Hello, My name is Mineh Ishida and I am currently attempting to create a computer services business.  I am thinking of incorporating with an associate as a LLC and need to conduct market research. My problem comes from the fact that I haven’t the slightest idea how to conduct research on the market for my services.  I’ve scoured the web only to find that the majority of market research information is for tangible products.  I have yet to find a good wayt to conduct research for people who need computer repair / Network consulting services in an objective fashion, since I do the work myself. If anyone has any tips or ideas please share!  Thank you all for your time. Mineh Ishida

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go to local college,find a marketing major,ask for help or step1: how many people in your service area?   2:how many businesses ? 3:how many computer service shops in your service area? 4:whats average hrly cost of repair service?   5:how long service takes?    come back with these general figures,than we can help you more : )) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Hello, > My name is Mineh Ishida and I am currently attempting to create a > computer services business.  I am thinking of incorporating with an > associate as a LLC and need to conduct market research. > My problem comes from the fact that I haven’t the slightest idea how > to conduct research on the market for my services.  I’ve scoured the > web only to find that the majority of market research information is > for tangible products.  I have yet to find a good wayt to conduct > research for people who need computer repair / Network consulting > services in an objective fashion, since I do the work myself. > If anyone has any tips or ideas please share!  Thank you all for your > time. > Mineh Ishida

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"Mineh Ishida"  wrote  I have yet to find a good wayt to conduct  research for people who need computer repair / Network consulting services in an objective fashion, since I do the work myself. Research is like everything else in business – what are you trying to accomplish? If you are trying to decide if your local area can support your business, then arlmo’s advice is good.  How big is the potential market, what are prevailing prices?  Grind those together with your resources (financial and other), expenses, and need for income, and you can approximate whether you can make the living you need/want to make.  Add in how many of those computer service organizations went out of business in the last year as well as the growth rate (or shrinkage rate) of the potential market. If you are trying to decide to whom you will market your services, you will need to get a lot closer to the potential consumers of your services.  Who’s buying the kind of service you offer?  What specifically are they buying? Try looking for a trade association in your industry.  True, they are not as prevalent in service as in manufacturing industries, but they are there, and they may have some national data that you can extrapolate to your local market. Unless you have significant financial resources (like enough money to support yourself and your business for one to three years, you might try looking for a very specific, very personal market.  Who do you (and your potential partner) know that need the kind of services you want to offer? Do you have contacts in the local business community, the local schools, local computer organizations, local government, non-profit organizations, and so on?  Will your current or past employer give you a contract to service their computers for a year?  Without a source of business, referrals, and funds, it can be very expensive and very trying process to build a business from nothing. Best of luck to you. George

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For some kinds of (small) business, it’s cheaper just to suck it and see. Good market research isn’t cheap, and there’s always a margin of error consisting of a) inherent statistical error, and b) the mapping of your business intentions onto the actual research that’s conducted. The smaller the scale of your research, the GREATER is the margin of error. The cost of failure might well be less than the cost of the market research it would take to show that the business isn’t going to work.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Hello, > My name is Mineh Ishida and I am currently attempting to create a > computer services business.  I am thinking of incorporating with an > associate as a LLC and need to conduct market research. > My problem comes from the fact that I haven’t the slightest idea how > to conduct research on the market for my services.  I’ve scoured the > web only to find that the majority of market research information is > for tangible products.  I have yet to find a good wayt to conduct > research for people who need computer repair / Network consulting > services in an objective fashion, since I do the work myself. > If anyone has any tips or ideas please share!  Thank you all for your > time. > Mineh Ishida

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>My name is Mineh Ishida and I am currently attempting to create a >computer services business.  I am thinking of incorporating with an >associate as a LLC and need to conduct market research. >My problem comes from the fact that I haven’t the slightest idea how >to conduct research on the market for my services.  I’ve scoured the >web only to find that the majority of market research information is >for tangible products.  I have yet to find a good wayt to conduct >research for people who need computer repair / Network consulting >services in an objective fashion, since I do the work myself. >If anyone has any tips or ideas please share!  Thank you all for your >time.

Dear Mineh, The difficulty you have experineced in trying to find a way to define the market for your business is quite understandible. This is because the service business you have described for  your venture does not actually supply quantifiable goods or services a true or real market, at all. Rather, you serve what are called dependent market relationships, or circumstantial market relationships. Your network consulting, for example, is a dependent market relationship to computer networks which is a dependent market relationship to the true markets of resource sharing and communications. Therefore your market can be expressed as a subset B or consulting share of subset A or network share of the resource sharing market plus subset B of subset A of the communications market. You should be able to use secondary sources to determine this where subset A is defined by the supply, promotion and distribution components of your business plan, subset B is the incidence or installed base of networks (inlcuding growth projections) in your target audience. Then you can project a share of this based upon management assumptions. Your computer repair is a circumstantial market relationship to a dependant market relationship to a subset of all of the hundreds of markets served by computers.   Therefore this market can be expressed as a probabilty or actuarial computation of the subset  or installed base of computers which you would service. You may then project share, based upon management assumptions as a factor of your pre-positioning. Note that the dyanamics of a circumstantial market relationship are very different from a dependant market relationship. Circumstantial markets are governed by chance. Therefore it is important that you develop a strategy to offset or even out the randomness, as well a captiatalize on, what are largely unpredictable events. This can be done through institutional promotion (yellow pages/directory advertising, premiums, etc.) as well as assurance tactics such as service contracts where you trade off some profitablity to enhance your revenue stream in order to maintian the capability. If you are doing this for an SBA loan, for example, this form of reporting using secondary sources, plus comparables as exhibits, will satisfy your due dilligence requirments for market research. As you can see, it is actually much less daunting and costly than if you did serve a true market and had to field significant primary research. You will still need some concept testing to validate the need, but this is more as a framework for your assumptions (ie. proof of concept) than as the basis of your reporting. More important, by doing this process, you will achive an insight on how your markets work, what drives them and disclose opportunities for success. Good luck, Sherman

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>Robin, haven’t you seen Dogman’s updated troll page?

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!! ROTFLMAO!!! I have nowe! Robin

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>>He has been >raising and training champion retreivers for 40 years. >But "close" to four decades, you bet.

The difference being that Dogman actually has something to show for all those years of training. Something Jer would nowe nothing about. >Marines, yes.  Hero, no way. >The heroes were the ones who didn’t make it back home.

To them anyone who wasn’t at home hiding under the bed was a hero. >What part about having 7 kids in 57 years amazes you, Crim? >The part about actually getting a woman pregnant? >Or the part about having sex that often?

If Crim and Howe were to pool their experiences, they’d still be a couple short. >Anyway, there’s a chance for you to make a quick $6000, Crim, all you >have to do now is PUT UP, eh?

Robin

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[...] >We actually understand a great deal about how to motivate >a retriever to hunt, and to do many other things.  If by >"burning a hunting dog to make him hunt" you are referring >to what we call "the Escalon shuffle," no, I do not use >that method and I reject it in general.                                    

You even have to take a shot at Rex Carr, eh? What’s wrong with you, Dahl? What is it exactly that you reject? Do you think Jerry Howe knows what you meant by "Escalon shuffle"? You use the *e-collar* yourself, you advocate *Koehler,* yet you still want to come off as some kind of touchy-feely PPer!     Geeeeeeez. — Dogman http://www.i1.net/~dogman For everything you’ve ever wanted to know about Jerry Howe and our other trolls and scumbags, visit Troll Central: http://www.i1.net/~dogman/trolls.html ABCNEWS – Nicholas Regush Columns http://more.abcnews.go.com/sections/living/secondopinion/secondopinio… "There’s them that don’t know, and you can’t tell ‘em."                                             Louis Armstrong

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> Nice going, Frosty. > Now, perhaps you can answer the question about the necessity for CONDITIONING the dog to the collar, in > order that it be effective for long term training purposes?

Conditioning to the collar is done so that it may be used most effectively as a training aid, without introducing fear or confusion into the process. "Long term training" as I understand it requires time and repetition.  The various actions must not only be taught, but practiced until correct behavior is habit and various unwanted behaviors have been forgotten.  When that happens, the desired behavior is pretty reliable. At the most advanced level of retrieving, daily maintenance is needed to keep the dog working at his or her best.  This does not mean the dog needs to be corrected, though.  I remember Banjo (FC Banjo XXXVI) never wore the e-collar in training, during the three years or so I knew her (she was already advanced in her training by then). > Or, do the collar manufacturers recommend the NECESSITY of conditioning the dog to the collar, just so > they can rip everyone off by selling you people a NEEDLESS DUMMY collar?

Properly conditioning a dog to the collar, on the one hand, and dummy collars, on the other, are two separate topics. Collar-conditioning is very important, IMO.  I’m not sure what that has to do with a dummy collar. > We’ve got people using incorrect methods for snake proofing and teaching the come command, and none of > it will work without the collar CONSTANTLY being on the dog, except for the couple of minutes the dog is > in the trial…

If it does not work without the collar being on the dog, it is not being done properly, IMO.  But, as I said before, my use of the collar does not make me responsible for everyone else’s use or misuse of it. > Seems like it doesn’t matter much to you, does it? We didn’t hear from you or anyone else, when I > brought the facts to light in the thread by webweave, as she gleefully described howe her dog Moon > flipped in the air, ass over bucket, when he got burned. That lady thinks her dog is snake proof. He > might be, but only if he’s wearing a shock collar…

I have no experience with snakeproofing so am not qualified to criticize the procedure.  Our approach to snakes is to run the coon dogs only after it gets cold in the fall, and train the retrievers only in areas which see frequent enough use to keep the moccasins away. > Then maybe you can address the issue of competent trainers not being competent enough to be able to > train a hunting dog to do the most natural thing in their world, hunting, without the need to brutalize > and shock them?

This is your fantasy; I don’t feel a need to address it. > There seems to be something that doesn’t fit here… If the "experts" were truly expert, they wouldn’t > be burning a hunting dog to make him hunt, would they? They’d understand howe to properly motivate and > train the dog using far more effective, faster, intelligent, humane, methods. I think you lack some > common sense and human decency, in your zeal to control and force the most natural thing in the world, > for a Retrieve dog.

We actually understand a great deal about how to motivate a retriever to hunt, and to do many other things.  If by "burning a hunting dog to make him hunt" you are referring to what we call "the Escalon shuffle," no, I do not use that method and I reject it in general. > Perhaps the "experts" you mention, including you and your husband, are not any more expert than our own > resident fraud die??? Lets face it, anyone that can write an article that details the kind of punishment > and abuse you recommend for training hunting dog, is not intelligent enough to be an expert, in anything > except torture.

Jerry, I’d love to see any of the FC retrievers you have trained. Or even a lowly MH, for that matter–bet you couldn’t do it, even if you secretly resorted to the e-collar. > If cavemen had ecollars, we wouldn’t have dogs, would we? > Have a nice day!

You, too.  And thanks for the entertainment. — Amy Frost Dahl            Retriever Training            phone: (910) 295-6710 Pinehurst, NC 28370                                             (http://www.oakhillkennel.com)

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>OTOH, if he has been at this as long as he claims, then >surely he’s quite old by now??

Robin, haven’t you seen Dogman’s updated troll page?   http://www.i1.net/~dogman/trolls.html –Matt

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Jerry wonders: >Go ahead, ask them if conditioning the collar is >not necessary.

We are all in agreement that ‘conditioning’ the collar is necessary for alot of things.  I’m telling you that just putting the collar on the dog, without turning it on, or having the dog understand what to do when it IS turned on, will do absolutely nothing.  You seem to think that the ecollar is like your stupid doggy-do-right, and everything under the sun just magically disappears when a dog is exposed to it.  In fact, you seem to think that’s the way training works in general.  That’s what makes you a bleacher screamer Jer. FRED HASSEN "SIT  MEANS SIT" Internet obedience talkshow can be found at: http://www.lovemypets.com/sitmeanssit Trainer/Owner–1999 N.A.P.D.(Open) National Champion "Obedience" 1999 N.A.P.D. (Open) National Champion "Protection" All-time high obedience score record holder for N.A.P.D. competitions Monthly articles appear in Dog Sports Magazine www.dogsports.com Monthly column appears at www.tritronics.com               (click on "Pet,Vet,Obedience"— then click to "monthly columns," then to "Fred Hassen")

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >OTOH, if he has been at this as long as he claims, then surely he’s quite old >by now??  I mean, he didn’t become a dog trainer until *after* he finished vo – >tech.  Howe else would he have known what components to put in his little black >box?? Forget the fat guy in the bleachers, scenario.  I think Jer’s some really >old, bitter guy sitting in the back room of a television "fix it" shop.  His >mommy probably loved the family dog more than she did him and that’s how he >became fixated on the canine species. >Robin

Wow!  If you think that’s funny, how about Dogman?  According to him: He has been raising prize Apaloosa horses for 40 years.  He has been raising and training champion retreivers for 40 years.  He was a war hero in the marines as a sniper for 4-6 years.  He went to the finest colleges to be a financial guru for at least 4-6 years.  He became a self-professed expert on virology and the truth about AIDS. He fathered and raised 7 children, and had a successful career as a banker.  And yet he’s only 56 years old. Is somebody fibbing to you? Is it Jerry or is it Dogman? Howe can you tell?

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Jerry puzzled asks: >Oh really?

Yes, really. > Did they consult you?

I’m in contact with them on a regular basis.  In fact, I just told them the other day that they are going to need to put about 7 extra holes in the collar straps for smaller dogs.  When you see that out shortly, you know where it came from.  Quite a few other things also, and this is an ongoing process from the ‘pro staff’ at Tri-Tronics.  Collar manufacturers manufacture collars, ecollar "pro-staff" trainers provide the training input, and bleacher screamers have their beers and yell. We all have our place.   >Or perhaps someone you know?

Now your getting it Jer.  Yes, Alice Woodyard is a trainer, and helped write the Tri-Tronics training book.  Mike Lardy and quite a few others as well. > Or perhaps some famous field dog trainer like >dogman?

Jer, you are really shaping up now——I’m proud of you.  Yes, Yes, there are quite a few field trial trainers on the ‘Pro Staff’.  You are welcome to go to Tri-Tronics website, and they actually list the Pro-Staff people and their qualifications Jer.  I figured that sooner or later you’d figure out how Tri-Tronics stays the top ecollar manufacturer.  Jer, now this one is really going to get you so sit down—-O.K.???  Guess who does their ‘Training’ videos???  That’s right Jer——Professional Dog trainers!!!!!!  Boy, and you were ready to say the ‘manufacturers’ weren’t ya Jer??  Although everyone’s methods differ some, I’m sure most of the people would agree with quite a bit of what ‘Dogman’ has to say, and probably pretty close to nothing of what you offer.  That’s just my opinion though Jer. >Or perhaps you heard a rumor that they were >consulting trainers?

There you go back to your 30 years ago references to ecollars Jer.  This is 1999, and has been going on for quite a few years now.  I see you are quite knowledgeable Jer. >  I don’t think the collar manufacturers consulted >anyone other that their behaviorists…

Yes Jer, I see you are just a fountain of information.  I think we’ve covered this already. FRED HASSEN "SIT  MEANS SIT" Internet obedience talkshow can be found at: http://www.lovemypets.com/sitmeanssit Trainer/Owner–1999 N.A.P.D.(Open) National Champion "Obedience" 1999 N.A.P.D. (Open) National Champion "Protection" All-time high obedience score record holder for N.A.P.D. competitions Monthly articles appear in Dog Sports Magazine www.dogsports.com Monthly column appears at www.tritronics.com               (click on "Pet,Vet,Obedience"— then click to "monthly columns," then to "Fred Hassen")

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->OTOH, if he has been at this as long as he claims, then surely he’s >quite old >by now??  I mean, he didn’t become a dog trainer until *after* he >finished vo – >tech.  Howe else would he have known what components to put in his >little black >box?? Forget the fat guy in the bleachers, scenario.  I think Jer’s >some really >old, bitter guy sitting in the back room of a television "fix it" >shop.  His >mommy probably loved the family dog more than she did him and that’s >how he >became fixated on the canine species. >Robin >Wow!  If you think that’s funny, how about Dogman?

What’s funny about it, Crim? > According to him: >He has been raising prize Apaloosa horses for 40 years.  

I’ll write you a check for $1000 (and personally deliver it to you) if you can find anywhere that I’ve ever said that. >He has been >raising and training champion retreivers for 40 years.

I’ll write you another check for $1000 if you can find anywhere that I’ve ever said that. But "close" to four decades, you bet. >He was a war >hero in the marines as a sniper for 4-6 years.  

I’ll write you another check for $1000 if you can find anywhere that I’ve ever said that. Marines, yes.  Hero, no way. The heroes were the ones who didn’t make it back home. >He went to the finest >colleges to be a financial guru for at least 4-6 years.  

I’ll write you another check for $1000 if you can find anywhere that I’ve ever said that. But UC-Berkeley is a pretty damn good school, eh? >He became a self-professed expert on virology and the truth about AIDS.

I’ll write you another check for $1000 if you can find anywhere that I’ve ever said that. >He  fathered and raised 7 children,

You finally got one right. Hip hip HOORAY! >and had a successful career as a >banker.  

I’ll write you a check for $1000 if you can ever find anywhere that I’ve ever said that. >And yet he’s only 56 years old.

57 — but close. What part about having 7 kids in 57 years amazes you, Crim? The part about actually getting a woman pregnant? Or the part about having sex that often? I can’t help it if your own wife, Suzanne Schwartz Esq., finds you too repulsive to actually have sex with, eh? Maybe it’s that shabby pony-tail of yours, eh? Anyway, there’s a chance for you to make a quick $6000, Crim, all you have to do now is PUT UP, eh? ;>) — Dogman http://www.i1.net/~dogman For everything you’ve ever wanted to know about Jerry Howe and our other trolls and scumbags, visit Troll Central: http://www.i1.net/~dogman/trolls.html ABCNEWS – Nicholas Regush Columns http://more.abcnews.go.com/sections/living/secondopinion/secondopinio… "There’s them that don’t know, and you can’t tell ‘em."                                             Louis Armstrong

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>>> 4.  Conspiracies abound.  If everyone is against you, the reason can’t >> *possibly* be that you are a sh**head.  There’s obviously a conspiracy >> against you, and you’ll be doing the entire net a favor by exposing it. >Now who does THIS one remind you of, hmmmm?  <G>

LOL!  I would just be happy if our resident sh*thead  would stop using the phrase "three dozen years" in every freakin post he writes. It frustrates me for him that in "three dozen years" he apparently has achieved NOTHING other than a flair for tapping his feet and flapping his gums. OTOH, if he has been at this as long as he claims, then surely he’s quite old by now??  I mean, he didn’t become a dog trainer until *after* he finished vo – tech.  Howe else would he have known what components to put in his little black box?? Forget the fat guy in the bleachers, scenario.  I think Jer’s some really old, bitter guy sitting in the back room of a television "fix it" shop.  His mommy probably loved the family dog more than she did him and that’s how he became fixated on the canine species. Robin

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Nice going, Frosty. Now, perhaps you can answer the question about the necessity for CONDITIONING the dog to the collar, in order that it be effective for long term training purposes? Or, do the collar manufacturers recommend the NECESSITY of conditioning the dog to the collar, just so they can rip everyone off by selling you people a NEEDLESS DUMMY collar? We’ve got people using incorrect methods for snake proofing and teaching the come command, and none of it will work without the collar CONSTANTLY being on the dog, except for the couple of minutes the dog is in the trial… Seems like it doesn’t matter much to you, does it? We didn’t hear from you or anyone else, when I brought the facts to light in the thread by webweave, as she gleefully described howe her dog Moon flipped in the air, ass over bucket, when he got burned. That lady thinks her dog is snake proof. He might be, but only if he’s wearing a shock collar… Then maybe you can address the issue of competent trainers not being competent enough to be able to train a hunting dog to do the most natural thing in their world, hunting, without the need to brutalize and shock them? There seems to be something that doesn’t fit here… If the "experts" were truly expert, they wouldn’t be burning a hunting dog to make him hunt, would they? They’d understand howe to properly motivate and train the dog using far more effective, faster, intelligent, humane, methods. I think you lack some common sense and human decency, in your zeal to control and force the most natural thing in the world, for a Retrieve dog. Perhaps the "experts" you mention, including you and your husband, are not any more expert than our own resident fraud die??? Lets face it, anyone that can write an article that details the kind of punishment and abuse you recommend for training hunting dog, is not intelligent enough to be an expert, in anything except torture. If cavemen had ecollars, we wouldn’t have dogs, would we? Have a nice day! Oh, and if anyone reading has not just eaten a big meal, and has a strong constitution (because you might blow lunch), take a look at where our Frosty is coming from… It’s all here in her and her husbands own words. I suggest you carefully and completely read the entire two pages, it will enlighten you and give you some food for thought… if you can think of eating for a couple of days after reading this trash… http://www.oakhillkennel.com/library/force/force1.html  http://www.oakhillkennel.com/library/force/force2.html DRAINING THE SWAMP, AND RELOCATING THE GATORS… J>>> "CUSTOM WILL RECONCILE PEOPLE TO ANY ATROCITY." G.B. Shaw. "I know that most men, including those at ease with problems of the greatest complexity, can seldom accept even the simplest and most obvious truth if it would oblige them to admit the falsity of conclusions which they have delighted in explaining to colleagues, proudly taught to others, and which they have woven, thread by thread, into the fabric of their lives."                                              Leo Tolstoy Is it any wonder that the following sig file has generated more complaints to my personal email than any other controversial post I have made to date, bar none?:                                             caveat If you have to do things to your dog to train him, that you would rather not have to do, then you shouldn’t be doing them. If you have a dog trainer that tells you to jerk your dog around, choke him, pinch his ears, or twist his toes, shock, shake, slap, scold, hit, or punish him in any manner, that corrections are appropriate, that the dog won’t think of you as the punisher, or that corrections are not harmful, or if they can’t train your dog to do what you want, look for a trainer that knows Howe. Sincerely, Jerry Howe, Wits’ End Dog Training http://www.doggydoright.com Nature, to be mastered, must be obeyed.                       -Francis Bacon- There are terrible people who, instead of solving a problem, bungle it and make it more difficult for all who come after.  Who ever can’t hit the nail on the head should, please, not hit at all.                      -Nietzsche- The abilities to think, rationalize and solve problems are learned qualities. The Wits’ End Dog Training Method challenges the learning centers in the dogs brain. These centers, once challenged, develop and continue to grow exponentially, to make him smarter. The Wits’ End Dog Training method capitalizes on praising split seconds of canine thought, strategy, and timing, not mindless hours of forced repetition, constant corrections, and scolding.                   -Jerry Howe-

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Nice going, Frosty. Now, perhaps you can answer the question about the necessity for CONDITIONING the dog to the collar, in order that it be effective for training purposes. Or, do the collar manufacturers recommend conditioning the dog to the collar, just so they can rip everyone off by selling you people a NEEDLESS DUMMY collar? We’ve got people using incorrect methods for snake proofing and teaching the come command, and none of it will work without the collar CONSTANTLY being on the dog, except for the couple of minutes the dog is in the trial… Then maybe you can address the issue of competent trainers not being competent enough to be able to train a hunting dog to do the most natural thing in their world, hunting, without the need to brutalize and shock them? There seems to be something that doesn’t fit here… If the "experts" were truly expert, they wouldn’t be burning a hunting dog to make him hunt, would they? They’d understand howe to properly motivate and train the dog using far more effective, faster, intelligent, humane methods. If cavemen had ecollars, we wouldn’t have dogs. Have a nice day!

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Well, I admit that I disclaim responsibility for everything everyone everywhere does with e-collars. Yes, Tri-Tronics has consulted me for feedback.  Yes, I am personally acquainted with other trainers they have consulted.  Rex Carr was one of their main sources.  I have not met him but John (my husband and training partner) knows him.  They designed collars to Rex’s specifications. Tri-Tronics employed Jim & Phyllis Dobbs and Alice Woodyard to work with the various models of e-collars and develop methods of training dogs with them.  A lot of novice trainers use these methods today; the top competitive trainers tend to use a different approach, derived from Rex’s work.  Jim, Phyllis, and Alice are dog trainers, not behaviorists, not electrical engineers. IMO, other manufacturers don’t count.  John and I have messed around with their collars and most are unreliable, lack range, and/or are poorly designed for retriever training.  One new company makes a collar which does not fit a large retriever and does not activate in the water. I have never heard of anyone other than Jerry who relies on elves, and nobody with greater scientific background than an undergrad degree from a military academy, for technical design and engineering. Some of Jerry’s questions don’t make sense, but I think this may address them:  I believe effective and humane use of the e-collar must be within the context of a structured, step-by-step training program where the collar is introduced carefully so as to prevent any fear or confusion. Does everybody use it that way?  No. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Hello, Frosty, > Jerry Howe probably isn’t interested in facts, but in case > anyone else is following this: > I kind of do like facts, being as this is my business, not a game or hobby with me. And I > especially like these facts, since these facts here, are going to show that we’ve got some not too > expert "experts" here in rpdb… > Collar manufactureres design and make collars.  Their > expertise is mainly in electronics and materials. > So, where do the get their information from, Elves??? > Dog trainers train dogs. > That’s been my experience for three dozen years. What’s your bag? > The history of the e-collar > involves plenty of communication between the manufacturers > and the trainers. > Oh really? Did they consult you? Or perhaps someone you know? Or perhaps some famous field dog > trainer like dogman? Or perhaps you heard a rumor that they were consulting trainers? > I don’t think the collar manufacturers consulted anyone other that their behaviorists… > The trainers found ways to use remotely > activated shock collars constructively in training, told > the collar manufacturers what they wanted, etc., etc. > Not quite, sweetheart… > Today it is still true that the e-collar manufacturers > know more about electronics than most dog trainers, and > the better dog trainers know more about dog training > than the e-collar manufacturers. > You mean the behaviorists that work with the ecollar manufacturers do not earn their keep? That’s > silly, isn’t it? > The FACTS are, that the better trainers KNOW BETTER than to use ecollars. > And the "expert" trainers here on rpdb, know more about Chinese, than they do dog training. > The mfrs get their > info about dog training from the trainers, not the > other way around. > Wrong. The manufacturers get their information from behaviorists at universities. > Kind of like Fred’s tennis-racket example. > I know fred is in some sort of racket, because he sure isn’t much of a dog trainer… > But as long as you are so interested in the subject, and being that you are an ecollar user, are > you aware of the necessity for conditioning the dogs to the collar prior to, and after abuse with > it? Hmmm??? > What do you say? Huh? Tell us that dog’s don’t need to be conditioned to the collar, or that the > manufacturers do not warn about misusing the collar by not conditioning the dog. > Perhaps you’d like to tell us why the manufacturers sell DUMMY COLLARS? > You think they are double dipping? You think they are ripping us off? Somebody’s getting ripped > off. The rip off happens when idiots train using the ecollar and not pre conditioning their dogs > before snake proofing, or teaching the COME command, or anything else, that we would want our dogs > to do, without having the collar on them. > Perhaps I’m wrong? Straighten us all out, Frosty… Because we’ve got people here, that are > lousing their dogs up, counting on training them to come, or to be snake proof, and you guys don’t > seem to know anything about it. And neither do the dogs, unless they are wearing the ecollar. > That’s the way it works. > I guess we’ll just say that Llama spit happened to you guys, kind of all at once, huh? > > What is your defense to not advising those people interested > > in using the ecollar for snake proofing, or ANY OTHER > > BEHAVIOR, to follow the MANUFACTURERS instructions for > > conditioning the collar? > — > Amy Frost Dahl            Retriever Training            phone: (910) 295-6710 > Pinehurst, NC 28370                                             (http://www.oakhillkennel.com) > DRAINING THE SWAMP, AND RELOCATING THE GATORS… J>>> > "CUSTOM WILL RECONCILE PEOPLE TO ANY ATROCITY." G.B. Shaw. > "I know that most men, including those at ease with problems of the > greatest complexity, can seldom accept even the simplest and most obvious > truth if it would oblige them to admit the falsity of conclusions which > they have delighted in explaining to colleagues, proudly taught to others, > and which they have woven, thread by thread, into the fabric of their > lives." >                                              Leo Tolstoy > Is it any wonder that the following sig file has generated more > complaints to my personal email than any other controversial post I have > made to date, bar none?: >                                             caveat > If you have to do things to your dog to train him, that you would > rather not have to do, then you shouldn’t be doing them. If you > have a dog trainer that tells you to jerk your dog around, choke him, > pinch his ears, or twist his toes, shock, shake, slap, scold, hit, or > punish him in any manner, that corrections are appropriate, that the > dog won’t think of you as the punisher, or that corrections are not > harmful, or if they can’t train your dog to do what you want, look for a > trainer that knows Howe. > Sincerely, > Jerry Howe, > Wits’ End Dog Training > http://www.doggydoright.com > Nature, to be mastered, must be obeyed. >                       -Francis Bacon- > There are terrible people who, instead of solving a problem, > bungle it and make it more difficult for all who come after.  Who > ever can’t hit the nail on the head should, please, not hit at all. >                      -Nietzsche- > The abilities to think, rationalize and solve problems are learned > qualities. > The Wits’ End Dog Training Method challenges the learning > centers in the dogs brain. These centers, once challenged, develop > and continue to grow exponentially, to make him smarter. > The Wits’ End Dog Training method capitalizes on praising split > seconds of canine thought, strategy, and timing, not mindless hours of > forced repetition, constant corrections, and scolding. >                   -Jerry Howe-

– Amy Frost Dahl            Retriever Training            phone: (910) 295-6710 Pinehurst, NC 28370                                             (http://www.oakhillkennel.com)

Response:

> Wrong. The manufacturers get their information from behaviorists at universities.

Like the Dobbs’?  Name one of these behaviorists. Lynn K.

Response:

Thanks for the attribution, Denna, but Bob Wells wrote it, not I. Richard – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->> 4.  Conspiracies abound.  If everyone is against you, the reason can’t >> *possibly* be that you are a sh**head.  There’s obviously a conspiracy >> against you, and you’ll be doing the entire net a favor by exposing it. > Now who does THIS one remind you of, hmmmm?  <G> > Denna > See pointless pics of my art and pets > http://www.picantes.com/windwolf > Also see the real pitbull > http://www.picantes.com/pitbull > ***** > Remove references to flourescent pink pseudo-meat before replying

Response:

> > Wrong. The manufacturers get their information from behaviorists at universities. > Like the Dobbs’?  Name one of these behaviorists. > Lynn K.

Good. Why don’t you ask them to confront me with the mistaken advice I give here? They are ecollar trainers, I’m sure they’d be happy to give us their input. Go ahead, ask them if conditioning the collar is not necessary. Tell them they’ve got a wise guy here that needs to be knocked down a peg or two.. J>

Response:

ZZZZZZZZZttttt…..pop pop pop  pop pop pop There goes the back-up irony meter as well…. To Fred……  >>>Your ridiculous sig file does not address the question…

Response:

>> 4.  Conspiracies abound.  If everyone is against you, the reason can’t > *possibly* be that you are a sh**head.  There’s obviously a conspiracy > against you, and you’ll be doing the entire net a favor by exposing it.

Now who does THIS one remind you of, hmmmm?  <G> Denna See pointless pics of my art and pets http://www.picantes.com/windwolf Also see the real pitbull http://www.picantes.com/pitbull ***** Remove references to flourescent pink pseudo-meat before replying

Response:

Jerry Howe probably isn’t interested in facts, but in case anyone else is following this: Collar manufactureres design and make collars.  Their expertise is mainly in electronics and materials. Dog trainers train dogs.  The history of the e-collar involves plenty of communication between the manufacturers and the trainers.  The trainers found ways to use remotely activated shock collars constructively in training, told the collar manufacturers what they wanted, etc., etc. Today it is still true that the e-collar manufacturers know more about electronics than most dog trainers, and the better dog trainers know more about dog training than the e-collar manufacturers.  The mfrs get their info about dog training from the trainers, not the other way around. Kind of like Fred’s tennis-racket example. > What is your defense to not advising those people interested > in using the ecollar for snake proofing, or ANY OTHER > BEHAVIOR, to follow the MANUFACTURERS instructions for > conditioning the collar?

– Amy Frost Dahl            Retriever Training            phone: (910) 295-6710 Pinehurst, NC 28370                                             (http://www.oakhillkennel.com)

Response:

Hello, Frosty, > Jerry Howe probably isn’t interested in facts, but in case > anyone else is following this:

I kind of do like facts, being as this is my business, not a game or hobby with me. And I especially like these facts, since these facts here, are going to show that we’ve got some not too expert "experts" here in rpdb… > Collar manufactureres design and make collars.  Their > expertise is mainly in electronics and materials.

So, where do the get their information from, Elves??? > Dog trainers train dogs.

That’s been my experience for three dozen years. What’s your bag? > The history of the e-collar > involves plenty of communication between the manufacturers > and the trainers.

Oh really? Did they consult you? Or perhaps someone you know? Or perhaps some famous field dog trainer like dogman? Or perhaps you heard a rumor that they were consulting trainers? I don’t think the collar manufacturers consulted anyone other that their behaviorists… > The trainers found ways to use remotely > activated shock collars constructively in training, told > the collar manufacturers what they wanted, etc., etc.

Not quite, sweetheart… > Today it is still true that the e-collar manufacturers > know more about electronics than most dog trainers, and > the better dog trainers know more about dog training > than the e-collar manufacturers.

You mean the behaviorists that work with the ecollar manufacturers do not earn their keep? That’s silly, isn’t it? The FACTS are, that the better trainers KNOW BETTER than to use ecollars. And the "expert" trainers here on rpdb, know more about Chinese, than they do dog training. > The mfrs get their > info about dog training from the trainers, not the > other way around.

Wrong. The manufacturers get their information from behaviorists at universities. > Kind of like Fred’s tennis-racket example.

I know fred is in some sort of racket, because he sure isn’t much of a dog trainer… But as long as you are so interested in the subject, and being that you are an ecollar user, are you aware of the necessity for conditioning the dogs to the collar prior to, and after abuse with it? Hmmm??? What do you say? Huh? Tell us that dog’s don’t need to be conditioned to the collar, or that the manufacturers do not warn about misusing the collar by not conditioning the dog. Perhaps you’d like to tell us why the manufacturers sell DUMMY COLLARS? You think they are double dipping? You think they are ripping us off? Somebody’s getting ripped off. The rip off happens when idiots train using the ecollar and not pre conditioning their dogs before snake proofing, or teaching the COME command, or anything else, that we would want our dogs to do, without having the collar on them. Perhaps I’m wrong? Straighten us all out, Frosty… Because we’ve got people here, that are lousing their dogs up, counting on training them to come, or to be snake proof, and you guys don’t seem to know anything about it. And neither do the dogs, unless they are wearing the ecollar. That’s the way it works. I guess we’ll just say that Llama spit happened to you guys, kind of all at once, huh? > What is your defense to not advising those people interested > in using the ecollar for snake proofing, or ANY OTHER > BEHAVIOR, to follow the MANUFACTURERS instructions for > conditioning the collar? > — > Amy Frost Dahl            Retriever Training            phone: (910) 295-6710 > Pinehurst, NC 28370                                             (http://www.oakhillkennel.com)

DRAINING THE SWAMP, AND RELOCATING THE GATORS… J>>> "CUSTOM WILL RECONCILE PEOPLE TO ANY ATROCITY." G.B. Shaw. "I know that most men, including those at ease with problems of the greatest complexity, can seldom accept even the simplest and most obvious truth if it would oblige them to admit the falsity of conclusions which they have delighted in explaining to colleagues, proudly taught to others, and which they have woven, thread by thread, into the fabric of their lives."                                              Leo Tolstoy Is it any wonder that the following sig file has generated more complaints to my personal email than any other controversial post I have made to date, bar none?:                                             caveat If you have to do things to your dog to train him, that you would rather not have to do, then you shouldn’t be doing them. If you have a dog trainer that tells you to jerk your dog around, choke him, pinch his ears, or twist his toes, shock, shake, slap, scold, hit, or punish him in any manner, that corrections are appropriate, that the dog won’t think of you as the punisher, or that corrections are not harmful, or if they can’t train your dog to do what you want, look for a trainer that knows Howe. Sincerely, Jerry Howe, Wits’ End Dog Training http://www.doggydoright.com Nature, to be mastered, must be obeyed.                       -Francis Bacon- There are terrible people who, instead of solving a problem, bungle it and make it more difficult for all who come after.  Who ever can’t hit the nail on the head should, please, not hit at all.                      -Nietzsche- The abilities to think, rationalize and solve problems are learned qualities. The Wits’ End Dog Training Method challenges the learning centers in the dogs brain. These centers, once challenged, develop and continue to grow exponentially, to make him smarter. The Wits’ End Dog Training method capitalizes on praising split seconds of canine thought, strategy, and timing, not mindless hours of forced repetition, constant corrections, and scolding.                   -Jerry Howe-

Response:

That’s truly funny, Bob. This should be required reading on all newsgroups.  I found 2,11, and 12 similar. Richard – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > The Twelve Commandments of Flaming > 1.  Make things up about your opponent.  It is important to make your lies > sound true.  Preface your argument with the word clearly.  "Clearly, Fred > Flooney is a liar, and a dirtball to boot." > 2.  Be an armchair psychologist.  Youre a smart person.  You’ve heard of > Freud.  You took a psychology course in college.  Clearly, you’re > qualified to psychoanalyze your opponent.  "Polly Purebread, by using the > word zucchini in her posting, shows she has a bad case of penis envy." > 3.  Cross-post your flames.  Everyone on the net is just waiting for the > next literary masterpiece to leave your terminal!  From the Apple II > RoundTable to X-10 Powerhouse RoundTable, they are all holding their > breath until your next flame.  Therefore, post everywhere. > 4.  Conspiracies abound.  If everyone is against you, the reason can’t > *possibly* be that you are a sh**head.  There’s obviously a conspiracy > against you, and you’ll be doing the entire net a favor by exposing it. > 5.  Lawsuit threats.  This is the reverse of Rule #4 (sort of like the Yin > & Yang of Flaming).  Threatening a lawsuit is always considered to be in > good form.  "By saying that I’ve posted to the wrong group, Bertha has > libeled me, slandered me, and sodomized me.  See you in court, Bertha." > 6.  Force them to document their claims.  Even if Harry Hoinkus states > outright that he likes tomato sauce on his pasta, you should demand > documentation.  If Newsweek hasn’t written an article on Harry’s pasta > preferences, then Harry’s obviously lying. > 7.  Use foreign phrases.  French is good, but Latin is the lingua franca > of Flaming.  You should use the words "ad hominem" at least three times > per article.  Other favorite Latin phrases are "ad nauseum","veni, vidi, > vici", and fetuccini alfredo (unless you’re Harry Hoinkus). > 8.  Tell em how smart you are.  Why use intelligent arguments to convince > them you’re smart when all you have to do is tell them?  State that you’re > a member of Mensa, or Mega, or Dorks of America.  Tell them the scores you > received on every exam since high school.  "I got an 800 on my SATs, GREs, > MCATs, and I can also spell the word premeiotic." > 9.  Accuse your opponent of censorship.  It is your right as an American > citizen to post whatever the hell you want to the net (as guaranteed by > the 37th Amendment, I think).  Anyone who tries to limit your > cross-posting or move a flame ware to e-mail is either a communist, a > fascist, or both. > 10.  Doubt their existence.  You’ve never actually seen your opponent, > have you?  And since you’re the center of the universe, you should have > seen them by now, shouldn’t you?  Therefore, THEY DON’T EXIST!  this is > the beauty of flamers’ logic. > 11.  Lie, cheat, steal, leave the toilet seat up! > 12.  When in doubt, INSULT.  If you forget the other 11 rules, remember > this one.  At some point during your wonderful career as a Flamer you will > undoubtedly end up in a flame war with someone who is better than you. > This person will expose your lies, tear apart your arguments, make you > look generally like a bozo.  At this point, there is only one thing to do; > INSULT THE DIRTBAG!!  "Oh yeah?  Well, your mother does strange things > with vegetables." > I hope this helps you guys work things out! > ;~) > Bob >Hello Frantik Fraud Die, >> Jerry the bleacher screamer rants: >> >Just stick to the point, the issue was >> >conditioning the ecollar. >> Yes, I do it every day.  Any questions on my success of it, >> please see >> signature file below. >Let’s look a little deeper, shall we, Fred??? Because I’m >telling you, you are doing it incorrectly, as you did with >cindi’s dog. >>  >You seem to forget all about it. You seem to >> >make stupid excuses for not doing what you >are supposed >> to. >> Please see signature file below, to see the results that can >> be attained >> doing what I do. >Good for you. HOWE about some STRAIGHT freaking answers??? >Howe come you don’t address conditioning the ecollar in the >snake proofing threads? Didn’t you notice that people are >INCORRECTLY and IMPROPERLY snake proofing their dogs, without >proper prior conditioning of the ecollar according to the >MANUFACTURERS INSTRUCTIONS? >Howe come you don’t speak up, being the expert you are?  I’ve >pointed out, that the snake proofing will not be effective >AFTER THE "TRAINING," without the collar being worn, if the >dog has not been PROPERLY conditioned to it, prior to, and >after abuse? >What gives? Did you miss those threads, Fred??? >Let’s have a straight answer, eh fraud die? >The collar is supposed to be conditioned to the dog both >before and after use, for a significant period of time. >You are avoiding the question, that’s why I’m sending this as >a new message, eh FRED? >Your ridiculous sig file does not address the question… The >question is, HOWE come you do not address proper conditioning >of the ecollar prior to use in snake proofing, or ANY other >training problem??? Like when cindi visited and got her dog >burned for an hour or so? Remember? That dog had no prior >conditioning, and never did accomplish a reliable recall… >and showed signs of nervousness afterward… >You are the "pro" that I’m interested in EXPOSING as a FRAUD, >and IGNORAMUS. >What is your defense to not understanding or using the >conditioning that is >explicitly specified by the manufacturer of the product that >you misuse? >What is your defense to not advising those people interested >in using the ecollar for snake proofing, or ANY OTHER >BEHAVIOR, to follow the MANUFACTURERS instructions for >conditioning the collar? >Don’t forget, those people that attend a "snake proofing >event," such as web weave enjoyed with her dog as he screamed >and FLIPPED IN THE AIR, ass over bucket, when he got burned, >are not regular ecollar users, they borrow the device at the >event…  And you don’t even think of mentioning it??? >HOWE about it, FRAUD DIE? >Are you content to see people improperly snake proof their >dogs, and believe they are protected? It seems that way to >everybody watching, doesn’t it? Better come up with something >fast… >You have no excuse, except that you are an idiot. You could >just say that you don’t care that lots of people are >INEFFECTIVELY "snake proofing" their dogs… That too, would >be consistent with you and your kind. >The dog, in order to work without the E-collar, must be >properly conditioned to it, prior to and after abuse. It is in >the owner’s manual from the ecollar manufacturers. The >manufacturer is aware of the difficulties that will happen if >the unit is not properly conditioned to the dog. >The collar is necessarily supposed to be worn for a period of >time prior to abusing the dog with it. And, it should remain >on the dog for a period of time after the abuse. >Otherwise, the collar will be associated ONLY with the >problem, and the dog will ONLY respond to the problem, ONLY if >the collar is being worn. Without the proper PREREQUISITE >conditioning, all the snake proofing that webweave and >lyinglynn and the other morons here, often like to see >committed against their dogs, goes right down the crapper. >That is why they sell a DUMMY collar, so the dog doesn’t break >the piece of crap during the couple of weeks it’s NEEDED>. >Howe about that??? >Why ELSE would the mfg. have the instructions in their manual? >It’s probably on the >first page after sparking the damn thing up. Is it for idiots >like you to ignore and do as they please? >The manufacturer is fully aware of the difficulties that will >happen if the unit is not properly conditioned to the dog. >That is why they took the trouble to include the instructions >for conditioning in the owner’s manual. >Why would the manufacturers have the instructions in their >manual? Why would they sell a DUMMY collar, specifically for >that purpose? Is there no point in following the instructions >from the manufacturer? >Are the ecollar manufacturers perpetrating a fraud, when they >sell the DUMMY collar specifically for that purpose? >That’ll be rich, you telling us, that the manufacturers sell >the dummy collar, just to rip us off, eh FRED??? >What the hell is wrong with you??? >There is no point in using common sense with you, you are an >incompetent trainer but an excellent fraud. >There is no point in examining the issue, you are hiding >behind misdirection and deception, as you often try to do… >People see right through you, freddie. It’s just like it was >when your were being a weasel in school. Everybody knows… >There is no point in discussing this with you, unless you are >willing to accept and ADMIT the TRUTH… >FAT CHANCE!!! >I have proven my point. I have shown you and the others that >approve of burning dogs to teach them things, that you are >doing it INCORRECTLY and INEFFECTIVELY… >Your statement that aversives must be CONSTANTLY repeated >further proves my point. >Now, as for YOUR FAVORITE statement, that reinforcement never >ends, that part is true. >Here’s WHY! When fear, force, and punishment are used for >training, the training will only be effective if the fear, >force, or abuser are present. >You are welcome to have your pals at tritronics discuss this >with me here on

… read more »

Response:

The Twelve Commandments of Flaming 1.  Make things up about your opponent.  It is important to make your lies sound true.  Preface your argument with the word clearly.  "Clearly, Fred Flooney is a liar, and a dirtball to boot." 2.  Be an armchair psychologist.  Youre a smart person.  You’ve heard of Freud.  You took a psychology course in college.  Clearly, you’re qualified to psychoanalyze your opponent.  "Polly Purebread, by using the word zucchini in her posting, shows she has a bad case of penis envy." 3.  Cross-post your flames.  Everyone on the net is just waiting for the next literary masterpiece to leave your terminal!  From the Apple II RoundTable to X-10 Powerhouse RoundTable, they are all holding their breath until your next flame.  Therefore, post everywhere. 4.  Conspiracies abound.  If everyone is against you, the reason can’t *possibly* be that you are a sh**head.  There’s obviously a conspiracy against you, and you’ll be doing the entire net a favor by exposing it. 5.  Lawsuit threats.  This is the reverse of Rule #4 (sort of like the Yin & Yang of Flaming).  Threatening a lawsuit is always considered to be in good form.  "By saying that I’ve posted to the wrong group, Bertha has libeled me, slandered me, and sodomized me.  See you in court, Bertha." 6.  Force them to document their claims.  Even if Harry Hoinkus states outright that he likes tomato sauce on his pasta, you should demand documentation.  If Newsweek hasn’t written an article on Harry’s pasta preferences, then Harry’s obviously lying. 7.  Use foreign phrases.  French is good, but Latin is the lingua franca of Flaming.  You should use the words "ad hominem" at least three times per article.  Other favorite Latin phrases are "ad nauseum","veni, vidi, vici", and fetuccini alfredo (unless you’re Harry Hoinkus). 8.  Tell em how smart you are.  Why use intelligent arguments to convince them you’re smart when all you have to do is tell them?  State that you’re a member of Mensa, or Mega, or Dorks of America.  Tell them the scores you received on every exam since high school.  "I got an 800 on my SATs, GREs, MCATs, and I can also spell the word premeiotic." 9.  Accuse your opponent of censorship.  It is your right as an American citizen to post whatever the hell you want to the net (as guaranteed by the 37th Amendment, I think).  Anyone who tries to limit your cross-posting or move a flame ware to e-mail is either a communist, a fascist, or both. 10.  Doubt their existence.  You’ve never actually seen your opponent, have you?  And since you’re the center of the universe, you should have seen them by now, shouldn’t you?  Therefore, THEY DON’T EXIST!  this is the beauty of flamers’ logic. 11.  Lie, cheat, steal, leave the toilet seat up! 12.  When in doubt, INSULT.  If you forget the other 11 rules, remember this one.  At some point during your wonderful career as a Flamer you will undoubtedly end up in a flame war with someone who is better than you. This person will expose your lies, tear apart your arguments, make you look generally like a bozo.  At this point, there is only one thing to do; INSULT THE DIRTBAG!!  "Oh yeah?  Well, your mother does strange things with vegetables." I hope this helps you guys work things out! ;~) Bob – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >Hello Frantik Fraud Die, > Jerry the bleacher screamer rants: > >Just stick to the point, the issue was > >conditioning the ecollar. > Yes, I do it every day.  Any questions on my success of it, > please see > signature file below. >Let’s look a little deeper, shall we, Fred??? Because I’m >telling you, you are doing it incorrectly, as you did with >cindi’s dog. >  >You seem to forget all about it. You seem to > >make stupid excuses for not doing what you >are supposed > to. > Please see signature file below, to see the results that can > be attained > doing what I do. >Good for you. HOWE about some STRAIGHT freaking answers??? >Howe come you don’t address conditioning the ecollar in the >snake proofing threads? Didn’t you notice that people are >INCORRECTLY and IMPROPERLY snake proofing their dogs, without >proper prior conditioning of the ecollar according to the >MANUFACTURERS INSTRUCTIONS? >Howe come you don’t speak up, being the expert you are?  I’ve >pointed out, that the snake proofing will not be effective >AFTER THE "TRAINING," without the collar being worn, if the >dog has not been PROPERLY conditioned to it, prior to, and >after abuse? >What gives? Did you miss those threads, Fred??? >Let’s have a straight answer, eh fraud die? >The collar is supposed to be conditioned to the dog both >before and after use, for a significant period of time. >You are avoiding the question, that’s why I’m sending this as >a new message, eh FRED? >Your ridiculous sig file does not address the question… The >question is, HOWE come you do not address proper conditioning >of the ecollar prior to use in snake proofing, or ANY other >training problem??? Like when cindi visited and got her dog >burned for an hour or so? Remember? That dog had no prior >conditioning, and never did accomplish a reliable recall… >and showed signs of nervousness afterward… >You are the "pro" that I’m interested in EXPOSING as a FRAUD, >and IGNORAMUS. >What is your defense to not understanding or using the >conditioning that is >explicitly specified by the manufacturer of the product that >you misuse? >What is your defense to not advising those people interested >in using the ecollar for snake proofing, or ANY OTHER >BEHAVIOR, to follow the MANUFACTURERS instructions for >conditioning the collar? >Don’t forget, those people that attend a "snake proofing >event," such as web weave enjoyed with her dog as he screamed >and FLIPPED IN THE AIR, ass over bucket, when he got burned, >are not regular ecollar users, they borrow the device at the >event…  And you don’t even think of mentioning it??? >HOWE about it, FRAUD DIE? >Are you content to see people improperly snake proof their >dogs, and believe they are protected? It seems that way to >everybody watching, doesn’t it? Better come up with something >fast… >You have no excuse, except that you are an idiot. You could >just say that you don’t care that lots of people are >INEFFECTIVELY "snake proofing" their dogs… That too, would >be consistent with you and your kind. >The dog, in order to work without the E-collar, must be >properly conditioned to it, prior to and after abuse. It is in >the owner’s manual from the ecollar manufacturers. The >manufacturer is aware of the difficulties that will happen if >the unit is not properly conditioned to the dog. >The collar is necessarily supposed to be worn for a period of >time prior to abusing the dog with it. And, it should remain >on the dog for a period of time after the abuse. >Otherwise, the collar will be associated ONLY with the >problem, and the dog will ONLY respond to the problem, ONLY if >the collar is being worn. Without the proper PREREQUISITE >conditioning, all the snake proofing that webweave and >lyinglynn and the other morons here, often like to see >committed against their dogs, goes right down the crapper. >That is why they sell a DUMMY collar, so the dog doesn’t break >the piece of crap during the couple of weeks it’s NEEDED>. >Howe about that??? >Why ELSE would the mfg. have the instructions in their manual? >It’s probably on the >first page after sparking the damn thing up. Is it for idiots >like you to ignore and do as they please? >The manufacturer is fully aware of the difficulties that will >happen if the unit is not properly conditioned to the dog. >That is why they took the trouble to include the instructions >for conditioning in the owner’s manual. >Why would the manufacturers have the instructions in their >manual? Why would they sell a DUMMY collar, specifically for >that purpose? Is there no point in following the instructions >from the manufacturer? >Are the ecollar manufacturers perpetrating a fraud, when they >sell the DUMMY collar specifically for that purpose? >That’ll be rich, you telling us, that the manufacturers sell >the dummy collar, just to rip us off, eh FRED??? >What the hell is wrong with you??? >There is no point in using common sense with you, you are an >incompetent trainer but an excellent fraud. >There is no point in examining the issue, you are hiding >behind misdirection and deception, as you often try to do… >People see right through you, freddie. It’s just like it was >when your were being a weasel in school. Everybody knows… >There is no point in discussing this with you, unless you are >willing to accept and ADMIT the TRUTH… >FAT CHANCE!!! >I have proven my point. I have shown you and the others that >approve of burning dogs to teach them things, that you are >doing it INCORRECTLY and INEFFECTIVELY… >Your statement that aversives must be CONSTANTLY repeated >further proves my point. >Now, as for YOUR FAVORITE statement, that reinforcement never >ends, that part is true. >Here’s WHY! When fear, force, and punishment are used for >training, the training will only be effective if the fear, >force, or abuser are present. >You are welcome to have your pals at tritronics discuss this >with me here on the board. >Best regards, your pal, Jerry.

Response:

Hello Bob, Thanks for the rules, but I don’t play by them. I don’t count points, I go for the kill, and I play for keeps. Jerry.

Response:

I saw this in another NG. I tought of posting it here too!!! LOL – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > The Twelve Commandments of Flaming > 1.  Make things up about your opponent.  It is important to make your lies > sound true.  Preface your argument with the word clearly.  "Clearly, Fred > Flooney is a liar, and a dirtball to boot." > 2.  Be an armchair psychologist.  Youre a smart person.  You’ve heard of > Freud.  You took a psychology course in college.  Clearly, you’re > qualified to psychoanalyze your opponent.  "Polly Purebread, by using the > word zucchini in her posting, shows she has a bad case of penis envy." > 3.  Cross-post your flames.  Everyone on the net is just waiting for the > next literary masterpiece to leave your terminal!  From the Apple II > RoundTable to X-10 Powerhouse RoundTable, they are all holding their > breath until your next flame.  Therefore, post everywhere. > 4.  Conspiracies abound.  If everyone is against you, the reason can’t > *possibly* be that you are a sh**head.  There’s obviously a conspiracy > against you, and you’ll be doing the entire net a favor by exposing it. > 5.  Lawsuit threats.  This is the reverse of Rule #4 (sort of like the Yin > & Yang of Flaming).  Threatening a lawsuit is always considered to be in > good form.  "By saying that I’ve posted to the wrong group, Bertha has > libeled me, slandered me, and sodomized me.  See you in court, Bertha." > 6.  Force them to document their claims.  Even if Harry Hoinkus states > outright that he likes tomato sauce on his pasta, you should demand > documentation.  If Newsweek hasn’t written an article on Harry’s pasta > preferences, then Harry’s obviously lying. > 7.  Use foreign phrases.  French is good, but Latin is the lingua franca > of Flaming.  You should use the words "ad hominem" at least three times > per article.  Other favorite Latin phrases are "ad nauseum","veni, vidi, > vici", and fetuccini alfredo (unless you’re Harry Hoinkus). > 8.  Tell em how smart you are.  Why use intelligent arguments to convince > them you’re smart when all you have to do is tell them?  State that you’re > a member of Mensa, or Mega, or Dorks of America.  Tell them the scores you > received on every exam since high school.  "I got an 800 on my SATs, GREs, > MCATs, and I can also spell the word premeiotic." > 9.  Accuse your opponent of censorship.  It is your right as an American > citizen to post whatever the hell you want to the net (as guaranteed by > the 37th Amendment, I think).  Anyone who tries to limit your > cross-posting or move a flame ware to e-mail is either a communist, a > fascist, or both. > 10.  Doubt their existence.  You’ve never actually seen your opponent, > have you?  And since you’re the center of the universe, you should have > seen them by now, shouldn’t you?  Therefore, THEY DON’T EXIST!  this is > the beauty of flamers’ logic. > 11.  Lie, cheat, steal, leave the toilet seat up! > 12.  When in doubt, INSULT.  If you forget the other 11 rules, remember > this one.  At some point during your wonderful career as a Flamer you will > undoubtedly end up in a flame war with someone who is better than you. > This person will expose your lies, tear apart your arguments, make you > look generally like a bozo.  At this point, there is only one thing to do; > INSULT THE DIRTBAG!!  "Oh yeah?  Well, your mother does strange things > with vegetables." > I hope this helps you guys work things out! > ;~) > Bob >Hello Frantik Fraud Die, >> Jerry the bleacher screamer rants: >> >Just stick to the point, the issue was >> >conditioning the ecollar. >> Yes, I do it every day.  Any questions on my success of it, >> please see >> signature file below. >Let’s look a little deeper, shall we, Fred??? Because I’m >telling you, you are doing it incorrectly, as you did with >cindi’s dog. >>  >You seem to forget all about it. You seem to >> >make stupid excuses for not doing what you >are supposed >> to. >> Please see signature file below, to see the results that can >> be attained >> doing what I do. >Good for you. HOWE about some STRAIGHT freaking answers??? >Howe come you don’t address conditioning the ecollar in the >snake proofing threads? Didn’t you notice that people are >INCORRECTLY and IMPROPERLY snake proofing their dogs, without >proper prior conditioning of the ecollar according to the >MANUFACTURERS INSTRUCTIONS? >Howe come you don’t speak up, being the expert you are?  I’ve >pointed out, that the snake proofing will not be effective >AFTER THE "TRAINING," without the collar being worn, if the >dog has not been PROPERLY conditioned to it, prior to, and >after abuse? >What gives? Did you miss those threads, Fred??? >Let’s have a straight answer, eh fraud die? >The collar is supposed to be conditioned to the dog both >before and after use, for a significant period of time. >You are avoiding the question, that’s why I’m sending this as >a new message, eh FRED? >Your ridiculous sig file does not address the question… The >question is, HOWE come you do not address proper conditioning >of the ecollar prior to use in snake proofing, or ANY other >training problem??? Like when cindi visited and got her dog >burned for an hour or so? Remember? That dog had no prior >conditioning, and never did accomplish a reliable recall… >and showed signs of nervousness afterward… >You are the "pro" that I’m interested in EXPOSING as a FRAUD, >and IGNORAMUS. >What is your defense to not understanding or using the >conditioning that is >explicitly specified by the manufacturer of the product that >you misuse? >What is your defense to not advising those people interested >in using the ecollar for snake proofing, or ANY OTHER >BEHAVIOR, to follow the MANUFACTURERS instructions for >conditioning the collar? >Don’t forget, those people that attend a "snake proofing >event," such as web weave enjoyed with her dog as he screamed >and FLIPPED IN THE AIR, ass over bucket, when he got burned, >are not regular ecollar users, they borrow the device at the >event…  And you don’t even think of mentioning it??? >HOWE about it, FRAUD DIE? >Are you content to see people improperly snake proof their >dogs, and believe they are protected? It seems that way to >everybody watching, doesn’t it? Better come up with something >fast… >You have no excuse, except that you are an idiot. You could >just say that you don’t care that lots of people are >INEFFECTIVELY "snake proofing" their dogs… That too, would >be consistent with you and your kind. >The dog, in order to work without the E-collar, must be >properly conditioned to it, prior to and after abuse. It is in >the owner’s manual from the ecollar manufacturers. The >manufacturer is aware of the difficulties that will happen if >the unit is not properly conditioned to the dog. >The collar is necessarily supposed to be worn for a period of >time prior to abusing the dog with it. And, it should remain >on the dog for a period of time after the abuse. >Otherwise, the collar will be associated ONLY with the >problem, and the dog will ONLY respond to the problem, ONLY if >the collar is being worn. Without the proper PREREQUISITE >conditioning, all the snake proofing that webweave and >lyinglynn and the other morons here, often like to see >committed against their dogs, goes right down the crapper. >That is why they sell a DUMMY collar, so the dog doesn’t break >the piece of crap during the couple of weeks it’s NEEDED>. >Howe about that??? >Why ELSE would the mfg. have the instructions in their manual? >It’s probably on the >first page after sparking the damn thing up. Is it for idiots >like you to ignore and do as they please? >The manufacturer is fully aware of the difficulties that will >happen if the unit is not properly conditioned to the dog. >That is why they took the trouble to include the instructions >for conditioning in the owner’s manual. >Why would the manufacturers have the instructions in their >manual? Why would they sell a DUMMY collar, specifically for >that purpose? Is there no point in following the instructions >from the manufacturer? >Are the ecollar manufacturers perpetrating a fraud, when they >sell the DUMMY collar specifically for that purpose? >That’ll be rich, you telling us, that the manufacturers sell >the dummy collar, just to rip us off, eh FRED??? >What the hell is wrong with you??? >There is no point in using common sense with you, you are an >incompetent trainer but an excellent fraud. >There is no point in examining the issue, you are hiding >behind misdirection and deception, as you often try to do… >People see right through you, freddie. It’s just like it was >when your were being a weasel in school. Everybody knows… >There is no point in discussing this with you, unless you are >willing to accept and ADMIT the TRUTH… >FAT CHANCE!!! >I have proven my point. I have shown you and the others that >approve of burning dogs to teach them things, that you are >doing it INCORRECTLY and INEFFECTIVELY… >Your statement that aversives must be CONSTANTLY repeated >further proves my point. >Now, as for YOUR FAVORITE statement, that reinforcement never >ends, that part is true. >Here’s WHY! When fear, force, and punishment are used for >training, the training will only be effective if the fear, >force, or abuser are present. >You are welcome to have your pals at tritronics discuss this >with me here on the board. >Best regards, your pal, Jerry.

… read more »

Response:

Hello Frantik Fraud Die, > Jerry the bleacher screamer rants: >Just stick to the point, the issue was >conditioning the ecollar. > Yes, I do it every day.  Any questions on my success of it, > please see > signature file below.

Let’s look a little deeper, shall we, Fred??? Because I’m telling you, you are doing it incorrectly, as you did with cindi’s dog. >  >You seem to forget all about it. You seem to >make stupid excuses for not doing what you >are supposed > to. > Please see signature file below, to see the results that can > be attained > doing what I do.

Good for you. HOWE about some STRAIGHT freaking answers??? Howe come you don’t address conditioning the ecollar in the snake proofing threads? Didn’t you notice that people are INCORRECTLY and IMPROPERLY snake proofing their dogs, without proper prior conditioning of the ecollar according to the MANUFACTURERS INSTRUCTIONS? Howe come you don’t speak up, being the expert you are?  I’ve pointed out, that the snake proofing will not be effective AFTER THE "TRAINING," without the collar being worn, if the dog has not been PROPERLY conditioned to it, prior to, and after abuse? What gives? Did you miss those threads, Fred??? Let’s have a straight answer, eh fraud die? The collar is supposed to be conditioned to the dog both before and after use, for a significant period of time. You are avoiding the question, that’s why I’m sending this as a new message, eh FRED? Your ridiculous sig file does not address the question… The question is, HOWE come you do not address proper conditioning of the ecollar prior to use in snake proofing, or ANY other training problem??? Like when cindi visited and got her dog burned for an hour or so? Remember? That dog had no prior conditioning, and never did accomplish a reliable recall… and showed signs of nervousness afterward… You are the "pro" that I’m interested in EXPOSING as a FRAUD, and IGNORAMUS. What is your defense to not understanding or using the conditioning that is explicitly specified by the manufacturer of the product that you misuse? What is your defense to not advising those people interested in using the ecollar for snake proofing, or ANY OTHER BEHAVIOR, to follow the MANUFACTURERS instructions for conditioning the collar? Don’t forget, those people that attend a "snake proofing event," such as web weave enjoyed with her dog as he screamed and FLIPPED IN THE AIR, ass over bucket, when he got burned, are not regular ecollar users, they borrow the device at the event…  And you don’t even think of mentioning it??? HOWE about it, FRAUD DIE? Are you content to see people improperly snake proof their dogs, and believe they are protected? It seems that way to everybody watching, doesn’t it? Better come up with something fast… You have no excuse, except that you are an idiot. You could just say that you don’t care that lots of people are INEFFECTIVELY "snake proofing" their dogs… That too, would be consistent with you and your kind. The dog, in order to work without the E-collar, must be properly conditioned to it, prior to and after abuse. It is in the owner’s manual from the ecollar manufacturers. The manufacturer is aware of the difficulties that will happen if the unit is not properly conditioned to the dog. The collar is necessarily supposed to be worn for a period of time prior to abusing the dog with it. And, it should remain on the dog for a period of time after the abuse. Otherwise, the collar will be associated ONLY with the problem, and the dog will ONLY respond to the problem, ONLY if the collar is being worn. Without the proper PREREQUISITE conditioning, all the snake proofing that webweave and lyinglynn and the other morons here, often like to see committed against their dogs, goes right down the crapper. That is why they sell a DUMMY collar, so the dog doesn’t break the piece of crap during the couple of weeks it’s NEEDED>. Howe about that??? Why ELSE would the mfg. have the instructions in their manual? It’s probably on the first page after sparking the damn thing up. Is it for idiots like you to ignore and do as they please? The manufacturer is fully aware of the difficulties that will happen if the unit is not properly conditioned to the dog. That is why they took the trouble to include the instructions for conditioning in the owner’s manual. Why would the manufacturers have the instructions in their manual? Why would they sell a DUMMY collar, specifically for that purpose? Is there no point in following the instructions from the manufacturer? Are the ecollar manufacturers perpetrating a fraud, when they sell the DUMMY collar specifically for that purpose? That’ll be rich, you telling us, that the manufacturers sell the dummy collar, just to rip us off, eh FRED??? What the hell is wrong with you??? There is no point in using common sense with you, you are an incompetent trainer but an excellent fraud. There is no point in examining the issue, you are hiding behind misdirection and deception, as you often try to do… People see right through you, freddie. It’s just like it was when your were being a weasel in school. Everybody knows… There is no point in discussing this with you, unless you are willing to accept and ADMIT the TRUTH… FAT CHANCE!!! I have proven my point. I have shown you and the others that approve of burning dogs to teach them things, that you are doing it INCORRECTLY and INEFFECTIVELY… Your statement that aversives must be CONSTANTLY repeated further proves my point. Now, as for YOUR FAVORITE statement, that reinforcement never ends, that part is true. Here’s WHY! When fear, force, and punishment are used for training, the training will only be effective if the fear, force, or abuser are present. You are welcome to have your pals at tritronics discuss this with me here on the board. Best regards, your pal, Jerry.

Response:

You could call this the "Sales Prevention Department"

<snip> – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->let a salesperson get the "lead hot" and ready to sign >and then you are someother technically competent person make sure that >expectations are in line before you "let them" sign the contract – <snip>

Response:

>Further, IMHO, the same keys to your success in selling advertising can be an >asset to you in selling "Tech".  Think about it … the business owner doesn’t >really buy MIPs or Cycles or GUIs or function points or …. any of this "Tech >stuff" – They buy Business Benefits! and ROI! Right?

People buy hi-tech products because they think they’re suppose to or their employees think they are supposed to. Very few people buy computers to improve their ROI. They buy them to solve problems that are too costly to do otherwise. They buy them to keep from hiring more employees, or to insure their compliance with tax collecting agencies and federal regulations. If people bought computers to make money, my job would be a piece of cake. They don’t believe computers can make them money because very few of them know how to use one to make money. The positive effects of a good computer system is that it changes the way you think. A computer is just a machine, and someone has to apply intelligence to the hardware and software to create a new perspective, a new outlook on their method of operation.  As long as personal computers continue to lead the market, it will never change. Regards, ScotSystems Inc. – http://www.scotsystems.com RVForumDot Com – http://www.rvforum.com AS/400 Support Forum – http://www.scotsystems.com/as400_os400.html 601 638-6989 Voice 601 631-0165 Fax 800 698-0462 Pager ICQ Address: 2783173 N32 24.753 W90 46.328  

Response:

> >  So, perhaps rather than limit yourself by "writing off" >salespeople altogether, maybe you should develop a commission plan that >incents the type of behavior you would like, right? > As I see it, the problem is no matter how hard you look, you can never > know everything the salesman told the customer. Many times I have been > asked to explain why my system, which includes over 1,000 objects and > programs, doesn’t perform this specific task or that one. The saleman > doesn’t remeber becuase with the customer says "does it do this?", the > salesman says, "heck yes it’s do that."

Ok, sure I can understand that.  So, why not think about some ways to address this issue … like, let a salesperson get the "lead hot" and ready to sign and then you are someother technically competent person make sure that expectations are in line before you "let them" sign the contract – What do you think about something like that?  Obviously it would be preferable to either have a technically competent person do the sales and/or have one participate in the complete sales cycle, but I also know for a "small shop or firm" that this may not be feasible, so … think about solutions!  What do you think? > I don’t mean anything derogatory by this, but one of my favorite jokes > is, "Do you know the difference between a used car salesman and a > computer salesman?" The used car salesman KNOWS when he’s lying.

<G> I think this is *funny*, and sad , but true, so … What can be done about this issue? Hope this helps, – Michael S. DeVries   Principal, Virtual Consulting Firm   Global Business Marketing, Inc. (TM) Consulting Services, Training / Courses and Mentoring To Help You in: * Business * Management * IT/Computer Phone: (205) 761-9051      Fax:   (205) 761-9227 ****** http://www.Creative-Trade.com/vcf.htm ******

Response:

>  So, perhaps rather than limit yourself by "writing off" >salespeople altogether, maybe you should develop a commission plan that >incents the type of behavior you would like, right?

As I see it, the problem is no matter how hard you look, you can never know everything the salesman told the customer. Many times I have been asked to explain why my system, which includes over 1,000 objects and programs, doesn’t perform this specific task or that one. The saleman doesn’t remeber becuase with the customer says "does it do this?", the salesman says, "heck yes it’s do that." I don’t mean anything derogatory by this, but one of my favorite jokes is, "Do you know the difference between a used car salesman and a computer salesman?" The used car salesman KNOWS when he’s lying. Regards, ScotSystems Inc. – http://www.scotsystems.com RVForumDot Com – http://www.rvforum.com AS/400 Support Forum – http://www.scotsystems.com/as400_os400.html 601 638-6989 Voice 601 631-0165 Fax 800 698-0462 Pager ICQ Address: 2783173 N32 24.753 W90 46.328  

Response:

<snip> > I was a salesman for 14 years <snip> my success was > due to my knack of transporting the customer to an imaginary > environment within which he actually believed that the successes I > painted for him were possible.

<snip> IMHO, "sales is like riding a bike" – you just have to get "back on one" to remember how Further, IMHO, the same keys to your success in selling advertising can be an asset to you in selling "Tech".  Think about it … the business owner doesn’t really buy MIPs or Cycles or GUIs or function points or …. any of this "Tech stuff" – They buy Business Benefits! and ROI! Right? So, why not transport you client into the future – after buying your product or service – and have them imagine how their business will run better, smoother, more productively, more efficiently, etc.  If they are transported into this vision and see how your product(s) and/or service(s) can help him get there, then why wouldn’t he buy it? Again, just to reiterate – business people buy business solutions! not "Tech stuff", so why try to sell them "Tech stuff", Sell them Business Solutions! Hope this helps, – Michael S. DeVries   Principal, Virtual Consulting Firm   Global Business Marketing, Inc. (TM) Consulting Services, Training / Courses and Mentoring To Help You in: * Business * Management * IT/Computer Phone: (205) 761-9051      Fax:   (205) 761-9227 ****** http://www.Creative-Trade.com/vcf.htm ******

Response:

Dear Bill: I guess I am missing your point somehow.  Your post seemed to point out many of the problems with current state of information technology.  I am missing the connection between those problems and what that has to do with making "the customer understand this and you’ll be a zillionaire."  That seems to imply that you have solutions to these problems but you don’t really say what they are.  It sounds like you want people to migrate their applications from PC’s to AS/400’s.  Tough sale in a lot of cases having to do with attitudes, correct or not.  As I said earlier in this thread, it’s very expensive to change attitudes, like convincing technical people that non-technical marketing personnel can do good work in their environment. So, do you try to change attitudes or just concentrate on finding the market segment that is already biased toward the solution you will ultimately offer? My experience selling intangibles (financial services) versus technical products was similar to yours.  Unfortunately I couldn’t seem to captivate my audience as well as you could selling the intangibles, so I am eager to get back to manufactured products again where I am comfortable with the decision making process.  My strengths have been more in the area of research, analysis and planning than sales anyway.  But even with technical products, there often is an emotional component to decision making.  You hinted at this when talking about how IS types want something they can play with and brag about at cocktail parties. I can also relate to your problem with competitors not playing fair.  I frequently find myself competing with someone who offers impossibly good rates and terms.  I know damn well that as they get close to loan closing that they will end up changing them to reflect where the market really is due to some flimsy excuse.  At that point the client has to decide to either start all over with someone else and end up with the same result or going ahead with the unscrupulous lender/broker.  Since I refuse to play that game I am at a significant disadvantage. Getting through to the actual decision makers has been a common problem in every industry I have been involved in.  These people tend to insulate themselves with underlings who filter their information for them (and hence put their own spin on it), so it’s a little tricky communicating with them directly, especially if they do not appreciate the vital nature of their IS department.  The best solution is communicating with both the influencers and decision-makers in their own languages and pushing their special hot buttons.  This approach is more expensive and more work than approaching just the key influencers or key decision makers, but it seems to improve the chances of success. Charles J. Dudek resume: http://home.earthlink.net/~cdudek/

Response:

As a marketing person, I have a great deal of respect for technical experts that design and support a company’s products and services.  I don’t recall ever discussing a technical aspect of a product with a customer or prospect without involving or at least consulting with an engineer unless I had received the information previously.  Yet it has been my experience that technically-oriented people like engineers do not respect the work of marketing people.  They feel that marketing is just the application of common sense and to an extent they are correct.  However, I have been bitten many times by engineers who made product decisions that were based on their own preferences and assumptions which were not reflective of the target market’s desires.  Engineers tend to be biased toward technical superiority, efficiency and cost-effectiveness.  However, these are not necessarily the things that will maximize profitability and engineers must be constantly reminded that changes which potentially affect form or function must be discussed with marketing.  They don’t like to do this because  they often feel better qualified to make these decisions, due to their superior technical understanding, than even customers or prospects .  But sometimes customers do not share their viewpoints and that’s where I think a marketing person, not directly involved in the design process, can be valuable in being an advocate of the customers’ needs.  I have been personally involved in cases where diligent market research led product development efforts in a direction greatly different from the engineering staff’s original specs. I feel I can honestly say that if I had an engineering degree it wouldn’t have made any difference in how I marketed the technical products I was responsible for.  Our customers tended to communicate their needs in a language somewhat different from our engineers since the problems existed in one discipline and the solutions in another.  For example, I doubt that cost accountants much care about your coding, they only care about how they will be able to process and access data.  Although having an engineering background might have made me more credible to engineers who were responsible for design, it might have also made me a threat to them since I would have been tempted to tell them how to design instead of just conveying our customers’ desires.  Taking some electrical engineering courses, as I did, helped me understand some of the language and problems that the engineers were dealing with, but it did not change the market’s needs or my insistence on developing ways to meet them.  If the market wants something, it doesn’t matter how well you can explain why it can’t be done, so having the engineering knowledge would not have helped me communicate with our market.  I know I will not change your mind, but making engineering degrees mandatory for marketing people will not necessarily result in more successful marketing programs and could actually have the opposite effect. That is, if you’re really marketing and not selling. My observations are based on the central tendencies of my experiences. Obviously there are exceptions.  I think what is called for here is a little mutual respect for each profession which encompasses different skill sets. Making unilateral decisions about issues which are beyond an individual’s expertise, whether in the area of IS, accounting, production, engineering, sales or marketing, is not a good thing.  However, the limitation of each specialist does diminish the specialized knowledge of those professionals nor does it obviate the need for that unique skill set in an effective organization. Charles J. Dudek resume: http://home.earthlink.net/~cdudek/ – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – <snip> >Every sale that’s been made by a marketing person has gotten me into >hot water. I’m being sued right now for $200K by a customer that >"misunderstood" what the salesman told him. No marketing department >will ever sell anything for me again. >Yes I know the difference between marketing and sales. Unfortunately >most marketing people don’t.

Response:

>>I am having one heck of a time cracking into the<BR> > world of high tech marketing.<BR> ><snip><BR> > The answer I most frequently get is that I do not have high tech >experience.<BR> ><snip>

<BR> <BR> Speaking as someone who hires marketing people for a relatively high tech area (Professional Audio/Digital Audio), I want to know four things: <BR> 1)Does the person intimately understand my business and the technology? <BR> 2) Does he/she know enough to translate my tech-speak into English (or whatever language) that my customer understands? <BR> 3) Does he/she know what MY customer really wants? <BR> 4) Does he have successful, documented experience doing the above?<BR> From past experience, when I hire an agency or marketer who does not understand my business, I get output that is so general it neither differentiates me  nor adds value.  And those are the two things I’m trying to get done! <BR> I agree, Michael, you need the industry specific experieince and knowledge to offer something special.  After all, no one needs to just "hire" someone, they want superstars.<BR> – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Brad Lunde >transamerica audio group, inc >Drawmer USA, Soundfield Mics USA, Brauner Mics USA >805-241-4443 >805-241-7839 fax

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>My observations are based on the central tendencies of my experiences. >Obviously there are exceptions.  I think what is called for here is a little >mutual respect for each profession which encompasses different skill sets. >Making unilateral decisions about issues which are beyond an individual’s >expertise, whether in the area of IS, accounting, production, engineering, >sales or marketing, is not a good thing.  However, the limitation of each >specialist does diminish the specialized knowledge of those professionals >nor does it obviate the need for that unique skill set in an effective >organization.

I agree with everything you’ve said Charles. Maybe someday I’ll find a good marketing person who can help me improve my sales. I would like to add something to your comments that might shed some light on my feelings. I was a salesman for 14 years before I got into the computer business in 1978. I was a good salesman and made enough money to start my own computer business. I sold advertising. In that field, my success was due to my knack of transporting the customer to an imaginary environment within which he actually believed that the successes I painted for him were possible. However, the more I got into the computer business, the less of a salesman I became.  I had to deal with actual facts, and I had to be able to demonstarte them early on or I would be just another liar. I find it literally impossible to wear both hats now. Having a complete and precise understanding of the product is a horrible asset. I can no longer answer questions honestly without jeopardizing the sale. When a customer asks, "can it do that?", instead of answering in the affirmative, I feel compelled to explain what we will have to do to make that happen. OR even worse, I have to explain why it doesn’t do that and why he doesn’t want it to do that.  In our field, I have found that customers have attended too many Star Wars episodes. They believe anything is possible. My biggest problem at the moment is competing against sales and marketing people who have become experts at selling "vapor-ware". They make the customer believe that some things are possible, then they bleed the customer to death trying to make it happen. I lose the sale, and the customer loses his money. Then the customer becomes leary of me and everybody else in the business. It tends to make one cynical. Now the world of PCs are a bit different than the mid-range market I deal in. The computers I sell don’t play games, hook to the Internet – there’s no cute little mouse or colorful icons. It’s all business and consequently somewhat boring in comparison to Windows-based PCs. But the plus side is, they never crash, they rarely require a service call, they come with worldwide on-site servce and they are infinitely scalable; and for a kicker, they are about three times cheaper to run than a PC LAN. Our potential customers are usually the owners of businesses, not their employees. These "owners" tend to be somewhat handicapped in the understanding of data processing technology. They listen to their employees more than they listen to anybody else. Their employees want something they can play with. Something that will empower them. Something that will make their jobs more interesting, more fun, more commerically appealing to their peers. They love to go to cocktaiil parties and talk about high technology issues that will give them a common base of conversation with their peers. They’re not interested in the cost to run it, the on-site service, or the crash protection. And as far as scalability is concerned, how much room do you need for word processing and spreadsheets? They just go down to the Walmarts and grab another one. Microsoft has done a marvelous job at marketing, but a terrible job at quality control. But Microsoft was necessary. They have managed to get the issue of data processing out of the dungeons and the boardrooms and into the bright lights of the office where millions of workers have become involved and far more productive. A feat that no one else had been able, or even attempted to do. But now Microsoft is holding us back. The PC architecture has run its course. We need to move to a new level of technology. Microsoft is hopelessly tethered to 15 year old technology that refuses to die because it’s necessary to run all these commercially popular programs that made Microsoft famous in the first place. Who wants to buy Beta machines when they’ve gone 4,000 VHS tapes in the closet? We have to leap frog over the heads of the people the boss listens to and get the buyer to realize the benefits of a better type of environment without endangering the empowerment his employees have struggled so hard to retain. We have to get hime to realize the perils of apathy and complacency. This usually only happens after the boss is fed up with the current environment, runs into a business associate who has broken the bonds of what’s commercially attractive, and finally decides to do something about it. If it weren’t for the Year 2000, I would define my chances as "hopeless" to none. But the fact is, that 80-90% of the world’s PCs with turn belly-up on January 1, 2000. Why? Because most of these machines are loaded with little devices called embedded controllers – the little black chips that permeate the technology like white on rice. There are at least 10 billion of these little chips in virtually every electronic device on the face of the planet. PCs are lousy with them. They come from Taiwan, Indonesia, Japan, Malaysia, China, Bangladesh and Central and South America. Nobody really knows what these embedded controllers do, or whether they are date sensitive. But let’s say that the number of failures is as little as 10%. That’s 1 million systems failing all at once. Then there’s the problem of old PC technology that will crash regardless of the embedded controllers. There are literally millions, no tens of millions of these antiquated devices still in service. The disrutptions caused by this mere oversight will result in a catastrophe of monumental proportions. It will be talked discussed and studied for the next 1,000 years. Then there’s the problems of standards and electronic commerce. Just when we think it’s safe to turn our machines on again, businesses will find out they are no longer able to compete on a level playing field because of their self-imposed isolation with incompitible environments and equipment that won’t "talk". Show me a way to get a salesman to get the customer to understand this and you’ll be a zillionaire. Regards, ScotSystems Inc. – http://www.scotsystems.com RVForumDot Com – http://www.rvforum.com AS/400 Support Forum – http://www.scotsystems.com/as400_os400.html 601 638-6989 Voice 601 631-0165 Fax 800 698-0462 Pager ICQ Address: 2783173 N32 24.753 W90 46.328  

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>I agree that the principles of marketing are universal and I have often said >that it doesn’t matter if you’re selling battleship parts or panty hose.  On >the other hand, my experience for the past few years has been in financial >services, a field that was completely new to me.  That shouldn’t have >mattered, but it sure did.  What I have learned is that the application of >marketing principles can be tricky and the decision making processes are >quite different than I had dealt with at manufacturing companies.

Dear Mr. Dudek, I had about twenty years experience working with the financial services industry up until my work was put to the ultimate test. The accuracy of the work is summarized in the following item from "Worth" magazine: http://www.worth.com/articles/Z9511F02.html Marketing principles apply to financial services exactly the same way they apply to any other business. As we saw in the late 1980’s and early 1990’s, there is a terrible price to pay for ignoring them. > Oddly, >decisions seem to have a larger emotional component and a smaller fact >component than in product marketing.  You would think just the opposite, >since financial transactions by their very nature are quantifiable, but the >thought of money itself automatically generates a large amount of emotion.

Part of the issue is the role of legislation and regulation in financial services. Up until FIRREA, 1937-1989, poor decision making and non-marketing were actually rewarded by the regulatory and insurance environment for thrifts and banks.  This created, not so much incompetence, but an insular avoidance of competance in banking at senior management levels. Today, marketing competence at financial organizations is probably at the highest level it has been in the last 75 years. It still has a long way to go. >At my earliest opportunity I am high-tailing it back to manufacturing where >life is a lot simpler and I am more at home.

This would probably be a loss for the financial industry. They need more people with an understanding of marketing. Sherman Whipple, Sargent & Associates Strategic Services 10 Industrial Park Road, Hingham, MA 02043 http://www.whipplesargent.com

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<<Every sale that’s been made by a marketing person has gotten me into hot water. I’m being sued right now for $200K by a customer that "misunderstood" what the salesman told him. No marketing department will ever sell anything for me again. Yes I know the difference between marketing and sales. Unfortunately most marketing people don’t.>> I would be very interested in hearing your definitions of marketing & sales. As for "what the salesman told him", they usually tell them what the technical people tell them and what "management" tell them. If not, your hiring practices need overhauling, your closing processes need work, your overall sales process needs to be reengineered, internal communications needs to be reviewed, your product needs to be better documented, or all of the above… Regardless of the definition of marketing, sales or whatever else, I suspect you have some major problems in your organization that go beyond this single incident. You will realize (usually later than sooner) meaningful growth depends on building a healthy "self-reliant" organization able to perform normal business functions without your presence. I suggest you take some time to reflect on the incident and track down the "root" causes of the failure. Just one person’s opinion. J.P. Solyom KS Business Development

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> As an experienced marketer with over 15 years of practical, hands-on time in > the world of marketing, I’d like to ask for input on something. I am having one > heck of a time cracking into the world of high tech marketing.

Here’s a newsletter to subscribe to. Published by Guy Sohie, PhD, and focuses on precisely your target market.  Called GEMS Executive Strategies. Good stuff. Guy has a lot of experience in the field, and writes clearly and with an understandable style. ==== To subscribe to GEMS Executive Strategies, send e-mail to SUBSCRIBE in the subject line.) ==== Hope this is useful. Paul — Netrepreneur’s Digest – http://www.talkbiz.com/digest Small Business Articles, Discussion boards, a weekly email newsletter, and other free stuff. Stop by and say hello!

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>(snip) >  From my experience we are slowly turning away from selling a product > because ‘it can do all these things’, to ‘you customer wanted this, so > here it is’. This can be spread to promotional side of things, making the > e.g. adverts more interesting and like consumer adverts, rather than dry > features only. >I figure overall High Tech Marketing is not special.

Well, kinda disagree. High tech marketing requires special focus on the product and on the target audience. Think about this. Some ISP advertised their services the same way Pepsi and Coke are doing. I mean, attack the competitor, take him to the street. In India the recent campains during the Cricket (a game widely played) Coke displayed Pepsi’s models as monkey’s while Pepsi went on to ridicule Coke’s punch line "Eat cricket, Sleep Cricket Drink only Coca cola" Similarly, a local Tire manufacture here tried to flex his muscles with Good Year and fellow Indian manufacturer. The relevant point here is what worked for Coke, Pepsi, and others is not working for the ISP – a high tech industry at the moment. Had the contributors been a bit focussed and had any idea about what is required, they might have realized the potential. Now they are contributing to their own negative campaign. my $ 0.02 cents Krishnan J iyer bcmfax.net Redefining Global Fax Communications http://www.bcmfax.net

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>The answer I most frequently get is that I do not have high tech experience. >My comeback is that marketing, done properly, cuts across all industries.

Based on how I handle this: 1) You do have High Tech experience but don’t sell it. You can talk about products, results and offer to fax samples of client marketing literature you have been involved with. Even better give them a URL. 2) You can stupidly say "It’s all benefits innit" ask about their product and discuss it, so they can sniff out expertise. 3) You could also point out that the eventual cheque signers are none technical and have to understand what they are buying. Then bore them with a potted case study of the DEC VAX. This was mainframe which was brilliant, engineers loved it and would specify it, but it lost sales as the marketing was incomprehensible to the cheque signers. John John Block                         Creative, marketing aware work which Freelance Copywriter               talks rather than blandly bores,                                    actively promotes your product, International                      and aims to be the best Welcomes Dollar and Sterling,      in your market sector.

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<snip> > Every sale that’s been made by a marketing person has gotten me into > hot water. I’m being sued right now for $200K by a customer that > "misunderstood" what the salesman told him. No marketing department > will ever sell anything for me again.

Well, you and I both know that the sales/marketing person is incented = paid to sell the product or engagment, right?  Not, where it works or is even feasible, right?  I’m not trying to "bash" salespeople, really. I just think that it is very important to look at what the person is incented to do and then expect that this is exactly what they are going to do, you know what I mean?  So, perhaps rather than limit yourself by "writing off" salespeople altogether, maybe you should develop a commission plan that incents the type of behavior you would like, right? Hope this helps, – Michael S. DeVries   Principal, Virtual Consulting Firm   Global Business Marketing, Inc. (TM) Consulting Services, Training / Courses and Mentoring To Help You in: * Business * Management * IT/Computer Phone: (205) 761-9051      Fax:   (205) 761-9227 ****** http://www.Creative-Trade.com/vcf.htm ******

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(snip) >  From my experience we are slowly turning away from selling a product > because ‘it can do all these things’, to ‘you customer wanted this, so > here it is’. This can be spread to promotional side of things, making the > e.g. adverts more interesting and like consumer adverts, rather than dry > features only.

I figure overall High Tech Marketing is not special. While the part in Belinda’s comment on promotion is true – a few years ago while working in a packaging firm I had the task of trawling the trade magazines for info on polymer films. The number of photos of scantily clad women used to promote these products amazed me. In consumer ads they would have been unacceptable outside of a cosmetics promotion. I presumed then as now, some poor Joe in a large ad agency was asked to draw up a campaign and had an insight from the data along the lines of "40 – 50 year old male Engineers spec this stuff"…. What do the copywriters think these guys want? Young women! And of course, thats why the Engineers are queueing up to read Packaging Weekly…. Recently I noticed a promotion for investment in the country of Slovakia with a similar idea, the Advert read: "There are some impressive figures" etc with a woman dressed in a trouser suit (Ah Progress!) standing by a window with some graphs to one side and the call to action was to phone the featured woman. I figure it is laziness on the Advertising agency and not trying to understand their target audiences really ARE interested in boring old ROI, polymer film, widgets etc. IMHO Benefit promotion works better in business to business promotion than in consumer advertising esp in software where you are essentially selling an intangible item as one CD looks like another no matter what is on it be it Dire Straights or Windoze ‘98. > To sum up: * hi tech/industrial will not like being told their industry is > like the consumer market. These days I think the difference is only > partially true. * learn a little about an industry before diving in. May > be target one type for a start. * the hi tech market is getting more > towards consumer methods, but it isn’t quite there yet. Having experience > of both could be good.

Also while working in the Packaging firm I learnt that people in the technical end in one industry hate to think their industry is similar to any other. They like to believe they have unique characteristics, corporate personalities, facing uniquely difficult challenges and problems. Of course, this is absolute and manifold nonsense. If you can cut the mustard in the Instant Coffee business the same fundemental rules apply in the Coffee Machine code supplier business. Keep the costbase low, minimise overhead, maximise profit, recognise your niche and dominate it.

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> Without my physics degree >background and other various subjects, I think I would have found it quite >difficult to work in this environment.

Your informative post reminds me of a computer salesman that once marketed my product for a third party firm I had licensed my software to. He was one of those pre-PC IBMers that was used to selling mainframes to systems analysts in large companies. He was talking to a prospect one day about selling him an IBM/Sys 36 midrange computer. The customer asked him "How does a computer work?" Without missing a beat, he respnded with "Real good and that’s all you need to know." The customer laughed and bought the system anyway. Now that kind of story tends to make a marketing person think, "you don’t need to be an expert to market a high-tech product." But if you ask me, you can’t make a living with that kind of cr*p anymore. My prospects ask me hard technical problems, and detailed questions involving accounting issues on how the system handles complicated taxing situations and moving average inventory costing (to menion two of hundreds). Some of them I can’t answer myself and I wrote the code. I have to go back and research the question and get back to them. Every sale that’s been made by a marketing person has gotten me into hot water. I’m being sued right now for $200K by a customer that "misunderstood" what the salesman told him. No marketing department will ever sell anything for me again. Yes I know the difference between marketing and sales. Unfortunately most marketing people don’t. Regards, ScotSystems Inc. – http://www.scotsystems.com RVForumDot Com – http://www.rvforum.com AS/400 Support Forum – http://www.scotsystems.com/as400_os400.html 601 638-6989 Voice 601 631-0165 Fax 800 698-0462 Pager ICQ Address: 2783173 N32 24.753 W90 46.328  

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> I am having one heck of a time cracking into the > world of high tech marketing. <snip> > The answer I most frequently get is that I do not have high tech experience.

<snip> That’s hardly unique regarding anyone trying to move into an area or position they have not specifically done before.  The "nay sayers" always say "well, you have never done task xyz before or you don’t have years of experience doing abc", so … in my opinion the critical quality is the ability to adapt and learn, so … you need not feel in this type of situation alone. However, as someone else mentioned, you can help yourself by "boning up" on information regarding this industry and learning the jargon so you can "talk the talk", ya’know?  Then some will barely know you don’t have years of experience, right? > marketing, done properly, cuts across all industries.

Well, yes the basic concepts of marketing do apply across industries. However, IMHO, you want to be both creative and learn how to customize these marketing concepts for optimal effectiveness in a particular industry, and then for a particular product, right? Again, it would help if you acquired knowledge of the IT industry so you can demonstrate how these concepts apply to a particular product or service, right? > Software is something now sold no differently than a can of coffee.

No!  I disagree.  Yes, you can buy some software at retail outlets, but IMHO that is not where the money is … Many "larger" business software packages are sold either via advertising and direct sales and/or as part of an overall business solution, typically selected and recommended by IT/computer consultants. Therefore, one good strategy for you both to learn more of the IT industry and "get a foot in the door" is to partner with one or more IT consulting firms and/or their strategic software/hardware partners – what do you think of that idea? Hope this helps, – Michael S. DeVries   Principal, Virtual Consulting Firm   Global Business Marketing, Inc. (TM) Consulting Services, Training / Courses and Mentoring To Help You in: * Business * Management * IT/Computer Phone: (205) 761-9051      Fax:   (205) 761-9227 ****** http://www.Creative-Trade.com/vcf.htm ******

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I have been working in the marketing department of an industrial/hi tech international company for the last 8 years. Without my physics degree background and other various subjects, I think I would have found it quite difficult to work in this environment. Because of the subject and the customers, there is the need for more ‘customisation’ for customers. They may want a vacuum pump to make e.g. silicon chips, but there is a lot more to it than ‘this batch of customers will buy this type of coffee because of the quality and promotion we do’.  They need to consider exhaust management, servicing agreements, gases to be used, their production methods, the future…. Marketing in hi tech/industrial companies includes a lot more contact with production, technical, customers… than I think the consumer areas. I have had one experience with using a research agency to do some research for me. It was difficult as the questions, of course, were quite technical. By the time we had reviewed them with them, we could have done it all ourselves. The results were not new and their lack of knowledge of the market hindered some real results. There is the other side to it. I have found that because I have been in the industry for a while now, I can get sucked into doing short term actions, rather than keeping above it all. I think a consultant who has looked into the industry I am working in, who knows a little about recent developments and trends, such as from magazines will have more cred, than someone saying a pump is like selling coffee. I also think that someone who has had experience of ‘both sides’, consumer and hi tech is an asset. From my experience we are slowly turning away from selling a product because ‘it can do all these things’, to ‘you customer wanted this, so here it is’. This can be spread to promotional side of things, making the e.g. adverts more interesting and like consumer adverts, rather than dry features only. To sum up: * hi tech/industrial will not like being told their industry is like the consumer market. These days I think the difference is only partially true. * learn a little about an industry before diving in. May be target one type for a start. * the hi tech market is getting more towards consumer methods, but it isn’t quite there yet. Having experience of both could be good. Good luck, Belinda

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> I am having one >heck of a time cracking into the world of high tech marketing.

Nice to hear! >My background is consumer packaged goods, and for the past few years I have >been consulting in various other industries. However, in doing research about >where I want to go with my consulting practice, I look to the high tech >companies and ask why not?

Huh … that’s one way to do it! Strictly speaking, your niche is precisely where the ‘ability x need factor’ is greatest (‘ability’ being your ability – based on experience, know-how, insight etc. – to provide a particular product or service-based solution to a problem; ‘need’ being an unfulfilled customer need / problem, unfulfilled demand etc.). >The answer I most frequently get is that I do not have high tech experience. >My comeback is that marketing, done properly, cuts across all industries. … >Software is something now sold no differently than a can of coffee.

Don’t you believe it! Your argument is the ‘technocratic’ one, namely that if you have a (‘technical’, ‘theoretical’ or ‘in-principle’) understanding of a particular problem (i.e. ‘marketing’), then the context in which the solution is provided is largely immaterial. From the (undisputed) fact that the basic principles of marketing apply to all industries alike does not follow that a marketing consultant will not greatly benefit from specialisation (most commonly a specialisation by ‘industry’) and industry experience (hence lack of such experience makes you less effective!). As someone who started off as a generalist and is now a specialist (see my sig below), I know what I am talking about! Your ‘comeback’ is therefore not so much that industry experience does not matter, but that you appear to have a technology background / some software marketing experience already: >I teach marketing to MBA students in a Technology Management program; I did >work for a former student who was trying make a bigger splash at Comdex.

R E Lutz International Marketing & Strategy Consultant to the IT and Telecoms Industry London, UK http://members.aol.com/R2Lutz Tel:  +44 (0)171 229 3958   –   Fax: +44 (0)171 221 4539   –   Email:

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I agree that the principles of marketing are universal and I have often said that it doesn’t matter if you’re selling battleship parts or panty hose.  On the other hand, my experience for the past few years has been in financial services, a field that was completely new to me.  That shouldn’t have mattered, but it sure did.  What I have learned is that the application of marketing principles can be tricky and the decision making processes are quite different than I had dealt with at manufacturing companies.  Oddly, decisions seem to have a larger emotional component and a smaller fact component than in product marketing.  You would think just the opposite, since financial transactions by their very nature are quantifiable, but the thought of money itself automatically generates a large amount of emotion. At my earliest opportunity I am high-tailing it back to manufacturing where life is a lot simpler and I am more at home. I have had a similar experience in applying for jobs at high-tech companies. The prejudice is so strong that I now ignore job ads for these companies unless they state that high-tech experience is not necessary.  By high-tech I mean computer hardware/software, telecommunications, etc.   A good marketing person will realize that it’s a lot easier and cheaper to find a market that likes what you have to offer than to try to convince a market that does not like what you have to offer to start liking it. Charles J. Dudek, President Southeastern Commercial Mortgage Corporation 4320 Worthington Circle Palm Harbor FL  34685-1154 813/785-9927 FAX 784-6580 http://home.earthlink.net/~cdudek – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >As an experienced marketer with over 15 years of practical, hands-on time in >the world of marketing, I’d like to ask for input on something. I am having one >heck of a time cracking into the world of high tech marketing. >My background is consumer packaged goods, and for the past few years I have >been consulting in various other industries. However, in doing research about >where I want to go with my consulting practice, I look to the high tech >companies and ask why not? >The answer I most frequently get is that I do not have high tech experience. My >comeback is that marketing, done properly, cuts across all industries. I teach >marketing to MBA students in a Technology Management program; I did work for a >former student who was trying make a bigger splash at Comdex. Software is >something now sold no differently than a can of coffee. >If anyone has any thoughts, I would appreciate hearing back. >Ken Keller

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> Software is something now sold no differently than a can of coffee.

Not the way I’ve been selling mine for the past twenty years. I don’t know where you got that idea. Have you ever thought about working on commission to get started? If you’re so sure of your marketing abilities, then it should be a snap for you. Regards, ScotSystems Inc. – http://www.scotsystems.com RVForumDot Com – http://www.rvforum.com AS/400 Support Forum – http://www.scotsystems.com/as400_os400.html 601 638-6989 Voice 601 631-0165 Fax 800 698-0462 Pager ICQ Address: 2783173 N32 24.753 W90 46.328  

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[...] >The answer I most frequently get is that I do not have high tech experience. >My comeback is that marketing, done properly, cuts across all industries.

[...] I agree and disagree — many of the basic concepts of marketing do apply regardless of the industry or media used, but certain industries (and this is not limited to high tech) offer certain opportunities that should be used and certain pitfalls to be avoided. Perhaps if you need to prove your experience (e.g., with a portfolio), do a few jobs at a lower-than-normal rate for those who might not be able to afford your regular rate.  This gives them something and gives you something too — proof for others that you can do it. S. Whitmore Want Critical How-to Information for Marketing Electronically? Get CHIME!  http://www.uninova.com/chime.html

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Hello Ken, Regis McKenna has the distinction of being one of the top marketing gurus in the field of high tech marketing. You might consider reading his book, it might give you some insights. I can agree with your observation "high tech" marketing is in essence marketing. There is however much to be learned that is specific to the field of high tech. A parallel in the field of graphic design comes to mind: you can teach a competent graphic designer to use computer tools more readily than to teach a computer tool user to master the art of graphic design. One aspect of marketing is to communicate the essence of a thought or concept in the "lingo" of the target audience. This does require mastering some of the knowledge and vocabulary unique to that industry. You mention "not enough high tech experience" as a frequent reason for not engaging your firm. Me thinks this is more of a symptom than the true reason. I would need to better understand the specific context(s) before I could suggest possibly reasons and remedies. I also suggest losing the " … sold no differently than a can of coffee" comment. Most clients regardless of industry will often mention the uniqueness of their particular situation. The flavor of your post comes across as "rigid", "tired" and "old". I hope you take this in the positive sense I mean to convey it. You defend your expertise by advertising your 15 years of experience and the fact you teach marketing to MBA students. Why is this of any relevance in today’s world of "one-on-one" marketing and the Internet age? My "gut" reaction is you could do with an identity makeover and maybe an injection of "professional paranoia" which helps exude an aura of "cutting edge" expertise. As I mentioned earlier in this post, my comments should be taken within the framework of the minimal posted information. J.P. Solyom KS Business Development

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As an experienced marketer with over 15 years of practical, hands-on time in the world of marketing, I’d like to ask for input on something. I am having one heck of a time cracking into the world of high tech marketing. My background is consumer packaged goods, and for the past few years I have been consulting in various other industries. However, in doing research about where I want to go with my consulting practice, I look to the high tech companies and ask why not? The answer I most frequently get is that I do not have high tech experience. My comeback is that marketing, done properly, cuts across all industries. I teach marketing to MBA students in a Technology Management program; I did work for a former student who was trying make a bigger splash at Comdex. Software is something now sold no differently than a can of coffee. If anyone has any thoughts, I would appreciate hearing back. Ken Keller

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       Could you help me to solve my question?         1.    Service marketing is different from product marketing.  What do                 you see as the major elements in the service mix of a fast food                 outlet?         2.    Discuss the possible basis for segmentation of the fast food markets.         3.    Critically evaluate KFC’s current marketing strategy.                 KFC – Kentucky Fried Chicken         Thank you for your help!

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Hmmm. >        Could you help me to solve my question?

<snip> Some smart marketing student might want to evaluate the potential of a homework by email consulting business. Of course, any *really* intelligent student is going to want to do his/her own work. I differentiate between this post and the one posted earlier by Joseph L. Moore who asked: "Could anyone suggest some good references (on the web or in hardcopy) to aid me in this.  I’m at a loss and the instructor has no experience with the net." because Joseph is willing to do his own work.  So I was willing to send him some info on how to get started looking for resources. There are a lot of fine resources available on the net, including links to some major libraries and many government documents. Yahoo, for example, has some excellent business resources.  An excellent starting point for industry analysis can be found at; http://biz.yahoo.com/research/indgrp/retail_restrnts.html There is some valuable information that can be found by delving into required government reports, such as Tricon’s 10-K. Cindy Nemeth-Johannes Chief Curmudgeon Venture Consulting/Colorado

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<<  Could you help me to solve my question? 1.    Service marketing is different from product marketing. What do  you see as the major elements in the service mix of a fast food outlet? 2.    Discuss the possible basis for segmentation of the fast food markets. 3.    Critically evaluate KFC’s current marketing strategy.        KFC – Kentucky Fried Chicken >> Regarding #3, I didn’t know KFC even HAS a marketing strategy. Thus, I think you should reply that #3 is not a fair question.     You can get #1 with a little thought. What service elements do YOU and your friends care about at fast-food restaurants – cleanliness of store, friendliness of staff, accuracy of order, etc.? For #2, most people segment by demographics, then try to figure out how to appeal to different groups. For something new, do this in reverse. Start by asking, What are the most important elements of a fast-food experience for different types of people? Some care primarily about price, some about nutrition, some about overall product quality, etc. Then try to identify ways to reach the "low-fat" segment with a nutritional message, or the "product quality" segment with a quality message, etc. Jon DeLuca Scientific Business Consulting

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Raman: Congratulations on your decision to set up a web site for your consulting business.  I recently did the exact same thing (December of 1996).  I took a lot of time in preparing the page to accomplish certain things.  In answer to your questions: >- how well has your site performed in generating *online* client >relationships?

The site is relatively new, yet, I did receive two "unsolicited" on-line requests for consultation.  Both of these requests, however, have come from my geographic area.  I say "unsolicited" because I did send an invitation postcard to 260 different businesses to invite them to view my site.   >- how do you use the site for existing clients who have ‘net access >(ie:  I’ve heard of consultants who have a "virtual office" through >which clients can access, with password, the status of ongoing projects)

I currently do not use the site in this manner. If anything, those clients who have e-mail can respond and inquire via e-mail.  My strategy did not involve customer service elements to my web page, rather it was more of a marketing/sales through informative company information. >- if you have an e-mail link on the site, what is the level of requests >you get for free advice?

I have actually incorporated a Needs Assessment Questionnaire (on-line questionnaire) wereby a person responding to the questionnaire will be entitled to receive a free, no obligation 1/2 hour telephone consultation.  It is here that I determine needs, and in the phone call, I determine specifics of what they are looking for.  I believe that this step discourages many of those just seeking "free advice." I would be interested in sharing in your findings to these specific questions.  Good luck with your research and your web page as well. Sincerely, — Tom Smigielski Marketing Consultant Enhanced Images, Inc. http://www.icubed.com/webrealm/ei/ (508) 641-4918

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>- how well has your site performed in generating *online* client >relationships?

Web sites are wonderful at fostering online relationships, however they will not do it alone. You need to attract people there initially. Your site should function in two manners. One, is to build a relationship with the prospect – make it a place that they come to again and again. Two, use your site as a tool to close the sale and gain a new client. A web site is roughly equivelant to a great shop in a ghost town. It is up to you to revitalize and draw traffic to it. Given your area of expertise "entrepreneurial services", you will want to create a resource that appeals to those looking to get involved with their own business. You will find that the majority of people will come to your site because of what you are offering as a resource, not because of what you offer as a service. Be sure that while they are using the resource, you are moving the prospect towards the service-it will be your target market (if the resource if prepared correctly). Those coming directly for the service are likely to be prompted by contributions you make in mailing lists, newgroups, and the like. >- if you have an e-mail link on the site, what is the level of requests >you get for free advice?

Free advice, if you are targeting your market right, will be a large draw. Provided that you have a good offer and have executed if right, an average number is around 4-6% that will request some type of information from you – if you make it easy and valuable for them. That number will increase as you add more specific things to request. NOTE: the 4-6% is from total people that visit your site. Not impressions or hits. Michael A. Wineke  |  President, Internet Marketing Solutions We GUARANTEE results for our clients. High-end design, online marketing & public relations, and the technical saavy to back it up.

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Because a similar inquiry did not seem to appeal to readers of a very applicable newsgroup, I’m gonna try here! In planning for a web site this year (please, no solicitations – I have a developer), I am researching how well web sites have performed for independent consultants or small consulting firms. Specific questions: – how well has your site performed in generating *online* client relationships? – how do you use the site for existing clients who have ‘net access (ie:  I’ve heard of consultants who have a "virtual office" through which clients can access, with password, the status of ongoing projects) – if you have an e-mail link on the site, what is the level of requests you get for free advice? Thanks to all! Raman Chadha Explorit Entrepreneurial Services Business planning, coaching, and marketing to help entrepreneurs build their ventures and achieve their goals.

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