Business History Books » Business Consultant » Kids in Business Class
Kids in Business Class
Question:
> Paul get a grip. You sound just like those whiney and loud children the FA > described. She didn’t mention any of the other behaviors you brought up and > neither am I. > You are so full of yourself.
You’re new here, so it’s worth repeating an observation which I’ve found true whenever this particular thread surfaces: It is always parents (and grandparents) who turn to insults when someone suggests that _some_ children are so ill-bred that they don’t belong in an aircraft. Try to stay civil. If you can’t then there’s no point in continuing this discussion. First, here’s what the OP said: "These kids were very loud, whiney, loud, and, oh did I mention, at the "disruption" of their flight…… " As for the other behaviors I mentioned, those were what I have personally witnessed and been subjected to. > People flying Business Class from Venice don’t necessarily mean they are > business people.
Yes, so? Your point was that opinions might differ as to whether these kids were little monsters or not based on cultural differences. I’ll ask you again: what cultures have as normative behavior in the business class section of an aircraft departing from Venice, kids that were "very loud, whiney, loud, and, oh did I mention, whiney? [such that] SEVERAL of the passengers seated near them became VERY upset at the ‘disruption of their flight…… " > Perhaps they appreciate that class for their flights or > couldn’t get a First Class seat. God Forbid this behavior would be only in > Coach!!!
This behavior shouldn’t be anywhere. However, airlines derive the bulk of their revenue from full-fare passengers, FF passengers, and passengers who actually _pay_ for business and first class seats. The casual bargain hunter supplies are proportionately smaller portion of revenues. Airlines, like any other business, _might_ want to consider the preferences of those who provide the bulk of their revenues. > Many families have no problem purchasing expensive seats so you > will have kids somewhere besides Coach!
That’s quite true. What’s your point? Is it that purchase of a seat in B or F entitles a parent to bring on undisciplined, unruly disruptive brats? It doesn’t, any more than purchase of a B or F ticket entitles an adult to get sloppy drunk, put his feet up on the head rest of the seat in front, etc. > Not all parents have your rigid expectations for their children’s
behavior. Again, so what? If a parent’s expectations are that it’s perfectly okay to take out-of-control free-range feral children on to aircraft, then they need to have their expectations adjusted. Fortunately, anecdotal evidence posted here in this ng suggests that airlines are finally preventing parents from boarding with shrieking, out-of-control little monsters. And it’s about time. If your kids or grandkids are reasonably well-behaved (and I say "reasonably" because no one, adult or child is perfect 100% of the time) then no one will even think twice about their presence. If they’re going to make the flight hell for everyone else, then keep them off the plane. > Whiney and loud don’t necessarily mean the child is out of control to their > parents.
It doesn’t? If a child is so loud that an FA, who deals with this kind of thing on a daily basis, has to post here for suggestions on how to deal with it, then the child is clearly out of control. If you mean that the parents _could_ have controlled the child, but chose not to, then these brain-dead idiots shouldn’t be allowed in public, much less on a plane, as they are a hazard and nuisance to themselves as well as all around them. >It is a perspective thing. Some kids are just grating and if you > are going to fly you will be around kids who just might tick you off.
"Some kids are just grating"? Nonsense. Some _behavior_ is grating — there’s nothing inherently grating (or non-grating) about a child. If a kid is grating, it’s because it’s parents allow it to be grating. >Get > over it.
No. You get over the fact that, more and more, people have reached the limit of their tolerance with selfish, entitlement-demanding parents, who expect the entire world to accomodate itself to their precious offspring. If your kid is screaming, do something about it! Don’t tell others to "get over it." >The FA’s cannot do one thing about it to satisfy you except speak > to the parents which you also could do.
The FAs can do everything that I suggested in my post. And don’t, for a second, think that I am the least bit shy about speaking to parents if their children are causing a nuisance. And don’t, for a second, think that I am the least bit shy about complimenting parents when I see well-brought-up children who are a credit to themselves and to their parents. > Hopefully, there won’t be any children on that "cheap inexpensive vacation" > you have been asking about!!!
Children don’t bother me. Brats do. Hopefully there will never be _brats_ on my flights but, unfortunately, there are too many parents out there who think its up to the rest of the world to tolerate the ill-behavior of their little monsters. And, btw, I haven’t asked about a "cheap inexpensive vacation." Perhaps you turned on your redundancy filter in your news reader. > Better yet, charter a plane and you will > really have peace and quiet…don’t think you’ll get those precious FF miles > though.
Better yet, I will continue to complain when I see obnoxious monsters making flights hell for everyone else. Like it or not, the tide is slowly turning, and parents _will_ have to act responsibility when they bring their children on planes. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> — > > Paul: > > I think your reply was over the top. Your attitude towards > children(brats > as > > you called them) came through loud and clear. > You need to read more carefully. The OP had written about children who > had > created such a nuisance that multiple passengers complained. Not all > children are brats. _These_ children, however, clearly were. > > I do believe that anyone who is seated in any class of the plane should > be > > respectful of their fellow passengers. > > In this day and age it is just plain silly to think that because you > paid > x > > amount of dollars for your seat you should be favored over any other > > passenger in your same class of seating. > They weren’t asking to be "favored" over the children. If they were > asking > to be "favored," _they_ would have insisted on the "right" to behave so > badly that they created an annoyance and imposition on others. Their > objection was not to the presence of the children, but to the brats’ > interference with them. > Everyone on an airplane has the same "right" _and_ responsibility. No > more > and no less. If these kids hadn’t been behaving like animals, no one > would > have complained. > > They all paid the going rate for a > > seat in that chosen class and even those on pass or FF rewards have > properly > > arranged for their seats. Children not seated in someone’s lap have also > > paid for their seat! > So what? Just because someone pays for a seat does not give them the > right > to impose on others. That charming drunk businessman who defecated on a > food cart paid for his seat — does that give him license to engage in > that > behavior? > > The Flight Attendants should certainly approach the offending passengers > and > > tell them what behavior is expected. With minor children you will find > the > > range of responses from their parents/guardians to be from excellent to > > ugly. > Most often the latter, and for a very good reason: responsible and > considerate parents don’t raise little monsters. I’ve seen enough > well-behaved (and well-attended) children on airplanes to know that it is > possible to bring up kids who are capable of conforming their behavior to > norms appropriate for their surroundings. It’s the parents who let their > little darlings run wild who always seem to have the "how dare you > criticisize my child" attitude. > > This is where the real problems can occur. > > I believe that moving the offenders would be the best solution as they > will > > be isolated and feel the most pain from the move. > Gee, that’s what I suggested. Why is it that I’m the child-hating > monster, > and you’re not? > > From up front to the back > > of the bus when they have also paid the x amount of dollars will be a > rude > > awakening. > Yup. > > I am not aware that the airlines have anywhere in their passenger > > information anything pertaining solely to unruly children and therefore, > any > > solution is open to interpretation. Unruly adults are often met at the > gate > > by the local police so that option is very well known to most adult > > passengers. However, that doesn’t stop a person who is hell bent on > > misbehaving! > > As a parent and grandparent I am well aware that some situations just > can’t > > be resolved to everyone’s satisfaction when you are traveling with > children. > Then perhaps, as a parent and a grandparent, you can understand that other > passengers do not appreciate unrestrained and relenting misbehavior by > children anymore than they appreciate any other kind of nuisance on an > airplane. If your children or grandchildren can’t conform their behavior > appropriately,
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Response:
> Paul get a grip. You sound just like those whiney and loud children the FA > described. She didn’t mention any of the other behaviors you brought up and > neither am I. > You are so full of yourself. > People flying Business Class from Venice don’t necessarily mean they are > business people. Perhaps they appreciate that class for their flights or > couldn’t get a First Class seat. God Forbid this behavior would be only in > Coach!!!
Coach, First or Business, doesn’t matter, children should be held to a certain standard, maybe not the same standard as an adult, but a socially acceptable one. These children were not acting in a socially acceptqble manner. Many families have no problem purchasing expensive seats so you > will have kids somewhere besides Coach! > Not all parents have your rigid expectations for their children’s behavior. > Whiney and loud don’t necessarily mean the child is out of control to their > parents. It is a perspective thing. Some kids are just grating and if you > are going to fly you will be around kids who just might tick you off. Get > over it. The FA’s cannot do one thing about it to satisfy you except speak > to the parents which you also could do.
You are creating a blanket protection for all children no matter how they act. > Hopefully, there won’t be any children on that "cheap inexpensive vacation" > you have been asking about!!!
OR Miss Romper Room, hopefully there won’t be any children running up and down the aisles, yelling and screaming, pushing and shoving and generally acting like brats. <snip>
Response:
>Paul get a grip. You sound just like those whiney and loud children the FA >described.
I don’t think that Paul or his wife bother other pax by incessant crying, running up and down the aisle, kicking their seatbacks in front after they’ve been admonished REPEATEDLY by others not to, sassing back to cabin staff, etcetera etcetera…. >You are so full of yourself.
He acts like a mature adult. You OTOH seem to have not progressed beyond the playpen (or maybe even the placental) stage. >People flying Business Class from Venice don’t necessarily mean they are >business people. Perhaps they appreciate that class for their flights or >couldn’t get a First Class seat. God Forbid this behavior would be only in >Coach!!! Many families have no problem purchasing expensive seats so you >will have kids somewhere besides Coach!
That’s right. So I guess that gives kids free reign to disrupt the peace of other passengers. After all, they’re *just* kids — *right*? >Not all parents have your rigid expectations for their children’s behavior. >Whiney and loud don’t necessarily mean the child is out of control to their >parents. It is a perspective thing. Some kids are just grating and if you >are going to fly you will be around kids who just might tick you off. Get >over it. The FA’s cannot do one thing about it to satisfy you except speak >to the parents which you also could do.
I guess if Mr. Tauger wanted to exercise child discipline, he’d open a daycare center or a nursery school. Here’s some BIG news for you: he DOESN’T. Neither do I, or do most people (on an airliner or anywhere else). >Hopefully, there won’t be any children on that "cheap inexpensive vacation" >you have been asking about!!! Better yet, charter a plane and you will >really have peace and quiet…don’t think you’ll get those precious FF miles >though.
Lackwits like YOU, sir, are the main reason why so many of us have come to detest and abhor the mere *presence* of children — not just unruly children, but ANY children whatsoever. Believe or not, there are actually responsible parents out there who know how to instill proper discipline (and such kids can be a joy to be around), but in the dumbed – down and lowest – common – denominator Mouseworld that today’s USA seems to have become these good parents and their respectful, well – behaved children are an increasing rarity. Y’all seem to have this "entitlement" mentality — "Well, I know little Snotleigh gets a little bumptious at times, but he’s speeeeeshul, and he’s just a chyuuuuld!". It should NOT be incumbent upon Paul or any of the rest of us to discipline yer unruly brats. And we’re not talkin’ about the occasional baby who cries during take – off or landing, or a kid who gets a little bit fussy for a few minutes on a flight. We’re talkin’ about friggin’ MORON parents who refuse to take any responsibility for their little charges. Go to any public place and you’ll see myriad examples of out – of – control kids…. The ONUS is not on those of us who want a little respite from these pint – size air – borne Godzillas — it’s on an ANUS like you who refuses to recognize that it’s a parent’s responsibility to instill some decent discipline and standards of proper behavior. Everyone will benefit. [taking death leap off of soap box] – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->– > > Paul: > > I think your reply was over the top. Your attitude towards >children(brats > as > > you called them) came through loud and clear. > You need to read more carefully. The OP had written about children who >had > created such a nuisance that multiple passengers complained. Not all > children are brats. _These_ children, however, clearly were. > > I do believe that anyone who is seated in any class of the plane should >be > > respectful of their fellow passengers. > > In this day and age it is just plain silly to think that because you >paid > x > > amount of dollars for your seat you should be favored over any other > > passenger in your same class of seating. > They weren’t asking to be "favored" over the children. If they were >asking > to be "favored," _they_ would have insisted on the "right" to behave so > badly that they created an annoyance and imposition on others. Their > objection was not to the presence of the children, but to the brats’ > interference with them. > Everyone on an airplane has the same "right" _and_ responsibility. No >more > and no less. If these kids hadn’t been behaving like animals, no one >would > have complained. > > They all paid the going rate for a > > seat in that chosen class and even those on pass or FF rewards have > properly > > arranged for their seats. Children not seated in someone’s lap have also > > paid for their seat! > So what? Just because someone pays for a seat does not give them the >right > to impose on others. That charming drunk businessman who defecated on a > food cart paid for his seat — does that give him license to engage in >that > behavior? > > The Flight Attendants should certainly approach the offending passengers > and > > tell them what behavior is expected. With minor children you will find >the > > range of responses from their parents/guardians to be from excellent to > > ugly. > Most often the latter, and for a very good reason: responsible and > considerate parents don’t raise little monsters. I’ve seen enough > well-behaved (and well-attended) children on airplanes to know that it is > possible to bring up kids who are capable of conforming their behavior to > norms appropriate for their surroundings. It’s the parents who let their > little darlings run wild who always seem to have the "how dare you > criticisize my child" attitude. > > This is where the real problems can occur. > > I believe that moving the offenders would be the best solution as they > will > > be isolated and feel the most pain from the move. > Gee, that’s what I suggested. Why is it that I’m the child-hating >monster, > and you’re not? > > From up front to the back > > of the bus when they have also paid the x amount of dollars will be a >rude > > awakening. > Yup. > > I am not aware that the airlines have anywhere in their passenger > > information anything pertaining solely to unruly children and therefore, > any > > solution is open to interpretation. Unruly adults are often met at the > gate > > by the local police so that option is very well known to most adult > > passengers. However, that doesn’t stop a person who is hell bent on > > misbehaving! > > As a parent and grandparent I am well aware that some situations just > can’t > > be resolved to everyone’s satisfaction when you are traveling with > children. > Then perhaps, as a parent and a grandparent, you can understand that other > passengers do not appreciate unrestrained and relenting misbehavior by > children anymore than they appreciate any other kind of nuisance on an > airplane. If your children or grandchildren can’t conform their behavior > appropriately, or if you are incapable of making sure that they do, then > either don’t fly, or expect a lot of dirty looks, complaints and demands > that FAs do something about the nuisance you have created. > > Different cultures have totally different ways of managing children and > > whiney and loud to some is not to others. > The OP was talking about business class on a flight from Venice. Just how >d > ifferent do you think Italian business culture is from any other culture > that would make someone believe that out-of-control misbehavior by >children > would be acceptable? > > Unless you are going to outlaw air > > travel with children you better get used to tired and cranky youngsters. > You mean, I shouldn’t expect parents to make any efforts to control their > children? How about this: unless you control your brats (and remember, >not > all children are brats), then you better get used to people complaining to > the FA and demanding that something be done about your little nuisances. > > You > > know how "tired and cranky" we adults sound when the plane is late, > delayed > > or cancelled! > No, I don’t. When I’m tired and cranky because of a delay, I don’t scream > and cry, I don’t kick the seat in front of me, I don’t run up and down the > aisles, I don’t throw food, I don’t grab other people’s property, or any >of > the myriad other brat behavior I’ve seen and suffered on aircraft. Flying > is often a stressful and unpleasant activity. As an act of common >courtesy, > I make every effort not to make it more unpleasant for the other pax >trapped > on the plane with me. Try doing the same! > > — > > > > I have a question….. I just returned from Venice as a working > > > > crew member and we had a family in business class with three small > > > > children (ages around 4, 6 and 8…). These kids were very loud, > > > > passengers seated near them became VERY upset at the "disruption" of > > > > their flight…… They approached me and let it be known that they > > > > had paid over $5000 for their ticket and they did not feel that they > > > > should be
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Response:
Paul get a grip. You sound just like those whiney and loud children the FA described. She didn’t mention any of the other behaviors you brought up and neither am I. You are so full of yourself. People flying Business Class from Venice don’t necessarily mean they are business people. Perhaps they appreciate that class for their flights or couldn’t get a First Class seat. God Forbid this behavior would be only in Coach!!! Many families have no problem purchasing expensive seats so you will have kids somewhere besides Coach! Not all parents have your rigid expectations for their children’s behavior. Whiney and loud don’t necessarily mean the child is out of control to their parents. It is a perspective thing. Some kids are just grating and if you are going to fly you will be around kids who just might tick you off. Get over it. The FA’s cannot do one thing about it to satisfy you except speak to the parents which you also could do. Hopefully, there won’t be any children on that "cheap inexpensive vacation" you have been asking about!!! Better yet, charter a plane and you will really have peace and quiet…don’t think you’ll get those precious FF miles though. —
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Paul: > I think your reply was over the top. Your attitude towards children(brats > as > you called them) came through loud and clear. > You need to read more carefully. The OP had written about children who had > created such a nuisance that multiple passengers complained. Not all > children are brats. _These_ children, however, clearly were. > I do believe that anyone who is seated in any class of the plane should be > respectful of their fellow passengers. > In this day and age it is just plain silly to think that because you paid > x > amount of dollars for your seat you should be favored over any other > passenger in your same class of seating. > They weren’t asking to be "favored" over the children. If they were asking > to be "favored," _they_ would have insisted on the "right" to behave so > badly that they created an annoyance and imposition on others. Their > objection was not to the presence of the children, but to the brats’ > interference with them. > Everyone on an airplane has the same "right" _and_ responsibility. No more > and no less. If these kids hadn’t been behaving like animals, no one would > have complained. > They all paid the going rate for a > seat in that chosen class and even those on pass or FF rewards have > properly > arranged for their seats. Children not seated in someone’s lap have also > paid for their seat! > So what? Just because someone pays for a seat does not give them the right > to impose on others. That charming drunk businessman who defecated on a > food cart paid for his seat — does that give him license to engage in that > behavior? > The Flight Attendants should certainly approach the offending passengers > and > tell them what behavior is expected. With minor children you will find the > range of responses from their parents/guardians to be from excellent to > ugly. > Most often the latter, and for a very good reason: responsible and > considerate parents don’t raise little monsters. I’ve seen enough > well-behaved (and well-attended) children on airplanes to know that it is > possible to bring up kids who are capable of conforming their behavior to > norms appropriate for their surroundings. It’s the parents who let their > little darlings run wild who always seem to have the "how dare you > criticisize my child" attitude. > This is where the real problems can occur. > I believe that moving the offenders would be the best solution as they > will > be isolated and feel the most pain from the move. > Gee, that’s what I suggested. Why is it that I’m the child-hating monster, > and you’re not? > From up front to the back > of the bus when they have also paid the x amount of dollars will be a rude > awakening. > Yup. > I am not aware that the airlines have anywhere in their passenger > information anything pertaining solely to unruly children and therefore, > any > solution is open to interpretation. Unruly adults are often met at the > gate > by the local police so that option is very well known to most adult > passengers. However, that doesn’t stop a person who is hell bent on > misbehaving! > As a parent and grandparent I am well aware that some situations just > can’t > be resolved to everyone’s satisfaction when you are traveling with > children. > Then perhaps, as a parent and a grandparent, you can understand that other > passengers do not appreciate unrestrained and relenting misbehavior by > children anymore than they appreciate any other kind of nuisance on an > airplane. If your children or grandchildren can’t conform their behavior > appropriately, or if you are incapable of making sure that they do, then > either don’t fly, or expect a lot of dirty looks, complaints and demands > that FAs do something about the nuisance you have created. > Different cultures have totally different ways of managing children and > whiney and loud to some is not to others. > The OP was talking about business class on a flight from Venice. Just how d > ifferent do you think Italian business culture is from any other culture > that would make someone believe that out-of-control misbehavior by children > would be acceptable? > Unless you are going to outlaw air > travel with children you better get used to tired and cranky youngsters. > You mean, I shouldn’t expect parents to make any efforts to control their > children? How about this: unless you control your brats (and remember, not > all children are brats), then you better get used to people complaining to > the FA and demanding that something be done about your little nuisances. > You > know how "tired and cranky" we adults sound when the plane is late, > delayed > or cancelled! > No, I don’t. When I’m tired and cranky because of a delay, I don’t scream > and cry, I don’t kick the seat in front of me, I don’t run up and down the > aisles, I don’t throw food, I don’t grab other people’s property, or any of > the myriad other brat behavior I’ve seen and suffered on aircraft. Flying > is often a stressful and unpleasant activity. As an act of common courtesy, > I make every effort not to make it more unpleasant for the other pax trapped > on the plane with me. Try doing the same! > — > > > I have a question….. I just returned from Venice as a working > > > crew member and we had a family in business class with three small > > > children (ages around 4, 6 and 8…). These kids were very loud, > > > passengers seated near them became VERY upset at the "disruption" of > > > their flight…… They approached me and let it be known that they > > > had paid over $5000 for their ticket and they did not feel that they > > > should be "subjected" to such ruckus….. > > > So my question is——-you, as the travelling public, what is it that > > > Granted, it’s a very fine line…….but what, if anything, do you > > > feel that the flight crew is "obligated" to do…..? (by the way, the > > > flight was completely full so "relocation" was not an option…..) > > That’s a very good question. I suppose, first and foremost, I expect > you > to > > report to management that the presence of the disruptive children in > > business class disturbed a number of passengers who indicated to you > that > > they expected to be insulated from such nuisances when they pay as much > as > > they do for a ticket. Airlines have to know that they will lose > business > if > > they continue to cater to disruptive minorities, i.e. families flying > with > > children. > > Next, I expect you to tell the parent, in no uncertain terms, that their > > supervision of their charges is inadequate, that _they_ (the parents) > are > > creating a disruption, and that _they_ (the parents) had better get > their > > children under control. > > If the parents are unwilling or unable to discipline their brats, then I > > expect you to make an effort to do so, as you would with any other > > disruptive passenger, i.e. sternly, but calmly, telling the children > that > > their behavior is unacceptable and they have to sit there and not annoy > > others. If you can dig out something to entertain them, fine, but I > don’t > > see it as your job to do so. > > Finally, I would expect you to reseat either the family or the > complaining > > passengers. The complaining passengers should be moved to first class > (if > > there’s room), or to a different section of business class (if your > planes > > are so configured). If there’s no room in first, and no other seating > > alternatives that are acceptable to the complaining passengers, move the > > family into coach, hopefully somewhere where they won’t annoy other > coach > > passengers. > > I am always appreciative when flight crew do their best to resolve a > > situation. When, however, they simply ignore it or, worse, cater to > > disruptive brats and their parents at the expensive of
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Response:
> Paul: > I think your reply was over the top. Your attitude towards children(brats as > you called them) came through loud and clear.
You need to read more carefully. The OP had written about children who had created such a nuisance that multiple passengers complained. Not all children are brats. _These_ children, however, clearly were. > I do believe that anyone who is seated in any class of the plane should be > respectful of their fellow passengers. > In this day and age it is just plain silly to think that because you paid x > amount of dollars for your seat you should be favored over any other > passenger in your same class of seating.
They weren’t asking to be "favored" over the children. If they were asking to be "favored," _they_ would have insisted on the "right" to behave so badly that they created an annoyance and imposition on others. Their objection was not to the presence of the children, but to the brats’ interference with them. Everyone on an airplane has the same "right" _and_ responsibility. No more and no less. If these kids hadn’t been behaving like animals, no one would have complained. > They all paid the going rate for a > seat in that chosen class and even those on pass or FF rewards have properly > arranged for their seats. Children not seated in someone’s lap have also > paid for their seat!
So what? Just because someone pays for a seat does not give them the right to impose on others. That charming drunk businessman who defecated on a food cart paid for his seat — does that give him license to engage in that behavior? > The Flight Attendants should certainly approach the offending passengers and > tell them what behavior is expected. With minor children you will find the > range of responses from their parents/guardians to be from excellent to > ugly.
Most often the latter, and for a very good reason: responsible and considerate parents don’t raise little monsters. I’ve seen enough well-behaved (and well-attended) children on airplanes to know that it is possible to bring up kids who are capable of conforming their behavior to norms appropriate for their surroundings. It’s the parents who let their little darlings run wild who always seem to have the "how dare you criticisize my child" attitude. > This is where the real problems can occur. > I believe that moving the offenders would be the best solution as they will > be isolated and feel the most pain from the move.
Gee, that’s what I suggested. Why is it that I’m the child-hating monster, and you’re not? > From up front to the back > of the bus when they have also paid the x amount of dollars will be a rude > awakening.
Yup. > I am not aware that the airlines have anywhere in their passenger > information anything pertaining solely to unruly children and therefore, any > solution is open to interpretation. Unruly adults are often met at the gate > by the local police so that option is very well known to most adult > passengers. However, that doesn’t stop a person who is hell bent on > misbehaving! > As a parent and grandparent I am well aware that some situations just can’t > be resolved to everyone’s satisfaction when you are traveling with
children. Then perhaps, as a parent and a grandparent, you can understand that other passengers do not appreciate unrestrained and relenting misbehavior by children anymore than they appreciate any other kind of nuisance on an airplane. If your children or grandchildren can’t conform their behavior appropriately, or if you are incapable of making sure that they do, then either don’t fly, or expect a lot of dirty looks, complaints and demands that FAs do something about the nuisance you have created. > Different cultures have totally different ways of managing children and > whiney and loud to some is not to others.
The OP was talking about business class on a flight from Venice. Just how d ifferent do you think Italian business culture is from any other culture that would make someone believe that out-of-control misbehavior by children would be acceptable? > Unless you are going to outlaw air > travel with children you better get used to tired and cranky youngsters.
You mean, I shouldn’t expect parents to make any efforts to control their children? How about this: unless you control your brats (and remember, not all children are brats), then you better get used to people complaining to the FA and demanding that something be done about your little nuisances. > You > know how "tired and cranky" we adults sound when the plane is late, delayed > or cancelled!
No, I don’t. When I’m tired and cranky because of a delay, I don’t scream and cry, I don’t kick the seat in front of me, I don’t run up and down the aisles, I don’t throw food, I don’t grab other people’s property, or any of the myriad other brat behavior I’ve seen and suffered on aircraft. Flying is often a stressful and unpleasant activity. As an act of common courtesy, I make every effort not to make it more unpleasant for the other pax trapped on the plane with me. Try doing the same! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> — > > I have a question….. I just returned from Venice as a working > > crew member and we had a family in business class with three small > > children (ages around 4, 6 and 8…). These kids were very loud, > > passengers seated near them became VERY upset at the "disruption" of > > their flight…… They approached me and let it be known that they > > had paid over $5000 for their ticket and they did not feel that they > > should be "subjected" to such ruckus….. > > So my question is——-you, as the travelling public, what is it that > > Granted, it’s a very fine line…….but what, if anything, do you > > feel that the flight crew is "obligated" to do…..? (by the way, the > > flight was completely full so "relocation" was not an option…..) > That’s a very good question. I suppose, first and foremost, I expect you > to > report to management that the presence of the disruptive children in > business class disturbed a number of passengers who indicated to you that > they expected to be insulated from such nuisances when they pay as much as > they do for a ticket. Airlines have to know that they will lose business > if > they continue to cater to disruptive minorities, i.e. families flying with > children. > Next, I expect you to tell the parent, in no uncertain terms, that their > supervision of their charges is inadequate, that _they_ (the parents) are > creating a disruption, and that _they_ (the parents) had better get their > children under control. > If the parents are unwilling or unable to discipline their brats, then I > expect you to make an effort to do so, as you would with any other > disruptive passenger, i.e. sternly, but calmly, telling the children that > their behavior is unacceptable and they have to sit there and not annoy > others. If you can dig out something to entertain them, fine, but I don’t > see it as your job to do so. > Finally, I would expect you to reseat either the family or the complaining > passengers. The complaining passengers should be moved to first class (if > there’s room), or to a different section of business class (if your planes > are so configured). If there’s no room in first, and no other seating > alternatives that are acceptable to the complaining passengers, move the > family into coach, hopefully somewhere where they won’t annoy other coach > passengers. > I am always appreciative when flight crew do their best to resolve a > situation. When, however, they simply ignore it or, worse, cater to > disruptive brats and their parents at the expensive of other pax who > aren’t > interfering with anyone, I reconsider my choice of airlines. > > Jaycey
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> Presumably you flying on a common carrier, a carrier that accepts all > (at least all who behave within the parameters of the law).
Last time I checked, airlines were not common carriers, and there is absolutely no legal impediment to banning passengers under a certain age. However, nothing in the original post suggested that. > If one wants to travel in silence, charter the airplane.
How about, "people should try to be considerate of other people, and not create nuisances and annoyances that bother others"? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->I have a question….. I just returned from Venice as a working >crew member and we had a family in business class with three small >children (ages around 4, 6 and 8…). These kids were very loud, >passengers seated near them became VERY upset at the "disruption" of >their flight…… They approached me and let it be known that they >had paid over $5000 for their ticket and they did not feel that they >should be "subjected" to such ruckus….. >So my question is——-you, as the travelling public, what is it that >Granted, it’s a very fine line…….but what, if anything, do you >feel that the flight crew is "obligated" to do…..? (by the way, the >flight was completely full so "relocation" was not an option…..) >Jaycey
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Paul: I think your reply was over the top. Your attitude towards children(brats as you called them) came through loud and clear. I do believe that anyone who is seated in any class of the plane should be respectful of their fellow passengers. In this day and age it is just plain silly to think that because you paid x amount of dollars for your seat you should be favored over any other passenger in your same class of seating. They all paid the going rate for a seat in that chosen class and even those on pass or FF rewards have properly arranged for their seats. Children not seated in someone’s lap have also paid for their seat! The Flight Attendants should certainly approach the offending passengers and tell them what behavior is expected. With minor children you will find the range of responses from their parents/guardians to be from excellent to ugly. This is where the real problems can occur. I believe that moving the offenders would be the best solution as they will be isolated and feel the most pain from the move. From up front to the back of the bus when they have also paid the x amount of dollars will be a rude awakening. I am not aware that the airlines have anywhere in their passenger information anything pertaining solely to unruly children and therefore, any solution is open to interpretation. Unruly adults are often met at the gate by the local police so that option is very well known to most adult passengers. However, that doesn’t stop a person who is hell bent on misbehaving! As a parent and grandparent I am well aware that some situations just can’t be resolved to everyone’s satisfaction when you are traveling with children. Different cultures have totally different ways of managing children and whiney and loud to some is not to others. Unless you are going to outlaw air travel with children you better get used to tired and cranky youngsters. You know how "tired and cranky" we adults sound when the plane is late, delayed or cancelled! —
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I have a question….. I just returned from Venice as a working > crew member and we had a family in business class with three small > children (ages around 4, 6 and 8…). These kids were very loud, > passengers seated near them became VERY upset at the "disruption" of > their flight…… They approached me and let it be known that they > had paid over $5000 for their ticket and they did not feel that they > should be "subjected" to such ruckus….. > So my question is——-you, as the travelling public, what is it that > Granted, it’s a very fine line…….but what, if anything, do you > feel that the flight crew is "obligated" to do…..? (by the way, the > flight was completely full so "relocation" was not an option…..) > That’s a very good question. I suppose, first and foremost, I expect you to > report to management that the presence of the disruptive children in > business class disturbed a number of passengers who indicated to you that > they expected to be insulated from such nuisances when they pay as much as > they do for a ticket. Airlines have to know that they will lose business if > they continue to cater to disruptive minorities, i.e. families flying with > children. > Next, I expect you to tell the parent, in no uncertain terms, that their > supervision of their charges is inadequate, that _they_ (the parents) are > creating a disruption, and that _they_ (the parents) had better get their > children under control. > If the parents are unwilling or unable to discipline their brats, then I > expect you to make an effort to do so, as you would with any other > disruptive passenger, i.e. sternly, but calmly, telling the children that > their behavior is unacceptable and they have to sit there and not annoy > others. If you can dig out something to entertain them, fine, but I don’t > see it as your job to do so. > Finally, I would expect you to reseat either the family or the complaining > passengers. The complaining passengers should be moved to first class (if > there’s room), or to a different section of business class (if your planes > are so configured). If there’s no room in first, and no other seating > alternatives that are acceptable to the complaining passengers, move the > family into coach, hopefully somewhere where they won’t annoy other coach > passengers. > I am always appreciative when flight crew do their best to resolve a > situation. When, however, they simply ignore it or, worse, cater to > disruptive brats and their parents at the expensive of other pax who aren’t > interfering with anyone, I reconsider my choice of airlines. > Jaycey
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> I have a question….. I just returned from Venice as a working > crew member and we had a family in business class with three small > children (ages around 4, 6 and 8…). These kids were very loud, > passengers seated near them became VERY upset at the "disruption" of > their flight…… They approached me and let it be known that they > had paid over $5000 for their ticket and they did not feel that they > should be "subjected" to such ruckus…..
- Running to the air raid shelter before the bombs begin to fall –
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Presumably you flying on a common carrier, a carrier that accepts all (at least all who behave within the parameters of the law). If one wants to travel in silence, charter the airplane. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->I have a question….. I just returned from Venice as a working >crew member and we had a family in business class with three small >children (ages around 4, 6 and 8…). These kids were very loud, >passengers seated near them became VERY upset at the "disruption" of >their flight…… They approached me and let it be known that they >had paid over $5000 for their ticket and they did not feel that they >should be "subjected" to such ruckus….. >So my question is——-you, as the travelling public, what is it that >Granted, it’s a very fine line…….but what, if anything, do you >feel that the flight crew is "obligated" to do…..? (by the way, the >flight was completely full so "relocation" was not an option…..) >Jaycey
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If an adult or child is loud, I agree with you, not much can be done. But obnoxious? Define obnoxious. If obnoxious means throwing drinks or food at other passengers, running into other people, kicking the seat hard often, then the FA needs to tell the PAX, adult or child, to stop bothering other PAX. Sam – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I have a question….. I just returned from Venice as a working > crew member and we had a family in business class with three small > children (ages around 4, 6 and 8…). These kids were very loud, > passengers seated near them became VERY upset at the "disruption" of > their flight…… They approached me and let it be known that they > had paid over $5000 for their ticket and they did not feel that they > should be "subjected" to such ruckus….. > So my question is——-you, as the travelling public, what is it that > Granted, it’s a very fine line…….but what, if anything, do you > feel that the flight crew is "obligated" to do…..? (by the way, the > flight was completely full so "relocation" was not an option…..) > Jaycey > Certainly, the other passengers might be angry under these circumstances. > But there is nothing you can do, practically. What would you do if an adult > persisted in loud and obnoxious behavior? Can you hold a child to a higher > standard? > If you try to reason with the parents, you might well precipitate anger and > complaint and > STILL not obtain the goal of quieting the children. > It is a no-win situation.
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I don’t really think you can do anything. BUT, I don’t think Airlines should allow children, IMO under the age of 12 in Business. For this exact reason, people pay 4X the price of everyone else to have a quiet and restfull flight and there is no reason that they should have it disturbed. As for you, I think the flight crew should have the right to switch anybody (adult or child) that disturbs the other passengers to a seat in Economy (Let some guy, like me, have an upgrade). — Yoni MCP 2000
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I have a question….. I just returned from Venice as a working > crew member and we had a family in business class with three small > children (ages around 4, 6 and 8…). These kids were very loud, > passengers seated near them became VERY upset at the "disruption" of > their flight…… They approached me and let it be known that they > had paid over $5000 for their ticket and they did not feel that they > should be "subjected" to such ruckus….. > So my question is——-you, as the travelling public, what is it that > Granted, it’s a very fine line…….but what, if anything, do you > feel that the flight crew is "obligated" to do…..? (by the way, the > flight was completely full so "relocation" was not an option…..) > Jaycey
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>I don’t really think you can do anything. BUT, I don’t think Airlines should >allow children, IMO under the age of 12 in Business. >For this exact reason, people pay 4X the price of everyone else to have a >quiet and restfull flight and there is no reason that they should have it >disturbed.
Anybody that paid for a Business ticket for ‘this exact reason’ would be pretty stupid since no BC ticket promises such a ‘benefit’. >As for you, I think the flight crew should have the right to switch anybody >(adult or child) that disturbs the other passengers to a seat in Economy >(Let some guy, like me, have an upgrade).
To put it in somewhat different terms, BC promises better pitch, better food, higher FA/pax ratio, higher toilet/pax ratio, and several other things — but nowhere does it say that BC is to have quieter pax than economy. So your proposed punishment of economy pax is really not warranted by the rules/CoC.
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stella_artois schrieb in Nachricht >had paid over $5000 for their ticket and they did not feel that they
Was the familiy upgraded or full fare?
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> I have a question….. I just returned from Venice as a working > crew member and we had a family in business class with three small > children (ages around 4, 6 and 8…). These kids were very loud, > passengers seated near them became VERY upset at the "disruption" of > their flight…… They approached me and let it be known that they > had paid over $5000 for their ticket and they did not feel that they > should be "subjected" to such ruckus….. > So my question is——-you, as the travelling public, what is it that > Granted, it’s a very fine line…….but what, if anything, do you > feel that the flight crew is "obligated" to do…..? (by the way, the > flight was completely full so "relocation" was not an option…..)
That’s a very good question. I suppose, first and foremost, I expect you to report to management that the presence of the disruptive children in business class disturbed a number of passengers who indicated to you that they expected to be insulated from such nuisances when they pay as much as they do for a ticket. Airlines have to know that they will lose business if they continue to cater to disruptive minorities, i.e. families flying with children. Next, I expect you to tell the parent, in no uncertain terms, that their supervision of their charges is inadequate, that _they_ (the parents) are creating a disruption, and that _they_ (the parents) had better get their children under control. If the parents are unwilling or unable to discipline their brats, then I expect you to make an effort to do so, as you would with any other disruptive passenger, i.e. sternly, but calmly, telling the children that their behavior is unacceptable and they have to sit there and not annoy others. If you can dig out something to entertain them, fine, but I don’t see it as your job to do so. Finally, I would expect you to reseat either the family or the complaining passengers. The complaining passengers should be moved to first class (if there’s room), or to a different section of business class (if your planes are so configured). If there’s no room in first, and no other seating alternatives that are acceptable to the complaining passengers, move the family into coach, hopefully somewhere where they won’t annoy other coach passengers. I am always appreciative when flight crew do their best to resolve a situation. When, however, they simply ignore it or, worse, cater to disruptive brats and their parents at the expensive of other pax who aren’t interfering with anyone, I reconsider my choice of airlines. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Jaycey
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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->If the parents are doing their best to control their children then I’m not >sure that there is much you can do. Of course, the problem would not be so >bad if the airlines would introduce child-free sections on long-haul >flights. At least some airlines offer very little discount for children in >business/first class to discourage children. > Interesting. Which airlines have a different discounting policy? > Dave
I’ve noticed that the discounted first and business class fares on Malaysia and Singapore are almost the same for children as for adults; at least they are on the London to Sydney route through the agent I use. Martin
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course, the problem would not be so > bad if the airlines would introduce child-free sections on long-haul > flights. > Martin
Some airlines used to offer a ‘quiet zone’ in the upper cabin of 747’s. Haven’t seen it in a while but it was very nice. It is very seldom that I am annoyed by children on a flight. For the most part, they are good little travelers. Yes, if they are sick, or tired, or bored, they may cry. In some cases, they act like aisle monkeys, but this is the parents’ fault. I have seen FA’s correct this problem. Far more adult buttholes, bin hogs and sows, whiners, and near drunks in the adult set.
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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I have a question….. I just returned from Venice as a working > crew member and we had a family in business class with three small > children (ages around 4, 6 and 8…). These kids were very loud, > passengers seated near them became VERY upset at the "disruption" of > their flight…… They approached me and let it be known that they > had paid over $5000 for their ticket and they did not feel that they > should be "subjected" to such ruckus….. > So my question is——-you, as the travelling public, what is it that > Granted, it’s a very fine line…….but what, if anything, do you > feel that the flight crew is "obligated" to do…..? (by the way, the > flight was completely full so "relocation" was not an option…..) > Jaycey
If the parents are doing their best to control their children then I’m not sure that there is much you can do. Of course, the problem would not be so bad if the airlines would introduce child-free sections on long-haul flights. At least some airlines offer very little discount for children in business/first class to discourage children. Martin
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I have a question….. I just returned from Venice as a working crew member and we had a family in business class with three small children (ages around 4, 6 and 8…). These kids were very loud, passengers seated near them became VERY upset at the "disruption" of their flight…… They approached me and let it be known that they had paid over $5000 for their ticket and they did not feel that they should be "subjected" to such ruckus….. So my question is——-you, as the travelling public, what is it that Granted, it’s a very fine line…….but what, if anything, do you feel that the flight crew is "obligated" to do…..? (by the way, the flight was completely full so "relocation" was not an option…..) Jaycey
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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I have a question….. I just returned from Venice as a working > crew member and we had a family in business class with three small > children (ages around 4, 6 and 8…). These kids were very loud, > passengers seated near them became VERY upset at the "disruption" of > their flight…… They approached me and let it be known that they > had paid over $5000 for their ticket and they did not feel that they > should be "subjected" to such ruckus….. > So my question is——-you, as the travelling public, what is it that > Granted, it’s a very fine line…….but what, if anything, do you > feel that the flight crew is "obligated" to do…..? (by the way, the > flight was completely full so "relocation" was not an option…..) > Jaycey
Certainly, the other passengers might be angry under these circumstances. But there is nothing you can do, practically. What would you do if an adult persisted in loud and obnoxious behavior? Can you hold a child to a higher standard? If you try to reason with the parents, you might well precipitate anger and complaint and STILL not obtain the goal of quieting the children. It is a no-win situation.
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> I have a question….. I just returned from Venice as a working > crew member and we had a family in business class with three small > children (ages around 4, 6 and 8…). These kids were very loud, > passengers seated near them became VERY upset at the "disruption" of > their flight…… They approached me and let it be known that they > had paid over $5000 for their ticket and they did not feel that they > should be "subjected" to such ruckus….. > So my question is——-you, as the travelling public, what is it that > Granted, it’s a very fine line…….but what, if anything, do you > feel that the flight crew is "obligated" to do…..? (by the way, the > flight was completely full so "relocation" was not an option…..)
Well, obviously, the FA should tell the parents to restrain their children, or face the consequences when they land. And if the parents refuse to comply, then the pilot should land, pull the aircraft over to the side of the runway, tell the offending children and lackadaisical parents that they’ll have to settle their differences before the aircraft moves another inch. Then the crew and passengers should just sit there in the aircraft, on the side of the runway, while they settle their differences. Judge Judy could be brought in as a legal consultant, even arbitrator. If she can’t make it, then call that guy, who’s that guy who’s the judge on "Moral Court"? He’s good. Geez, I can’t believe I just wrote that, and right after we just a long discussion on inappropriately sarcastic replies. Seriously, there’s nothing you can do in that circumstance. It’s just one of the temporary and occasional pitfalls of travel. Shoot, you never screamed when you were a kid?
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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >I have a question….. I just returned from Venice as a working >crew member and we had a family in business class with three small >children (ages around 4, 6 and 8…). These kids were very loud, >passengers seated near them became VERY upset at the "disruption" of >their flight…… They approached me and let it be known that they >had paid over $5000 for their ticket and they did not feel that they >should be "subjected" to such ruckus….. >So my question is——-you, as the travelling public, what is it that >Granted, it’s a very fine line…….but what, if anything, do you >feel that the flight crew is "obligated" to do…..? (by the way, the >flight was completely full so "relocation" was not an option…..)
I would say that, if you thought there was something the parents could do to improve the situation, you might ask them to attend to it; if they already seem to be appropriately upset and embarrassed and are TRYING to keep things quiet, then just offer the adult whiners earplugs. (I guess you can’t tell them ‘Deal with it’, which is what they really should be told. 
) As for their $5000, ask them to show you where their contract of carriage assures them a silent child-free flight. (Yeah, I realize you probably can’t say that — but perhaps there’s a more polite way of reminding them what it is exactly that they’ve paid for.)
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>So my question is——-you, as the travelling public, what is it that >Granted, it’s a very fine line…….but what, if anything, do you >feel that the flight crew is "obligated" to do…..? (by the way, the >flight was completely full so "relocation" was not an option…..) >Jaycey
What would I expect? I wouldn’t expect you to be able to do anything beyond bringing it to the parents attention that their children were causing a disruption. (But then, I forgot just that quickly that we’re talking about small children, not necessarily "Devil Kids"). Depending on the cooperation (of lack of it) on the part of the parents I would at least expect you get a supervisor involved (especially if they really are "Devil Kids"). That would take the heat off of you, it would show that you mean business and may even resolve the problem. That would show me that you cared enough about me not being disturbed. Since the discomfort would only be as long as the flight anyway, it would just be ‘x’ hours from my life a little less than comfortable. It just depends. You just do the best job you can… that’s what I expect.
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Do you have any idea of the real costs of a diversion? They are very expensive, especially if you are landing somewhere that the airline doesn’t normally fly. It is not a quick, get out and go fly again. In fact, there is an airport in Maine that runs full time businesses based on dealing with planes making unanticipated landings with passenger disruption issues. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Well, obviously, the FA should tell the parents to restrain their children, > or face the consequences when they land. And if the parents refuse to > comply, then the pilot should land, pull the aircraft over to the side of > the runway, tell the offending children and lackadaisical parents that > they’ll have to settle their differences before the aircraft moves another > inch. Then the crew and passengers should just sit there in the aircraft, > on the side of the runway, while they settle their differences. Judge > Judy could be brought in as a legal consultant, even arbitrator. If she > can’t make it, then call that guy, who’s that guy who’s the judge on "Moral > Court"? He’s good. > Geez, I can’t believe I just wrote that, and right after we just a long > discussion on inappropriately sarcastic replies. Seriously, there’s > nothing you can do in that circumstance. It’s just one of the temporary > and occasional pitfalls of travel. Shoot, you never screamed when you > were a kid?
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>If they were adults, are there not actions a crew can take if a >passenger is causing a disruption? If there are, is there anything >that says that the same does not apply to children?
Diversions are usually made when there are serious issues involved. By ’serious’, I mean actual harm to others or uncontrollability that may lead to an extremely serious incident such as a plane crashing or majorly injured people. As such, I doubt a plane would divert unless there was a child with a sharp knife in his/her hand, threatening to stab the nearest person who doesn’t immediately provide him/her with a Nintendo GameBoy Advance with the latest Pokemon game. In other words, diversions aren’t made on basis of simple ‘quality of life’ issues such as noise. I’m sure they wouldn’t divert if I suddenly discovered that my seat broke, mid-flight. 
Besides… much of the legal system is set up around the model that children are children — not yet adults, and not yet grown up or fully responsible for their own actions. As such, you cannot generally really compare the two models equally. There are always exceptions to the rule. With that said, screaming folks are much more likely to be younger kids than anyone 13-and-older. I’m sorry, but I don’t really particularly have a lot of sympathy oozing out of me for a business or first class passenger who gets inconvenienced due to a little noise. It’s the same thing that also exists in economy class. The ticket, after all, does not guarantee them either a child-free environment or a noise-free environment. I guess the passengers who paid a lot of their own money and has some kind of status could probably write to complain, and maybe get a coupon for an hundred (or two) dollars off the next flight on that airline. One could quit an airline’s FF program over that, but that’d be the ultimate in absurdity since one could very well eventually run into the exact same situation on some other airline. -Dan
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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > I have a question….. I just returned from Venice as a working > crew member and we had a family in business class with three small > children (ages around 4, 6 and 8…). These kids were very loud, > passengers seated near them became VERY upset at the "disruption" of > their flight…… They approached me and let it be known that they > had paid over $5000 for their ticket and they did not feel that they > should be "subjected" to such ruckus….. > So my question is——-you, as the travelling public, what is it that > Granted, it’s a very fine line…….but what, if anything, do you > feel that the flight crew is "obligated" to do…..? (by the way, the > flight was completely full so "relocation" was not an option…..) > Jaycey
If I were the pax, I would document the event with the names of the FA’s and nicely tell them that you would like to redress these issues later with the appropriate department and hopefully they will verify your plight if asked. If the complaint is legitimate the airline will sometimes offer some compensation, upgrade, free flight, etc.