Business History Books » Business Consultant » Latest numbers of foreign technology workers, a new flood gluts the labor market during worst recession ever
Latest numbers of foreign technology workers, a new flood gluts the labor market during worst recession ever
Question:
In alt.computer.consultants,alt.politics,alt.politics.immigration,misc.immigra tion.usa,comp.jobs.computer,alt.business.consulting, >I’ll be the first to admit that turbins are a real turn off. >Like it says – I don’t want to be American and I don’t like them.
It doesn’t say that. It says they are a devout Sikh. That’s *all* it says. By the way, Sikh’s are a religious minority in India. Most Indians do not wear turbans, because they are not Sikh’s. (BTW, I happen to find turbans a turn-off just as I find crosses to be a turn-off. I find any religious affectation unwelcome.) — ***Posted by Jake’s Custom Newsgroup Reader***
Response:
Hi Liz, > and Americans are unprepared ? what do you consider to be "today’s > technology?" are you prepared to support this statement ?
Yes, unprepared. For my team, I consider the following to be today’s technology… A fresh off the boat Indian knows most of this stuff. 1. Know how to build web applications independently. 2. Know how to administrate a BEA web server (or WebSphere). 3. Know how to use software like TopLink to put an object framework on top of a relational database. 4. Know enough about Perl to maintain legacy cgi applications and for writing scripts which provide administrative support. 5. Through understanding of how to use ANT. 6. It is helpful to have people skills so that if someone asks you a question you can be a useful reference. What you get in college, where it’s to your advantage not to share, makes things tough. 7. The more you know about all the Apache stuff the better. For what *my* projects require … 8. Ability to write XSL transforms to convert data into XHTML. For what some of my co-workers do … 9. Upto date knowledge of EJB programming. For a DBA the list would be entirely different. > Part of the problem is that universities aren’t rigourous enough. > rigorous enough for what ? the two-bit BS, low-end standards of corporate > IT managers ?
We employ people at many skill levels. With a few exceptions the work is not low-end standard. You have to have something going to get a spot. I know these guys; you don’t need a rigorous education to > play ball with them .. are you expecting MIT and Stanford to start teaching > the latest techniques in Silverstream, Plumtree and Dreamweaver ?? They > need to stop all this insane focus on HR-concocted "skill sets" and start > hiring smart people who are ready to hit it and move the bottom line.
I think you are deluding yourself thinking that employers aren’t hiring smart people ready to hit it. It’s just that many of those they hire are Indian. The HR requirements are designed to be a filter so there aren’t a thousand resumes for one job. > Emmett, you have to make a living but you are not required to believe all > the horseshit the RHI folks are throwing at you … wake up, fella …
They don’t throw much my way. I have to ask to get any info at all.
Response:
Hi Tim >I’m caucasion. > That I doubt.. But you’re propably still an H-1B.
Check it out for yourself … Try searching on Google Images for Emmett McLean. That’s me playing Classical Guitar. >5. Contrary to popular belief, Indian workers are paid about the same >as US workers. > Proof.. You have none..
All I have is based on word mouth where I work. Only a very small set of individuals where I work have access to the data and my company, like tech companies, likes it that way. Where’s your "proof"? The way I see it is that if you’re White and and Indian is similarly educated as you are, and you’re paid more than 10% more than he is, well … then you’re on the way out. It’s been like that for years. As I see it, the fact that Indian’s make the same makes matters *much* worse. If whites were paid more for the same job then it’s not a big deal that large companies don’t want them… they’re just trying to save money. But when companies prefer Indians just because they like them better as employees, then you’ve got serious problems. And I’m confident that that’s the case. > Volumes of evidence indicates otherwise.. > One source.. Just surf thru the LCA database at www.zazona.com > Another source.. Why don’t you publish the wages rates you pay > your H1-B’s.. Don’t forget to include location, number of expected > work hours, job title, and assigned duties.. Now.. don’t lie..
I can only speak to where I work and impressions from talking to co-workers. > Wrong.. their are hundreds of thousands of the US’s best, (The ones > who invented most of the technology in use today), in the > unemployment/underemployment line.
I don’t question at all that there are thousands of talented American citizens. The most talented programmers are American because in addition to programming their English skills help them immensely. But why employers like mine feel confortable hiring Indians isn’t rocket science. Most are wonderful workers. No American like premadonnas. …. I’ll be the first to admit that turbins are a real turn off. Like it says – I don’t want to be American and I don’t like them.
Response:
> i concur. these buffons are laying waste to the best and the brightest. Now > explain to me again why I shouldn’t have become a lawyer with a 140k > starting salary and never have to relearn my whole profession every 2 years, > actually get more respect the more senior I got, and eventually make > partner?
well, maybe you should have become a lawyer … BUT, NOBODY is getting $140k to start; it’s probably more like 90-100k lately but that’s only for the top 5-10% of the class … also, not everyone is offered partnership .. overall, my guess is about 2% of law grads reach the levels you’re talking about
Response:
another scary point. Many indians come here on forged credentials, many don’t know shit. That will change in 2 years after americans have trained them. then it’s really game over.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> <snips> > > 4. For technical jobs many companies have lost interest in > > American educated workers. > > Part of the problem is that universities aren’t rigourous enough. > You’re onto something here, but perhaps it’s the wrong something. > Many, perhaps most, of the truly innovative coders I know, don’t even have > degrees. They got "the bug" for coding when they were in their mid-teens, > went out and got every book they could find, read it, read the docs, read > the man-pages, coded, bombed their code, re-wrote and finally learned what > they were doing, and of course hung out with every serious coder they > could > find, and if they couldn’t find any in their area, found them on BBSes or > later on the InterNet. > These people kick ass in coding, and some of them wound up with degrees, > but > they’d be the first to tell you they didn’t get their coding skills from > Uni. > I’m not sure that coding, the innovative stuff, comes from education, but > it’s more of an avocation, a calling. > And the US corporate world would really rather not hire them, no matter > how > good they are, because they don’t have degrees. > These are the people who provided the code for the internet start-ups that > actually had a product and were going somewhere. They came up with stuff > just out of the blue. And they don’t have degrees and corporations won’t > hire them, and the people with degrees are often competent, but far from > imaginative, and instead of coding through all of high-school and > young-adulthood when you do your best learning, maybe learned any real > coding in the last year or two of college, which required them to take a > lot > of classes unrelated to coding or IT. Besides, they got the notorious "US > collegiate mindset" with all of those expectations. > I don’t think that the Hindic programmers are all that much better, I > think > they’re just closer in mindset to the ingenious non-college coders than > they > are to the non-innovative and "college tainted" US graduate coders. > Agree? Disagree? elaborate upon the ideas? > It’s tough to judge just how good Indian programmers are today. One thing > for sure, as they replace their American counterparts they will gain > expertise and get to the point they are better. They will exceed Americans > because of deliberate corporate and governmental policies to drive down the > cost of labor.
Response:
i concur. these buffons are laying waste to the best and the brightest. Now explain to me again why I shouldn’t have become a lawyer with a 140k starting salary and never have to relearn my whole profession every 2 years, actually get more respect the more senior I got, and eventually make partner? The way it stands, there’s no point at all in becoming a developer. Congrats stupid businessmen, your whole friggin office will be indian before long. Oh, what’s that, you actually need a new product idea? Sorry, all the creative people are gone, but let’s just hire another guy from hyderabad.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> >These are the people who provided the code for the internet start-ups > that > >actually had a product and were going somewhere. They came up with stuff > >just out of the blue. And they don’t have degrees and corporations won’t > >hire them, > I think the person you describe fit much better in the entrepreneurial > environment of several years ago, and but does not fit well with the > traditional "mature business" model. > sure they do, Alex … it’s the "mature business model" which doesn’t fit > … the gloves are off and it’s a rough and tumble game now .. if you’re > building a soft machine, who do you want on the job ? Lean, mean and keen > minds so in love with the beast they’ll put every last ounce of themselves > into making it the BEST MACHINE man has ever seen OR well-behaved little > weenies with a mindless penchant for meetings, methodologies and > mealy-mouthed cliches ? > it’s tough out there and the oh-so-clever corporate decision makers think > they’ve got it all covered with their far-away and across-the-sea cheapo > technologists … when they’ve finally driven all of the worthwhile domestic > talent out of the game (which won’t take very long) they’ll find that the > now solicitous entities like Wipro and Tata are going to gently and > diplomatically rub their faces in shit … these guys have a plan, they are > pursuing it relentlessly, and they fully intend to win, and win big. Nobody > should mistake them for the docile Pakistani or Indian in the next cubicle. > There are Indians and there are INDIANS; I’ve been there nose-to-nose with > them and you had damn well better bring your leverage if you expect to get > out of a negotiation alive. Leverage in this instance is a strong, smart > and capable domestic technology workforce and our idiot corporate managers > are flushing it down the toilet. Sooner or later, they will pay for this > grievous miscalculation. More to the point, we’ll all pay.
Response:
Up on my soapbox… Prey tell what do you think a good CS program should entail? I went work for a state educational institution; so, that I could go to graduate school for free. From what I have seen, thus far, in the new "industry oriented" graduate CS program in which I am enrolled, I am not impressed! It feels far too much like a tech school education, and not enough like a true academic CS program. Heck, my undergraduate program had tougher theory than this program! Far too much time is being spent studying trendy technologies! To me, a CS program should be all theory. After all, CS is a research, not a practitioner discipline. Too many people are trying to make CS graduate = programmer. Learning how to bang code in a particular language on a particular platform is a side effect of a CS program. CS is about advancing the state of the art, not using the state of the art! Using the state of the art is IT! The reason why we are in the dumpster is because too much emphasis has been placed on IT and not enough on CS; thus, very little true advancement has been made in the industry. Most of the theoretical underpinnings on which the technologies that we currently use were laid down in the 40s, 50s, and 60s. We still use machines based on the von Neuman architecture, which was designed in 1946. The advancements in operating system design that produced Unix occurred in the 60s. Object-orientation comes from Simula, which was designed in the 60s. Almost all of the procedural and object-oriented languages in use today can trace their structure back to Algol (that is why is so easy to move from language to language), which was originally designed in 1958 (we still use an extended version the language definition notation that Jim Backus created to define Algol). Finally, very little advancement has been made with respect to software engineering. We still bang more code than we should, and, at this point, why are we still banging detailed code? Getting down from my soap box…
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I work with mostly Indian High Tech workers. > I’m caucasion. > I’ll be the first person to tell you that overall, they are more easy > going to > work with than most Americans. More likely to follow instructions. > Probably less likely to socialize or go to lunch with others, aside > from within their group. Possibly less likely to suggest something > new. > I’m met some caucasions who are really concieted. Real jerks. > But there is a serious issue here… > 1. That 10s of thousands of US students are graduating in Comp Science > and > Software Engineering without any job prospects but with $20,000 in > student loans. > Indians on the other hand have free schooling and come here with no > loans. > 2. US educational institutions mostly adhere to an old curriculum > which is only of interest to employers in a generic sense. > Indian’s come here prepared to work with today’s technology. > 3. Indian’s are great to have around if you doing a lot of development > of > shore, in India. > 4. For technical jobs many companies have lost interest in > American educated workers. > Part of the problem is that universities aren’t rigourous enough. > 5. Contrary to popular belief, Indian workers are paid about the same > as US workers. > ….. > Again …. > It is a very serious problem when your country’s best educated people > aren’t prepared for working in their own country. And if they can find > work they are stuck with lots and lots of education debt. > Of course. Only IEEE cares. That’s the least they can do because they > are the ones who designed the US CS curriculum in the first place. > The big insult is that ITAA, especially Sun, IBM and HP are so focused > on using H1Bs and not US workers. (Of course, Indian workers who are > now US citizens are in our boat as well.)
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > <snips> > 4. For technical jobs many companies have lost interest in > American educated workers. > Part of the problem is that universities aren’t rigourous enough. > You’re onto something here, but perhaps it’s the wrong something. > Many, perhaps most, of the truly innovative coders I know, don’t even have > degrees. They got "the bug" for coding when they were in their mid-teens, > went out and got every book they could find, read it, read the docs, read > the man-pages, coded, bombed their code, re-wrote and finally learned what > they were doing, and of course hung out with every serious coder they could > find, and if they couldn’t find any in their area, found them on BBSes or > later on the InterNet. > These people kick ass in coding, and some of them wound up with degrees, but > they’d be the first to tell you they didn’t get their coding skills from Uni. > I’m not sure that coding, the innovative stuff, comes from education, but > it’s more of an avocation, a calling. > And the US corporate world would really rather not hire them, no matter how > good they are, because they don’t have degrees. > These are the people who provided the code for the internet start-ups that > actually had a product and were going somewhere. They came up with stuff > just out of the blue. And they don’t have degrees and corporations won’t > hire them, and the people with degrees are often competent, but far from > imaginative, and instead of coding through all of high-school and > young-adulthood when you do your best learning, maybe learned any real > coding in the last year or two of college, which required them to take a lot > of classes unrelated to coding or IT. Besides, they got the notorious "US > collegiate mindset" with all of those expectations. > I don’t think that the Hindic programmers are all that much better, I think > they’re just closer in mindset to the ingenious non-college coders than they > are to the non-innovative and "college tainted" US graduate coders. > Agree? Disagree? elaborate upon the ideas?
It’s tough to judge just how good Indian programmers are today. One thing for sure, as they replace their American counterparts they will gain expertise and get to the point they are better. They will exceed Americans because of deliberate corporate and governmental policies to drive down the cost of labor.
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Indian’s come here prepared to work with today’s technology. > and Americans are unprepared ? what do you consider to be "today’s > technology?" are you prepared to support this statement ? > 3. Indian’s are great to have around if you doing a lot of development > ofshore, in India. > 4. For technical jobs many companies have lost interest in > American educated workers. > Part of the problem is that universities aren’t rigourous enough. > rigorous enough for what ? the two-bit BS, low-end standards of corporate > IT managers ? I know these guys; you don’t need a rigorous education to > play ball with them .. are you expecting MIT and Stanford to start teaching > the latest techniques in Silverstream, Plumtree and Dreamweaver ?? They > need to stop all this insane focus on HR-concocted "skill sets" and start > hiring smart people who are ready to hit it and move the bottom line. > Emmett, you have to make a living but you are not required to believe all > the horseshit the RHI folks are throwing at you … wake up, fella …
Liz, I’m glad you understand what is going on. IT managers don’t give a hoot about skills or standards because they aren’t technically smart enough to know the difference. The only thing they know is $$$/hour. Skill sets are nothing more than a legal way for companies to discriminate against older workers, and even worse, against American citizens. As for HR, they are nothing but sock puppets of the corporate executives.
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> >These are the people who provided the code for the internet start-ups >that > >actually had a product and were going somewhere. They came up with stuff > >just out of the blue. And they don’t have degrees and corporations won’t > >hire them, > I think the person you describe fit much better in the entrepreneurial > environment of several years ago, and but does not fit well with the > traditional "mature business" model. >sure they do, Alex … it’s the "mature business model" which doesn’t fit >… the gloves are off and it’s a rough and tumble game now .. if you’re >building a soft machine, who do you want on the job ? Lean, mean and keen >minds so in love with the beast they’ll put every last ounce of themselves >into making it the BEST MACHINE man has ever seen OR well-behaved little >weenies with a mindless penchant for meetings, methodologies and >mealy-mouthed cliches ?
No question. I in no way meant to imply that the "mature business model" was preferable; just that it was this shift in climate that is leaving the people described out in the cold. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->it’s tough out there and the oh-so-clever corporate decision makers think >they’ve got it all covered with their far-away and across-the-sea cheapo >technologists … when they’ve finally driven all of the worthwhile domestic >talent out of the game (which won’t take very long) they’ll find that the >now solicitous entities like Wipro and Tata are going to gently and >diplomatically rub their faces in shit … these guys have a plan, they are >pursuing it relentlessly, and they fully intend to win, and win big. Nobody >should mistake them for the docile Pakistani or Indian in the next cubicle. >There are Indians and there are INDIANS; I’ve been there nose-to-nose with >them and you had damn well better bring your leverage if you expect to get >out of a negotiation alive. Leverage in this instance is a strong, smart >and capable domestic technology workforce and our idiot corporate managers >are flushing it down the toilet. Sooner or later, they will pay for this >grievous miscalculation. More to the point, we’ll all pay.
– Alex Make the obvious change in the return address to reply by email.
Response:
>These are the people who provided the code for the internet start-ups that >actually had a product and were going somewhere. They came up with stuff >just out of the blue. And they don’t have degrees and corporations won’t >hire them, > I think the person you describe fit much better in the entrepreneurial > environment of several years ago, and but does not fit well with the > traditional "mature business" model.
sure they do, Alex … it’s the "mature business model" which doesn’t fit … the gloves are off and it’s a rough and tumble game now .. if you’re building a soft machine, who do you want on the job ? Lean, mean and keen minds so in love with the beast they’ll put every last ounce of themselves into making it the BEST MACHINE man has ever seen OR well-behaved little weenies with a mindless penchant for meetings, methodologies and mealy-mouthed cliches ? it’s tough out there and the oh-so-clever corporate decision makers think they’ve got it all covered with their far-away and across-the-sea cheapo technologists … when they’ve finally driven all of the worthwhile domestic talent out of the game (which won’t take very long) they’ll find that the now solicitous entities like Wipro and Tata are going to gently and diplomatically rub their faces in shit … these guys have a plan, they are pursuing it relentlessly, and they fully intend to win, and win big. Nobody should mistake them for the docile Pakistani or Indian in the next cubicle. There are Indians and there are INDIANS; I’ve been there nose-to-nose with them and you had damn well better bring your leverage if you expect to get out of a negotiation alive. Leverage in this instance is a strong, smart and capable domestic technology workforce and our idiot corporate managers are flushing it down the toilet. Sooner or later, they will pay for this grievous miscalculation. More to the point, we’ll all pay.
Response:
>Many, perhaps most, of the truly innovative coders I know, don’t even have >degrees. They got "the bug" for coding when they were in their mid-teens, >went out and got every book they could find, read it, read the docs, read >the man-pages, coded, bombed their code, re-wrote and finally learned what >they were doing, and of course hung out with every serious coder they could >find, and if they couldn’t find any in their area, found them on BBSes or >later on the InterNet. >These people kick ass in coding, and some of them wound up with degrees, but >they’d be the first to tell you they didn’t get their coding skills from Uni. >I’m not sure that coding, the innovative stuff, comes from education, but >it’s more of an avocation, a calling.
I think you are onto something. >And the US corporate world would really rather not hire them, no matter how >good they are, because they don’t have degrees. >These are the people who provided the code for the internet start-ups that >actually had a product and were going somewhere. They came up with stuff >just out of the blue. And they don’t have degrees and corporations won’t >hire them,
I think the person you describe fit much better in the entrepreneurial environment of several years ago, and but does not fit well with the traditional "mature business" model. >Agree? Disagree? elaborate upon the ideas?
– Alex Make the obvious change in the return address to reply by email.
Response:
> are you expecting MIT and Stanford to start teaching > the latest techniques in Silverstream, Plumtree and Dreamweaver ??
Dreamweaver? ROFL, talk about the dumbing down of America! — Chip C Personal site: http://www.chipcom.net/ Christmas Stories: http://www.christmas-stories.com/ "It is better to die on your feet than to live on your knees." — Emiliano Zapata
Response:
<snips> > 4. For technical jobs many companies have lost interest in > American educated workers. > Part of the problem is that universities aren’t rigourous enough.
You’re onto something here, but perhaps it’s the wrong something. Many, perhaps most, of the truly innovative coders I know, don’t even have degrees. They got "the bug" for coding when they were in their mid-teens, went out and got every book they could find, read it, read the docs, read the man-pages, coded, bombed their code, re-wrote and finally learned what they were doing, and of course hung out with every serious coder they could find, and if they couldn’t find any in their area, found them on BBSes or later on the InterNet. These people kick ass in coding, and some of them wound up with degrees, but they’d be the first to tell you they didn’t get their coding skills from Uni. I’m not sure that coding, the innovative stuff, comes from education, but it’s more of an avocation, a calling. And the US corporate world would really rather not hire them, no matter how good they are, because they don’t have degrees. These are the people who provided the code for the internet start-ups that actually had a product and were going somewhere. They came up with stuff just out of the blue. And they don’t have degrees and corporations won’t hire them, and the people with degrees are often competent, but far from imaginative, and instead of coding through all of high-school and young-adulthood when you do your best learning, maybe learned any real coding in the last year or two of college, which required them to take a lot of classes unrelated to coding or IT. Besides, they got the notorious "US collegiate mindset" with all of those expectations. I don’t think that the Hindic programmers are all that much better, I think they’re just closer in mindset to the ingenious non-college coders than they are to the non-innovative and "college tainted" US graduate coders. Agree? Disagree? elaborate upon the ideas? — Be kind to your neighbors, even | "Global domination, of course!" though they be transgenic chimerae. | — The Brain "People that are really very weird can get into sensitive positions and have a tremendous impact on history." — Dan Quayle
Response:
> Indian’s come here prepared to work with today’s technology.
and Americans are unprepared ? what do you consider to be "today’s technology?" are you prepared to support this statement ? > 3. Indian’s are great to have around if you doing a lot of development > ofshore, in India. > 4. For technical jobs many companies have lost interest in > American educated workers. > Part of the problem is that universities aren’t rigourous enough.
rigorous enough for what ? the two-bit BS, low-end standards of corporate IT managers ? I know these guys; you don’t need a rigorous education to play ball with them .. are you expecting MIT and Stanford to start teaching the latest techniques in Silverstream, Plumtree and Dreamweaver ?? They need to stop all this insane focus on HR-concocted "skill sets" and start hiring smart people who are ready to hit it and move the bottom line. Emmett, you have to make a living but you are not required to believe all the horseshit the RHI folks are throwing at you … wake up, fella …
Response:
I’m reposting my response.. After I just looked up Emmet’s IP posting info.. OrgName: Robert Half International, Inc. OrgID: RHI NetRange: 204.75.64.0 – 204.75.127.255 CIDR: 204.75.64.0/18 NetName: RHII-NET NetHandle: NET-204-75-64-0-1 Parent: NET-204-0-0-0-0 NetType: Direct Assignment NameServer: NS.RHALF.COM >I work with mostly Indian High Tech workers. >I’m caucasion.
That I doubt.. But you’re probably still an H-1B. >5. Contrary to popular belief, Indian workers are paid about the same >as US workers.
Proof.. You have none.. Volumes of evidence indicates otherwise.. One source.. Just surf thru the LCA database at www.zazona.com Another source.. Why don’t you publish the wages rates you pay your H1-B’s.. Don’t forget to include location, number of expected work hours, job title, and assigned duties.. Now.. don’t lie.. Actually .. We’d like that info to be an affidavit, and notarized. And we, (computer consultants), want the rights to inspect your (RHI) payroll and accounts payable records. We’ll send someone over when you’re ready. Somehow I don’t think Emmett’s slimy company will ever be ready. >Again …. >It is a very serious problem when your country’s best educated people >aren’t prepared for working in their own country. And if they can find >work they are stuck with lots and lots of education debt.
Wrong.. their are hundreds of thousands of the US’s best, (The ones who invented most of the technology in use today), in the unemployment/underemployment line. >Of course. Only IEEE cares. That’s the least they can do because they
Not.. The IEEE is a wimpy organization who bites the hand which feeds it (members). – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->are the ones who designed the US CS curriculum in the first place. >The big insult is that ITAA, especially Sun, IBM and HP are so focused >on using H1Bs and not US workers. (Of course, Indian workers who are >now US citizens are in our boat as well.)
Response:
>I work with mostly Indian High Tech workers. >I’m caucasion.
That I doubt.. But you’re propably still an H-1B. >5. Contrary to popular belief, Indian workers are paid about the same >as US workers.
Proof.. You have none.. Volumes of evidence indicates otherwise.. One source.. Just surf thru the LCA database at www.zazona.com Another source.. Why don’t you publish the wages rates you pay your H1-B’s.. Don’t forget to include location, number of expected work hours, job title, and assigned duties.. Now.. don’t lie.. >Again …. >It is a very serious problem when your country’s best educated people >aren’t prepared for working in their own country. And if they can find >work they are stuck with lots and lots of education debt.
Wrong.. their are hundreds of thousands of the US’s best, (The ones who invented most of the technology in use today), in the unemployment/underemployment line. >Of course. Only IEEE cares. That’s the least they can do because they
Not.. The IEEE is a wimpy organization who bites the hand which feeds it (members). – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->are the ones who designed the US CS curriculum in the first place. >The big insult is that ITAA, especially Sun, IBM and HP are so focused >on using H1Bs and not US workers. (Of course, Indian workers who are >now US citizens are in our boat as well.)
Response:
I work with mostly Indian High Tech workers. I’m caucasion. I’ll be the first person to tell you that overall, they are more easy going to work with than most Americans. More likely to follow instructions. Probably less likely to socialize or go to lunch with others, aside from within their group. Possibly less likely to suggest something new. I’m met some caucasions who are really concieted. Real jerks. But there is a serious issue here… 1. That 10s of thousands of US students are graduating in Comp Science and Software Engineering without any job prospects but with $20,000 in student loans. Indians on the other hand have free schooling and come here with no loans. 2. US educational institutions mostly adhere to an old curriculum which is only of interest to employers in a generic sense. Indian’s come here prepared to work with today’s technology. 3. Indian’s are great to have around if you doing a lot of development of shore, in India. 4. For technical jobs many companies have lost interest in American educated workers. Part of the problem is that universities aren’t rigourous enough. 5. Contrary to popular belief, Indian workers are paid about the same as US workers. ….. Again …. It is a very serious problem when your country’s best educated people aren’t prepared for working in their own country. And if they can find work they are stuck with lots and lots of education debt. Of course. Only IEEE cares. That’s the least they can do because they are the ones who designed the US CS curriculum in the first place. The big insult is that ITAA, especially Sun, IBM and HP are so focused on using H1Bs and not US workers. (Of course, Indian workers who are now US citizens are in our boat as well.)
Response:
Yes, UK has really clamped down. Amazingly, the situation in the US is 100 times worse and the government just keeps opening the floodgates
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->If you consider the facts in the high tech industry…. > 2001 300,000 jobs created > 2002 180,000 jobs lost >Foreign workers brought in in 2001 and 2002 – 2 million >= 1.9 million jobs lost (out of 8 million technology jobs in america). >25% of all jobs have been lost. This has only every happened once before in >american history (in manufacturing) but never at such a ferocious rate. > And similar proportions in the UK. The Government of the Idiot Blair > has finally acted though and cut down on Fast Track Visas > JH
Response:
>If you consider the facts in the high tech industry…. > 2001 300,000 jobs created > 2002 180,000 jobs lost >Foreign workers brought in in 2001 and 2002 – 2 million >= 1.9 million jobs lost (out of 8 million technology jobs in america). >25% of all jobs have been lost. This has only every happened once before in >american history (in manufacturing) but never at such a ferocious rate.
And similar proportions in the UK. The Government of the Idiot Blair has finally acted though and cut down on Fast Track Visas JH
Response:
> LOL. What a dufus. The recent recession was hardly the worst ever. Get a > clue. > Instead of simply declaring that it was the worst recession ever, why don’t > you provide some evidence to back up your ridiculous hyperbole?
Dufus defines you Zarathustra. The situation today is a lot worse than the previous recession of the early 90’s. I don’t think he needs to provide evidence of how bad the recession is, and he doesn’t. It is quite believable without that proof. My question to you Zaratushtra is: 1) Do you believe that foreign workers are replacing native americans in the high tech industry? 2) If so, do you wish for that situation to continue? Cynical that I am, I have read your posts and I question your motives Zarathustra, and I just don’t understand what it is that you want. — blacky
Response:
If you consider the facts in the high tech industry…. 2001 300,000 jobs created 2002 180,000 jobs lost Foreign workers brought in in 2001 and 2002 – 2 million = 1.9 million jobs lost (out of 8 million technology jobs in america). 25% of all jobs have been lost. This has only every happened once before in american history (in manufacturing) but never at such a ferocious rate.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->LOL. What a dufus. The recent recession was hardly the worst ever. Get a >clue. > Not for thr economy at large maybe, but the IT and Telecoms sector > have had negative growth of over 25% which has pulled a lot of the > economy down with it. > JH >Instead of simply declaring that it was the worst recession ever, why don’t >you provide some evidence to back up your ridiculous hyperbole
Response:
LOL. What a dufus. The recent recession was hardly the worst ever. Get a clue. Instead of simply declaring that it was the worst recession ever, why don’t you provide some evidence to back up your ridiculous hyperbole? — ***Posted by Jake’s Custom Newsgroup Reader***
Response:
>LOL. What a dufus. The recent recession was hardly the worst ever. Get a >clue.
Not for thr economy at large maybe, but the IT and Telecoms sector have had negative growth of over 25% which has pulled a lot of the economy down with it. JH – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Instead of simply declaring that it was the worst recession ever, why don’t >you provide some evidence to back up your ridiculous hyperbole
Response:
We finally have some good reliable numbers for the foreign worker visas. If you consider that 80% of L-1 and H-1 are technology workers, then in the years 2001 and 2002, years when america was DEEP in recession, we brought in over 2 million foreign technology workers. This is the greatest level of detail available from any source. While it is shocking that we currently have 18 million foreign technology workers in America, more than 60% of whom get permanent status, I am horrified that while americans suffer companies are dumping their american workers and replacing them with cheap foreign labor. You can fight back. Join the h1B Protest group. http://groups/yahoo.com/group/h1bfraud "High Tech" Visa Glut – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Year L1 Visa H-1B TN F1/M1 J1 Total Cumul. > (millions) > 1985 65,349 47,322 257,069 110,942 0.481 0.481 > 1986 65,349+ 47,322+ 257,069+ 110,942+ 0.481+ 0.962+ > 1987 65,349+ 47,322+ 257,069+ 110,942+ 0.481+ 1.443+ > 1988 65,349+ 47,322+ 257,069+ 110,942+ 0.481+ 1.924+ > 1989 65,349+ 47,322+ 257,069+ 110,942+ 0.481+ 2.405+ > 1990 63,180 100,446 326,264 174,247 0.664 3.069 > 1991 63,180+ 100,446+ 326,264+ 174,247+ 0.664+ 3.733+ > 1992 63,180+ 100,446+ 326,264+ 174,247+ 0.664+ 4.397+ > 1993 63,180+ 100,446+ 326,264+ 174,247+ 0.664+ 5.061+ > 1994 63,180+ 100,446+ 326,264+ 174,247+ 0.664+ 5.725+ > 1995 112,124 117,574 23,904 364,220 201,095 0.819 6.544 > 1996 140,457 144,458 26,987 426,903 215,475 0.954 7.498 > 1997 140,457+ 144,458+ 26,987+ 426,903+ 215,475+ 0.954+ 8.452+ > 1998 203,255 298,246* 59,061 564,683 250,959 1.376 9.828 > 1999 234,443 962,915* 68,354 567,146 275,519 2.108 11.936 > 2000 294,658 1,489,591* 91,279 659,081 304,225 2.839 14.775 > 2001 328,480 1,314,520* 95,479 698,595 339,848 2.777 17.552 > 2002 328,480+ 275,125* 95,479+ 698,595+ 339,848+ 1.737+19.289+ > Totals 2,424,999 5,485,727 487,530 7,322,791 3,568,389 19.289 > Grand Estimated Total 19,289,436 > * – Labor Condition Application (LCA) database statistics > from US DOL ETA > + – conservative (low) estimate > L-1: Intra-company Transfers > H-1B: Specialty Workers and Fashion Models > TN: NAFTA > F-1/M-1: Academic and Vocational Students > J-1: Exchange Visitors > Source: TEMPORARY ADMISSIONS FISCAL YEAR 2001 > Immigration and Naturalization Service > U.S. Dept. of Justice > Washington, DC; July 18, 2002 > Pages 36 and 37. > http://www.ins.usdoj.gov/graphics/aboutins/statistics/TEMP01yrbk/temp2 > 001.pdf