Business History Books » Business Consultant » A public complaint to Sabena
A public complaint to Sabena
Question:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Just a reminder that not every pax flying to a certain destination > (Africa, Asia, N.A.) necessarily fits within whatever category someone > wishes to try to classify them in. When we worked another carriers Intl > flights to London, many times we had the same problems with missionaries > flying to Nigeria and other Central African countries. They would bring > out 5 or 6 huge boxes and play the I dont want to pay game. Needless to > say after about 2 times playing this game, everyone at checkin knew when > they were flying and the manager was handy to "help" them while we > continued checkin. I think this is more along the lines of what Andrew > is upset about. If there is a constant problem of any nature (and it > appears that excess baggage is the specific one he is upset about no > matter WHAT destination the pax happen to be flying to) then the local > manager should be there to "help" these pax and if THEY miss the flight > while they are disagreeing on paying, then too bad. They had the option > of paying and going and chose not to pay. Most, if not all, pax > traveling with huge excess items know they are going to have to pay. > Many will play the "I dont have any money" game until you just tell them > "fine take out what you want to go and leave the rest here." Suddenly > they find all kinds of money to pay. It appears that this is what is > happening, but they dont decide to pay until it delays the rest of the > flight. It would appear that they need to better enforce the cutoff for > checkin (30 mins/1hour, whatever is needed) in order to get the flight > out on time. If they cant decide to pay by then, then they’ll be early > enough for tomorrows flight.
Thanks for stating so clearly what I’ve been struggling to explain for the last week! Andy
Response:
appear as if it was written: > Looking at the options, you can go through Brussels on Virgin Express or > KLM-uk, connecting to Crossair (as you observe), or you can go through > Amsterdam on KLM-uk, connecting to Crossair again, but arriving 35 minutes > earlier than the Brussels flight, even though it leaves only 25 minutes > earlier. But there are two non-stop flights from LHR that beat the Crossair > arrival time, leaving 90 minutes or so later. >We’re veering off the point here. The issue is not which flights I ought to >use and how I should arrange my private life to suit Sabena’s commercial >goals. It is how Sabena have, despite their assurances, failed to do anything >about the prime cause of delays on flight SN690.
Oh, I understand the fact that I was veering. I was interested in your post as a yardstick of how well the London airport system was operating… >* LHR adds three hours to my journey; it’s OK for a Sunday evening flight (if >I don’t mind leaving home at 14:30) but impractical for early-mornings. BTW, >I admit that I hate LHR with a passion so it’s my last choice out of four >possible airports for this and a variety of other reasons. > So, as a serious question: how long does it take to get from the NE of > London to LHR via the new Paddington express? How far off are you from > being able to hop to Liverpool St., round to Paddington, check in there, and > so to LHR? >Addressed in the last point. I get a maximum of 36 hours (usually 24) at home >over the weekend and I have to minimise the time spent home-to-checkin.
That was the issue I was trying to explore. Obviously, *any* nonstop flight is better than a connection(!), so where *I* was coming from was if LCY was an option for you, how was the Heathrow Express working out, did the check-in at Paddington thing work, etc. Since the non-stops left LHR 85 minutes later than the alleged connection via BRU, did that make *Paddington* an alternative origin "airport"? I.e. Paddington-LHR-BSL? Obviously, your hassles theoretically evaporate with LX891 from LCY, but my post was more about Heathrow’s access than anything else… Malc.
Response:
> Uh, Sabena is making a LOT more money from their Lagos-bound pax > than from the likes of you. If they have to give up one of them, > I don’t think it’ll be the Lagos pax.
I made that exact point to Sabena six months ago. Clearly the long-haul fares plus excess baggage charges are a strong incentive for doing zilch. > It’s your apparent failure > to realize this that does indeed give your diatribe a racist > tinge, since you brought it up.
No failure on my part, as mentioned above. As for risking a proscribed "-ism", well sometimes we just have to call it as it is. LCY groundstaff have confirmed that the holders of one specific nationality’s passports are responsible for the problem on Mondays, Wednesday and Fridays which, by a starting coincidence, is when SN690 connects to the Lagos flight. Spooky, Huh? 
) > Good luck.
Thanks Ellen, and thanks also for having taken so much time over a post that has no direct affect on you personally. Roger, over and out. Andy.
Response:
<snip> > It would appear that they need to better enforce the cutoff for >checkin (30 mins/1hour, whatever is needed) in order to get the flight >out on time. If they cant decide to pay by then, then they’ll be early >enough for tomorrows flight.
I would imagine that, if Sabena did this often enough to have any effect, the effect would be that Lagos-bound pax would find another route and airline.
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > <snip> >> You seem to be very much occupied with why those flights are delayed >> instead of simply accepting that they are often if not usually >> delayed and making other arrangements. That’s what I don’t understand. >Acts of God and "normal" ATC delays are a fact of life to regular flyers. No >dissent there. However, the prime cause of delays to this flight is entirely >avoidable. At the risk of provoking shouts of "racist", the flights are >usually delayed because we are awaiting the boarding of Nigerians connecting >with Sabena’s Lagos service who have been arguing at check-in that they >should be allowed to check in more than their 20-kilo baggage allowance >(frequently 40 kilos over!!) without paying excess-baggage charges. >They play the same game at London Heathrow. The Serviceair ground-staff are >fed up with it, the other passengers are fed up with it, the flight crew make >coded but sarcastic remarks about "delayed due to late boarding of certain >passengers". In February Sabena assured me that they were doing everything >they could to improve the situation. Nothing has happened. We board, the >delay is announced and there are load groans from all parts of the aircraft. >I’m making that complaint public. If they choose to break the terms of their >booking then they should risk being thrown off of the flight. The other >passengers shouldn’t suffer as a result of their behaviour. I hope that’s not >unreasonable. > Uh, Sabena is making a LOT more money from their Lagos-bound pax > than from the likes of you. If they have to give up one of them, > I don’t think it’ll be the Lagos pax. It’s your apparent failure > to realize this that does indeed give your diatribe a racist > tinge, since you brought it up. > Good luck.
Just a reminder that not every pax flying to a certain destination (Africa, Asia, N.A.) necessarily fits within whatever category someone wishes to try to classify them in. When we worked another carriers Intl flights to London, many times we had the same problems with missionaries flying to Nigeria and other Central African countries. They would bring out 5 or 6 huge boxes and play the I dont want to pay game. Needless to say after about 2 times playing this game, everyone at checkin knew when they were flying and the manager was handy to "help" them while we continued checkin. I think this is more along the lines of what Andrew is upset about. If there is a constant problem of any nature (and it appears that excess baggage is the specific one he is upset about no matter WHAT destination the pax happen to be flying to) then the local manager should be there to "help" these pax and if THEY miss the flight while they are disagreeing on paying, then too bad. They had the option of paying and going and chose not to pay. Most, if not all, pax traveling with huge excess items know they are going to have to pay. Many will play the "I dont have any money" game until you just tell them "fine take out what you want to go and leave the rest here." Suddenly they find all kinds of money to pay. It appears that this is what is happening, but they dont decide to pay until it delays the rest of the flight. It would appear that they need to better enforce the cutoff for checkin (30 mins/1hour, whatever is needed) in order to get the flight out on time. If they cant decide to pay by then, then they’ll be early enough for tomorrows flight.
Response:
<snip> – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> You seem to be very much occupied with why those flights are delayed > instead of simply accepting that they are often if not usually > delayed and making other arrangements. That’s what I don’t understand. >Acts of God and "normal" ATC delays are a fact of life to regular flyers. No >dissent there. However, the prime cause of delays to this flight is entirely >avoidable. At the risk of provoking shouts of "racist", the flights are >usually delayed because we are awaiting the boarding of Nigerians connecting >with Sabena’s Lagos service who have been arguing at check-in that they >should be allowed to check in more than their 20-kilo baggage allowance >(frequently 40 kilos over!!) without paying excess-baggage charges. >They play the same game at London Heathrow. The Serviceair ground-staff are >fed up with it, the other passengers are fed up with it, the flight crew make >coded but sarcastic remarks about "delayed due to late boarding of certain >passengers". In February Sabena assured me that they were doing everything >they could to improve the situation. Nothing has happened. We board, the >delay is announced and there are load groans from all parts of the aircraft. >I’m making that complaint public. If they choose to break the terms of their >booking then they should risk being thrown off of the flight. The other >passengers shouldn’t suffer as a result of their behaviour. I hope that’s not >unreasonable.
Uh, Sabena is making a LOT more money from their Lagos-bound pax than from the likes of you. If they have to give up one of them, I don’t think it’ll be the Lagos pax. It’s your apparent failure to realize this that does indeed give your diatribe a racist tinge, since you brought it up. Good luck.
Response:
>Sabena delays When you say you missed your connection, is it because of your originating fligjt took off late. If it was not to weather, you _might_ have a case. But I have been delayed by weather god knows how many times (even missing a connecting flight to SVO), but I just took it in stride. Over here in the US, an "on-time" arrival and departure is considered within 15 minutes of the posted time. Does anyone know what is considered a European on-time arrival/departure-do they adhere to the 15-minute rule as we do here in the US? The last time I flew Sabena was in 1988 (JFK-BRU-JFK) and the service was atrocious. But several months ago, someone else posted here that the service has improved substansially in the past several years. Maryanne.
Response:
> >Sabena delays > When you say you missed your connection, is it because of your > originating fligjt took off late. If it was not to weather, you _might_ > have a case. But I have been delayed by weather god knows how many times > (even missing a connecting flight to SVO), but I just took it in stride.
The first once or twice, so did I (I’m smiling ruefully as I type). I’ve detailed the major reason for the delays in several other posts, so I’d prefer not to bore the pants off the rest of the group by ranting yet again > Over here in the US, an "on-time" arrival and departure is considered > within 15 minutes of the posted time. Does anyone know what is > considered a European on-time arrival/departure-do they adhere to the > 15-minute rule as we do here in the US?
Pretty much the same. In my case I have a 45-minute tunaround on the scheduled times which would normally be OK (the airlines continue to accept my bookings, so they probably think so too). Alas, when it’s late SN690 misses by well over an hour. Bye-bye connection, hello 4-hour wait. > The last time I flew Sabena was in 1988 (JFK-BRU-JFK) and the service > was atrocious. But several months ago, someone else posted here that the > service has improved substansially in the past several years.
I’ve not flown them long-haul. The regional services are OK in general, but nowhere near the quality of Swissair, its major partner. Regards, Andy.
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> >> Gee, after the first miss, I’d have taken an earlier flight… > >… the earlier flight was the previous evening > And so then I would have gone the previous evening. Were you just > trying to count up how many times you could miss your connection? >Ellen, my apologies if my response sounds a little agressive but it’s not >always easy to appear reasonable in print. Honestly, I’m at the end of my >tether with a situation in which I have no practical alternatives at present. >Whatever, you seem to be missing the point. I’m warning fellow air-travellers >of a potentially damaging circumstance, not asking for sympathy.
Oh, I thought you’d written a letter to Sabena. >To clarify :- >* I have a choice of three airports from which to make a connection. * All >three are served by either Sabena or Virgin Express. * The record of >punctuality from all three airports with both airlines is dreadful. * Sabena >continue to accept my booking despite my numerous complaints and their empty >assurances that "things will improve". * They still continue to allow flights >to be delayed by passengers trying deliberately to break their baggage >limits. This is my prime complaint.
You seem to be very much occupied with why those flights are delayed instead of simply accepting that they are often if not usually delayed and making other arrangements. That’s what I don’t understand. If I have to fly from the East Coast to the West Coast of the US in mid-winter, I try to avoid connecting in Chicago since I know the chances of weather-related delays are very high, in spite of the fact that the timetable doesn’t mention delays and the airlines would happily sell me a ticket connecting in Chicago. Maybe you should simply forget WHY (you think) the flights are delayed and deal with the probabilities, whatever the cause. >You really are homing in on an irrelevancy. Sabena continue to take my money >with an assurance that I will make the connection; until the direct LCY-BSL >flight begins operation next month I simply have no alternative. >You know no more of my personal circumstances than I know of yours and I >wouldn’t presume to offer criticism or advice to you on that basis. >Nonetheless I’ll explain that taking the previous evening’s flight would >leave me with 12 hours between getting home from the previous week and >leaving for the next. With check-in time and travelling time to and from the >airports this reduces to 6 hours at home. If I can trust Sabena’s timetable I >can get an extra day with my family. Are asking me to accept that airline >timetables are works of fiction?
Surely you’d manage if that morning flight didn’t exist, right? I’m not saying airline timetables are works of fiction — but it’s a simple fact that they do not list things like delays, which have their own probabilities. Ignoring those probabilities and insisting that the timetable is the only relevant input for your decision-making is actually more like living in a fictional world than taking all the available information into account would be. You are dealing with ‘life as it should be’ as opposed to ‘life as it is’, to paraphrase certain 17th century French tragedians. >I’m not "trying to count up how many times you could miss your connection" – >I’ve been able to count the occasions because for accounting purposes I keep >a meticulous record of my travel (over 200 flight-segments per annum). When I >need ammunition against cynical behaviour this comes in very handy.
All the more reason for you to be aware of the probability of a delay. >Once again I have to make the point to the group that my post was aimed at >warning potential passengers on this route that its record of punctuality is >dreadful. For occasional passengers this might not be of any consequence but >frequent business travellers might want to take note.
I have no problem with that. Even occasional pax wouldn’t want to miss a connection, for sure. 
Response:
> >Whatever, you seem to be missing the point. I’m warning fellow air-travellers >of a potentially damaging circumstance, not asking for sympathy. > Oh, I thought you’d written a letter to Sabena.
Erm, I did! (cc. Usenet). Still awaiting a reply. > You seem to be very much occupied with why those flights are delayed > instead of simply accepting that they are often if not usually > delayed and making other arrangements. That’s what I don’t understand.
Acts of God and "normal" ATC delays are a fact of life to regular flyers. No dissent there. However, the prime cause of delays to this flight is entirely avoidable. At the risk of provoking shouts of "racist", the flights are usually delayed because we are awaiting the boarding of Nigerians connecting with Sabena’s Lagos service who have been arguing at check-in that they should be allowed to check in more than their 20-kilo baggage allowance (frequently 40 kilos over!!) without paying excess-baggage charges. They play the same game at London Heathrow. The Serviceair ground-staff are fed up with it, the other passengers are fed up with it, the flight crew make coded but sarcastic remarks about "delayed due to late boarding of certain passengers". In February Sabena assured me that they were doing everything they could to improve the situation. Nothing has happened. We board, the delay is announced and there are load groans from all parts of the aircraft. I’m making that complaint public. If they choose to break the terms of their booking then they should risk being thrown off of the flight. The other passengers shouldn’t suffer as a result of their behaviour. I hope that’s not unreasonable. > If I have to fly from the East Coast to the West Coast of the US > in mid-winter, I try to avoid connecting in Chicago since I know the > chances of weather-related delays are very high, in spite of the > fact that the timetable doesn’t mention delays and the airlines would > happily sell me a ticket connecting in Chicago. Maybe you should > simply forget WHY (you think) the flights are delayed and deal with > the probabilities, whatever the cause.
For years, the British have suffered in silence. "Don’t make a fuss". Shrug your shoulders and roll over & play dead. Let them get away with it. Not any more, pal – we’ve been taught how to get results by our transatlantic cousins > Surely you’d manage if that morning flight didn’t exist, right?
I’d have refused the contract with my client. > You are dealing with > ‘life as it should be’ as opposed to ‘life as it is’, to paraphrase > certain 17th century French tragedians.
Are you now suggesting that large commercial concerns should be allowed get put-on here! >I’m not "trying to count up how many times you could miss your connection" – >I’ve been able to count the occasions because for accounting purposes I keep >a meticulous record of my travel (over 200 flight-segments per annum). When I >need ammunition against cynical behaviour this comes in very handy. > All the more reason for you to be aware of the probability of a delay.
Aware of it??? I’ve been trying to do something about it since February!! Ellen, I don’t know about you, but I’m running out of steam on this one. If my posts have been misunderstood then that’s too bad. I did after all prefix the original post with a "don’t-bother-if" type warning. But now, I really must get back to earning a living! Best regards, Andy.
Response:
> Why don’t you just avoid the entire problem at LCY and take the Eurostart to > Brussels and board the flight there? There are direct trains from Brussels Midi > to the airport about every 10 minutes, and the train ride from London to > Brussels isn’t that long.
Standard response, I’m afraid – I’m trying to get Sabena to fulfill their assurances to me over the last six months that they’ll do something about the wholly avoidable delays. I appreciate the suggested alternative (not a bad one, as it happens – thanks!) but as I get a direct flight LCY-BSL from the end of October, this mess will be behind me. Restatement of original purpose of post – Don’t try to connect from SN690 unless you’re planning a 4-hour stopover. Regards, Andy.
Response:
In article > Looking at the options, you can go through Brussels on Virgin Express or > KLM-uk, connecting to Crossair (as you observe), or you can go through > Amsterdam on KLM-uk, connecting to Crossair again, but arriving 35 minutes > earlier than the Brussels flight, even though it leaves only 25 minutes > earlier. But there are two non-stop flights from LHR that beat the Crossair > arrival time, leaving 90 minutes or so later.
Hi Malc, We’re veering off the point here. The issue is not which flights I ought to use and how I should arrange my private life to suit Sabena’s commercial goals. It is how Sabena have, despite their assurances, failed to do anything about the prime cause of delays on flight SN690. However, I appreciate that you’ve taken the time to research the other flights on my behalf (I’ve done them all over the last 14 months plus all of the Paris options) and it’d be rude of me not to respond, so – quick summary of my experiences … * KLM-uk (the holiday airline masquerading as a scheduled service) STN-BRU was no more reliable than Sabena’s LCY service. The Fokker-50s that they still use are worse at handling Brussels’ weather than the Dash-8s. * Virgin Express STN-BRU failed to make my connection on 3 out of 4 attempts. * KLM-uk STN-AMS missed the Crossair AMS-BSL service twice in two flights. The difference in journey times is due to the Amsterdam flight being served by Fokker-100s or RJ-100s and the Crossair flight using SAAB-2000s, both of which are significantly faster than Fokker-50s/Dash-8s/SAAB-340s * LHR adds three hours to my journey; it’s OK for a Sunday evening flight (if I don’t mind leaving home at 14:30) but impractical for early-mornings. BTW, I admit that I hate LHR with a passion so it’s my last choice out of four possible airports for this and a variety of other reasons. > So, as a serious question: how long does it take to get from the NE of > London to LHR via the new Paddington express? How far off are you from > being able to hop to Liverpool St., round to Paddington, check in there, and > so to LHR?
Addressed in the last point. I get a maximum of 36 hours (usually 24) at home over the weekend and I have to minimise the time spent home-to-checkin. > Malc.
To reiterate, the purpose of the original post was "Watch out if you’re intending to try to connect from SN690". After numerous complaints, Sabena *still* persist in allowing flights to be delayed on the pan awaiting passengers arguing the toss (with no justification) over excess baggage. My collegue who takes the LHR flight suffers precisely the same problems with Lagos-bound passengers connecting via Zurich. It’s not an isolated issue. I could just grit my teeth and say nothing but that would be a victory for Sabena. One Guy vs. An Airline is a pretty uneven fight, but … ) Regards, Andy
Response:
Why don’t you just avoid the entire problem at LCY and take the Eurostart to Brussels and board the flight there? There are direct trains from Brussels Midi to the airport about every 10 minutes, and the train ride from London to Brussels isn’t that long. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> >> Gee, after the first miss, I’d have taken an earlier flight… > >… the earlier flight was the previous evening > And so then I would have gone the previous evening. Were you just > trying to count up how many times you could miss your connection? > Ellen, my apologies if my response sounds a little agressive but it’s not > always easy to appear reasonable in print. Honestly, I’m at the end of my > tether with a situation in which I have no practical alternatives at present. > Whatever, you seem to be missing the point. I’m warning fellow air-travellers > of a potentially damaging circumstance, not asking for sympathy. > To clarify :- > * I have a choice of three airports from which to make a connection. * All > three are served by either Sabena or Virgin Express. * The record of > punctuality from all three airports with both airlines is dreadful. * Sabena > continue to accept my booking despite my numerous complaints and their empty > assurances that "things will improve". * They still continue to allow flights > to be delayed by passengers trying deliberately to break their baggage > limits. This is my prime complaint. > You really are homing in on an irrelevancy. Sabena continue to take my money > with an assurance that I will make the connection; until the direct LCY-BSL > flight begins operation next month I simply have no alternative. > You know no more of my personal circumstances than I know of yours and I > wouldn’t presume to offer criticism or advice to you on that basis. > Nonetheless I’ll explain that taking the previous evening’s flight would > leave me with 12 hours between getting home from the previous week and > leaving for the next. With check-in time and travelling time to and from the > airports this reduces to 6 hours at home. If I can trust Sabena’s timetable I > can get an extra day with my family. Are asking me to accept that airline > timetables are works of fiction? > I’m not "trying to count up how many times you could miss your connection" – > I’ve been able to count the occasions because for accounting purposes I keep > a meticulous record of my travel (over 200 flight-segments per annum). When I > need ammunition against cynical behaviour this comes in very handy. > Once again I have to make the point to the group that my post was aimed at > warning potential passengers on this route that its record of punctuality is > dreadful. For occasional passengers this might not be of any consequence but > frequent business travellers might want to take note. > Best regards, > Andy
Response:
> >> Gee, after the first miss, I’d have taken an earlier flight… >… the earlier flight was the previous evening > And so then I would have gone the previous evening. Were you just > trying to count up how many times you could miss your connection?
Ellen, my apologies if my response sounds a little agressive but it’s not always easy to appear reasonable in print. Honestly, I’m at the end of my tether with a situation in which I have no practical alternatives at present. Whatever, you seem to be missing the point. I’m warning fellow air-travellers of a potentially damaging circumstance, not asking for sympathy. To clarify :- * I have a choice of three airports from which to make a connection. * All three are served by either Sabena or Virgin Express. * The record of punctuality from all three airports with both airlines is dreadful. * Sabena continue to accept my booking despite my numerous complaints and their empty assurances that "things will improve". * They still continue to allow flights to be delayed by passengers trying deliberately to break their baggage limits. This is my prime complaint. You really are homing in on an irrelevancy. Sabena continue to take my money with an assurance that I will make the connection; until the direct LCY-BSL flight begins operation next month I simply have no alternative. You know no more of my personal circumstances than I know of yours and I wouldn’t presume to offer criticism or advice to you on that basis. Nonetheless I’ll explain that taking the previous evening’s flight would leave me with 12 hours between getting home from the previous week and leaving for the next. With check-in time and travelling time to and from the airports this reduces to 6 hours at home. If I can trust Sabena’s timetable I can get an extra day with my family. Are asking me to accept that airline timetables are works of fiction? I’m not "trying to count up how many times you could miss your connection" – I’ve been able to count the occasions because for accounting purposes I keep a meticulous record of my travel (over 200 flight-segments per annum). When I need ammunition against cynical behaviour this comes in very handy. Once again I have to make the point to the group that my post was aimed at warning potential passengers on this route that its record of punctuality is dreadful. For occasional passengers this might not be of any consequence but frequent business travellers might want to take note. Best regards, Andy
Response:
appear as if it was written: > As a business person, it is common sence to expect to be delayed and make > arrangements to arrive at your destination well enough in advance. The > airline didn’t lose you GBP2,000, you lost it yourself. After the 1st, 2nd, > or even 3rd missed connection it should have clicked in to plan to be there > earlier than work requires. >No other options open until Oct 26 when Crossair run a direct LCY-BSL >service. Meanwhile it’s this or Stansted with Virgin Express and KLM-uk >leading the race to miss their arrival targets. "Earlier than work requires" >would entail leaving London on Sunday 12 hours after my return from the >previous week. Not even I could turn around in that time. Is it unreasonable >to expect a better than 40% success-rate in making a connection?
Looking at the options, you can go through Brussels on Virgin Express or KLM-uk, connecting to Crossair (as you observe), or you can go through Amsterdam on KLM-uk, connecting to Crossair again, but arriving 35 minutes earlier than the Brussels flight, even though it leaves only 25 minutes earlier. But there are two non-stop flights from LHR that beat the Crossair arrival time, leaving 90 minutes or so later. So, as a serious question: how long does it take to get from the NE of London to LHR via the new Paddington express? How far off are you from being able to hop to Liverpool St., round to Paddington, check in there, and so to LHR? Malc.
Response:
> >If you are correct in quoting that figure (and you are clearly as >authoritative as you are anonymous), then class action to persue thousands of >claims would have more chance of success than an individual. My question was >born of intense frustration and, yes, more rhetorical than serious. >> Money talks, take your business to another airline. >October 26th can’t come fast enough. Thank you for your very helpful and >not-at-all pompous response. > Sorry if I came across as arrogant (its been one of those days).
Yep, me too! > Sabena has > alot of complaints against it, but I’m sure if you read the fine print you’ll > find that they are not responsible for "missed opportunities, income or > enjoyment" due to delays.
True. But how much longer can commercial concerns continue to hide behind disclaimers such as this? Whilst I don’t admire the way in which litigation has become the US National Pastime, it is forcing more and more businesses to accept that they have responsibilities to their client once they’ve cashed the cheque. > I’m glad an alternative airline is offering competition soon … it will give > Sabena the incentive to improve as clearly they will lose customers, such as > yourself.
And there’s the irony. The competition is Crossair (my personal favourite carrier, although that could provoke a lot of dissent in the group); the connection that Sabena have failed 6 out of 10 times to make is with a Crossair flight which is also a Sabena code-share. Can’t help smiling. > For those who watched the PBS British documentary "Airport", they got a first > hand look at Sabena customer service/relations difficulties.
Having made several (in my jaundiced eyes, justified) complaints to Sabena this year, I have to say that I sympathise with Customer Services in just about any organisation. These people aren’t responsible for the problems but they stand in the front-line taking other’s flak. As an aside, I recently had a ten-minute heart-to-heart with the Sabena Ticketing Manager at Brussels (charming guy) concerning the abortion that was the Virgin-Express/Sabena codeshare from Stansted to Brussels. At one point I found myself echoing the line from Fawlty Towers – "Aren’t *I* supposed to be complaining to *him* ?" Regards, Andy.
Response:
> Fog is an act of God, beyond the control of the airline.
I appreciate that of course – it was the incompetence that followed which really rankled. > As a business person, it is common sence to expect to be delayed and make > arrangements to arrive at your destination well enough in advance. The > airline didn’t lose you GBP2,000, you lost it yourself. After the 1st, 2nd, > or even 3rd missed connection it should have clicked in to plan to be there > earlier than work requires.
No other options open until Oct 26 when Crossair run a direct LCY-BSL service. Meanwhile it’s this or Stansted with Virgin Express and KLM-uk leading the race to miss their arrival targets. "Earlier than work requires" would entail leaving London on Sunday 12 hours after my return from the previous week. Not even I could turn around in that time. Is it unreasonable to expect a better than 40% success-rate in making a connection? > Nothing until they start losing customers like yourself to other airlines.
Total concurrence. And just loosing me won’t change their minds either. That’s why I published the complaint – to test the water. >2. Why should I not begin legal proceedings against you to recover my lost >income? > Because it will never make it to court. It is an emty threat used thousands > of times a day. Show me precedence of somebody recovering money from an > airline caused by lost revenue from a missed business engagement. Threatening > legal action does not lend credibility to your letter. It makes you sound > foolish.
If you are correct in quoting that figure (and you are clearly as authoritative as you are anonymous), then class action to persue thousands of claims would have more chance of success than an individual. My question was born of intense frustration and, yes, more rhetorical than serious. > Money talks, take your business to another airline.
October 26th can’t come fast enough. Thank you for your very helpful and not-at-all pompous response. To the rest of the group :- my original post carried the prefix "If you’re not concerned by poor service on Sabena’s LCY-BRU route then you might not want to continue to read this post." Please understand that I didn’t enjoy airing my gripes in public but chose to do so in order to warn potential passengers on this flight of its history and also to stick my head above the parapet. Andy.
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>If you are correct in quoting that figure (and you are clearly as >authoritative as you are anonymous), then class action to persue thousands of >claims would have more chance of success than an individual. My question was >born of intense frustration and, yes, more rhetorical than serious. > Money talks, take your business to another airline. >October 26th can’t come fast enough. Thank you for your very helpful and >not-at-all pompous response.
Sorry if I came across as arrogant (its been one of those days). Sabena has alot of complaints against it, but I’m sure if you read the fine print you’ll find that they are not responsible for "missed opportunities, income or enjoyment" due to delays. I’m glad an alternative airline is offering competition soon … it will give Sabena the incentive to improve as clearly they will lose customers, such as yourself. For those who watched the PBS British documentary "Airport", they got a first hand look at Sabena customer service/relations difficulties.
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>> Gee, after the first miss, I’d have taken an earlier flight… >… the earlier flight was the previous evening
And so then I would have gone the previous evening. Were you just trying to count up how many times you could miss your connection?
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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >This is the text of a complaint emailed to Sabena today. If you’ve had similar >experiences then I’d like to hear from you. >If you’re not concerned by poor service on Sabena’s LCY-BRU route then you >might not want to continue to read this post. If you travel regularly to >Lagos from London then you might not enjoy it either, but that’s too bad. >*** Please forward this EMail to Customer Services *** >After several bad experiences using the Virgin Express / Sabena STN-BRU >service (about which I have already made formal complaints), in August I >returned to SN690 to make my connection with LX803/SN9385 to Basel where I >work as a freelance consultant. >Since August 10th I have used this service on three occasions :- >98-08-10 : SN690 delayed due to missing its ATC slot; the old problem of >passengers in transit to Lagos trying to get as much baggage on board as >possible on an economy ticket. >98-09-14 : SN690 delayed due to missing its ATC slot; Lagos passengers playing >games again. >98-09-21 : SN690 delayed due to missing its ATC slot; following a 1-hour >delay due to fog at BRU, the flight then sat on the pan for a further hour >whilst ground-crew tried to locate a 42nd passenger. There were only 41 >passengers but we missed another slot waiting for someone to admit their >mistake. We landed (according to my watch) at 11:36. >Out of a total of 10 attempts to connect to LX803 since 98-06-22, I have now >missed my connection on a total of 6 occasions. This means that your airline >(or its code-share partner Virgin Express) has a 60% failure rate in >delivering the service for which I have paid a Business-Class fare. I have >also lost over GBP2,000 in consultancy fees in this period.
Gee, after the first miss, I’d have taken an earlier flight…
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I have just one question for you: Why don’t you simply take your business elsewhere? Michael
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>98-09-21 : SN690 delayed due to missing its ATC slot; following a 1-hour >delay due to fog at BRU,
Fog is an act of God, beyond the control of the airline. >Out of a total of 10 attempts to connect to LX803 since 98-06-22, I have now >missed my connection on a total of 6 occasions. This means that your airline >(or its code-share partner Virgin Express) has a 60% failure rate in >delivering the service for which I have paid a Business-Class fare. I have >also lost over GBP2,000 in consultancy fees in this period.
As a business person, it is common sence to expect to be delayed and make arrangements to arrive at your destination well enough in advance. The airline didn’t lose you GBP2,000, you lost it yourself. After the 1st, 2nd, or even 3rd missed connection it should have clicked in to plan to be there earlier than work requires. My final question, if you are unsatisfied with their service, why fly with them? Take your business to an airline that does meet your satisfaction. >1. What are you doing to restore this abysmal service to an acceptable level?
Nothing until they start losing customers like yourself to other airlines. >2. Why should I not begin legal proceedings against you to recover my lost >income?
Because it will never make it to court. It is an emty threat used thousands of times a day. Show me precedence of somebody recovering money from an airline caused by lost revenue from a missed business engagement. Threatening legal action does not lend credibility to your letter. It makes you sound foolish. Money talks, take your business to another airline.
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> Gee, after the first miss, I’d have taken an earlier flight…
… the earlier flight was the previous evening Andy
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> I have just one question for you: Why don’t you simply take your business > elsewhere? > Michael
Michael – simple answer – those are the only flights that get me into the office at the time when my client wants me there. Assuming that they run according to schedule, of course Call me naif if you must, but when I board an aircraft I don’t think it unreasonable to expect it to have a better than 40% chance of arriving on time. Sabena’s promises in response to previous criticism just haven’t materialised. The only other options are Heathrow (3 hour drive plus interminable check-in plus Lagos passengers etc. etc. etc.), Gatwick (worse) or Stansted (KLM-uk & Virgin Express, both of whose punctuality is worse even than Sabena’s). If I could take my business elsewhere, I surely would but no other published route is suitable. So now you know. Apologies for the long-winded response. For anyone who might be interested, Crossair begin a direct service between LCY and Basel from October 26th. Regards, Andy
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This is the text of a complaint emailed to Sabena today. If you’ve had similar experiences then I’d like to hear from you. If you’re not concerned by poor service on Sabena’s LCY-BRU route then you might not want to continue to read this post. If you travel regularly to Lagos from London then you might not enjoy it either, but that’s too bad. *** Please forward this EMail to Customer Services *** After several bad experiences using the Virgin Express / Sabena STN-BRU service (about which I have already made formal complaints), in August I returned to SN690 to make my connection with LX803/SN9385 to Basel where I work as a freelance consultant. Since August 10th I have used this service on three occasions :- 98-08-10 : SN690 delayed due to missing its ATC slot; the old problem of passengers in transit to Lagos trying to get as much baggage on board as possible on an economy ticket. 98-09-14 : SN690 delayed due to missing its ATC slot; Lagos passengers playing games again. 98-09-21 : SN690 delayed due to missing its ATC slot; following a 1-hour delay due to fog at BRU, the flight then sat on the pan for a further hour whilst ground-crew tried to locate a 42nd passenger. There were only 41 passengers but we missed another slot waiting for someone to admit their mistake. We landed (according to my watch) at 11:36. Out of a total of 10 attempts to connect to LX803 since 98-06-22, I have now missed my connection on a total of 6 occasions. This means that your airline (or its code-share partner Virgin Express) has a 60% failure rate in delivering the service for which I have paid a Business-Class fare. I have also lost over GBP2,000 in consultancy fees in this period. On the subject of the Lagos passengers, I have complained about this in the past (notably in February this year) and I have to say that despite the assurances that I received I have seen no improvement – these people are still allowed to delay everyone else including regular business-class passengers like myself. Why is there only one check-in desk at LCY for a flight that usually carries a minimum of 40 passengers of whom at least 25% are deliberately and cynically trying to break the terms of their booking? Are they alone on this planet in not understanding the meaning of a 20-kilo baggage allowance? THIS HAS BEEN GOING ON FOR NEARLY A YEAR. The ground-staff, the flight-crew and all of the other passengers are clearly exasperated by their antics but if I were to be cynical I would have to accept that they bring you substantial extra revenue from their excess-baggage charges (frequently 30 kilos over limit). I also expect that you’d rather delay 40 short-haul passengers than those on a long-haul route. I can see no other explanations for not throwing them off the flight. I know that I am not alone in this protest. My business colleagues who fly from London Heathrow have recently made formal complaints to Crossair over precisely the same behaviour of Lagos-bound passengers who regularly cause delays by playing precisely the same games. You cannot continue to ignore this problem unless you are content to alienate your regular business-class passengers. I now have two simple questions for you to which I demand immediate and satisfactory answers :- 1. What are you doing to restore this abysmal service to an acceptable level? 2. Why should I not begin legal proceedings against you to recover my lost income? This text is also being posted in the internet newsgroups rec.travel.air and alt.travel.uk.air Yours faithfully, Andrew Oxford-Smith TCQM SR 040 733 766