Business History Books » Business Consultant » Online Marketing – ways to supplement web sites
Online Marketing – ways to supplement web sites
Question:
> Oops! Guess I have to get used to a moderated group – I usually don’t read > my own postings! <grin> JG, your comments are correct – there are …
Sometimes, when in a hurry, it’s much easier for me to include my personal comments, rather than post separately. > time were somewhere in between "country crafts" and "gallery-quality." I > still don’t know what the right market for them would have been. Maybe > tourist gift shops? It’s hard to say. > However, I ended up making the decision to try to market my designs instead.
Well don’t give up on selling your bead products just yet. It just sounds like your target market is wrong and your reach. I don’t know what your target market is; blue haired ladies or Gen X, but rather than produce what *you* like, have you researched what your target market wants? Have you done any focus groups? Get feedback from customers? You mentioned between "country crafts" and "gallery-quality" Perhaps it’s a question of redoing the packaging? Perhaps packaging for different markets? Don’t know Mary. My "bead" knowledge just never developed 
> As always, in any business decision, there are a lot of pros and cons to > consider, and the two I mentioned above were only part of the equation. > The few pieces that I did sell took a lot of time to make, and I had to > make lots and lots of the same item. My artistic enjoyment, which is what > got me started in this business, was being drowned in a sea of boring > repetition.
Oh, dear, boring repetition. When one makes money, one tends to overlook the boring repetition. Perhaps you could look to streamline the process? > Also, there were a lot of other people doing basically the same > type of product, resulting in a type of market saturation.
See about creating something different. > So, I decided to change my focus to something that wasn’t as physically > demanding, and that allowed me to truly be creative. It also allows me to > do something with my writing background and computer skills. Plus, I can > still spend some time on the side working on truly unique gallery-quality > pieces and then do some work to market them to galleries and gift shops, if > I want.
Good for you! > I’m also trying to get started teaching the technique I’ve developed, which > is a whole other marketing issue. (How do you market yourself or your skills > rather than a product?)
You market "yourself" as a PRODUCT. You need to create an "expert presence". Online, participate more in the bead newsgroups, lists. Once you have your web site up, provide helpful advice without giving away the kitchen sink. Offline, right articles for bead magazines, Organize a bead seminar at your community center. See about getting paid something to give a bead class at senior citizen centers. Take out an ad in the local paper, ad at the community center, elsewhere offering classes in your home. Provide for a introduction class, present bead product slides, samples, a welcome fact package that could include article on bead working as being therapeutic, whatever. For selling your products, have you considered the possibility of holding a *joint party* (haha, not that kind), Depending on your target market, identify someone in your area that sells Tuperware, Lingerie, MaryKay, costume jewelry etc. and team up. > Now you’ve probably heard more than you wanted to… ;->
Never know, Mary. I just may replace my knitting with beading, but I’ll ask my therapist first <g> — John Gerits
Response:
Mary Many thanks for sharing your views so honestly and so clearly defined. For me it was quite an education. Your reasoning seems to be second to none. I don’t know what you do for a living but I wish you luck for many, many years to come. I think your approach, or let’s call it ‘the secret of success’, can be nicely summarized by what you said: | … a very sensible apprentice … I think the above phrase hides an absolutely sharp sense of logic or reasoning. It looks so innocent but I think in reality it would put Mr Spock to shame. So, my understanding is in support of your approach, which means: a genuine interest in the product or the idea backed up by what you refer to as simply a ’sensible’ attitude. To my understanding this means a total, almost ruthless, commitment to seeing the reality, the real facts as they occur. I very much hope that you will announce your web page here, and by email to me, of course should you decide to use the web at all. I wonder how many people have been following this thread? May be just us two plus John – but he has no choice anyway :^) :^) :^) Take care Archie Gatekeeper: ‘My friend Archie, who lives here, is a good man. To speak with him you will need to know that, [com uk arde dear co demon net] is [T E C H D O G]. All good people can find archie at C.O.D.E’
Response:
> Mary J, don’t mind me, I’m just listening. > Every time I’m out of the room, getting a cup of coffee, you > finish the story. So, what happened then?!
<grin> Isn’t that the essence of true marketing> Keep them coming back for maore, anticipating the next innovation/product? Maybe I’m better at this that I thought! ;-> > Surely you’re not going to stop talking now. So > apart from beading, designing patterns, market research, > marketing planning, writing, computing and now trying > to teach, what else have you got planned?
I think that about covers it. My long range plan/fantasy is to be able to generate enough income from this to be able to quit my "day job" and become a true entrepreneur, but I think that’s a *long* way down the road! > So, tell me what does a smart > person see that others don’t? Let me ask you another way. > Is there a method that a fool like me can use today to reach > the same conclusions that you have reached? There is a lot > of talk about market research, knowing your customers, > demand analysis, product life cycle and so on. Do these > things mean anything to you? How do *you* understand > them?
For me, it was the results of a LOT of introspection, and immersing myself in beading. I subscribed to beading magazines, attended a bead workshop led by a very successful beader, subscribed to bead newsgroups on the Net, and also to some beading listserves. Then I read, read, read what everyone was saying. I guess for me that’s the essence of market research – immersing myself in the market I’m trying to break into. I’ve also been known to read magazines such as Inc and Home Business to see what other entrepreneurs are doing. And then of course, I started reading this newsgroup to try and learn more about that side of business. For the past year, I haven’t done any craft shows, and haven’t generated any income (from my home business.) I decided if I was going to be successful in the new venture, I had to do my homework first and not just jump in without testing the waters. That was my mistake when I tried selling my crafts direct. I didn’t check out craft shows to see what sold and what didn’t, and I found out the hard way that my stuff didn’t. As far as all the marketing terms go, I have no clue what they mean. I never took any marketing or business classes in college. I’ve always thought that all the market analysis in the world won’t do you any good. You won’t know if your product will sell until you actually go out and try to sell it! > What is the secret of success?
I’ll let you know when I’ve acheived it! I think that’s another trait of a successful entrepreneur – keep trying when you fail, ’cause the next idea might be the winner. I tried marketing my handmade products and was miserably unsuccessful. I haven’t acheived success yet with my newest ideas, but I’m hopeful. Of course, I was very enthusiastic and hopeful about the previous idea as well. Enthusiasm is important. You’ll never be able to sell anything if you can’t generate enthusiasm in the buyer, and often, enthusiasm in the salesman translates itself to the customer. Especially in the crafts arena. I don’t think there really is a "secret for success." There are so many books and magazines out there that promise to deliver the secret to becoming successful, but if there really was such a thing, a lot more people would be successful! I’ve read so many articles that could basically be boiled down to "Keep trying different ideas/techniques until you find something that works. Then use it." Every person is different. What might be a successful marketing technique to use on one person won’t work for everyone. If it did, marketing folks wouldn’t have to keep coming up with new ways to market stuff! > I’ve talked too much. *You* are the teacher.
Well, I hope to be, at least for beading, but as far as marketing goes, I’m still just an apprentice. I may be a very sensible apprentice, but still… ;-> I’ll consider teaching marketing when I start having success with it! (Yes I’ve received a good response to my first marketing effort, but no one has actually bought the product yet!) > I’m going for my second cup now, please don’t start without > me.
Sorry, the lecture will not stop if you leave the room. You’ll just have to get the class notes from someone else. ;-> ;-> Mary J. Winters-Meyer The Beading Banshee Handcrafted Bead Art
Response:
>The American buying public has been conditioned against purchasing quality >handmade crafts because a) lesser quality items made overseas are being sold >in stores at prices American craftsmen can’t match and b) for some of the >more "traditional" crafts, they can go to the nearest craft store and buy a >kit to make the same item or they know someone who will make it for them for >only the cost of materials. > [JG comments: I don't know what craft shows or market it draws around the > Urbana-Champaign area, but I can tell you, the two shows I always go to > when home (Scottsdale, AZ); Fountain Hills and Tempe (ASU) are very > successful for many of the vendors, yet the imports can be found at the > local Target and the kits at a number of craft stores. It might be a > question of the wrong target market.
Oops! Guess I have to get used to a moderated group - I usually don't read my own postings! <grin> JG, your comments are correct - there are successful vendors in the local craft shows. As you said, it wasn't the right market for my product. I thought about going farther afield, perhaps trying shows in Chicago or St. Louis, or marketing to galleries and gift shops. However, my designs at the time were somewhere in between "country crafts" and "gallery-quality." I still don't know what the right market for them would have been. Maybe tourist gift shops? It's hard to say. However, I ended up making the decision to try to market my designs instead. As always, in any business decision, there are a lot of pros and cons to consider, and the two I mentioned above were only part of the equation. The few pieces that I did sell took a lot of time to make, and I had to make lots and lots of the same item. My artistic enjoyment, which is what got me started in this business, was being drowned in a sea of boring repetition. I also was recently diagnosed with a chronic illness which makes doing shows difficult - it's surprising how physically demanding a show can really be. Also, there were a lot of other people doing basically the same type of product, resulting in a type of market saturation. On the other hand, for the number of people that seem to be beading, there are very few beading patterns or books. The newsgroups related to beading which I read constantly have posts asking where to get more patterns. So, I decided to change my focus to something that wasn't as physically demanding, and that allowed me to truly be creative. It also allows me to do something with my writing background and computer skills. Plus, I can still spend some time on the side working on truly unique gallery-quality pieces and then do some work to market them to galleries and gift shops, if I want. I'm also trying to get started teaching the technique I've developed, which is a whole other marketing issue. (How do you market yourself or your skills rather than a product?) Now you've probably heard more than you wanted to... ;-> Mary J. Winters-Meyer The Beading Banshee Handcrafted Bead Art
Response:
>Curious, Mary. In another post you mention having done flea markets and >craft shows for a number of years. thus you *must* have been selling and >possibly making a profit, no? And now, what, no sales? no growth? ????
Well, I was at the time not selling beadwork, plus my net profit for the year was on the order of $500 TOTAL. I kept plugging at it thinking that eventually sales would increase. After all, most businesses have trouble showing a profit in the first years of business, right? I can be as stubborn about accepting failure as the next person, after all, but I finally had to face the fact that my product was not working in the market I was aiming at. >What does it tell you if you hear people saying; 'someone else could make >them' or 'make it themselves'?
The American buying public has been conditioned against purchasing quality handmade crafts because a) lesser quality items made overseas are being sold in stores at prices American craftsmen can't match and b) for some of the more "traditional" crafts, they can go to the nearest craft store and buy a kit to make the same item or they know someone who will make it for them for only the cost of materials. [JG comments: I don't know what craft shows or market it draws around the Urbana-Champaign area, but I can tell you, the two shows I always go to when home (Scottsdale, AZ); Fountain Hills and Tempe (ASU) are very successful for many of the vendors, yet the imports can be found at the local Target and the kits at a number of craft stores. It might be a question of the wrong target market. If your products are of better quality and priced higher, you need to position other than like your competition and imports. Develop a uniqueness, setting it apart from the rest, create the perception. I have a friend that does Southwest/western crafts (high priced). She did the local shows but sales weren't there. She went to various stores and that's working for her. I suggested defining her target market really tightly. The result was her target market could be found at resorts and subscribe to various upscale publications as well as a good chunk being snowbirds. From that, we outlined a simple plan. She went around to the various upscale resorts, ran small ads in publications, had her company featured, did DM to the snowbirds. She is so busy now; supplying resort shops and mail order. Next, the web ] >Your above three paragraphs is the essence of IMHO, email marketing done >properly. And the response rate is the proof.
Thank you! >My opinion, if you send them a follow up with the personal touch as you >have, it still may be considered spam/UCE, it’s just too touchy of a >situation. My thought would be to get even more personal (means a bit more >research but the ones that didn’t reply could be big fish potential). In >your follow up, you could offer them a copy of the bead magazine if they >don’t subscribe already.
<lots of good advice snipped for space> >Sure, it cheaper to follow up via the Net, but I still find the phone the >second best means to starting a relationship… First is face_to_face.
Thanks for the info. I’ll look into a more personal follow-up, as like you, I have some serious reservations about a second e-mail to non-respondents. You put forth some good ideas, and I’ll have to think about how I can apply them to this situation. Thanks again! Mary J. Winters-Meyer The Beading Banshee Handcrafted Bead Art
Response:
Mary J, don’t mind me, I’m just listening. Every time I’m out of the room, getting a cup of coffee, you finish the story. So, what happened then?! Surely you’re not going to stop talking now. So apart from beading, designing patterns, market research, marketing planning, writing, computing and now trying to teach, what else have you got planned? I have a feeling that you really have not told me anything. It all sounds so simple. You know, effortless. And yet they all seem to occur in a logical manner. I don’t know a thing about beads. But, there must be hundreds of people just looking at exactly the same things that you do, every day. I know for sure that you are smart. So, tell me what does a smart person see that others don’t? Let me ask you another way. Is there a method that a fool like me can use today to reach the same conclusions that you have reached? There is a lot of talk about market research, knowing your customers, demand analysis, product life cycle and so on. Do these things mean anything to you? How do *you* understand them? I come across a lot of explanations, discussions and books. But, I feel that something is missing from all of them. I don’t know the answer. What is the secret of success? I’ve talked too much. *You* are the teacher. I’m going for my second cup now, please don’t start without me. :^) :^) :^) :^) :^) Regards Archie Gatekeeper: ‘My friend Archie, who lives here, is a good man. To speak with him you will need to know that, [com uk arde dear co demon net] is [T E C H D O G]. All good people can find archie at C.O.D.E’
Response:
Hi Mary, I am a business student at the University of Manitoba. I was very impressed with your idea. Many companies just set up a Web site and expect that companies to find them. Your proactive approach was great and very cost effective. I think that you should follow up with the companies that you have not heard from. You can highlight the fact that your concept is catching on with other vendors. With the vendors that replyed negatively, maybe you can approach them with a new concept or the same concept presented in a different way. Perhaps you can use the responses that they gave you to develop your business and you may be able to meet their needs better. Best of Luck Misty Blake-Knox University Of Manitoba
Response:
> Mary J, why are you asking us?! > Up to now you’ve shown the clearest thinking I’ve seen. > Although you make it sound so easy, I bet it wasn’t all that > straight forward. What I’m saying is that *I* should be > asking *your* opinion.
Well, it did take me a couple days of web browsing to identify the original list. Also, I have been participating in various bead-related newsgroups and mailing lists for quite some time, which made me aware that there actually was a market segment that could be reached through the Internet. (It actually surprised me when I realized how strong of a presence there was for beaders on the Net!) From there, it was simply a matter of being polite and letting people know what I had to offer. > So, Mary J, tell me, what do you think should be done now?
Well, thanks for the compliments, but I *am* still a relative newcomer to the marketing arena. I do know what I dislike to see in my own mailbox regarding unsolicited e-mail, and I tried to avoid doing the same to other businesses. I think John Gerits’s suggestions to do a more personal marketing effort targeted at the non-respondents are worth trying. I also think another research effort to identify vendors that I might have missed the first time around would be worth it as well. And I intend to consider more traditional marketing methods such as DM or magazine ads. However, I always welcome other opinions that might bring out something that I might have overlooked! Mary J. Winters-Meyer The Beading Banshee Handcrafted Bead Art
Response:
>One other thing – when I sent out the e-mails, I sent them out as >individual letters, not as a single form letter sent to multiple >addresses. Each one had the vendor’s name in the salutation, >and although I had a form letter that I started with, I altered it >depending on things I saw on their web page, or by adding a >small "hi there!" paragraph for vendors that I knew. >Sure, it took a little longer, but a lot of people, businesses >included, have their filters set to block messages sent to multiple >addresses.
I also use this technique and have found that I get a much higher response rate when I add the personal comments, i.e. "I really liked your logo, or MIDI," whatever was unique about their site. >I think many people don’t consider the idea of such an approach >to using e-mail in conjunction with a website, probably because >of the large amount of SPAM and its negative connotations. >However, I think with appropriate market research prior to >sending the e-mail, it could be a very useful marketing tool.
I agree! I regularly receive a 20% response on my e-mail. (My target group is not quite as specific as yours.:-) >The one thing I’m not sure of is if I should send a follow-up >e-mail to those vendors that didn’t respond. In traditional Direct >Marketing mailings, follow-up mailing are expected, but online, >that approach can easily be seen as SPAM.
I have found that a traditional mail follow-up is quite effective with folks who didn’t respond to your e-mail. I use the "Haven’t heard from you, but I didn’t want you to miss out on this great opportunity" approach. I’ve found that my credibility increases with these prospects. It helps to overcome the skepticism some folks have about Internet offers. >Since I didn’t have a web site yet when the first mailing went out, >should I maybe send a quick note saying that while I didn’t >receive a response from my first note, I thought they might still >be interested in seeing the web site now that it was available?
I would definately send a site announcement. I would also consider sending traditional mail announcements to bolster your credibility. You might want to offer a mailing list to notify these prospective clients of changes to your site, i.e. new patterns, etc. We must remember that web site promotion must be incorporated into all of our off-line efforts as well! Be sure to get that URL on your letterhead, biz cards, etc! Happy Beading! LMD Enterprises… your link to the world Lauren Denissen, Internet Marketing Consultant Specializing in traffic generation through personalized design and promotion. Visit our site at http://www.lmdenterprises.com
Response:
Mary J, why are you asking us?! Up to now you’ve shown the clearest thinking I’ve seen. Although you make it sound so easy, I bet it wasn’t all that straight forward. What I’m saying is that *I* should be asking *your* opinion. So, Mary J, tell me, what do you think should be done now? Best wishes Archie Gatekeeper: ‘My friend Archie, who lives here, is a good man. To speak with him you will need to know that, [com uk arde dear co demon net] is [T E C H D O G]. All good people can find archie at C.O.D.E’
Response:
> After following the "Online Marketing" thread for some time, I was surprised > to see that no one had mentioned other online marketing techniques besides > setting up a web site and getting it listed on all the search engines.
Yes, the subject header is deceiving as all involved so far have focused the discussion on web site itself. Seems, all of us were lazy to change the subject header to "What a Wonderful Website We Weave" > As an example, I’ll relate my current > progress in getting my own web site "off the ground." > Some history: After unsuccessfully trying to sell finished beadwork at local > craft shows, I decided to change tactics. Many of the people stopping to > look at my work could be overheard mentioning that they knew someone who > would make the same thing for them, or even that they could make it > themselves. I decided that if people were going to try and make my designs > themselves, I’d let them pay me for the priveledge! ;->
Curious, Mary. In another post you mention having done flea markets and craft shows for a number of years. thus you *must* have been selling and possibly making a profit, no? And now, what, no sales? no growth? ???? What does it tell you if you hear people saying; ’someone else could make them’ or ‘make it themselves’? > Anyway, I’m having a new bead technique published in a beading magazine. > When the issue with my article hits the news stands, I intend to have a set > of designs using the technique ready to sell to bead shops. In order to get > a feel for the interest in the idea, and as a marketing tool designed to > create anticipation for my product, I began to implement the following > marketing plan.
Well done! Refreshing to hear your approach. [snip] > I don’t think I would have gotten as good of a response if I had simply > sent e-mail to every bead vendor on the net, without checking them out to > see if they sold patterns. (I might have even generated some "bad press"!) > One other thing – when I sent out the e-mails, I sent them out as individual > letters, not as a single form letter sent to multiple addresses. Each one > had the vendor’s name in the salutation, and although I had a form letter > that I started with, I altered it depending on things I saw on their web > page, or by adding a small "hi there!" paragraph for vendors that I knew. > Sure, it took a little longer, but a lot of people, businesses included, > have their filters set to block messages sent to multiple addresses. > I think many people don’t consider the idea of such an approach to using > e-mail in conjunction with a website, probably because of the large amount > of SPAM and its negative connotations. However, I think with appropriate > market research prior to sending the e-mail, it could be a very useful > marketing tool.
Your above three paragraphs is the essence of IMHO, email marketing done properly. And the response rate is the proof. > The one thing I’m not sure of is if I should send a follow-up e-mail to > those vendors that didn’t respond. In traditional Direct Marketing mailings, > follow-up mailing are expected, but online, that approach can easily be seen > as SPAM. > Does anyone have any opinions on this? Should I send another copy of the > survey out? Should a send another e-mail, but with different information? > Since I didn’t have a web site yet when the first mailing went out, should I > maybe send a quick note saying that while I didn’t receive a response from > my first note, I thought they might still be interested in seeing the web > site now that it was available?
My opinion, if you send them a follow up with the personal touch as you have, it still may be considered spam/UCE, it’s just too touchy of a situation. My thought would be to get even more personal (means a bit more research but the ones that didn’t reply could be big fish potential). In your follow up, you could offer them a copy of the bead magazine if they don’t subscribe already. The other possibility; you’ve got their snail mail info, send them a piece, possibly offering the magazine (ahead of your snail mail shot). Maybe offer a free design? (don’t know a thing about beads, just tossing out an idea). For many, email or DM shots repeated is the easy road since *many* will not follow up, merely keep doing mailings until, in hope that the prospect will make contact. Get on the phone, sell yourself, follow up! There are those that do DM shots with phone follow up. What’s different about the Net? If you do responsible, proper email marketing as you have done, instead of thinking about following up with another email, follow up with the phone. (of course, it’s no cost to reach international prospective customers via the Net, but it’s a personal question whether one wants international vendors and makes the international (phone) call.) Sure, it cheaper to follow up via the Net, but I still find the phone the second best means to starting a relationship… First is face_to_face. — John Gerits
Response:
After following the "Online Marketing" thread for some time, I was surprised to see that no one had mentioned other online marketing techniques besides setting up a web site and getting it listed on all the search engines. All of the other marketing techniques used to advertise the web site have been traditional, off-line techniques. As an example, I’ll relate my current progress in getting my own web site "off the ground." Some history: After unsuccessfully trying to sell finished beadwork at local craft shows, I decided to change tactics. Many of the people stopping to look at my work could be overheard mentioning that they knew someone who would make the same thing for them, or even that they could make it themselves. I decided that if people were going to try and make my designs themselves, I’d let them pay me for the priveledge! ;-> Anyway, I’m having a new bead technique published in a beading magazine. When the issue with my article hits the news stands, I intend to have a set of designs using the technique ready to sell to bead shops. In order to get a feel for the interest in the idea, and as a marketing tool designed to create anticipation for my product, I began to implement the following marketing plan. 1) Search the web for bead stores that have an online presence, and check out their web sites to see if they sell bead patterns/books. (market research!) 2) Design and send out a brief e-mail survey to those vendors that were identified in #1. The survey explained that the new technique I designed was going to be published and that I would have 5-6 designs ready for sale at the time the magazine was published. It asked if the vendor was interested in new designs, and informed them that I would be creating a web page that would have pictures of the designs. (The first e-mail was sent to approx. 30 vendors) 3)Upon receiving a positive response, reply with a quick note giving an approximate time until the first design was scanned in and available, and confirming that they would be placed on my list of interested vendors so that I could send them the URL of the site as soon as it was ready. 4) Upon receiving a negative response, reply with a quick note thanking them for replying. (Keep up friendly relations in case of later interest.) 5) Get the website running. After reading about the various service providers offering free web sites for businesses, I decided to go with Free Yellow. Sure, I have to live with an ad banner at the bottom of my pages, but until I can generate more income, the free site will have to serve. In a year or so, I will probably pick another service provider, since I will most likely want to do some of my own CGI scripting, which the free sites don’t allow. 6) Prepare a larger mailing (both e-mail and traditional mail) as I get closer to the pulishing date (Feb) and after I have the web site with pictures up and ready. The results have been amazingly successful. Out of the original 30 vendors, more than half have responded, and all but 2 of them were positive. (Those 2 I had misidentified – they did not sell patterns.) Considering the response from normal unsolicited mail is MUCH less that 50%, I was pleased with the results. However, I don’t think I would have gotten as good of a response if I had simply sent e-mail to every bead vendor on the net, without checking them out to see if they sold patterns. (I might have even generated some "bad press"!) One other thing – when I sent out the e-mails, I sent them out as individual letters, not as a single form letter sent to multiple addresses. Each one had the vendor’s name in the salutation, and although I had a form letter that I started with, I altered it depending on things I saw on their web page, or by adding a small "hi there!" paragraph for vendors that I knew. Sure, it took a little longer, but a lot of people, businesses included, have their filters set to block messages sent to multiple addresses. I think many people don’t consider the idea of such an approach to using e-mail in conjunction with a website, probably because of the large amount of SPAM and its negative connotations. However, I think with appropriate market research prior to sending the e-mail, it could be a very useful marketing tool. The one thing I’m not sure of is if I should send a follow-up e-mail to those vendors that didn’t respond. In traditional Direct Marketing mailings, follow-up mailing are expected, but online, that approach can easily be seen as SPAM. Does anyone have any opinions on this? Should I send another copy of the survey out? Should a send another e-mail, but with different information? Since I didn’t have a web site yet when the first mailing went out, should I maybe send a quick note saying that while I didn’t receive a response from my first note, I thought they might still be interested in seeing the web site now that it was available? Thanks for listening! Mary J. Winters-Meyer The Beading Banshee Handcrafted Bead Art