayin’s!" Stranger

Response:

I would check with the Attorney Generals office of the State in which your Club "documents" are filed. There should be a number of days after you signed the documents where you retain a right of recision. This all sounds like a major rip, but then again that’s why I never travel on Carnival. I tried them twice and swore I’d NEVER give them a third opportunity.

Response:

Many of you have read and commented on my trip report on the Carnival Spirit a few days ago. We came back to San Diego so high in spirits that we attended their sales presentation offering ‘fabulous deals’ on future cruises, time shares and flights that we actually signed up, paid our dues, and walked away with a shopping bag full of books, pictures, credentials and the like. We though we had bought three cruises. Guess what. We get two… at no discount from what we paid for the first one and no guaranties that we will get an upgrade nor even the cabin we request now, six months and a year ahead of time. Do I feel like I’ve been had? I should be. But it was kind of expected. At least it’s not a major loss nor gain and the trip was excellent and we are looking forward to the next two…. even if at full price. I post this note just so that if you are listening to their sales pitches on this point thing instead of cash or value, be wary…. ask the right questions. And there is no way out of these things with 27 pages of contracts you have to sign, all in their favor. My travel agent just told me this as she is trying to make the reservations. I asked point blank if these club things were worth anything. She said there may be better deals. Also, Carnival salespeople said the deal was good for any cruise ship. We tried to get one that went somewhere else and no go. The club memberships are for the company you sign with. Be careful! I thought we had signed for three cruises at the price we paid and conditions told to us by the salespeople. So now I am going to ask my travel agent to look for deals for a year and a half from now and I don’t care if it’s not on Carnival. They had a chance to keep us as loyal customers for life and they blew it with this little fib of theirs. Are they all like this? Wayne www.pueblaprotocol.com

Response:

Many of you have read and commented on my trip report on the Carnival Spirit a few days ago. We came back to San Diego so high in spirits that we attended their sales presentation offering ‘fabulous deals’ on future cruises, time shares and flights that we actually signed up, paid our dues, and walked away with a shopping bag full of books, pictures, credentials and the like. We though we had bought three cruises. Guess what. We get two… at no discount from what we paid for the first one and no guaranties that we will get an upgrade nor even the cabin we request now, six months and a year ahead of time. Do I feel like I’ve been had? I should be. But it was kind of expected. At least it’s not a major loss nor gain and the trip was excellent and we are looking forward to the next two…. even if at full price. I post this note just so that if you are listening to their sales pitches on this point thing instead of cash or value, be wary…. ask the right questions. And there is no way out of these things with 27 pages of contracts you have to sign, all in their favor. My travel agent just told me this as she is trying to make the reservations. I asked point blank if these club things were worth anything. She said there may be better deals. Also, Carnival salespeople said the deal was good for any cruise ship. We tried to get one that went somewhere else and no go. The club memberships are for the company you sign with. Be careful! I thought we had signed for three cruises at the price we paid and conditions told to us by the salespeople. So now I am going to ask my travel agent to look for deals for a year and a half from now and I don’t care if it’s not on Carnival. They had a chance to keep us as loyal customers for life and they blew it with this little fib of theirs. Are they all like this? Wayne www.pueblaprotocol.com

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Many of you have read and commented on my trip report on the Carnival Spirit > a few days ago. We came back to San Diego so high in spirits that we > attended their sales presentation offering ‘fabulous deals’ on future > cruises, time shares and flights that we actually signed up, paid our dues, > and walked away with a shopping bag full of books, pictures, credentials and > the like. > We though we had bought three cruises. > Guess what. > We get two… at no discount from what we paid for the first one and no > guaranties that we will get an upgrade nor even the cabin we request now, > six months and a year ahead of time. > Do I feel like I’ve been had? > I should be. But it was kind of expected. At least it’s not a major loss nor > gain and the trip was excellent and we are looking forward to the next > two…. even if at full price. > I post this note just so that if you are listening to their sales pitches on > this point thing instead of cash or value, be wary…. ask the right > questions. And there is no way out of these things with 27 pages of > contracts you have to sign, all in their favor. > My travel agent just told me this as she is trying to make the reservations. > I asked point blank if these club things were worth anything. She said there > may be better deals. > Also, Carnival salespeople said the deal was good for any cruise ship. We > tried to get one that went somewhere else and no go. The club memberships > are for the company you sign with. Be careful! > I thought we had signed for three cruises at the price we paid and > conditions told to us by the salespeople. So now I am going to ask my travel > agent to look for deals for a year and a half from now and I don’t care if > it’s not on Carnival. They had a chance to keep us as loyal customers for > life and they blew it with this little fib of theirs. > Are they all like this? > Wayne > www.pueblaprotocol.com

No. Which club is this?

Response:

> Many of you have read and commented on my trip report on the Carnival Spirit > a few days ago. We came back to San Diego so

—-snip— (thanks) Carnival Club

Response:

> Many of you have read and commented on my trip report on the Carnival Spirit > a few days ago. We came back to San Diego so

—snip— To add insult to injury, I asked point blank if my travel agent would get her commission and was told "Absolutely yes" – guess what… no commission. I now have to pay for her services! No problem, I can afford it. But is this the kind of honesty and mutual respect offered by the Carnival sales people? Wayne

Response:

> Are they all like this?

Yup.  You cannot do better than with a good travel agent.  If you spy what you think is a great deal…immediately call your TA with details and have him/her check it out. We had a great price on a 4 day Carnival last April, naturally they wanted us to book direct…we called our TA…he got us the same price and he got the commission. I am currently getting boatloads of promo stuff from HAL….email, direct-mail, etc…all with "member" specials.  But when I look online for HAL pricing, it is the same for anyone as it is for "members".  Simply amazing.

Response:

> To add insult to injury, I asked point blank if my travel agent would get > her commission and was told "Absolutely yes" – guess what… no commission. > I now have to pay for her services! > No problem, I can afford it. But is this the kind of honesty and mutual > respect offered by the Carnival sales people? > Wayne

Sorry for the scam. Hard to believe that Carnival would sponsor this or did they? I didn’t look very long but all I could come up with is this website. http://www.carnivaltc.com/  I didn’t see any enrollment info etc.  Why not post their and see what happens? Btw, why do you think you should pay your TA? The TA is to be paid by the cruise line.

Response:

Chrissy…  The last time I was on the Pride I ran into a section of cruise personnel that were stationed down in the main lobby for the sole purpose of selling a special long term cruise package…  as discussed in this thread. They worked me over pretty good…  since I have booked a bunch of sailings with them over the past four years.  I never did sign the papers…  probably cause I was never sober enough to know what the heck I was getting into… and all the contractual B.S. that went along with it.  (smile) But they had a special sales team aboard all week long pushing this "promo". To the best of my knowledge they have gotten pretty hard nose about commissions to outside TA’s.  If you book direct…  they ain’t getting any…  so to speak. It use to be…  if I booked direct my TA still got some of the action. Speaking of bookings…  I’m sailing on the Pride… January 16th. It will be an interesting transition after 60 days on a freighter. Best regards Bill

Response:

> Chrissy…  The last time I was on the Pride I ran into a > section of cruise personnel that were stationed down in the > main lobby for the sole purpose of selling a special long term > cruise package…  as discussed in this thread. > They worked me over pretty good…  since I have booked a > bunch of sailings with them over the past four years.  I never > did sign the papers…  probably cause I was never sober enough > to know what the heck I was getting into… and all the contractual > B.S. that went along with it.  (smile) But they had a special sales > team aboard all week long pushing this "promo".

Seen them before, avoided them like the plague. > To the best of my knowledge they have gotten pretty hard nose about > commissions to outside TA’s.  If you book direct…  they ain’t > getting any…  so to speak.

I haven’t been in that situation but it wouldn’t surprise me, Bill. > It use to be…  if I booked direct my TA still got some of the > action.

Yes, varied from line to line but, yes. > Speaking of bookings…  I’m sailing on the Pride… January 16th. > It will be an interesting transition after 60 days on a freighter. > Best regards > Bill

Good for you. Mexican Riviera. PV is a place I hear is very pretty. I want to do this with a PCanal out of Florida. Let us know how it goes.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> To add insult to injury, I asked point blank if my travel agent would get > her commission and was told "Absolutely yes" – guess what… no commission. > I now have to pay for her services! > No problem, I can afford it. But is this the kind of honesty and mutual > respect offered by the Carnival sales people? > Wayne > Sorry for the scam. Hard to believe that Carnival would sponsor this or did > they? > I didn’t look very long but all I could come up with is this website. > http://www.carnivaltc.com/  I didn’t see any enrollment info etc.  Why not > post their and see what happens? > Btw, why do you think you should pay your TA? The TA is to be paid by the > cruise line.

My TA is having troubles getting to cash my points with Carnival even though it’s a Carnival venture. It’s taking her three and a half days to get people at Carnival to work with her. And I asked, when buying the club membership, if my TA would get her commission. They said absolutely yes. My TA said no, that they are hedging on the point thing saying they can’t issue points to TAs. My TA said this is most likely due to the novelty of the cruise club product which she said has only been launched in a few ships and not fully debugged. Bottom line, I am not getting a penny’s extra value for putting over $3, 300 cash into Carnival’s pocket for use over the next five months and 11 months when I am trying… repeat, trying…. to get bookings. In chatting with Blanca my TA, we have decided that from now on we will look for deals to places my wife and I want to go and be done with it. My recommendation to anybody thinking of doing club memberships is to think twice and research other posters who may have something to ad as this string moves along with more input. The fact that the salespeople said we could use our points on any of the major cruise ships really ticks me off. They don’t. Wayne For some fun in getting to know more about Mexico why not start with the food? Check out my www.pueblaprotocol.com and go down a page where the fun starts. (Please pass this along to anybody you think would enjoy exploring pre conquest food in America) Free, a just for fun site – not selling nor promoting a thing.

Response:

> Are they all like this? > Yup.  You cannot do better than with a good travel agent.  If you spy what > you think is a great deal…immediately call your TA with details and have > him/her check it out. > We had a great price on a 4 day Carnival last April, naturally they wanted > us to book direct…we called our TA…he got us the same price and he got > the commission. > I am currently getting boatloads of promo stuff from HAL….email, > direct-mail, etc…all with "member" specials.  But when I look online for > HAL pricing, it is the same for anyone as it is for "members".  Simply > amazing.

It would appear that the Condo time share marketing people are wiggling their way into the cruise ship domain with this shift to points strategy. Our Coronado Beach Resort is still old fashioned week by week exchanges but we get a lot of invitations to free this or free that in order to hear the new point system. We listened, we enjoyed their hospitality, we declined. But were ’suckered’ into Carnival because of the superb time we had on that trip which led us to believe in the quality and honesty of their words. I really hope they wake up to this ‘mistake’ they are making. They lost a loyal customer family because of their little lie. I will now shop till I drop for the best deal and consider Carnival only on price and availability alone. Buyer beware! Wayne

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > My TA is having troubles getting to cash my points with Carnival even though > it’s a Carnival venture. It’s taking her three and a half days to get people > at Carnival to work with her. And I asked, when buying the club membership, > if my TA would get her commission. They said absolutely yes. My TA said no, > that they are hedging on the point thing saying they can’t issue points to > TAs. > My TA said this is most likely due to the novelty of the cruise club product > which she said has only been launched in a few ships and not fully debugged. > Bottom line, I am not getting a penny’s extra value for putting over $3, 300 > cash into Carnival’s pocket for use over the next five months and 11 months > when I am trying… repeat, trying…. to get bookings. > In chatting with Blanca my TA, we have decided that from now on we will look > for deals to places my wife and I want to go and be done with it. My > recommendation to anybody thinking of doing club memberships is to think > twice and research other posters who may have something to ad as this string > moves along with more input. The fact that the salespeople said we could use > our points on any of the major cruise ships really ticks me off. They don’t.

Wayne, your TA really needs to get a set of balls and go to bat for you with Carnival. For all practical purposes, you have been criminally defrauded. Do *not* pay here anything. She can get her commission, like the rest of us TA’s *from* *the* *cruisline* if she is due them.  MOF, her taking monies from you may be unethical and possibly illegal. It is her job to get this straightened out if she expects a commission. If none is legally due her, then she can either do you a favor or you will need to jump on Carnival’s back yourself. They have several 800 numbers so it will cost you time but nothing else. Also, let Carnival know you are posting this to RTC. They may not like the sordid publicity. Don’t roll over on this. I don’t care if the system is buggy, that’s their problem to solve. Got get your money back. If they can’t do what they are supposed to, and if they have lied to you, why do business with them at all? Btw, if you paid by credit card, get them involved on a dispute of the charge.

Response:

snip— > Got get your money back. If they can’t do what they are supposed to, and if > they have lied to you, why do business with them at all? > Btw, if you paid by credit card, get them involved on a dispute of the > charge.

—snip— Thank you. You are right. The problem is that I bought points and not a cruise nor anything tangible. And the 27 pages of fine print contract is all in their favor. Not even a Harvard lawyer would dare tackle the issue. The only reason I brought this up in the first place is to caution others who may be considering points and club memberships. Read the fine print! I’ll take my two cruises and chalk this up to learning curve and hope they learn from it as well. Can’t knock a great company for the errors of an obviously outside consulting firm who is probably taking Carnival to the cleaners. Wayne

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > snip— > Got get your money back. If they can’t do what they are supposed to, and > if > they have lied to you, why do business with them at all? > Btw, if you paid by credit card, get them involved on a dispute of the > charge. > —snip— > Thank you. You are right. The problem is that I bought points and not a > cruise nor anything tangible. And the 27 pages of fine print contract is > all > in their favor. Not even a Harvard lawyer would dare tackle the issue. > The only reason I brought this up in the first place is to caution others > who may be considering points and club memberships. Read the fine print! > I’ll take my two cruises and chalk this up to learning curve and hope they > learn from it as well. Can’t knock a great company for the errors of an > obviously outside consulting firm who is probably taking Carnival to the > cleaners. > Wayne

Complain, Complain. You are just like the other jew. Fredstien

Response:

No Fred, I’m not complaining. I’m sharing an experience which is only a grain of sand under my very comfortable mattress with Carnival. Wayne

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> snip— >> Got get your money back. If they can’t do what they are supposed to, and > if >> they have lied to you, why do business with them at all? >> Btw, if you paid by credit card, get them involved on a dispute of the >> charge. > —snip— > Thank you. You are right. The problem is that I bought points and not a > cruise nor anything tangible. And the 27 pages of fine print contract is > all > in their favor. Not even a Harvard lawyer would dare tackle the issue. > The only reason I brought this up in the first place is to caution others > who may be considering points and club memberships. Read the fine print! > I’ll take my two cruises and chalk this up to learning curve and hope they > learn from it as well. Can’t knock a great company for the errors of an > obviously outside consulting firm who is probably taking Carnival to the > cleaners. > Wayne > Complain, Complain. You are just like the other jew. > Fredstien

Response:

>Complain, Complain.

Reading the whole thread, given what has happened to him in this transaction, my reaction is that Wayne is more uncomplaining than 99% of us would be. If anything he should in all rights be complaining more.

Response:

> Reading the whole thread, given what has happened to him in this transaction, > my reaction is that Wayne is more uncomplaining than 99% of us would be. If > anything he should in all rights be complaining more.

Damn straight.

Response:

Thanks!

Response:

Sadly, you truncated the original post which was "Complain, Complain. You are just like the other jew.Fredstien" There is a difference, pal. — DG in Cherry Hill, NJ

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Complain, Complain. > Reading the whole thread, given what has happened to him in this transaction, > my reaction is that Wayne is more uncomplaining than 99% of us would be. If > anything he should in all rights be complaining more.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Many of you have read and commented on my trip report on the Carnival Spirit > a few days ago. We came back to San Diego so high in spirits that we > attended their sales presentation offering ‘fabulous deals’ on future > cruises, time shares and flights that we actually signed up, paid our dues, > and walked away with a shopping bag full of books, pictures, credentials and > the like. > We though we had bought three cruises. > Guess what. > We get two… at no discount from what we paid for the first one and no > guaranties that we will get an upgrade nor even the cabin we request now, > six months and a year ahead of time. > Do I feel like I’ve been had? > I should be. But it was kind of expected. At least it’s not a major loss nor > gain and the trip was excellent and we are looking forward to the next > two…. even if at full price. > I post this note just so that if you are listening to their sales pitches on > this point thing instead of cash or value, be wary…. ask the right > questions. And there is no way out of these things with 27 pages of > contracts you have to sign, all in their favor. > My travel agent just told me this as she is trying to make the reservations. > I asked point blank if these club things were worth anything. She said there > may be better deals. > Also, Carnival salespeople said the deal was good for any cruise ship. We > tried to get one that went somewhere else and no go. The club memberships > are for the company you sign with. Be careful! > I thought we had signed for three cruises at the price we paid and > conditions told to us by the salespeople. So now I am going to ask my travel > agent to look for deals for a year and a half from now and I don’t care if > it’s not on Carnival. They had a chance to keep us as loyal customers for > life and they blew it with this little fib of theirs. > Are they all like this? > Wayne > www.pueblaprotocol.com

Wayne, Guess you know now, but….."The value of something is in inverse proportion to the effort expended to sell it."  As the Southern comedian Dave Gardner would have said: "Them’s wise sayin’s!" Stranger

Response:

I would check with the Attorney Generals office of the State in which your Club "documents" are filed. There should be a number of days after you signed the documents where you retain a right of recision. This all sounds like a major rip, but then again that’s why I never travel on Carnival. I tried them twice and swore I’d NEVER give them a third opportunity.

Response:

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> helo ftfnf > according ftfnf > discussion ftfnf > vorhanden ftfnf > apostate ftfnf > identity ftfnf > healthy ftfnf > oulu ftfnf > babs ftfnf > popovic ftfnf > wayback ftfnf > twice ftfnf > ozund ftfnf > puristic ftfnf > tforrester ftfnf > magazine ftfnf > limited ftfnf > tutorial ftfnf > mystical ftfnf > sauces ftfnf > mmtel ftfnf > advertisements ftfnf > leshner ftfnf > vienello ftfnf > card ftfnf > height ftfnf > header ftfnf > norwalk ftfnf > proidet ftfnf > seens ftfnf > theregister ftfnf > chibi ftfnf > settle ftfnf > board ftfnf > mscsr ftfnf > absolutely ftfnf > reevaluate ftfnf > weren ftfnf > checkmate ftfnf > sunnyluv ftfnf > sack ftfnf > hans ftfnf > recruited ftfnf > bandages ftfnf > letters ftfnf > weight ftfnf > shouldnt ftfnf > lies ftfnf > allow ftfnf > tied ftfnf > adverts ftfnf > images ftfnf > infomaxpro ftfnf > notes ftfnf > present ftfnf > dunlapb ftfnf > korntal ftfnf > page ftfnf > mailcity ftfnf > acknowledge ftfnf > ptjil ftfnf > surgam ftfnf > anonymous 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Response:

alt.books.george-orwell,sci.skeptic,alt.aviation.fun,alt.artcom,alt.busines s.consulting

Response:

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> helo ftfnf > according ftfnf > discussion ftfnf > vorhanden ftfnf > apostate ftfnf > identity ftfnf > healthy ftfnf > oulu ftfnf > babs ftfnf > popovic ftfnf > wayback ftfnf > twice ftfnf > ozund ftfnf > puristic ftfnf > tforrester ftfnf > magazine ftfnf > limited ftfnf > tutorial ftfnf > mystical ftfnf > sauces ftfnf > mmtel ftfnf > advertisements ftfnf > leshner ftfnf > vienello ftfnf > card ftfnf > height ftfnf > header ftfnf > norwalk ftfnf > proidet ftfnf > seens ftfnf > theregister ftfnf > chibi ftfnf > settle ftfnf > board ftfnf > mscsr ftfnf > absolutely ftfnf > reevaluate ftfnf > weren ftfnf > checkmate ftfnf > sunnyluv ftfnf > sack ftfnf > hans ftfnf > recruited ftfnf > bandages ftfnf > letters ftfnf > weight ftfnf > shouldnt ftfnf > lies ftfnf > allow ftfnf > tied ftfnf > adverts ftfnf > images ftfnf > infomaxpro ftfnf > notes ftfnf > present ftfnf > dunlapb ftfnf > korntal ftfnf > page ftfnf > mailcity ftfnf > acknowledge ftfnf > ptjil ftfnf > surgam ftfnf > anonymous 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fool ftfnf > anguish ftfnf > recognition ftfnf > ncweb ftfnf > granzow ftfnf > denial ftfnf > increase ftfnf > particular ftfnf > digital ftfnf > learning ftfnf > update ftfnf > receive ftfnf > said ftfnf > operapl ftfnf > plexobject ftfnf > siiks ftfnf > storyid ftfnf > caution ftfnf > pals ftfnf > hozoji ftfnf > prime ftfnf > rshook ftfnf > philippines ftfnf > project ftfnf > suggestion ftfnf > symetric ftfnf > text ftfnf > productive ftfnf > claims ftfnf > lebanon ftfnf > mailboxes ftfnf > added ftfnf > where ftfnf > ryochin ftfnf > reasons ftfnf > dusts ftfnf > kerstin ftfnf > questions ftfnf > unaware ftfnf > unpublished ftfnf > cost ftfnf > living ftfnf > aignes ftfnf > informations ftfnf > cliffs ftfnf > crew ftfnf > watchthatpage ftfnf > script ftfnf > youare ftfnf > stalk ftfnf > simpler ftfnf > ebenezer ftfnf > peixiaomin ftfnf > ability ftfnf > secondary ftfnf > remember ftfnf > sends ftfnf > macos ftfnf > bgsu ftfnf > eliminate ftfnf > item ftfnf > vacation ftfnf > tracker 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Response:

alt.books.george-orwell,sci.skeptic,alt.aviation.fun,alt.artcom,alt.busines s.consulting

Response:

> I have no contracts with companies in India now.

I wasn’t wondering that.  What I was wondering was… > The companies in India want me to find clients/contracts > for them in North America.

That’s what I wanted to know.  This makes it all the easier to advise.  I’ve given this advice countless times here and in person to those wanting to do a similar thing.  That advice being… Go around to all your local computer consulting firms and offer to help them with their work overload.  If the computer consulting firms are any good, they’ll have more work than they can tackle.  However, do NOT come in and act as a jack-of-all-trades.  Jacks-of-all-trades are masters of none. Pitch your specialty(ies).  In your case, these specialties might be rather numerous, but still list them.  Single out which India company will do which specialty and stress that they’re specialists (a.k.a. experts) and not jacks.  Third world computer programming companies have a well-deserved bad reputation and you need to show your clients are not only different but the best at their specialties.  Give examples of their work that proves this. The more specialized your clients are perceived, the better chances you’ll get work for them. Now normally I’d recommend that you not be invisible to the clients, but, in your case, I’d recommend it.  Let the North American firms take the credit if they want to.  Accept the man-behind-the-throne position.  I would advise you to just get sub-contracts for your clients and not try to establish a corporate image here in North America to potential end-use clients. Instead, try to establish a helper reputation with computer consulting firms. As for how to pitch your clients to them, I suggest simply asking for a meeting.  Tell them that you represent these India companies that want to specialize in helping North American firms with their work overloads.  Come in and give a quick presentation what your clients can do for that firm. Explain how you’d work with them.  How quickly your work turnaround is. Your cheap hourly rates.  Satisfaction guaranteed.  Etc.  Etc.  Etc. Your goal for this initial meeting is to find out when you can regularly check in with them to see if they’ve got work overload you could help them with.  You also want to give them a one-page sheet, index cards, and business cards with your contact information on them so they can call you day or night to get your clients’ help. One or more of the computer consulting firms you initially approach as outlined above might have work for you right away.  Expect it to be something very small, quick, and unimportant.  They’re testing you out. They want to see the quality and speed of your work.  Their reputation and the reputation of their firm will be affected by the work you do for them. One screw-up and they never send you work again.  Always remember that. As for who to approach, do it geographically.  Approach the firms that are closest and work your way out from there.  You’ll need to drive to them occasionally so you don’t want them across the nation … yet.  Also, there is a real limit to how much work your clients can do.  Your clients might not know what that is yet.  It might be quite impressive but the limit still exists.  By gradually growing your firm by way of in-person pitches as outlined above, you’ll eventually find out when to stop trying to approach more computer consulting firms for your clients … or at least until your clients can hire more programmers to take on more work.  Naturally, all the computer consulting firms that will be giving you their overload will want prompt service.  However, don’t over-extend your clients.  Be PAINFULLY HONEST with the computer consulting firms when they call about when your clients can get the work the firms are trying to get them to help with done. Do NOT be optimistic on your time estimate.  Be reasonable.  Realize that your clients MUST meet all deadlines YOU (that you, Chandra Rajaraman) give …. even if it means your clients have to work weekends, vacations, birthdays, and/or without sleep.  If your clients miss a deadline, don’t expect work from that firm ever again.  Also, don’t ask for extensions.  The firms very likely picked you over others because you said you could work within their timeframe.  Asking for extensions messes with them and they’ll be less likely to toss work your way in the future.  Also, don’t overextend your clients.  Some of the firms will beg and plead with you to help them get their work done "as soon as is humanly possible" and/or take it on when your clients’ workload is already full.  Do NOT take on such work!  You’ll burn your clients out, miss the deadlines, and end up emotionally and financially worse for it … as well as get all the blame from all the other firms you’ve received sub-contracts from … including the one that begged you to take them on.  You’ve got to have the iron will to refuse work. Simply be honest with them.  Turn them down politely but turn them down. Every season have a barbeque and invite all of the employees of all the firms you’re trying to get sub-contracts from … whether or not they’ve given you work.  You want to get on friendly terms with them and this is a great way to do that.  Look successful.  The more successful you look, the more they’ll want to toss business to you.  Upgrade your home when you can. Hire an interior decorator.  Evaluate everything in your house to be sure it speaks of quality.  Also, invest into yourself and your spouse/girlfriend/boyfriend.  Go to the gym, hire a personal trainer for both of you, and get fit.  It doesn’t matter your age.  If you’ve got a mole on your face, go to a plastic surgeon and get it removed.  Additionally, find out at these parties what leisure-time activities they like to do.  Do they like to play poker?  A monthly poker game is something you could host. Golf?  Bowling?  You get the idea.  You need to keep your name fresh in their minds and socializing with them is the best way to do this. Also, go where the computer consulting firms go.  Is there a trade show, professional convention, or the like going to happen?  Rent a booth there and make yourself known.  And don’t hide behind that booth.  Get out and socialize.  Hire some knowledgeable technical people (ideally ones who are attractive women) to stand behind the booth for you to field questions. You, yourself, try to give a speech/lecture on an appropriate topic (like how to use third world computer consulting firms to help handle work overload) and, just as importantly, go out into the convention and mingle. You’ll quickly develop hunter instincts about who are the people you need to get to know.  Seek them out like a cruise missile.  If you’re trapped behind a booth on the trade floor, you’ll not be able to do this.  Also, host a hospitality room (always-fresh buffet line, a softly-playing string quartet, lots of comfortable plush chairs in conversational arrangements, etc.) for the computer consulting firms you currently have a business relationship with.  Make it visible to everyone else attending that convention.  Right off the main trade floor with a big sign over its doorway if possible.  The room says you treat your clients (in this case, the computer consulting firms you want sub-contracts from) right.  Mail out passes to the hospitality room to the employees of the computer consulting firms you presently do business with.  If you make a new contact at the convention, carry with you passes that you can hand out to them to so they can partake of your hospitality room.  If there’s a dance, see if you can sponsor it. If they don’t have a dance, offer to host one.  If you sponsor/host the dance, offer a free wet bar, hire an 80’s rock band (Devo would be ideal), and hire lots of attractive women to show up and dance with the guys there. Just call up local escort services and hire a good number of them.  You want the women to be very social.  And by "very social" I mean you want them to ask the guys to dance and not wait for the guys to ask them.  Think conga line.  If the women are asked why they’re there, simply tell them to say that they working your booth and its shut down for the dance.  Oh, and be sure to shut down your booth for the dance.  ;-) Lastly, you will hopefully begin to establish really good relations with some of these computer consulting firms.  Cement it with giving their CEO and possibly VPs all-expenses-paid first-class vacations to India to meet your clients.  Toss in some sight-seeing for them, offer to fly over their entire family (if you’d like to really impressive them, fly them there in a private jet), and pitch it as a nice way for them to get to know you better and have a vacation at the same time.  Don’t travel with them, but meet them at the airport when they arrive.  Do the introductions the next day, give them a tour of your clients’ facilities, and then release them to sight-seeing.  Once they start sight-seeing, leave them alone but be sure to give them contact information so they can get in touch with you if anything goes wrong or they have a problem or questions of any sort.  A local cell phone should do just fine. > I would be paid a share of these contracts for my services.

See if they’re willing to cover the costs I’ve identified above.  They should as it is to help promote their businesses.  If they say you’re to cover those expenses, I’d recommend caution on starting a relationship with them.  They should pay your commission plus all business expenses. > MY background is not in sales but in software development > and testing.

That’s fine.  You can speak computer talk which will help your pitches. > But I feel that I can learn sales/marketing techniques soon > enough for this new job.  I guess what I am asking you is > to provide me more information about these > sales/marketing techniques.

Sales isn’t some dark art.  Sales

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Response:

I am in Toronto, Canada.  I have experience in development and testing in the software industry in  USA and Canada.  I am now considering finding North Ameircan clients for companies based in  India. I would be paid some commissions and a share of the revenue. The  outsourcing market seems to be ripe currently for this type of work so I  want to cash in on it..  PLease share some thoughts with me on my approach towards this  project/job.  I have done some technology sales but not much. Just a part time deal some  years ago.  I am thinking of developing a sales proposition for these companies in  India.  Finding contact information for decision makers at North American  comnpanies  and contacting them by email and phone and maybe in person also to tell  them  about what these companies in India can do for them and at what cost.  I plan to get this contact information from Hoover’s Online, Dun and  Bradstreet,  etc.  I will also have a website that has a lot of information about what these  Indian companies do, how they do it and at what cost..  Is there any value in advertsing my website on the internet..by putting  out advertisements in google, etc. ?  I plan to focus on the clients in Canada for now starting with Toronto,  but I may expand my reach to USA East Coast..  PLease share your thoughts and ideas with me. Thank you. CHandra Rajaraman

Response:

Have a look at www.elance.com – look at the projects that are put out to tender and it should give you some ideas about the type of businesses to target – work backwards from there. Jimbo www.masterytv.biz/jess

Response:

>  I am in Toronto, Canada. >  I have experience in development and testing in the software >  industry in USA and Canada. >  I am now considering finding North Ameircan clients for >  companies based in India. I would be paid some commissions >  and a share of the revenue. The outsourcing market seems to >  be ripe currently for this type of work so I want to cash in on it..

I’m not quite clear on an important point.  Do you currently have any such contracts with companies in India? Once you answer that question, then we can begin. Scott Jensen — Peer-to-peer networking (a.k.a. file-sharing) is entertainment’s future. If you’d like to know why, read the white paper at the link below. http://www.nonesuch.org/p2prevolution.pdf

Response:

I have no contracts with companies in India now. The companies in India want me to find clients/contracts for them in North America. I would be paid a share of these contracts for my services. MY background is not in sales but in software development and testing. But I feel that I can learn sales/marketing techniques soon enough for this new job. I guess what I am asking you is to provide me more information about these sales/marketing techniques. Hope this helps. Chandra – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->  I am in Toronto, Canada. >  I have experience in development and testing in the software >  industry in USA and Canada. >  I am now considering finding North Ameircan clients for >  companies based in India. I would be paid some commissions >  and a share of the revenue. The outsourcing market seems to >  be ripe currently for this type of work so I want to cash in on it.. > I’m not quite clear on an important point.  Do you currently have any such > contracts with companies in India? > Once you answer that question, then we can begin. > Scott Jensen

Response:

I am in Toronto, Canada.

Response:

Chandra:  I think you need to tell us more. Harriet http://paperandimages.home.att.net

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I am in Toronto, Canada.

Response:

> Chandra:  I think you need to tell us more. > Harriet > http://paperandimages.home.att.net

Harriet, there is a clickable image right in the middle of your home page that opens up a bigger image. When I click that, an add pops up for somebody else’s business. Is that your doing or is that done at the hands of AT&T? It seems to me like the kind of thing you’d want to avoid. — Mike

Response:

> I have no contracts with companies in India now.

I wasn’t wondering that.  What I was wondering was… > The companies in India want me to find clients/contracts > for them in North America.

That’s what I wanted to know.  This makes it all the easier to advise.  I’ve given this advice countless times here and in person to those wanting to do a similar thing.  That advice being… Go around to all your local computer consulting firms and offer to help them with their work overload.  If the computer consulting firms are any good, they’ll have more work than they can tackle.  However, do NOT come in and act as a jack-of-all-trades.  Jacks-of-all-trades are masters of none. Pitch your specialty(ies).  In your case, these specialties might be rather numerous, but still list them.  Single out which India company will do which specialty and stress that they’re specialists (a.k.a. experts) and not jacks.  Third world computer programming companies have a well-deserved bad reputation and you need to show your clients are not only different but the best at their specialties.  Give examples of their work that proves this. The more specialized your clients are perceived, the better chances you’ll get work for them. Now normally I’d recommend that you not be invisible to the clients, but, in your case, I’d recommend it.  Let the North American firms take the credit if they want to.  Accept the man-behind-the-throne position.  I would advise you to just get sub-contracts for your clients and not try to establish a corporate image here in North America to potential end-use clients. Instead, try to establish a helper reputation with computer consulting firms. As for how to pitch your clients to them, I suggest simply asking for a meeting.  Tell them that you represent these India companies that want to specialize in helping North American firms with their work overloads.  Come in and give a quick presentation what your clients can do for that firm. Explain how you’d work with them.  How quickly your work turnaround is. Your cheap hourly rates.  Satisfaction guaranteed.  Etc.  Etc.  Etc. Your goal for this initial meeting is to find out when you can regularly check in with them to see if they’ve got work overload you could help them with.  You also want to give them a one-page sheet, index cards, and business cards with your contact information on them so they can call you day or night to get your clients’ help. One or more of the computer consulting firms you initially approach as outlined above might have work for you right away.  Expect it to be something very small, quick, and unimportant.  They’re testing you out. They want to see the quality and speed of your work.  Their reputation and the reputation of their firm will be affected by the work you do for them. One screw-up and they never send you work again.  Always remember that. As for who to approach, do it geographically.  Approach the firms that are closest and work your way out from there.  You’ll need to drive to them occasionally so you don’t want them across the nation … yet.  Also, there is a real limit to how much work your clients can do.  Your clients might not know what that is yet.  It might be quite impressive but the limit still exists.  By gradually growing your firm by way of in-person pitches as outlined above, you’ll eventually find out when to stop trying to approach more computer consulting firms for your clients … or at least until your clients can hire more programmers to take on more work.  Naturally, all the computer consulting firms that will be giving you their overload will want prompt service.  However, don’t over-extend your clients.  Be PAINFULLY HONEST with the computer consulting firms when they call about when your clients can get the work the firms are trying to get them to help with done. Do NOT be optimistic on your time estimate.  Be reasonable.  Realize that your clients MUST meet all deadlines YOU (that you, Chandra Rajaraman) give …. even if it means your clients have to work weekends, vacations, birthdays, and/or without sleep.  If your clients miss a deadline, don’t expect work from that firm ever again.  Also, don’t ask for extensions.  The firms very likely picked you over others because you said you could work within their timeframe.  Asking for extensions messes with them and they’ll be less likely to toss work your way in the future.  Also, don’t overextend your clients.  Some of the firms will beg and plead with you to help them get their work done "as soon as is humanly possible" and/or take it on when your clients’ workload is already full.  Do NOT take on such work!  You’ll burn your clients out, miss the deadlines, and end up emotionally and financially worse for it … as well as get all the blame from all the other firms you’ve received sub-contracts from … including the one that begged you to take them on.  You’ve got to have the iron will to refuse work. Simply be honest with them.  Turn them down politely but turn them down. Every season have a barbeque and invite all of the employees of all the firms you’re trying to get sub-contracts from … whether or not they’ve given you work.  You want to get on friendly terms with them and this is a great way to do that.  Look successful.  The more successful you look, the more they’ll want to toss business to you.  Upgrade your home when you can. Hire an interior decorator.  Evaluate everything in your house to be sure it speaks of quality.  Also, invest into yourself and your spouse/girlfriend/boyfriend.  Go to the gym, hire a personal trainer for both of you, and get fit.  It doesn’t matter your age.  If you’ve got a mole on your face, go to a plastic surgeon and get it removed.  Additionally, find out at these parties what leisure-time activities they like to do.  Do they like to play poker?  A monthly poker game is something you could host. Golf?  Bowling?  You get the idea.  You need to keep your name fresh in their minds and socializing with them is the best way to do this. Also, go where the computer consulting firms go.  Is there a trade show, professional convention, or the like going to happen?  Rent a booth there and make yourself known.  And don’t hide behind that booth.  Get out and socialize.  Hire some knowledgeable technical people (ideally ones who are attractive women) to stand behind the booth for you to field questions. You, yourself, try to give a speech/lecture on an appropriate topic (like how to use third world computer consulting firms to help handle work overload) and, just as importantly, go out into the convention and mingle. You’ll quickly develop hunter instincts about who are the people you need to get to know.  Seek them out like a cruise missile.  If you’re trapped behind a booth on the trade floor, you’ll not be able to do this.  Also, host a hospitality room (always-fresh buffet line, a softly-playing string quartet, lots of comfortable plush chairs in conversational arrangements, etc.) for the computer consulting firms you currently have a business relationship with.  Make it visible to everyone else attending that convention.  Right off the main trade floor with a big sign over its doorway if possible.  The room says you treat your clients (in this case, the computer consulting firms you want sub-contracts from) right.  Mail out passes to the hospitality room to the employees of the computer consulting firms you presently do business with.  If you make a new contact at the convention, carry with you passes that you can hand out to them to so they can partake of your hospitality room.  If there’s a dance, see if you can sponsor it. If they don’t have a dance, offer to host one.  If you sponsor/host the dance, offer a free wet bar, hire an 80’s rock band (Devo would be ideal), and hire lots of attractive women to show up and dance with the guys there. Just call up local escort services and hire a good number of them.  You want the women to be very social.  And by "very social" I mean you want them to ask the guys to dance and not wait for the guys to ask them.  Think conga line.  If the women are asked why they’re there, simply tell them to say that they working your booth and its shut down for the dance.  Oh, and be sure to shut down your booth for the dance.  ;-) Lastly, you will hopefully begin to establish really good relations with some of these computer consulting firms.  Cement it with giving their CEO and possibly VPs all-expenses-paid first-class vacations to India to meet your clients.  Toss in some sight-seeing for them, offer to fly over their entire family (if you’d like to really impressive them, fly them there in a private jet), and pitch it as a nice way for them to get to know you better and have a vacation at the same time.  Don’t travel with them, but meet them at the airport when they arrive.  Do the introductions the next day, give them a tour of your clients’ facilities, and then release them to sight-seeing.  Once they start sight-seeing, leave them alone but be sure to give them contact information so they can get in touch with you if anything goes wrong or they have a problem or questions of any sort.  A local cell phone should do just fine. > I would be paid a share of these contracts for my services.

See if they’re willing to cover the costs I’ve identified above.  They should as it is to help promote their businesses.  If they say you’re to cover those expenses, I’d recommend caution on starting a relationship with them.  They should pay your commission plus all business expenses. > MY background is not in sales but in software development > and testing.

That’s fine.  You can speak computer talk which will help your pitches. > But I feel that I can learn sales/marketing techniques soon > enough for this new job.  I guess what I am asking you is > to provide me more information about these > sales/marketing techniques.

Sales isn’t some dark art.  Sales

… read more »

Response:

I am in Toronto, Canada.  I have experience in development and testing in the software industry in  USA and Canada.  I am now considering finding North Ameircan clients for companies based in  India. I would be paid some commissions and a share of the revenue. The  outsourcing market seems to be ripe currently for this type of work so I  want to cash in on it..  PLease share some thoughts with me on my approach towards this  project/job.  I have done some technology sales but not much. Just a part time deal some  years ago.  I am thinking of developing a sales proposition for these companies in  India.  Finding contact information for decision makers at North American  comnpanies  and contacting them by email and phone and maybe in person also to tell  them  about what these companies in India can do for them and at what cost.  I plan to get this contact information from Hoover’s Online, Dun and  Bradstreet,  etc.  I will also have a website that has a lot of information about what these  Indian companies do, how they do it and at what cost..  Is there any value in advertsing my website on the internet..by putting  out advertisements in google, etc. ?  I plan to focus on the clients in Canada for now starting with Toronto,  but I may expand my reach to USA East Coast..  PLease share your thoughts and ideas with me. Thank you. CHandra Rajaraman

Response:

Have a look at www.elance.com – look at the projects that are put out to tender and it should give you some ideas about the type of businesses to target – work backwards from there. Jimbo www.masterytv.biz/jess

Response:

>  I am in Toronto, Canada. >  I have experience in development and testing in the software >  industry in USA and Canada. >  I am now considering finding North Ameircan clients for >  companies based in India. I would be paid some commissions >  and a share of the revenue. The outsourcing market seems to >  be ripe currently for this type of work so I want to cash in on it..

I’m not quite clear on an important point.  Do you currently have any such contracts with companies in India? Once you answer that question, then we can begin. Scott Jensen — Peer-to-peer networking (a.k.a. file-sharing) is entertainment’s future. If you’d like to know why, read the white paper at the link below. http://www.nonesuch.org/p2prevolution.pdf

Response:

I have no contracts with companies in India now. The companies in India want me to find clients/contracts for them in North America. I would be paid a share of these contracts for my services. MY background is not in sales but in software development and testing. But I feel that I can learn sales/marketing techniques soon enough for this new job. I guess what I am asking you is to provide me more information about these sales/marketing techniques. Hope this helps. Chandra – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->  I am in Toronto, Canada. >  I have experience in development and testing in the software >  industry in USA and Canada. >  I am now considering finding North Ameircan clients for >  companies based in India. I would be paid some commissions >  and a share of the revenue. The outsourcing market seems to >  be ripe currently for this type of work so I want to cash in on it.. > I’m not quite clear on an important point.  Do you currently have any such > contracts with companies in India? > Once you answer that question, then we can begin. > Scott Jensen

Response:

I am in Toronto, Canada.

Response:

Chandra:  I think you need to tell us more. Harriet http://paperandimages.home.att.net

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I am in Toronto, Canada.

Response:

> Chandra:  I think you need to tell us more. > Harriet > http://paperandimages.home.att.net

Harriet, there is a clickable image right in the middle of your home page that opens up a bigger image. When I click that, an add pops up for somebody else’s business. Is that your doing or is that done at the hands of AT&T? It seems to me like the kind of thing you’d want to avoid. — Mike

Response:

Paul Krugman is a mild-mannered university economist. He is also a New York Times columnist and President Bush’s most scathing critic. Hence the death threats. He talks to Oliver Burkeman Friday September 19, 2003 The Guardian The letters that Paul Krugman receives these days have to be picked up with tongs, and his employer pays someone to delete the death threats from his email inbox. This isn’t something that can be said of most academics, and emphatically not of economic theorists, but Krugman isn’t a typical don. Intercepting him in London on his way back home to New Jersey after a holiday in France, I half expect to find a couple of burly minders keeping a close eye on him, although they would probably have to be minders with a sound grasp of Keynesian macroeconomics. "I can’t say I never get rattled," the gnomish, bearded 50-year-old Princeton University professor says a little hesitantly, looking every inch the ivory-tower thinker he might once have expected to be. "When it gets personal, I do get rattled." What drives his critics hysterical is not, it ought to be clarified, his PhD thesis on flexible exchange rates, or his well-regarded textbook on the principles of economics, co-written with his wife, the economist Robin Wells; nor the fact that he is probably the world authority on currency crises. For the past five years, Krugman – a lifelong academic with the exception of a brief stint as an economics staffer under Reagan – has been moonlighting as a columnist on the New York Times op ed page, a position so influential in the US that it has no real British parallel. And though that paper’s editors seem to have believed that they were hiring him to ponder abstruse matters of economic policy, it didn’t work out that way. Accustomed to the vigorous ivy league tradition of calling a stupid argument a stupid argument (and isolated, at home in New Jersey, from the Washington dinner-party circuit frequented by so many other political columnists) he has become pretty much the only voice in the mainstream US media to openly and repeatedly accuse George Bush of lying to the American people: first to sell a calamitous tax cut, and then to sell a war. "It’s an accident," Krugman concedes, addressing the question of how it came to be that the Bush administration’s most persuasively scathing domestic critic isn’t a loudmouthed lefty radical in the manner of Michael Moore, but a mild-mannered, not-very-leftwing, university economist, tipped among colleagues as a future Nobel prizewinner. "The Times hired me because it was the height of the internet bubble; they thought business was what would be really interesting. Turned out the world was different from what we imagined… for the past two-and-a-half years, I’ve watched what began as dismay and disbelief gradually turn into foreboding. Every time you think, well, yes, but they wouldn’t do that – well, then they do." Even more confusing for those who like their politics to consist of nicely pigeonholed leftwingers criticising rightwingers, and vice versa, will be the incendiary essay that introduces Krugman’s new collection of columns, The Great Unravelling, published in the UK next week. In it, Krugman describes how, just as he was about to send his manuscript to the publishers, he chanced upon a passage in an old history book from the 1950s, about 19th-century diplomacy, that seemed to pinpoint, with eerie accuracy, what is happening in the US now. Eerie, but also perhaps a little embarrassing, really, given the identity of the author. Because it’s Henry Kissinger. "The first three pages of Kissinger’s book sent chills down my spine," Krugman writes of A World Restored, the 1957 tome by the man who would later become the unacceptable face of cynical realpolitik. Kissinger, using Napoleon as a case study – but also, Krugman believes, implicitly addressing the rise of fascism in the 1930s – describes what happens when a stable political system is confronted with a "revolutionary power": a radical group that rejects the legitimacy of the system itself. This, Krugman believes, is precisely the situation in the US today (though he is at pains to point out that he isn’t comparing Bush to Hitler in moral terms). The "revolutionary power", in Kissinger’s theory, rejects fundamental elements of the system it seeks to control, arguing that they are wrong in principle. For the Bush administration, according to Krugman, that includes social security; the idea of pursuing foreign policy through international institutions; and perhaps even the basic notion that political legitimacy comes from democratic elections – as opposed to, say, from God. But worse still, Kissinger continued, nobody can quite bring themselves to believe that the revolutionary power really means to do what it claims. "Lulled by a period of stability which had seemed permanent," he wrote, "they find it nearly impossible to take at face value the assertion of the revolutionary power that it means to smash the existing framework." Exactly, says Krugman, who recallss the response to his column about Tom DeLay, the anti-evolutionist Republican leader of the House of Representatives, who claimed, bafflingly, that "nothing is more important in the face of a war than cutting taxes". "My liberal friends said, ‘I’m not interested in what some crazy guy in Congress has to say’," Krugman recalls. "But this is not some crazy guy! This guy runs Congress! There’s this fundamental unwillingness to acknowledge the radicalism of the threat we’re facing." But those who point out what is happening, Kissinger had already noted long ago, "are considered alarmists; those who counsel adaptation to circumstance are considered balanced and sane." ("Those who take the hard-line rightists now in power at their word are usually accused of being ’shrill’, of going over the top," Krugman writes, and he has become well used to such accusations.) Which is how, as Krugman sees it, the Bush administration managed to sell tax cuts as a benefit to the poor when the result will really be to benefit the rich, and why they managed to rally support for war in Iraq with arguments for which they didn’t have the evidence. Journalists "find it very hard to deal with blatantly false arguments," he argues. "By inclination and training, they always try to see two sides to an issue, and find it hard even to conceive that a major political figure is simply lying." Krugman can expect many more accusations of shrillness now that The Great Unravelling is on the bookshelves in the US. Already, he says, Alan Greenspan, the chairman of the federal reserve, is refusing to talk to him – "because I accused him of being essentially an apologist for Bush". And there will be plenty of invective, presumably, from the conservative commentator Andrew Sullivan, who hauled Krugman over the coals for accepting a $50,000 (

Paul Krugman is a mild-mannered university economist. He is also a New York Times columnist and President Bush’s most scathing critic. Hence the death threats. He talks to Oliver Burkeman Friday September 19, 2003 The Guardian The letters that Paul Krugman receives these days have to be picked up with tongs, and his employer pays someone to delete the death threats from his email inbox. This isn’t something that can be said of most academics, and emphatically not of economic theorists, but Krugman isn’t a typical don. Intercepting him in London on his way back home to New Jersey after a holiday in France, I half expect to find a couple of burly minders keeping a close eye on him, although they would probably have to be minders with a sound grasp of Keynesian macroeconomics. "I can’t say I never get rattled," the gnomish, bearded 50-year-old Princeton University professor says a little hesitantly, looking every inch the ivory-tower thinker he might once have expected to be. "When it gets personal, I do get rattled." What drives his critics hysterical is not, it ought to be clarified, his PhD thesis on flexible exchange rates, or his well-regarded textbook on the principles of economics, co-written with his wife, the economist Robin Wells; nor the fact that he is probably the world authority on currency crises. For the past five years, Krugman – a lifelong academic with the exception of a brief stint as an economics staffer under Reagan – has been moonlighting as a columnist on the New York Times op ed page, a position so influential in the US that it has no real British parallel. And though that paper’s editors seem to have believed that they were hiring him to ponder abstruse matters of economic policy, it didn’t work out that way. Accustomed to the vigorous ivy league tradition of calling a stupid argument a stupid argument (and isolated, at home in New Jersey, from the Washington dinner-party circuit frequented by so many other political columnists) he has become pretty much the only voice in the mainstream US media to openly and repeatedly accuse George Bush of lying to the American people: first to sell a calamitous tax cut, and then to sell a war. "It’s an accident," Krugman concedes, addressing the question of how it came to be that the Bush administration’s most persuasively scathing domestic critic isn’t a loudmouthed lefty radical in the manner of Michael Moore, but a mild-mannered, not-very-leftwing, university economist, tipped among colleagues as a future Nobel prizewinner. "The Times hired me because it was the height of the internet bubble; they thought business was what would be really interesting. Turned out the world was different from what we imagined… for the past two-and-a-half years, I’ve watched what began as dismay and disbelief gradually turn into foreboding. Every time you think, well, yes, but they wouldn’t do that – well, then they do." Even more confusing for those who like their politics to consist of nicely pigeonholed leftwingers criticising rightwingers, and vice versa, will be the incendiary essay that introduces Krugman’s new collection of columns, The Great Unravelling, published in the UK next week. In it, Krugman describes how, just as he was about to send his manuscript to the publishers, he chanced upon a passage in an old history book from the 1950s, about 19th-century diplomacy, that seemed to pinpoint, with eerie accuracy, what is happening in the US now. Eerie, but also perhaps a little embarrassing, really, given the identity of the author. Because it’s Henry Kissinger. "The first three pages of Kissinger’s book sent chills down my spine," Krugman writes of A World Restored, the 1957 tome by the man who would later become the unacceptable face of cynical realpolitik. Kissinger, using Napoleon as a case study – but also, Krugman believes, implicitly addressing the rise of fascism in the 1930s – describes what happens when a stable political system is confronted with a "revolutionary power": a radical group that rejects the legitimacy of the system itself. This, Krugman believes, is precisely the situation in the US today (though he is at pains to point out that he isn’t comparing Bush to Hitler in moral terms). The "revolutionary power", in Kissinger’s theory, rejects fundamental elements of the system it seeks to control, arguing that they are wrong in principle. For the Bush administration, according to Krugman, that includes social security; the idea of pursuing foreign policy through international institutions; and perhaps even the basic notion that political legitimacy comes from democratic elections – as opposed to, say, from God. But worse still, Kissinger continued, nobody can quite bring themselves to believe that the revolutionary power really means to do what it claims. "Lulled by a period of stability which had seemed permanent," he wrote, "they find it nearly impossible to take at face value the assertion of the revolutionary power that it means to smash the existing framework." Exactly, says Krugman, who recallss the response to his column about Tom DeLay, the anti-evolutionist Republican leader of the House of Representatives, who claimed, bafflingly, that "nothing is more important in the face of a war than cutting taxes". "My liberal friends said, ‘I’m not interested in what some crazy guy in Congress has to say’," Krugman recalls. "But this is not some crazy guy! This guy runs Congress! There’s this fundamental unwillingness to acknowledge the radicalism of the threat we’re facing." But those who point out what is happening, Kissinger had already noted long ago, "are considered alarmists; those who counsel adaptation to circumstance are considered balanced and sane." ("Those who take the hard-line rightists now in power at their word are usually accused of being ’shrill’, of going over the top," Krugman writes, and he has become well used to such accusations.) Which is how, as Krugman sees it, the Bush administration managed to sell tax cuts as a benefit to the poor when the result will really be to benefit the rich, and why they managed to rally support for war in Iraq with arguments for which they didn’t have the evidence. Journalists "find it very hard to deal with blatantly false arguments," he argues. "By inclination and training, they always try to see two sides to an issue, and find it hard even to conceive that a major political figure is simply lying." Krugman can expect many more accusations of shrillness now that The Great Unravelling is on the bookshelves in the US. Already, he says, Alan Greenspan, the chairman of the federal reserve, is refusing to talk to him – "because I accused him of being essentially an apologist for Bush". And there will be plenty of invective, presumably, from the conservative commentator Andrew Sullivan, who hauled Krugman over the coals for accepting a $50,000 (