Business History Books » Business Consultant » Marketing Plan Help
Marketing Plan Help
Question:
>Don’t recommend a URL as if it’s someone else’s >Don’t go into a big promotional speak as if you’re talking about >someone else’s marketing service, when in fact it is your own.
IMNSHO, my reply was a direct response to the gentleman’s request (for marketing resources to develop marketing plans—which is exactly what we do). By deleting the URL, you effectively interferred with the requested transfer of information. Obviously, you are either not in business or have a very anal attitude about promoting your own business to someone who is actually in your market. I suggest you cut the Big Brother speak and cut out your holier-than-thou (I’m gonna save this newsgroup) crap. I appreciate the desire to rid the planet of spam, but I think you are taking things a bit too far and have become Spam-phobic. If it was clear to you that I was promoting my business, then how can you complain that I was hiding anything–as if you "caught me!" Grow up. If I wasn’t clear about the fact that I was promoting myself, then how are you so sure I was promoting myself? Obviously, it was clear, unless you possess some extra-sensory powers of detection that no one else has–which may be why you are the moderator. And what is wrong with self-promotion? Is this alt.humility.vow.of.silence or mbmm? When the rare opportunity comes that you do find one person out of the 50 million people on the Internet that is in your market, then why not market yourself–to their benefit and yours? If you have a problem with that, then YOU have a problem. I am not spamming or cross-posting or replying to every article with stealth-promote tactics like many others on this group. If you don’t expect that marketing consultants are going to promote themselves in a marketing newsgroup, then you need to be replaced. That is the price to pay for the "Free Samples" of their advice that you and everyone else on this NG are benefitting from. I provided valuable information, and promoted myself justly–I contributed and I expect to get something for it. Otherwise, the costs of contributing and helping others solve their problems outweighs the benefits, and I am not running a non-profit organization. There is no real "serious" marketing question that can honestly be answered within the back-and-forth limitations of this newsgroup, and anyone who says otherwise is a fool or a cheater. You get guys who want simplified shoot-from-the-hip answers to complex questions so they can save the trip to the marketing Dr’s office. Anyone who blatantly provides such cheap and easy answers without going through the discipline of asking the relevant questions and properly evaluating the unique circumstances surrounding the question is doing a great disservice to the members of this group. As a moderator you should practice staying out of the way and learning how to facilitate exchanges and help people get their needs met–that is what marketing is all about. I hope you’ve learned something. By the way, are you a college student?
Response:
Well written Paul. I was serching for information on the structure of an Internet Marketing Seminar and visited the URL quoted…. not only was the spot not California (even an Aussie 12,000 miles away knows that geography..) but the site had no usable information for someone who was searching. And by the way John…. keep up the good work. — Maverick Partnership Perth Western Australia :> IMNSHO, my reply was a direct response to the gentleman’s request : Somewhat akin to your reply to the request for information on marketing : seminars in the San Francisco Bay area ? I went and looked at the site : you referred him to in response to that question. Unless you are speaking : in terms of galactic proximity, Winter Park Florida is nowhere near San : Francisco.
Response:
Keep it up, guys! This is the most entertaining thread I have followed since Hector was a pup! Jay Curry MSP Associates Amsterdam [Moderator Note: This evening's entertainment; "Fontaine of Youth" has been canceled......permanently.] – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >My beef is with the Orwellian –snips– of my article and URL, >and unsolicited "personal opinions" of my writing style.
Response:
: Thank you very much from someone who has been loggin onto Usenet for : more than 6 years. Its not that I am a newbie that bothers you, as I : am not, it is the fact that I stood up to your arrogant and : heavy-handed moderation tactics and bruised your big fat ego in front : of your congregation of worshippers. Don’t tell me…you grew up in the 1960s and it kicks back on you from time to time? : I find it rather irresponsible that you flame new members and call : them newbies when they happen to disagree with your trigger-happy and : control-freak snipping and flaming. Newbies is as newbies does… : I am new to this group, and you are right I didn’t read your little : FAQ and charter. Typical newbie irresponsibility. : But I can hardly imagine it directs you to be so : self-righteous and arrogant as you were in handling my articles. I : guess what they say about absolute power does have merit… Too bad you’ll never know what having power is like. : 2)desire to dominate all others in the group–promote yourself as the : "Marketing Guru" (and I have been flamed by some of your : disciples/drones)-and thus "stealthfully" direct all prospects to your : business address–by disparaging all others and chastening them as : "newbies", "self-promoters", "Spam-Scum", etc. Take the false and : hypocritical USENET "Moral Highground" to build yourself in the eyes : of the unsuspecting member/prospects and make everyone else appear : lame and unimportant. It is nothing I haven’t seen before–classic politics. Are you still drooling? : In fact, when you look at how many times you either publicly bash or : jump onto someone’s article to add your two cents, if becomes quite : apparent that you are in-fact the biggest self-promoter in this : newsgroup! And if that’s true, then go for it! You got the control : and you are abusing it like any cold-blooded American would! Feed : everyone your bull shit propaganda and start your own marketing cult! Hey John, can I get up now, or do I have to continue bowing and licking your toes? : The seminars are doing great! And Kinko’s has a wonderful (not : inexpensive) and very professional conference facility here. I have : used various Kinko’s in different parts of the country–some are : definitely better than others. In fact, in our area, it is the best : thing going–short of the convention center. Must live in a wasteland. No, wait…aren’t you in Orlando? Home of the convention center in every hotel? : Anyway, enough of the moderator-wars. I personally don’t care whether : you post my articles or not. I can just as easily email the members, : and that is good enough for me. And we can just as easily mail-bomb you with email when you send bulk email in our direction. : (The rest of your dribble deleted for the welfare of all) Thank you, because we were tired of your inane responses. Steve Crisp PagePlop Web Hosting Service http://www.pageplop.com [damn...there I go again...self-promoting...]
Response:
> Keep it up, guys! This is the most entertaining thread I have followed since > Hector was a pup!
Glad to hear we’re not boring you, Jay. ;p Paul http://www.virtualbusiness.net
Response:
(tripe snipped) >As it’s more than obvious that you are a newbie, understand the difference >between unmoderated and moderated newsgroups.
Thank you very much from someone who has been loggin onto Usenet for more than 6 years. Its not that I am a newbie that bothers you, as I am not, it is the fact that I stood up to your arrogant and heavy-handed moderation tactics and bruised your big fat ego in front of your congregation of worshippers. I find it rather irresponsible that you flame new members and call them newbies when they happen to disagree with your trigger-happy and control-freak snipping and flaming. I am new to this group, and you are right I didn’t read your little FAQ and charter. But I can hardly imagine it directs you to be so self-righteous and arrogant as you were in handling my articles. I guess what they say about absolute power does have merit… >As to this newsgroup, if you can’t "play by the rules"… do us both a favor and >unsubscribe.
Sounds to me like you are making up rules on the fly. But I will indulge you and read your "rules to play by", though it seems you are more out for blood than play. But it sounds to me like you have more at stake here than not wanting to see a few (direct) self-promoting articles; my picks are: 1)desire to feel like your are in total control for the sake of total control, and/or 2)desire to dominate all others in the group–promote yourself as the "Marketing Guru" (and I have been flamed by some of your disciples/drones)-and thus "stealthfully" direct all prospects to your business address–by disparaging all others and chastening them as "newbies", "self-promoters", "Spam-Scum", etc. Take the false and hypocritical USENET "Moral Highground" to build yourself in the eyes of the unsuspecting member/prospects and make everyone else appear lame and unimportant. It is nothing I haven’t seen before–classic politics. In fact, when you look at how many times you either publicly bash or jump onto someone’s article to add your two cents, if becomes quite apparent that you are in-fact the biggest self-promoter in this newsgroup! And if that’s true, then go for it! You got the control and you are abusing it like any cold-blooded American would! Feed everyone your bull shit propaganda and start your own marketing cult! >BTW, I hope your seminars are a success so that you can stop having them at >Kinko’s and instead in a professional setting. You might also want to check with >your college, might get a good deal in the student union.
The seminars are doing great! And Kinko’s has a wonderful (not inexpensive) and very professional conference facility here. I have used various Kinko’s in different parts of the country–some are definitely better than others. In fact, in our area, it is the best thing going–short of the convention center. In fact, they provide a nice spacious and private conference room, contemporary furniture, whatever a/v equipment you could want, and a very convenient location for my prospects and clients. All-in-all a very professional setting IMHO. You must have a rinky-dink one in your area. I am very satisfied with their service and have no intentions of looking elsewhere. But then you just pointed that out to fabricate an insult, didn’t you? :) You moderators can be slippery at times… Anyway, enough of the moderator-wars. I personally don’t care whether you post my articles or not. I can just as easily email the members, and that is good enough for me. If you don’t stop chopping up my articles and stop interferring with the free flow of information, then I definitely won’t post anything publicly, and will leave you to maintain the peace and sanctity of your personal stealth-promotion-hypocrasy-fanclub as you were doing. I personally think you and your buddies are on some self-glorifying ego-trip and resent anyone questionning your poor judgement. But you wouldn’t be the first or last to suffer from an over-inflated ego. You sure can dish it out…now let’s see if you are MAN enough to take it. (The rest of your dribble deleted for the welfare of all)
Response:
>Read what John wrote again…"Don’t recommend a URL as if it’s someone >else’s."
Read what I wrote again…I signed the article with my name, my company name, and our URL at the bottom of that. It you are asking for more than that, then……go eat SPAM. {:-0 :> I appreciate the desire to rid the planet of spam, but I think you are :> taking things a bit too far and have become Spam-phobic. >Try again…for starters, I happen to agree with John on that issue. I >don not allow any type of spam on any of my servers and anyone who even
Define spam. Answering a direct inquiry as one member of a NG to another is NOT spam my dear Spam-Meister. :> If it was clear to you that I was promoting my business, then how can you :> complain that I was hiding anything–as if you "caught me!" Grow up. >It must have been in the way you did it. I myself have indicated clearly >what I do for a living
I think putting the secret code words "Marketing Consultant" after my name was a VERY clear indication of what I do for a living. >and provided an unobtrusive way for interested >parties to contact me if they wish.
I think putting my email and web site that contained information about the resources requested was pretty unobtrusive. How more unobtrusive are you (do you post your address in virtual invisible ink?) :> And what is wrong with self-promotion? >Nothing at all, unless you are coming on like a Toyota commercial during >television sweeps month.
Oh I seeeeeeee…let’s limit everyone’s freedom of speech and ban anything that doesn’t suit our taste! Got it! Is that part your "Altruistic" philosophical platform as well? :> Is this alt.humility.vow.of.silence or mbmm? When the rare opportunity comes :> that you do find one person out of the 50 million people on the Internet that is :> in your market, then why not market yourself–to their benefit and yours? >You could always take it to email. Again, there is a distinct difference >between offering general information for everyone’s benefit and throwing >yourself out as a paid consultant.
There is also a difference between being an armchair quarterback who is happy to give out free advice all day long, and someone who actually knows what they are talking about and does it for a living. If you don’t like the way I market myself to a legitimate prospect, then don’t become a client. Otherwise, MYOB. If my approach is really as bad as you say then everyone will be turned off, I won’t get any business, and because I am only motivated by money (and not helping the poor) I will stop wasting my precious time in this newsgroup. Unfortunately, (for your theory) I have already gotten several inquiries from prospective clients in the few days I have been posting. They appreciated my comments and were pleased and impressed with my web site. Beginner’s luck. :> That is the price to pay for the "Free Samples" of their advice that :> you and everyone else on this NG are benefitting from. I provided :> valuable information, and promoted myself justly–I contributed and I :> expect to get something for it. Otherwise, the costs of contributing :> and helping others solve their problems outweighs the benefits, and I :> am not running a non-profit organization. >Uh, maybe that is your problem. You expect something in return.
I don’t EXPECT anything in return, EXCEPT the opportunity to promote my services. I have not refused to answer somone’s question or demanded payment for an answer. But I do expect to be able to promote the services that I offer that relate to their stated needs. And I think most people with similar needs are happy to come across someone that could possibly help them. Why do you feel it is important to get in the way of that? >Payoff is nice, but I think that this group attends more to the altruistic >nature of its posters. any return is secondary to helping others – >particularly those who are in small businesses or need specific >questions answered.
I understand that, and I don’t have a problem with the payback. I haven’t demanded anything from anyone I’ve contributed to. My beef is with the Orwellian –snips– of my article and URL, and unsolicited "personal opinions" of my writing style. I personally think the moderator gets-off on flaming and commenting whenever he gets the chance. I haven’t seen a NG with as much unsolicited "comments" attached to articles as this one. I think the moderator needs to moderate his kibitzing and just post his own original articles without interferring with other’s. It’s like having the operator pick up in the middle of your call and joining in the conversation. Join in as a regular member like everyone else. No need to flout your authority and remind everyone of your POWER over their messages. IMHO a good moderator is more or less invisible, except when announcements are to be made, or when valid correction (not personal taste issues) is warranted; and then to reply to the offender via email. Making a show just pisses people off and wastes everyone’s time. Unless of course you are like me and enjoy a good flaming issues debate now and then. :> There is no real "serious" marketing question that can honestly be :> answered within the back-and-forth limitations of this newsgroup, and :> anyone who says otherwise is a fool or a cheater. You get guys who :> want simplified shoot-from-the-hip answers to complex questions so :> they can save the trip to the marketing Dr’s office. >Think again Bozo. There have been many people who have been helped in >this forum. And if the inquiring poster has not supplied enough >information, we ask for more until we have enough of the scenario with >which to give a valid answer.
Read my statement again "Einstein",…I said "serious" marketing question. Easy questions can be answered in any field or discipline. You are a master at stating the obvious. >Look, marketing is nothing special; it is not solid-state electronics.
Well if it is so easy and simple. then why can’t Apple market what they claim to be the best operating system in the world? I don’t think they are as confident about marketing as you are. But, then again, your’s is the same type of attitude that gets most businesses that get into trouble–into trouble. You’re cocky kid. But that’s what I like about you… ;) >Most of what constitutes marketing is two-fold: recognizing trends and >patterns for the purpose of making sense out of them, >and two, developing stratigies for the implementation of raising product or >service awareness.
Where did you come up with this half-baked theory? This is pure non-sense. This is exactly the kind of misinformation that sends small businesses to the poor house. Pick up a marketing 101 textbook and get an education before you start teaching. >Training and experience helps in those matters, but I >fear that you fall into the same trap as many professionals in any field >who needs to deal with the layman. You dazzle them with bullshit and >buzzwords that are simply another way of stating what is obvious to your >trained eye.
Not only are you cocky, and full of misconceptions but you are a cynic too! What a combination! First of all, kid, there are concepts and terms unique to every field. You can call it bullshit and buzzwords, but the fact is that you need to convey a set of principles and vocabulary to a client if your are going to have a meaningful discussion about his needs and the solutions to his problems. It is true that consultants have the habit of rehashing old ideas and slapping on new labels to promote them. To be perceived as being on top of things and current, everyone goes along with it and adopts the new lingo. That’s life, and you had better learn to accept and thrive on change–because its the only thing you can count on. And as far as what is obvious to MY trained eye, verses your untrained eye…that’s what you are paying for. Just because something is obvious to me, that does not make it less valuable to you. You should have learned in Economics 101 that scarcity is the driving force behind any economic system; I make my living off of you because you either lack the time, manpower, knowledge or skill, etc. to solve your economic problems. Because the benefits of my service outweight the costs of hiring me, you fork over your precious dough. It is irrelevant as to how easy it is for me, the issue is how easy is it for you? :> Anyone who blatantly provides such cheap and easy answers without :> going through the discipline of asking the relevant questions and :> properly evaluating the unique circumstances surrounding the question :> is doing a great disservice to the members of this group. >Anyone who can offer that criticism of what goes on here has not read >this group for very ling.
I admit I haven’t been here long. You are right. I am speaking to other groups and other postings I have witnessed. If that doesn’t apply here, then great–but then again, I never said it did. Look out for that straw!!!! :> As a moderator you should practice staying out of the way and learning :> how to facilitate exchanges and help people get their needs met–that :> is what marketing is all about. I hope you’ve learned something. By :> the way, are you a college student? >Go look up the definition of moderator. And, by the way, are you an >ignorant wankstain?
I believe I struck a nerve…. Best regards to your professor. :) >Steve Crisp
(No URL today–I don’t think you met my qualifications for a prospect.)
Response:
(tripe snipped) I’m not going to repeat what others have said about your stealth-promote tactics or waste my time replying to your dribble. As it’s more than obvious that you are a newbie, understand the difference between unmoderated and moderated newsgroups. Further, every moderated newsgroup has a charter and FAQ, giving the posting policy; what is acceptable and what is not. If you post to other moderated newsgroups, take the time to first read they’re charter and FAQ. As to this newsgroup, if you can’t "play by the rules"… do us both a favor and unsubscribe. BTW, I hope your seminars are a success so that you can stop having them at Kinko’s and instead in a professional setting. You might also want to check with your college, might get a good deal in the student union. — Moderator; misc.business.marketing.moderated m.b.m.m. site: http://www.nijenrode.nl/mbmm Proponent: misc.business.moderated
Response:
>> IMNSHO, my reply was a direct response to the gentleman’s request
: Somewhat akin to your reply to the request for information on marketing :seminars in the San Francisco Bay area ? I went and looked at the site :you referred him to in response to that question. Unless you are speaking :in terms of galactic proximity, Winter Park Florida is nowhere near San :Francisco. You missed our marketing seminar on Video offer. Just as good as if your were there. Let’s hope the customer isn’t as blind as the critic. > by deleting the URL, you effectively interferred with the requested > transfer of information.
: By deleting self-promotive information with very little usefulness to :the group *as a whole*, he continued to keep alive the concept of a :newsgroup as a resource rather than ad forum. I would think that a web site dedicated to marketing services would be useful to the group as a whole–in fact I would like to see a list of such websites regularly posting in the NG for the benefit of those who need it. That would allow us to focus on helping the poor and all that other good stuff. > Obviously, you are either not in business or have a very anal attitude about > promoting your own business to someone who is actually in your market.
: How is that obvious ? Those of us who have followed mbmm for a while :might see other motivations entirely. Perhaps the old advice "lurk before :you leap" would be in order at this point ? Anal. > cut the Big Brother speak and cut out your holier-than-thou (I’m > gonna save this newsgroup) crap.
: ROTFL !!! He doesn’t have to save it, he *started* it ! Interesting :that you should attack the person who not only keeps this group useful, :but whose efforts made it possible for you to post in a sensible forum to :begin with. How much is he paying you? > as if you "caught me!" Grow up.
: Okay, let’s look at the facts : Facts? Okay Let’s Look At YOUR Facts… : 1. In response to a request for information on seminars in the *San : Francisco* bay area, you send people to a url promoting your : seminars in the *Tampa Bay* area. No notice of that small detail. : Seems quite deceptive to me. We offer a video seminar that would serve him better than any seminar he could take in SF. You missed that one–or did I? I hope it is there! Get with the 90’s before its 2,000 buddy! : 2. You have repeatedly used the third person in referring to "Superior" : Third person is self-exclusive. More deception. Not when its owned by someone else. And not when you put the name of the company after your own. Do we have to idiot-proof everything for those of you who actually do have the intellect of a 12 year old? : 3. The self-promotional posts generally were missing a sig file. That : is bad manners, not to mention an obviously premeditated attempt at : misdirection. I put a sig file after all my posts…if the moderator cuts them off—what can I do? : 4. A HoTMaiL address. Nothing inherently wrong with it, but a bit : of research would have shown that many people just don’t trust : them. Too much spam and flaming comes from those places. I have my "legit" ISP email address in my sig file. Here it is again, Again, if BB cuts out my articles what can I do? : 5. Your consistent portrayal of small business owners as being lazy : is not only annoying, but a really bad marketing tactic. It also : shows a truly poor understanding of the system of business in an : organised society. (Neither of these give me a great deal of : confidence in your abilities as an expert.) I have stated facts based on my observation and experience. Why should you be annoyed? If the shoe fits wear it, if not MYOB. My only "marketing tactic" so far has been to share my honest opinions. But then again, that is what you purport this NG to be all about. Why criticize my "marketing tactics" when none of us is really here "to market ourselves, but merely to innocently discuss marketing itself for our mutual education"? You want insights? I gave them to you. You don’t like it–too bad. Welcome to the free world, Adolph. I appreciate your attempt to protect the tender self-esteems of American small businesspersons. While your out looking to protect their sensitive feelings, I ‘m out protecting their rear-end–everyday. When did marketing become lying or hiding the truth? For someone who claims to be such sweet-talker, you have a pretty acid tounge! If you can’t deal with the facts, then I don’t want you as a customer. I work with winners, not whiny loosers. I replied to your "small businessmen are supposed to work like large corporations" notion in another post to someone else with the same futile rebuttal. : 6. You use old school *sales* tactics in your posts, directing people : toward the conclusion that marketing is the only thing that isn’t : an expense. Hopefully there’s no one here so foolish as to believe : that. Marketing is an investment that can and should pay better dividends than any blue chip stock. Okay, Big Guy, it is a cost of doing business and you do have to pay for it. Happy Now? I hope I didn’t "trick" anyone else! Duuuuuh! : 7. You have abused a number of Usenet conventions, showing a remarkable : ignorance regarding the importance of knowing your target markets : culture. Could this be an example of the laziness you referred to ? The Sacred "Usenet Conventions"! Ooooooh…you’re scaring me with your authoritarian-speak!! I’ve VIOLATED the holy Usenet Conventions!! Get off your high horse…and repent for not chanting your mantra before every sentence (IMHO)! : Yes indeed, this is a sterling example of how NOT to promote a :consulting practice. Did you expect me to show you how to do it right–for FREE? No way! You gotta pay for that! 
> And what is wrong with self-promotion?
: Nothing if it’s done right, and in the right forum. Right-Right-Right? Do I smell some self-righteousness here? Whatever happened to the USenet Convention Chapter 23a, Sub Chapter 209c, Line Item 4569? You know the one….."IMHO". > When the rare opportunity comes that you do find one person out of > the 50 million people on the Internet that is in your market,
: If it’s that rare, I would think it’s counter-productive for you to be :here at all. Why not go to other forms of promotion ? Okay Smarty Pants! It is not just one in 50 million! Gee Willakers! > stealth-promote tactics like many others on this group.
: Name them. Go ahead. Perhaps what you are referring to is the :application of manners and respect to the process of posting ? I suppose :that could be called "stealth promotion" if all you’re used to is a :bludgeon and a loudspeaker. "The Process Of Posting"…Ooooh that sounds ominous. Are you trying to sell me a book or a seminar or something? I guess I will never know for sure. At least with me YOU KNOW when you are being sold. And I think that is infinitely more honest and straight-forward than the hypocritical "I’m only here to learn and share" B.S. style of promotion that you are promoting. IMHO. > then you need to be replaced.
: By who ? YOU ? Thanks for the nomination, but I’ve got promotions to attend to—mine and my clients. > That is the price to pay for the "Free Samples" of their advice that > you and everyone else on this NG are benefitting from.
: Wrong target, bucko. John gives the "free samples" but I doubt that he :gets many ideas here that are new to him. Okay delete the All-Knowing John, I forgot He knows everything… I stand corrected for the second time. (John, I am sure you are all around a nice guy, but you are a little trigger happy with the snip button.) > I contributed and I expect to get something for it.
: Prepare to be disappointed. I doubt that many people will take you :seriously after seeing this little post of yours. Get something means–to be able to promote my services. Nothing more, nothing less. > There is no real "serious" marketing question that can honestly be > answered within the back-and-forth limitations of this newsgroup, and > anyone who says otherwise is a fool or a cheater.
: The only thing saving that from being a lie is the subjective nature of :the word serious. Granted, most marketing problems can’t be solved :completely through the group. Many can be solved through application of :information gained from the group, and followup to pointers. Wonderful, you found something positive to say! I am proud of you! Whoever said you are 100% AAAA was totally wrong (An Anal Authoritarian Agitator). : It seems to be your implication that this group should be a place where :people come and say "I need help. Advertise to me." If so, you are truly :the ultimate in clueless newbie annoyances. Some of us read this group to :learn. Many people use this group as a forum to discuss the profession of :marketing rather than the marketing of marketing. I am not implying that. Everyone has a different reason for the things they do. Some of us are clearly Dudley Do-gooders, like yourself with no personal ambition or motives in life, while others are professionals looking to network and make a living, and still others are into controlling and flaming those in the second group; while taking whatever they can from the first au gratis. I am in the second group, with a foot in the first, waving a fist at the third. It sounds to me like you may be a closet second-grouper pretending to be in the first group with a foot in the third. Maybe you too will become a moderator some day—seems you got the "right-stuff" with all that talk about USENET CONVENTIONS and stuff. Don’t get me wrong, I love Usenet conventions! It is just when AAAA’s like you … read more »
Response:
> >Don’t recommend a URL as if it’s someone else’s >Don’t go into a big promotional speak as if you’re talking about >someone else’s marketing service, when in fact it is your own. > IMNSHO, my reply was a direct response to the gentleman’s request
Somewhat akin to your reply to the request for information on marketing seminars in the San Francisco Bay area ? I went and looked at the site you referred him to in response to that question. Unless you are speaking in terms of galactic proximity, Winter Park Florida is nowhere near San Francisco. > by deleting the URL, you effectively interferred with the requested > transfer of information.
By deleting self-promotive information with very little usefulness to the group *as a whole*, he continued to keep alive the concept of a newsgroup as a resource rather than ad forum. > Obviously, you are either not in business or have a very anal attitude about > promoting your own business to someone who is actually in your market.
How is that obvious ? Those of us who have followed mbmm for a while might see other motivations entirely. Perhaps the old advice "lurk before you leap" would be in order at this point ? > cut the Big Brother speak and cut out your holier-than-thou (I’m > gonna save this newsgroup) crap.
ROTFL !!! He doesn’t have to save it, he *started* it ! Interesting that you should attack the person who not only keeps this group useful, but whose efforts made it possible for you to post in a sensible forum to begin with. > as if you "caught me!" Grow up.
Okay, let’s look at the facts : 1. In response to a request for information on seminars in the *San Francisco* bay area, you send people to a url promoting your seminars in the *Tampa Bay* area. No notice of that small detail. Seems quite deceptive to me. 2. You have repeatedly used the third person in referring to "Superior" Third person is self-exclusive. More deception. 3. The self-promotional posts generally were missing a sig file. That is bad manners, not to mention an obviously premeditated attempt at misdirection. 4. A HoTMaiL address. Nothing inherently wrong with it, but a bit of research would have shown that many people just don’t trust them. Too much spam and flaming comes from those places. (Not related to stealth marketing) 5. Your consistent portrayal of small business owners as being lazy is not only annoying, but a really bad marketing tactic. It also shows a truly poor understanding of the system of business in an organised society. (Neither of these give me a great deal of confidence in your abilities as an expert.) 6. You use old school *sales* tactics in your posts, directing people toward the conclusion that marketing is the only thing that isn’t an expense. Hopefully there’s no one here so foolish as to believe that. 7. You have abused a number of Usenet conventions, showing a remarkable ignorance regarding the importance of knowing your target markets culture. Could this be an example of the laziness you referred to ? Yes indeed, this is a sterling example of how NOT to promote a consulting practice. > And what is wrong with self-promotion?
Nothing if it’s done right, and in the right forum. > When the rare opportunity comes that you do find one person out of > the 50 million people on the Internet that is in your market,
If it’s that rare, I would think it’s counter-productive for you to be here at all. Why not go to other forms of promotion ? > stealth-promote tactics like many others on this group.
Name them. Go ahead. Perhaps what you are referring to is the application of manners and respect to the process of posting ? I suppose that could be called "stealth promotion" if all you’re used to is a bludgeon and a loudspeaker. > then you need to be replaced.
By who ? YOU ? > That is the price to pay for the "Free Samples" of their advice that > you and everyone else on this NG are benefitting from.
Wrong target, bucko. John gives the "free samples" but I doubt that he gets many ideas here that are new to him. > I contributed and I expect to get something for it.
Prepare to be disappointed. I doubt that many people will take you seriously after seeing this little post of yours. > There is no real "serious" marketing question that can honestly be > answered within the back-and-forth limitations of this newsgroup, and > anyone who says otherwise is a fool or a cheater.
The only thing saving that from being a lie is the subjective nature of the word serious. Granted, most marketing problems can’t be solved completely through the group. Many can be solved through application of information gained from the group, and followup to pointers. It seems to be your implication that this group should be a place where people come and say "I need help. Advertise to me." If so, you are truly the ultimate in clueless newbie annoyances. Some of us read this group to learn. Many people use this group as a forum to discuss the profession of marketing rather than the marketing of marketing. > Anyone who blatantly provides such cheap and easy answers without > going through the discipline of asking the relevant questions and > properly evaluating the unique circumstances surrounding the question > is doing a great disservice to the members of this group.
Apply the above paragraph to your own blatant ignorance of Usenet protocols and behavior, and see who is doing the group the disservice. > As a moderator you should
[Offensive drivel snipped] Why don’t you learn what the job of moderating is supposed to be before you try "consulting" with him over it’s proper execution ? > I hope you’ve learned something.
I can’t speak for John, but I can say that I have learned something. You need to move where there’s less hot sun. Or wear a hat. Paul
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: >Don’t recommend a URL as if it’s someone else’s : >Don’t go into a big promotional speak as if you’re talking about : >someone else’s marketing service, when in fact it is your own. : : IMNSHO, my reply was a direct response to the gentleman’s request (for marketing : resources to develop marketing plans—which is exactly what we do). By : deleting the URL, you effectively interferred with the requested transfer of : information. Read what John wrote again…"Don’t recommend a URL as if it’s someone else’s." do you need me to parse that out for you? If you are going to put your URL into a post, and if that URL is applicable to the discussion because it contains information that many people can use or benefit from, then do it tastefully – not with subtrafuge. : Obviously, you are either not in business or have a very anal attitude about : promoting your own business to someone who is actually in your market. I : suggest you cut the Big Brother speak and cut out your holier-than-thou (I’m : gonna save this newsgroup) crap. It’s not a matter of saving the newsgroup; it’s a matter of not allowing this group to degenerate as so many others have. : I appreciate the desire to rid the planet of spam, but I think you are : taking things a bit too far and have become Spam-phobic. Try again…for starters, I happen to agree with John on that issue. I don not allow any type of spam on any of my servers and anyone who even thinks of violating that is tossed off without refund or recourse. On the other hand, there has got to be a legitimate way of using the Internet for email commerce. That is an issue we have been discussing here (which you would have known if you had taken the time to lurk before posting.) : If it was clear to you that I was promoting my business, then how can you : complain that I was hiding anything–as if you "caught me!" Grow up. It must have been in the way you did it. I myself have indicated clearly what I do for a living and provided an unobtrusive way for interested parties to contact me if they wish. That is well within the guidelines of what John will tolerate. You must have really come out like gangbusters in the arena of self-promotion to have been clipped. John is very tolerant, but he does not suffer utter fools. : If I wasn’t clear about the fact that I was promoting myself, then how : are you so sure I was promoting myself? Obviously, it was clear, unless you : possess some extra-sensory powers of detection that no one else has–which may : be why you are the moderator. Straw man alert… : And what is wrong with self-promotion? Nothing at all, unless you are coming on like a Toyota commercial during television sweeps month. : Is this alt.humility.vow.of.silence or mbmm? When the rare opportunity comes : that you do find one person out of the 50 million people on the Internet that is : in your market, then why not market yourself–to their benefit and yours? You could always take it to email. Again, there is a distinct difference between offering general information for everyone’s benefit and throwing yourself out as a paid consultant. : If you have a problem with that, then YOU have a problem. : I am not spamming or cross-posting or replying to every article with : stealth-promote tactics like many others on this group. If you don’t : expect that marketing consultants are going to promote themselves in a : marketing newsgroup, then you need to be replaced. Go read the charter. go find out what a moderated group is all about. : That is the price to pay for the "Free Samples" of their advice that : you and everyone else on this NG are benefitting from. I provided : valuable information, and promoted myself justly–I contributed and I : expect to get something for it. Otherwise, the costs of contributing : and helping others solve their problems outweighs the benefits, and I : am not running a non-profit organization. Uh, maybe that is your problem. You expect something in return. Payoff is nice, but I think that this group attends more to the altruistic nature of its posters. any return is secondary to helping others – particularly those who are in small businesses or need specific questions answered. : There is no real "serious" marketing question that can honestly be : answered within the back-and-forth limitations of this newsgroup, and : anyone who says otherwise is a fool or a cheater. You get guys who : want simplified shoot-from-the-hip answers to complex questions so : they can save the trip to the marketing Dr’s office. Think again Bozo. There have been many people who have been helped in this forum. And if the inquiring poster has not supplied enough information, we ask for more until we have enough of the scenario with which to give a valid answer. Look, marketing is nothing special; it is not solid-state electronics. Most of what constitutes marketing is two-fold: recognizing trends and patterns for the purpose of making sense out of them, and two, developing stratigies for the implementation of raising product or service awareness. Training and experience helps in those matters, but I fear that you fall into the same trap as many professionals in any field who needs to deal with the layman. You dazzle them with bullshit and buzzwords that are simply another way of stating what is obvious to your trained eye. : Anyone who blatantly provides such cheap and easy answers without : going through the discipline of asking the relevant questions and : properly evaluating the unique circumstances surrounding the question : is doing a great disservice to the members of this group. Anyone who can offer that criticism of what goes on here has not read this group for very ling. : As a moderator you should practice staying out of the way and learning : how to facilitate exchanges and help people get their needs met–that : is what marketing is all about. I hope you’ve learned something. By : the way, are you a college student? Go look up the definition of moderator. And, by the way, are you an ignorant wankstain? Steve Crisp
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Many colleges will assist you in developing a complete comprehensive marketing plan (overseen by the professor-I’m told). I was just able to get my new product accepted in one of these classes and it was rather effortless. Generally being to easy means not much value, but it’s hard to screw up demographic info, and other specific marketing research information. Besides you cannot beat free! You will have to spend some time with them and provide any help they require (not sure what that will be yet but, I was asked by the professor if I would be able to assist (I offered in the product introduction memo). I called California State University at Fresno Bureau of Business Research and Service Fresno, CA 94305 I called and got to the right person as anyone of you can as well. If you absolutely cannot find the right person or number E me and I will give it to you. (JG-I know you are probably going to say why didn’t you just put it in-actually you probably won’t) There are many other states so feel free and ask and I will look it up. There is even patent assistance in Atlanta Georgia. Hope I can help. I want everyone that gave me input when I asked for "HELP" to know I appreciated it. And subsequently, when I can offer anything like above I will. Rob K’N'C Enterprises
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although i do like and enjoy reading Levinson’s "Guerilla" Marketing series i can’t believe two people here reccommended the "Attack" book as a guide to writing a marketing plan. i have the book in my bookcase and by no means is it a good guide to writing a comprehensive marketing plan. not even close. "Developing a Winning Marketing Plan" by William Cohen is much better. i’m not saying it’s the best. the problem w/ most books on marketing plans is they are waaay tooo Qualitative and not Quantitative enough. you must have a good understanding of what all your marketing numbers are, where they come from, how they’re computed and how they relate to one another. Borders books has a good Marketing section in which i’m sure you can find something suitable. keith
: Hannah, I think Jay Levinson’s _Guerilla Marketing Attack_ is :excellent for this particular problem. Using this book, you should be :able to get a very good start on an effective marketing plan.
:>I am the manager of a new company and am looking for resources on :>writing and planning Marketing Plans. :>Can anyone help, point me in the right direction etc.
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>I am the manager of a new company and am looking for resources on >writing and planning Marketing Plans. >Can anyone help, point me in the right direction etc.
Check out [self-promotion deleted - JG] Reading one book on marketing, no matter how well written, isn’t going to do you much, though it may help you understand and navigate the marketing process a little better, so that you can effectively work with a marketing professional. Marketing is like anyother professional service. Consultants are expensive and you want to know just when you need them and when you are safe to "do it yourself". The planning of a marketing plan is especially the time when you can benefit most from a marketing consultant. Analysis of market research data, planning out a strategic marketing program, and evaluation of your current program are where you can especially leverage your marketing dollar and get the most out of a marketing consultant. There are many other aspects that you can do yourself and save a lot of money. But the bottom line is that marketing is a complex endeavor that is too critical to the success of your business to be entirely put into the hands of an amateur. Most companies meet their marketing needs by hiring a full-time marketing director (which is generally not a full-time job) or alternatively, a marketing consultant. Actually, "most companies" don’t meet their marketing needs, and I would say that is the reason why over 50% won’t be around to see the year 2,000 printed on their invoices…but that’s a different story altogether. [Major promotion deleted -JG] Good luck. I do wish you well. [Rather than go to the trouble of a separate reply, I'll just reply here. Some marketing advice for Superior Marketing Solutions. Don't recommend a URL as if it's someone else's Don't go into a big promotional speak as if you're talking about someone else's marketing service, when in fact it is your own. At least don't do it in this newsgroup. -JG]
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assist.net> writes >I am the manager of a new company and am looking for resources on >writing and planning Marketing Plans.
There are a number of excellent books on the subject. I can recommend ‘Marketing Plans, How To Prepare Them: How To Use Them’ by Malcolm H.B. MacDonald, published by Heinemann Professional Publishing, ISBN 0-7506-0107-8. Alternatively, if the need isn’t urgent, there will be a section on marketing plans in our online tutorial, due to appear shortly at a website near you. — John Beattie Online Marketing Tel/Fax 01207 529531 http://www.l-beat.demon.co.uk/
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I am in a relatively new position in a young marketing department as well and I have used the Guerilla Marketing book and found it to be great. Additionally, I have Tested Advertising Methods by Caples and it is another timeless book that offers a lot of helpful and successful methods. Lynell
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There’s some pretty good software available that contains word processor and spreadsheet templates for most of the possible planning required by marketing managers. It’s called MarketingBuilder by Jian Software. They also make PublicityBuilder, A similar PR tool. I’ve found them useful and certainly worth the price. Their URL is www.jian.com : I am the manager of a new company and am looking for resources on : writing and planning Marketing Plans. : Can anyone help, point me in the right direction etc. : Thanks : Hannah
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I am the manager of a new company and am looking for resources on writing and planning Marketing Plans. Can anyone help, point me in the right direction etc. Thanks Hannah
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:I am the manager of a new company and am looking for resources on :writing and planning Marketing Plans. :Can anyone help, point me in the right direction etc. :Thanks Hannah, I think Jay Levinson’s _Guerilla Marketing Attack_ is excellent for this particular problem. Using this book, you should be able to get a very good start on an effective marketing plan. Matthew